Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[IsMiseSean]

Yeah, it's the thought of more nights like Wales Serbia & Austria at home, the Denmark games that's deflating.
Hopefully some fresh faces in the squad in March might get the enthusiasm going again.
The way O'Neill's squads have been in the past I'm expecting more of the same with the fresh faces being Alex Pearce, Stephen Gleeson & Adam Rooney.

[zero]

i must admit i was a little surprised that people seemed to think it was wrong of o'neill / roy to consider another job offer. it's a positive thing that our management team is in demand in my opinion.

i can't think of a viable, realistic alternative to the current team either. in terms of irish candidates, hughton is unlikely to leave brighton i suggest even if they are relegated.

[OwlsFan]

quite ironic after 60% of the crowd walked out long before the end of the Denmark match

To be fair, I think 60% is an exaggeration. There are always those who leave before the final whistle for a host of reasons even when their team is winning. Add to that then those who left because we were being trounced, I'd say you're talking at most 25% but I can't really remember as I was too stunned to notice and I don't fancy looking at the video again :(


Yeah, it's the thought of more nights like Wales Serbia & Austria at home, the Denmark games that's deflating.
Hopefully some fresh faces in the squad in March might get the enthusiasm going again.
The way O'Neill's squads have been in the past I'm expecting more of the same with the fresh faces being Alex Pearce, Stephen Gleeson & Adam Rooney.

Why always concentrate on the negative though ? What about the two German games and the games away to Austria, Wales and Denmark ? The pleasure of those games will go with me for an long as I live.

[DeLorean]

And that's not even mentioning the Euros. I'm willing to give MON a chance to help provide some more great moments. The players have massive respect for both himself & Keane, the importance of that shouldn't be underestimated. I don't think the, admittedly uninspiring, events of the past couple of weeks will jeopardise that too much. The alternatives really aren't too inspiring. Stephen Kenny? bah.

[pineapple stu]

I think literally the only good thing in the 180 minutes in Wales and Denmark was McClean's goal. The rest was utter cack. Denmark tore us open too many times for enjoyment. And in both games, our own footballing contribution was as caveman as in the defeats/bad draws. Even our goal, well-worked as ultimately it was, came from a daft unforced error from Wales.

[jbyrne]

...Even our goal, well-worked as ultimately it was, came from a daft unforced error from Wales.

Unforced?.. i think the superb closing down by two of our players (Hendrick and Brady?) had an awful lot to do with the error....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KueXCT9VA-Y

[IsMiseSean]

Why always concentrate on the negative though ? What about the two German games and the games away to Austria, Wales and Denmark ? The pleasure of those games will go with me for an long as I live.

I'll give you the German games. Austria away we played well and played some decent stuff, can't say the same for the games in Wales & Denmark.
That night in Copenhagen almost felt like a defeat, the performance was so dire I couldn't see how we'd manage to go through in the 2nd leg.

And more of the same to come....

[OwlsFan]

I'll give you the German games. Austria away we played well and played some decent stuff, can't say the same for the games in Wales & Denmark.
That night in Copenhagen almost felt like a defeat, the performance was so dire I couldn't see how we'd manage to go through in the 2nd leg.

And more of the same to come....

I suppose the difference between us is that you want to win having played well. I just want to win or get a result. I am not bothered about the performance. Obviously I would prefer if we played attractive football getting those wins but perversely a win obtained by the skin of our teeth is probably more enjoyable in the long run. I will admit though that after the Cardiff game I said to my friends that our performance was terrible as we cracked open a bottle of Champagne. And that is the point. Money can't buy the highs of that victory over Italy, the last minute goal in Germany, Shane Long's winner against Germany, the victories in Austria and Wales and I also came home happy from the Danish game. Even under Jack I can only think of a handful of similar results and other than in Scotland, no victory of significance away from home.

My worry about MON is that history tells us that managers find it hard to recuperate from bad results. A few bad results at the start of the next campaign and it will start to turn ugly (and not just the football) so we need to start firing on all cylinders straight away.

I wonder though what does Keane with his Notts Forest and Man U background think of our style of football? I doubt if he approves or maybe he's just glad of a job and does whatever he's told. What exactly is the role of the Assistant Manager? Does he only put out the cones ?

[pineapple stu]

Unforced?.. i think the superb closing down by two of our players (Hendrick and Brady?) had an awful lot to do with the error....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KueXCT9VA-Y
OK, fair enough point from re-watching alright.

