Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[Closed Account 2]

There will be a few countries looking for new managers now. Ourselves, Italy, Scotland, the USA, possibly Wales, NI and Holland.

[samhaydenjr]

Presumably to be kept on, but for how long? What will it take for the trigger to be pulled? Nations League failure, or struggling with Euro qualification?

Failure to get into Euro 2020, now that numbers are expanded would probably be right (Nations League will give an opportunity to experiment a bit). While aspects of the manner of our departure from the World Cup are definitely disappointing, overall getting into a playoff from a group containing four teams with serious qualification aspirations is within the range of "reasonable expectations" for us. I would hope to see some evolution in our system - it's all well and good to have a strong defensive set-up, but we have to be be better at forcing errors from opponents and pouncing on them to create chances - that's the part of Jack Charlton's strategy people who complain about his 'hoofball' plan forget - the point of the long ball was to constantly have teams chasing back to their own goal and then hounding them to force errors (See Houghton '88, Sheedy and Quinn '90).

Another important task for the management team is to blood in the talented youngsters coming through in the coming months, something they've already managed to do reasonably successfully over the past few years, even though qualifying for France actually limited opportunities to do this - so far they've given debuts to Rob Elliot, Shane Duffy, Cyrus Christie, Kevin Long, John Egan, Andy Boyle, Eunan O'Kane, Callum O'Dowda, Conor Hourihane, Harry Arter, Jonny Hayes, Daryl Horgan, Alan Browne, David McGoldrick and Sean Maguire - they need to give some of these players more responsibility as well as bringing in some of the youngsters coming through

[gastric]

Failure to get into Euro 2020, now that numbers are expanded would probably be right (Nations League will give an opportunity to experiment a bit). While aspects of the manner of our departure from the World Cup are definitely disappointing, overall getting into a playoff from a group containing four teams with serious qualification aspirations is within the range of "reasonable expectations" for us. I would hope to see some evolution in our system - it's all well and good to have a strong defensive set-up, but we have to be be better at forcing errors from opponents and pouncing on them to create chances - that's the part of Jack Charlton's strategy people who complain about his 'hoofball' plan forget - the point of the long ball was to constantly have teams chasing back to their own goal and then hounding them to force errors (See Houghton '88, Sheedy and Quinn '90).

Another important task for the management team is to blood in the talented youngsters coming through in the coming months, something they've already managed to do reasonably successfully over the past few years, even though qualifying for France actually limited opportunities to do this - so far they've given debuts to Rob Elliot, Shane Duffy, Cyrus Christie, Kevin Long, John Egan, Andy Boyle, Eunan O'Kane, Callum O'Dowda, Conor Hourihane, Harry Arter, Jonny Hayes, Daryl Horgan, Alan Browne, David McGoldrick and Sean Maguire - they need to give some of these players more responsibility as well as bringing in some of the youngsters coming through

In one way, not qualifying means that in the next year's friendlies in the build up to the WC, younger players can be blooded, experimentation can occur and maybe confidence can be built. There is certainly an opportunity, the question is will it occur.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm torn. Part me thinks better to stick with what we know because a replacement could be worse.

I'd be happy for him to go though. I have no idea, I mean no idea at all, what Keane brings to the table. One of the world's best midfielders must know how a midfield is supposed to work.

Seeing Walford and Guppy there just makes me think of the poor local FAI coaches and development officers who have had to wear a pay cut. Walford can't afford socks I suppose so maybe he's not draining too much FAI money.

Names that need to be in the mix are Stephen Kenny, Lee Carsley, Steven Reid and Keith Andrews. The latter two as back-up.

Chris Hughton would be great but he's the manager after next I think. I have a soft spot for McCarthy too but even rationally I think he could do a job especially if given a free hand now. He has proved himself as a rebuilder before.

Some McCarthy era stalwarts like Carsley, Cunningham, Breen, Kilbane, Kinsella all seem to have something going for them in the brains department, as does Keith Andrews.

[backstothewall]

I've been a big fan of O'Neill but I think It's time to call it a day. I would have given Trap more time but in truth he had lost his authority at Euro 2012 and never recovered it. I don't think O'Neill can come back from this.

A replacement will be tricky though. There is no obvious candidate out there.

