Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[rebelmusic]

Put together the below table...the columns are the debuts of players between 17 and 21 per year...it's disturbing how few U22 players have debuted under Trap and Mon

Years is rounded off
Its really disturbing...arghr



Manager
Career
Matches
Players Debuted
Years as Manager


Steve Staunton
2006–2007
17
11
2


Mick McCarthy
1996–2002
68
15
6


Brian Kerr
2003–2005
33
7
3


Martin O'Neill
2013–
51
3
6


Giovanni Trapattoni
2008–2013
64
6
5



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https://foot.ie/attachment.php?attachmentid=2727&stc=1
https://foot.ie/attachment.php?attachmentid=2728&stc=1

[Olé Olé]

Second Captains and Off The Ball both went heavy on the Stephen Kenny for Ireland theme yesterday. David Sneyd and Gary Breen were in favour of it. Very interesting view from Dan McDonnell who reckons that this Euro campaign might come too soon and that Kenny fancies a good run in Europe next season due to superior seeding so the long term approach could and perhaps should be Kenny.

[Fixer82]

Who's the other young player O'Neill debuted?

[pineapple stu]

Second Captains and Off The Ball both went heavy on the Stephen Kenny for Ireland theme yesterday. David Sneyd and Gary Breen were in favour of it. Very interesting view from Dan McDonnell who reckons that this Euro campaign might come too soon and that Kenny fancies a good run in Europe next season due to superior seeding so the long term approach could and perhaps should be Kenny.
I find it interesting that there's been so much talk about "the next Ireland manager" lately; marks a clear public perception shift I think.

Possible Kenny could be best served coming in as U21 manager for a couple of years before moving up to the seniors, just to get used to the fold. Nothing against him particularly; but it's something that's worked at other countries - Southgate at England, Löw at Germany (who was assistant manager, not 21s manager, but same idea) - and it'd fit in with King seemingly not having his contract renewed while we can't afford to sack MON until after the upcoming qualifying campaign.

[seanfhear]

Not much demand for Roy Keane by any clubs . Could this gig be his last hurrah at coaching / managing ?

[irishfan86]

Not much demand for Roy Keane by any clubs . Could this gig be his last hurrah at coaching / managing ?

Given his reputation as a player, he will have opportunities, at least as an assistant. They may not be the sexiest, but there will be opportunities -- see the reports during the last campaign about Israel's interest.

[rebelmusic]

Who's the other young player O'Neill debuted?

Your looking at the wrong column. He debuted 3

[Olé Olé]

Was looking at MON's Wikipedia page. He's on course to spending the most time he has in any managerial role in his career with Ireland. He did 5 years at Wycombe, Leicester and Celtic and is in his 5th year with us. Interesting.

[Fixer82]

Your looking at the wrong column. He debuted 3


All I see is O’Dowda and Rice. Who’s the other one?

[rebelmusic]

All I see is O’Dowda and Rice. Who’s the other one?

Hendrick

[DeLorean]

Hendrick

Trap gave Hendrick his debut.

[Olé Olé]

Sure wasn't Marco Tardelli trying to flog him to half of Serie A!

[jbyrne]

Sure wasn't Marco Tardelli trying to flog him to half of Serie A!

no, that was Glenn Whelan i think

[IsMiseSean]

Not sure where to ask this question - but does anyone have MON's Ireland record?

Checked MON's wikipedia page and it says P53 W19 D18 L16.

My own records have P52 W19 D17 L16.

[DeLorean]

Wikipedia's would appear correct according to this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matches_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland_national_footba ll_team

Discount the Northern Ireland behind closed doors game and his record is as they've suggested above.

I was thinking that maybe you hadn't included the Belarus game in Turner's Cross but it's a drawn game you're missing.

[zero]

I'm going full MON out. My patience / hope has expired.

[Fixer82]

A lot of people saying give it to Stephen Kenny. Could be a good shout. Although I’d fear it might go the same way as Kerr.

Neil Lennon could also be a good shout.

It seems to have just lost its momentum under MON and I don’t think there’s anything that can bring it back.

[zero]

A lot of people saying give it to Stephen Kenny. Could be a good shout. Although I’d fear it might go the same way as Kerr.

Neil Lennon could also be a good shout.

It seems to have just lost its momentum under MON and I don’t think there’s anything that can bring it back.

Lennon is just a mini-MON. I can't see much point in that.

[Fixer82]

Lennon is just a mini-MON. I can't see much point in that.

Hibs playing nice football.

I do laugh at many ROI supporters rose tinted glasses. People calling for McCarthy to come back when he was roundly booed out of Lansdoen Road after Swiss game.

People lamenting Kerr not being involved any more when we played some dire defensive stuff under Kerr.

Chris Hughton i’m sure wouldn’t be tempted away from Brighton but would be nice to see get the gig as well.

[Stuttgart88]

Hibs playing nice football.

I do laugh at many ROI supporters rose tinted glasses. People calling for McCarthy to come back when he was roundly booed out of Lansdoen Road after Swiss game.

People lamenting Kerr not being involved any more when we played some dire defensive stuff under Kerr.

Chris Hughton i’m sure wouldn’t be tempted away from Brighton but would be nice to see get the gig as well.McCarthy was 16 years ago. He has learnt a lot more about management in the meantime and has exceeded expectations with tight budgets and mediocre players at club level. Since then I think it's fair to say his personal stock has risen with the Irish public while Keane's has fallen quite a bit. The booing was largely Saipan related so I think that's totally irrelevant now.