Still doesn't negate the overall point that neither game - particularly Denmark away - gave any particular pleasure. Both were torturous drivel for the main. And the worry watching them always was that a hammering was coming, which it very quickly did.

[geysir]

Not that I think commitment is an issue, I just don't like spin.
In the video interview, Delaney presented an example of "O'Neill's 100pc commitment to Ireland",
"I believe he had a bigger offer from Stoke,"
that O'Neill rejected a higher salary before renewing his contract with ireland as undoubted evidence of his "100pc commitment" to Ireland.

Fwiw, Hughes was on £3m p/a at Stoke for a 6 day a week job, O'Neill's probably on a basic €1.2m before bonuses, for a one day a week job. Which one pays the better?

[seanfhear]

Not that I think commitment is an issue, I just don't like spin.
In the video interview, Delaney presented an example of "O'Neill's 100pc commitment to Ireland",
"I believe he had a bigger offer from Stoke,"
that O'Neill rejected a higher salary before renewing his contract with ireland as undoubted evidence of his "100pc commitment" to Ireland.

Fwiw, Hughes was on £3m p/a at Stoke for a 6 day a week job, O'Neill's probably on a basic €1.2m before bonuses, for a one day a week job. Which one pays the better?That depends on how much you like money and how much you are willing to work for it .

Perhaps Martin O ‘ Neill should have taken the Stoke job on a 5 day a week job and done the Irish job on a one day a week job .

Results would have to be tres good for this to last......

[Fizzer]

I kind of get the impression O’Neill is pleased all of this came out,a sort of ‘see how lucky you are to have me’ spin.He was obviously taken aback by the backlash after Denmark I think he may have wanted to demonstrate he has other options.I think he’s been arrogant and unnecessarily *****ly with the press from the outset,he doesn’t seem to be able to deal with the most basic queries about his tactics without spluttering in outrage.His now customary death stare at Tony O’Donoghue is grating now. For a man of his age and achievements he seems petty,insecure and emotionally immature.Which don’t mean that he’s a bad manager (Ferguson was all those things) but this ridiculous game playing that’s going on with him now,.....it’s cheap and low brow

[IsMiseSean]

I suppose the difference between us is that you want to win having played well. I just want to win or get a result. I am not bothered about the performance. Obviously I would prefer if we played attractive football getting those wins but perversely a win obtained by the skin of our teeth is probably more enjoyable in the long run. I will admit though that after the Cardiff game I said to my friends that our performance was terrible as we cracked open a bottle of Champagne. And that is the point. Money can't buy the highs of that victory over Italy, the last minute goal in Germany, Shane Long's winner against Germany, the victories in Austria and Wales and I also came home happy from the Danish game. Even under Jack I can only think of a handful of similar results and other than in Scotland, no victory of significance away from home.


Wales away performance was poor but it led to something else (playoff), which made it easier to take.

The game in Denmark was probably the worst I felt leaving an Ireland game in which we didn't lose. It was a terrible performance. My main memory of that game is Arter lumping the ball up field to no one when he had options to play it simple. We never threatened their goal once. Trap had his negative game plans, but I can't remember one as bad as that.

The mistake was made keeping Trap after Euro2012 and we threw away the next campaign. I think history is going to repeat itself.

[seanfhear]

I kind of get the impression O’Neill is pleased all of this came out,a sort of ‘see how lucky you are to have me’ spin.He was obviously taken aback by the backlash after Denmark I think he may have wanted to demonstrate he has other options.I think he’s been arrogant and unnecessarily *****ly with the press from the outset,he doesn’t seem to be able to deal with the most basic queries about his tactics without spluttering in outrage.His now customary death stare at Tony O’Donoghue is grating now. For a man of his age and achievements he seems petty,insecure and emotionally immature.Which don’t mean that he’s a bad manager (Ferguson was all those things) but this ridiculous game playing that’s going on with him now,.....it’s cheap and low brow
I’d say he has struggled to cope since John Robertson has had to retire due to health problems .

Pretty much all of his good stuff was when John Robertson was his main coach .

[brine3]

Martin and Roy haven't signed on the dotted line for the FAI yet...

Michael O'Neill is considering Scotland...

GO GET HIM!

[brine3]

Even under Jack I can only think of a handful of similar results and other than in Scotland, no victory of significance away from home.

I don't remember losing 5-1 to a mid-tier European side under Jack.


Money can't buy the highs of that victory over Italy

Lets be honest here... We played Italy when they had nothing to play for and sent out a half-motivated B team. It was luck of the draw that we played them in the last match with already Italy guaranteed as group winners. Meanwhile Sweden had to play the Italy A team. A different draw, and Sweden would have been going through instead of us.