We don't have to do anything rash though. We have all the time in the world. Maybe move on O'Neill, Guppy and Walford and ask Roy to take on the Cup of Nations.

I think we should do this without the Denis O'Brien money. It seems to poison the well with certain other journalists and broadcasters.

[IsMiseSean]

6 players under the age of 25 have been capped by O'Neill (maybe 7, not sure about John Egan).

3 of them came this year.

[backstothewall]

Upon reflection that idea in my last post about giving it to Keane is cobblers. He's burnt every bridge he's ever been on. It would be out of the frying pan and into the fire with the press.

Bring back Big Mick.

[brine3]

I think we should do this without the Denis O'Brien money.

You can be sure the Danish manager isn't on Martin O'Neill's salary.

[brine3]

Upon reflection that idea in my last post about giving it to Keane is cobblers. He's burnt every bridge he's ever been on. It would be out of the frying pan and into the fire with the press.

Bring back Big Mick.

I am a die hard Keane fan and back him to the hilt. But I don't think he's management material.

Let's move forward. No Mick. No Roy. No MON.

[backstothewall]

I am a die hard Keane fan and back him to the hilt. But I don't think he's management material.

Let's move forward. No Mick. No Roy. No MON.

I appreciate the sentiment, and i don't necessarily disagree. But who should it be?

[tetsujin1979]

Been wondering about the "win at home, draw away" narrative that's sprung up on the forum in the last few days with regards to the management team, so I've had a look at the numbers.

In competitive games, the home and away results are almost identical. One more game has been drawn away than at home, the same difference between home and away victories, and two games have been lost both at home and away.


O’Neill P W D L
Home 12 6 4 2
Away 12 5 5 2

For me, this doesn't really prove anything. Draw your own conclusions.

(note these numbers don't include the games played at Euro 2016, where all fixtures were played on neutral territory)

[osarusan]

I think it's more that when we are away, the waywe play would suggest a team that has a 'draw away, win at home mentality', but when we're at home, we don't have that mentality.

[OwlsFan]

Been wondering about the "win at home, draw away" narrative that's sprung up on the forum in the last few days with regards to the management team, so I've had a look at the numbers.

In competitive games, the home and away results are almost identical. One more game has been drawn away than at home, the same difference between home and away victories, and two games have been lost both at home and away.


O’Neill P W D L
Home 12 6 4 2
Away 12 5 5 2

For me, this doesn't really prove anything. Draw your own conclusions.

(note these numbers don't include the games played at Euro 2016, where all fixtures were played on neutral territory)

To only lose 2 out of 12 games away from home is excellent. To only win 50% of our home games is not good. That's the only conclusion I can draw but I would imagine that the record under Trap is roughly the same with roughly the same type of football. I'd be interested in Scotland's/Wales'/N Ireland's comparable records during the same period.

[DeLorean]

I'd be interested in Scotland's/Wales'/N Ireland's comparable records during the same period.



Scotland
P
W
D
L


Home
10
6
3
1


Away
10
3
3
4









Wales
P
W
D
L


Home
10
5
4
1


Away
10
5
4
1









N. I.
P
W
D
L


Home
11
7
2
2


Away
11
5
3
3

[tetsujin1979]

To only lose 2 out of 12 games away from home is excellent. To only win 50% of our home games is not good. That's the only conclusion I can draw but I would imagine that the record under Trap is roughly the same with roughly the same type of football. I'd be interested in Scotland's/Wales'/N Ireland's comparable records during the same period.

Added in the home and away competitive records of previous three full time managers (Trapattoni's excludes Euro 2012)


O’Neill P W D L
Home 12 6 4 2
Away 12 5 5 2

Trapattoni P W D L
Home 16 6 6 4
Away 16 8 7 1

Kerr P W D L
Home 8 4 3 1
Away 8 3 4 1

McCarthy P W D L
Home 18 11 6 1
Away 18 7 4 7


Kerr had the same 50% home winning record, but never beat a team ranked higher than 84, Georgia at home in 2003

[Stuttgart88]

I think it was established when he departed that Trap was statistically our best away manager ever but worst home (among managers who have managed more than a nominal number of games). It's worth noting that Trap's one away defeat was his last away game (a virtual dead rubber?) in Austria. Noel King was in charge when we lost the last game I think.