[tetsujin1979]

I don't remember losing 5-1 to a mid-tier European side under Jack.I don't remember drawing 0-0 with a minnow under Martin O'Neill


Lets be honest here... We played Italy when they had nothing to play for and sent out a half-motivated B team. It was luck of the draw that we played them in the last match with already Italy guaranteed as group winners. Meanwhile Sweden had to play the Italy A team. A different draw, and Sweden would have been going through instead of us.So they had a team of fresh players going up against us? Also, we dropped John O'Shea (the captain) and Ciaran Clark, gave Coleman the armband for the first time (I think), gave Shane Duffy his first competitive start, and dropped Glenn Whelan for the first time in ages,
always annoys me how people leave that out of the narrative.

[brine3]

Drawing 0-0 is better than losing 5-1 at home.


Also, we dropped John O'Shea (the captain) and Ciaran Clark, gave Coleman the armband for the first time (I think), gave Shane Duffy his first competitive start, and dropped Glenn Whelan for the first time in ages, always annoys me how people leave that out of the narrative.

I don't see how any of this is relative to Italy fielding a B team?

[tetsujin1979]

so Italy's changes are relevant, but the changes we made are not?

[brine3]

Aha, so you are implying that those benched players were being rested!? That we also were putting out a B team?! Those players were dropped. They also didn't start against France. We were trounced by Belgium (who Wales would beat) and MON changed up the team out of desperation.

Italy benched players because they were being rested. Buffon and friends were all back in the team for the next match.

[jbyrne]

italys team featured 2 from PSG, 1 from AC Milan, 4 (2 of which started the champions lge final 11 months later) from Juve and 1 from Roma. we can only dream of having such a layer of first line players. cant imagine conte was too pleased at losing either!

as I have said before.... there are many irish fans who just love making excuses for the opposition when we beat them.

[brine3]

Ask the Swedes if they'd have rather played the Italy team we played or the Italy team they played.

[jbyrne]

Ask the Swedes if they'd have rather played the Italy team we played or the Italy team they played.

all part of tournament football. ask us if we would have preferred having the same break before our last 16 match than the French had.

[bennocelt]

We came in the top 16 in Europe, so proud. :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

Drawing 0-0 is better than losing 5-1 at home.
Not sure I'd agree when it's drawing 0-0 against Liechtenstein.

Though it could be argued that we were unlucky in that game - 40 shots; 20 corners. It was just one of those days. Denmark we deserved to lose as badly as we did - albeit that we were undone by having to go for goals in the second half - and a thrashing had been coming for a while.

[osarusan]

We came in the top 16 in Europe, so proud. :rolleyes:
I think it was a decent achievement.

Overall, I think O'Neill's achievements have been decent. the 2016 Euros: Qualification for the finals and then getting out of the group - could we really have expected any better?

Even in the last campaign, we qualified for the playoffs - could we really have expected to top the group ahead of Serbia, Wales, and Austria? Certainly, being so utterly dismantled by Denmark left a bad taste in the mouth, as does the style of play in general, but I still think the achievements are decent.

If we had achieved the same thing over the last two campaigns, but done that with a more attractive style of football, would MON be getting the same amount of criticism? I doubt it to be honest.

With an international manager, all he can do is make the most of the resources at his disposal, and, with the exception of how he has used (and not used) Hoolahan, I'm not convinced that any other way of playing would have brought about greater achievements. With our players, I think that qualification itself is a success, and I don't much care how it's achieved. Failure to qualify with our players doesn't automatically mean the manager has failed either, in my opinion.

My main criticism of O'Neill is that he is overly defensive in games where he shouldn't be, and that loses us points that a less conservative set-up might have earned. But over the course of a campaign, we haven't done worse that I would have expected us to do.

[brine3]

My criticism of O'Neill is not that he is overly defensive.

[geysir]

It was in the 2nd campaign where visible management/coaching issues from the first campaign came more to the fore and there's no hope that it will get any better.
The ugly football played the "Irish way" tactic deficient hoofball, under Trap and O'Neill is the stuff of derision in Europe. Not even Lichtenstein or Andorra play football this way.
The blatantly obvious move is to change managers, allow the new one to build up a new team in a new era with the benefit of more time and patience.

[tetsujin1979]

That's what fans and board members are known for - patience

[brine3]

That's the problem. The fans and the FAI only care about qualification for the next tournament, to the detriment of the long-term development of the game in Ireland.