He failed to win 10 out of 16 home games. O'Neill has failed to win 6 out of 12. Not great but not quite as bad. I think it just goes to show how similar they are. I argued recently here that not a huge amount has really changed but I was shot down by one poster saying that under MON we've seen nothing even remotely as bad as the 6-1 home defeat to Germany. Well, we can add Denmark as a comparison now!

[DannyInvincible]

I think it was established when he departed that Trap was statistically our best away manager ever but worst home (among managers who have managed more than a nominal number of games). It's worth noting that Trap's one away defeat was his last away game (a virtual dead rubber?) in Austria. Noel King was in charge when we lost the last game I think.

He failed to win 10 out of 16 home games. O'Neill has failed to win 6 out of 12. Not great but not quite as bad. I think it just goes to show how similar they are. I argued recently here that not a huge amount has really changed but I was shot down by one poster saying that under MON we've seen nothing even remotely as bad as the 6-1 home defeat to Germany. Well, we can add Denmark as a comparison now!

It seems to me as if O'Neill's "style" (if you could say he has one at all) has regressed more and more into being like the totally-risk-averse style of Trap as time has gone on. Why that is, I don't know, but I definitely remember when O'Neill took over, I felt it refreshing or almost a relief just to see our players pressing again after the mind-numbing dullness, lethargy and stagnancy of how Trap sent us out. I do think O'Neill's teams do press a bit more overall than Trap's teams ever did - it was virtually non-existent under Trap - but our use of the tactic seems to have gradually waned, particularly over this campaign. For example, there was none of it against Georgia away and, although our goal against Wales came from Hendrick pressuring Williams and forcing an error, there wasn't a huge deal of pressing otherwise in that game from what I can recall. That's just my perception of O'Neill's evolution (or devolution, even) as Ireland boss, mind; I have no stats, figures or graphs to necessarily back that feeling up.

Interesting interview here, by the way, from after O'Neill was sacked from his role at Sunderland:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv5Gf5h1o_s

Some of the questions - particularly the allegation that he had no "plan B" - could still be applied to O'Neill today in respect of his performance as Ireland manager, but he still gets quite tetchy and defensive with the interviewer when he's challenged. He has an evident difficulty in accepting criticism and in acknowledging possible flaws and weaknesses. As one of the commenters below the video on YouTube suggests, is it possible for him to ever learn or evolve if he can't first acknowledge areas of his management that could do with improvement?

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, we press more now under MON although the high press against Latvia(?) has regressed since. Full backs get further forward too. But the general style and approach is very similar still.

[DeLorean]

This is a very well put together piece from Kieran Shannon I think, no hysteria, just fair - http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/martin-oneill-must-change-or-be-changed-463267.html?&session=oZqtkoirLi0a9Vgqt42zc20LPCK4OUxfBj9M5IHfoB U=

[OwlsFan]

Added in the home and away competitive records of previous three full time managers (Trapattoni's excludes Euro 2012)


O’Neill P W D L
Home 12 6 4 2
Away 12 5 5 2

Trapattoni P W D L
Home 16 6 6 4
Away 16 8 7 1

Kerr P W D L
Home 8 4 3 1
Away 8 3 4 1

McCarthy P W D L
Home 18 11 6 1
Away 18 7 4 7


Kerr had the same 50% home winning record, but never beat a team ranked higher than 84, Georgia at home in 2003

Mick's home record was excellent I see. If only he could have combined the gritty away records of Trap/MON with that we might have been on a par with Germany.

[backstothewall]

Rumours doing the rounds and Martin O'Neill has been installed as an odds on favourite for the Everton job by all major bookies.

It might all be over.

[seanfhear]

Rumours doing the rounds and Martin O'Neill has been installed as an odds on favourite for the Everton job by all major bookies.

It might all be over.I hope he goes . I don’t want to watch what Martin O’ Neill has produced football wise for two more years .

[DannyInvincible]

I think that would be a good way out for all concerned. It means we can freshen things up without O'Neill having to suffer the ignominy of being sacked.

[IsMiseSean]

Rumours doing the rounds and Martin O'Neill has been installed as an odds on favourite for the Everton job by all major bookies.

It might all be over.

Koeman being replaced by O'Neill. Ronald will love that....