[jbyrne]

That's the problem. The fans and the FAI only care about qualification for the next tournament, to the detriment of the long-term development of the game in Ireland.

the development of the game in Ireland is heavily dependant on the success of the national team. Irish fans love nothing more than success and people are kidding themselves if they think fans will pay at the gate for solely for entertaining football

[IsMiseSean]

For me, the main disappointment of the campaign was at this point last year we were in a fantastic position to top the group. We had home games against Wales, Austria & Serbia, a difficult trip to Wales and a potential banana skin in Tbilisi to come.
In two of the home games we played against 10 men for 20+ mins and still couldn't win either of them.
The performance in Tbilisi was embarrassing considering we took the lead early and still couldn't win.
The victory in Wales was a lucky result and if Bale hadn't been injured we would have more than likely lost that game.
Then we had the shambles of the playoff.

Recapping it like that, how on earth can anyone think it's a good idea to go with MON for another campaign?

[seanfhear]

The Clubs aren’t trying too hard to get Martin O' Neill......coz if they were you get the impression he would be off !

[bennocelt]

I think it was a decent achievement.

Overall, I think O'Neill's achievements have been decent. the 2016 Euros: Qualification for the finals and then getting out of the group - could we really have expected any better?

Even in the last campaign, we qualified for the playoffs - could we really have expected to top the group ahead of Serbia, Wales, and Austria? Certainly, being so utterly dismantled by Denmark left a bad taste in the mouth, as does the style of play in general, but I still think the achievements are decent.

With an international manager, all he can do is make the most of the resources at his disposal, and, with the exception of how he has used (and not used) Hoolahan, I'm not convinced that any other way of playing would have brought about greater achievements. With our players, I think that qualification itself is a success, and I don't much care how it's achieved. Failure to qualify with our players doesn't automatically mean the manager has failed either, in my opinion..

Thats all very fair Osarusan, I accept some of what you said. I just dont think O' Neill is some sort of genius or that we did brilliant. For all the dosh they get, but not only that the amount of bull that comes out of them.

[jbyrne]

The victory in Wales was a lucky result and if Bale hadn't been injured we would have more than likely lost that game.


yes, lets just forget that we were missing our best player and captain in that game too.

[tetsujin1979]

Bale played in the home leg too, we didn't lose that either

[samhaydenjr]

Yeah, it's the thought of more nights like Wales Serbia & Austria at home, the Denmark games that's deflating.
Hopefully some fresh faces in the squad in March might get the enthusiasm going again.
The way O'Neill's squads have been in the past I'm expecting more of the same with the fresh faces being Alex Pearce, Stephen Gleeson & Adam Rooney.

In fairness, I think this is one area where O'Neill has been pretty successful, despite limited opportunities to blood players after the Euro 2016 qualifiers kicked off: He capped Rob Elliot just as he was about to become a Premier League regular, with the same to be said about Kevin Long, which has made us less reliant on Keogh and Pearce, along with making Shane Duffy an integral part of our central defence more than a year before he became a Premier League defender. He threw 2-cap Darren Randolph on against Germany and we know how that ended. He brought Cyrus Christie into the fold, who has proven himself a very capable back-up to Seamus Coleman.

He also gave debuts to O'Dowda, Hourihane, Browne, Arter, Maguire and Horgan who may have important roles to play in the next qualifying campaigns and should get the chance to become more integrated into the team in the coming months as well as snaring Scott Hogan, who should also get his opportunity to impress. Besides them, the likely debutantes in the Spring and Summer friendlies would be: Declan Rice, for sure; Josh Cullen, if he starts getting game time in the league; Matt Doherty deserves his shot, especially as it's looking more and more likely that Wolves will get promoted; Wessi-alike Alan Judge, now that he's returned from injury; Wessi Junior Liam Kelly; Aiden O'Brien, as we will need depth up front; Enda Stevens, Greg Cunningham and/or Kevin O'Connor as we need cover at left back.

Beyond these, it would take something pretty special from other potentials to justify a call-up over the next few months - for the likes of Shaughnessy, Carruthers, Charsley, Ronan, Doyle-Hayes, Lawlor, Byrne etc, these friendlies will likely be a little too soon (that said, O'Neill gave O'Dowda his first cap when he had only played League Two so you never know). Because when the next season starts it's likely that we will have 15-18 Premier League players who will provide the bulk of our squad - add in established internationals who will probably be playing in The Championship (Randolph, Christie, Meyler, McGeady) and there's not that many places up for grabs.