[DeLorean]

Would he bring Keane with him, I wonder? If not, Keane would probably be odds on for the Ireland job.

[irishfan86]

If he goes it will be mixed feelings. The final match was a real letdown and I didn’t agree with all of his decisions. But if we’re being honest he didn’t have a great group of players to select from and the absences of Coleman & McCarthy for important matches in this campaign are in my view a larger reason for our failure to qualify than his tactics or team selections. If our aim is to qualify for Euro 2020 I would be confident that O’Neill is our best chance to do that. I think Roy adds some value to the setup but would have reservations of him being the main man given his temperament & unpredictability.

[OwlsFan]

FAI confident that he'll be staying https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2017/1127/923130-fai-confident-of-keeping-oneill-despite-everton-link/

[DeLorean]

A bit harsh on Pulis perhaps but something we can easily relate to - http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/footballers-want-to-show-more-than-how-fit-they-are-463522.html

[DannyInvincible]

'Opinion: Burnley Are Setting The Blueprint For How Ireland Should Play': https://www.balls.ie/football/ireland-burnley-analysis-378472

[DannyInvincible]

Sam Allerdyce has signed an 18-month deal with Everton, so O'Neill won't be going there anyway: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42186164

[IsMiseSean]

Never taught there was anything in the Everton link. I can't see any PL club wanting O'Neill.

Chris Coleman's stock is/was probably higher than O'Neill's and he ended up at Sunderland.

[tetsujin1979]

Never taught there was anything in the Everton link. I can't see any PL club wanting O'Neill.

Chris Coleman's stock is/was probably higher than O'Neill's and he ended up at Sunderland.

Maybe after the Euros, but Coleman only got one point from two games against O'Neill in the qualifiers

[Charlie Darwin]

Never taught there was anything in the Everton link.
Your students are very lucky to have you.

[zero]

o'neill linked with stoke.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/martin-oneill-is-top-priority-as-stoke-city-seek-to-replace-mark-hughes-wz3l3wwr6

[DeLorean]

Gary Rowett, one of the main contenders, is expected to sign a new contract at Derby today to end that speculation.

[Olé Olé]

Rowett has a great chance of a) promotion with Derby or b) getting a PL job in the summer. Stoke are probably at too much of a downward trajectory for a young manager to be taking a career risk like that.

However, they might present the perfect opportunity for someone like O'Neill to get back into club management if there's a few pound to spend given that they're 3 points from going from 20th to 12th (if none of the sides above them won a point).

[Kingdom]

The only thing about the ONeill link that I would find dubious, is that Stoke specifically went away from that style of football by getting rid of Pulis.

[Diggs246]

I know we are all hurt after Denmark, but im I alone in thinking that O'Neill would have a really great chance if getting us to the Euros. Why risk someone who hasnt worked with our squad before.

[DeLorean]

Especially when the 'someone' list is so underwhelming.

[geysir]

I know we are all hurt after Denmark, but im I alone in thinking that O'Neill would have a really great chance if getting us to the Euros. Why risk someone who hasnt worked with our squad before. I'd say there's a good bit of space at the bar in that 'O'Neill for Euro 2020' club. Despite the magnanimous 24/55 places on offer, our chances would greatly depend on the draw more than O'Neill's guile. I think it can be stated with confidence that Roy hasn't a scooby doo.
On O'Neill's side, it's fair to point out that he's had to work with the weakest team in decades (imo), with some players who struggled in their prime to hold a first team spot under Trap or well past their prime and Trap's was just a decent average team. I'm not one of those who revises opinions over O'Neill's good and sometimes excellent games and pass those fortunes down to luck or haphazard events, just to round off some agenda that he's a total relic. But there is an obvious lack of consistency in performance and results under O'Neill and with tactical deficits, so much so that risking another manager appointment has its lure.

[DeLorean]

Despite the magnanimous 24/55 places on offer, our chances would greatly depend on the draw more than O'Neill's guile.

Given that he has shown ability to not only beat higher ranked opposition, but also finish ahead of them over a full campaign, I think it's slightly harsh to say his chances of success are draw-dependent. Obviously the draw is very important, but that's the case for every non-powerhouse looking to qualify, and would be the case for any other manager that takes over also.