The upcoming friendlies will give O'Neill the opportunity for serious experimentation, so we shouldn't be too surprised if we have a couple of repeats of last year's disaster against Mexico. But hopefully by the time the Nations League rolls around, some of the newbies will have impressed enough to warrant an opportunity to continue playing, with an eye to having them fully ready for the Euro qualifiers in March

[seanfhear]

Perhaps Martin O' Neill could do with a new coach to freshen things up and even Martin himself .

Looking at Roy Keane would wear thin for anyone after awhile .

[liamoo11]

Will there be a home friendly in March? Don't we always have a friendly included in the season ticket in March?

[IsMiseSean]

yes, lets just forget that we were missing our best player and captain in that game too.

Fair point, but our best player was unlikely to be a match winner. As mush as I love Coleman, he isn't as influential in the attacking third as Bale.


Bale played in the home leg too, we didn't lose that either

Again fair point, but from minute one Wales were settling for a draw. If I remember correctly there were also doubts over Bale's fitness going in to the game.
Drawing at home to Wales wasn't a good result considering the position we were in at the time. If anything the Wales result along with the Coleman injury was a momentum killer and we just got worse from that point on.

[tetsujin1979]

Like I said in a blog post, you really can underestimate the effect of Coleman's injury on the result of that game, the players themselves and the rest of the qualifiers. Would we have needed the play offs with him in our side? It's impossible to tell, but you can't deny we are a better side with him in the team.
Worth noting that Wales also lost their talisman and captain, and ultimately failed to get out of the group. We did the same and got to the play offs

[osarusan]

I see that Michael O'Neill has turned down the Scottish job and will stay with northern Ireland.

I would guess that there aren't too many NI fans worrying about how he got his head turned and his commitment to the job now.

[DeLorean]

I would guess that there aren't too many NI fans worrying about how he got his head turned and his commitment to the job now.

Interesting point!

[DannyInvincible]

O'Neill has now signed the new contract: https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2018/0123/935495-oneill-finally-puts-pen-to-paper-on-new-ireland-deal/

[geysir]

Questions about our O'Neill's commitment to the job isn't the major issue by a long shot, it's what he has to commit to the task at hand going into a 3rd campaign is blatantly at odds with what is needed.

[osarusan]

Questions about our O'Neill's commitment to the job isn't the major issue by a long shot, it's what he has to commit to the task at hand going into a 3rd campaign is blatantly at odds with what is needed.
By and large I'd agree with that, although it isn't as blatant to me as it seems to be to you.

But I think the commitment issue is being used as a stick to beat him with to a certain extent by commentators whose real issue is his suitability for the job in general.

[OwlsFan]

Would it be possible to have a Poll on this thread asking "Are you happy that Martin O'Neill is staying on as manager of Ireland ?" The results would be interesting. I would predict 55%/45% in favour.

[brine3]

the development of the game in Ireland is heavily dependant on the success of the national team. Irish fans love nothing more than success and people are kidding themselves if they think fans will pay at the gate for solely for entertaining football

Once again, I'm not necessarily looking for entertaining football. Just some kind of tactical plan that takes multiple contingencies into account. O'Neill's Ireland seems to lurch from one fixture for the next hoping for the best. The players go out on to the pitch with passion and belief, but where's the plan? What was the plan against Denmark? Get the 0-0 in Copenhagen. You'd think we were playing for an away point in a league, not a two legged playoff. We had no plan whatsoever for Denmark getting an away goal in Dublin, so we resorted to taking off our midfield and throwing on as many strikers as possible. We were pummelled. It was Football Manager desperation stuff, except without the ability to quit without saving and reload. I've seen well organised, disciplined teams come back from behind against superior opposition. Tony Pulis' teams, for example. But O'Neill had no plan for coming back against Denmark. He says there was nothing else we could have done. That he thinks that way is in itself an indictment of his management.

The Dutch would call O'Neill's approach toevalsvoetbal ('coincidence football').

If he was under contract until 2020 then keeping him on might have made sense from a financial point of view. But his contract expired in November. We chose to reward his lack of foresight and tactical organisation. The FAI are mad. We had nothing to lose by appointing a new manager.

[pineapple stu]

I'd broadly agree with that, but I think it's worth noting the possibility that the FAI have had feelers out for a new manager, but there's no-one available who's better and within budget

[jbyrne]

We had nothing to lose by appointing a new manager.

except that our fans are never happy with the manager no matter who it is.
grass is always greener.... as they say