[brine3]

I don't care so much about qualification. I'd like Ireland matches to no longer be an assault on my eyeballs.

[DeLorean]

In an ideal world we would be able to mix it up and remain competitive, as we were under O'Neill at the Euros but unfortunately it didn't last.

[DeLorean]

Sky Sports are saying that Slaven Bilic isn't being considered for the Stoke job, despite being a favourite in some bookmakers - http://www.skysports.com/transfer-centre


BREAKING NEWS

Sky Sports News has been told former West Ham boss Slaven Bilic is not being considered for the vacant manager’s job at Stoke.

Bilic is joint favourite with most bookmakers, but it’s now clear he isn’t in the running.

Martin O’Neill is still a strong contender, but there are other candidates that owners Peter and John Coates are looking at.

Stoke are considering asking O’Neill to take the job on a short term basis we understand, so that they can make a more considered, long term appointment in the summer, but it isn’t clear whether O’Neill would be happy with that arrangement.

[seanfhear]

Sky Sports are saying that Slaven Bilic isn't being considered for the Stoke job, despite being a favourite in some bookmakers - http://www.skysports.com/transfer-centre
Bilic looked like a man that needed a long rest in the end at West Ham . West Ham does that to a lot of people mind.

Hammered by the Hammers....who’d have thunk that ?

[DeLorean]

That's true. He could do with a nice stress free gig. Sign him up, John.

[Diggs246]

I wonder is Michael O'Neill holding out to see if we come in for him , my understanding is he has offers from NI and also Scotland, but hasn't signed. The Scottish offer I believe if the media are right is lucrative

[geysir]

Given that he has shown ability to not only beat higher ranked opposition, but also finish ahead of them over a full campaign, I think it's slightly harsh to say his chances of success are draw-dependent. Obviously the draw is very important, but that's the case for every non-powerhouse looking to qualify, and would be the case for any other manager that takes over also.
The question I was answering was the fear of ill consequences arising out of replacing a known quantity like O'Neill.
I can live with one small part of my reply being assessed as "slightly harsh", ---- but in the main a tolerable opinion.:)
As we have seen before with Trap, it doesn't bode well when a manager who should have been retired, stutters unconvincingly into a 3rd campaign.

Re us and higher ranked opposition under O'Neill, ranking is an indicator but oft times an inaccurate indicator as was shown in the kind 2018 WC qual draw. A lowly (but decent) 3rd seeded team, just ahead of us in the rankings, ended up topping the group, which tells us that Wales were a good first seed team for us to have and Austria were well above their station as 2nd seeds (as Charlie predicted). Therefore us beating & finishing ahead of higher ranked teams was not an accurate indicator of prowess as was demonstrated in the play-off tie.

[Olé Olé]

I wonder is Michael O'Neill holding out to see if we come in for him , my understanding is he has offers from NI and also Scotland, but hasn't signed. The Scottish offer I believe if the media are right is lucrative

He'd get results for us, surely. Not sure whether he'd do much in terms of the brand of football or promotion of youth/new caps that Martin has been criticized for. His style of play has been dour for NI and promotion of youth is normally due to being strapped for players.

[DeLorean]

The question I was answering was the fear of ill consequences arising out of replacing a known quantity like O'Neill.
I can live with one small part of my reply being assessed as "slightly harsh", ---- but in the main a tolerable opinion.:)
As we have seen before with Trap, it doesn't bode well when a manager who should have been retired, stutters unconvincingly into a 3rd campaign.

Re us and higher ranked opposition under O'Neill, ranking is an indicator but oft times an inaccurate indicator as was shown in the kind 2018 WC qual draw. A lowly (but decent) 3rd seeded team, just ahead of us in the rankings, ended up topping the group, which tells us that Wales were a good first seed team for us to have and Austria were well above their station as 2nd seeds (as Charlie predicted). Therefore us beating & finishing ahead of higher ranked teams was not an accurate indicator of prowess as was demonstrated in the play-off tie.

Wales/Austria might have been favourable in the overall scheme of things, but they were ranked ahead of us very much on merit. They had both achieved things were could only dream about in the previous couple of years and were deserving of their high standing. Yet we still managed to out-perform both (or at least out-result them!).

Good point about Trap and the 3rd campaign, the situation is very similar in a lot of ways.