Kerr should be involved in a senior capacity in Irish football administration but not a candidate for senior manager.

The worst thing about MON is that he didn't go or wasn't pushed 12 months ago. He wanted the Stoke job but wasn't offered the contract he wanted. Now, instead he has ruined a risk-free opportunity for a new manager to bed in and bed in his ideas. It's the worst of all worlds now.

I'd take Mick back in a heartbeat. Kenny would be a risk but I'd support it. We need to reinvigorate the U21 set up too and the next U21 manager should be someone being groomed for senior responsibility in a few years. There is a lot of talent and leadership among Mick-era ex-pros.

[IsMiseSean]

I'd like to see us go down the foreign manager route. Not Italian though...
A young German manager in the David Wagner, Daniel Farke mould.

What have we got to lose?

[Diggs246]

I'd like to see us go down the foreign manager route. Not Italian though...
A young German manager in the David Wagner, Daniel Farke mould.

What have we got to lose?

Ralph Hassenhutti is Austrian and available, he has strong Bundesliga experience , he considered an expert in counter attacking football, not a possession based tactician though

I doubt we can get him in reality

[tetsujin1979]

Hibs playing nice football.

I do laugh at many ROI supporters rose tinted glasses. People calling for McCarthy to come back when he was roundly booed out of Lansdoen Road after Swiss game.

People lamenting Kerr not being involved any more when we played some dire defensive stuff under Kerr.

Chris Hughton i’m sure wouldn’t be tempted away from Brighton but would be nice to see get the gig as well.
Whenever Kerr's name is mentioned, I ask the same question - it's 7 years since his last job in charge of the Faroe Islands. Since then he's had a column in the Times, now he's writing for the Independent, and works as a studio pundit for Virgin Media (previously TV3) and co-commentator for Newstalk.

Are we really to belive that no lower league English team with ambition (e.g. Peterborough, Salford, etc), no Scottish side battling relegation (take your pick), no League of Ireland side looking to build something (Limerick, Waterford, etc) have been interested in hiring him for the past seven years?

Why has nobody offered him a position, or to look at it a different way, why has he not pursued a position? Whatever the reason is, is it enough to stop him being linked with the Ireland job, or any position within the FAI?

[Diggs246]

Here is a question, if we get beaten 4-0 on Monday. doesnt anything change:? if its 6-0
What needs to happen to bring Delaney into this and of him to act. what's spurs him to sack them. a player Munity?

[Yard of Pace]

Whenever Kerr's name is mentioned,

Whatever the reason is, is it enough to stop him being linked with the Ireland job, or any position within the FAI?

I thought that Kerr and the FAI are pretty much sworn enemies, no? And that they would never employ him again. (Whether Kerr would accept a job, I also think that he probably wouldn't...?)

I could be wrong but I thought that that's how things are there.

As for club management, I'd say at his age, having regular media work to be financially secure, and with Noel O'Reilly gone, that it may not be very attractive to him...?
He's already achieved so much, wouldn't surprise me if he didn't have the desire to manage anymore (except maybe Ireland if somehow he was asked).

[DeLorean]

I thought that Kerr and the FAI are pretty much sworn enemies, no?

As was Roy Keane but they're now paying him €700,000pa for... am... something. :)

Kerr hasn't endeared himself with some bitter comments over the years, always happy to stick the knife in, but it is a shame he hasn't been involved at some level given his level of experience and success. He'd be far more suitable for the the role of 'Player Identification Manager' than Noel King, for example.

[SkStu]

Whenever Kerr's name is mentioned, I ask the same question - it's 7 years since his last job in charge of the Faroe Islands. Since then he's had a column in the Times, now he's writing for the Independent, and works as a studio pundit for Virgin Media (previously TV3) and co-commentator for Newstalk.

Are we really to belive that no lower league English team with ambition (e.g. Peterborough, Salford, etc), no Scottish side battling relegation (take your pick), no League of Ireland side looking to build something (Limerick, Waterford, etc) have been interested in hiring him for the past seven years?

Why has nobody offered him a position, or to look at it a different way, why has he not pursued a position? Whatever the reason is, is it enough to stop him being linked with the Ireland job, or any position within the FAI?

For the footballing reasons in your post, Tets, Kerr is absolutely a non-starter for me too. Add to that the acrimonious and bitter nature of his departure and it would be fuel on the fire. A complete non-starter.

I would also like to stay away from the continental types to be honest - lack of knowledge of our pool and the potential of our domestic leagues would be a killer for us. The Trap experiment was just not really all that enjoyable when you look back on it objectively from the perspective of Irish football (there were some good days as a supporter, sure). He was a confidence killer. Similar to the last couple of years under MON.

As Stutts says, I would have Mick McCarthy back in a heartbeat. Every club that lets him go must regret it pretty soon after.
Ability to get teams playing decent football and to a level that is greater than the sum of its parts? Check.
Commitment to the hard work of international weeks? Check.
Passion for the job? Check.

Mick with Kenny in the assistant role from a succession perspective would be great too if they could work together. MON and Keane never did so its not beyond the realms of possibility. Kenny taking the U21 reins would be smart too.

I really want MON and Keane to go now but I am not convinced that it is going to happen this side of the qualifying campaign.

[brine3]

Kerr may have played defensive football but at least there was some kind of footballing plan, unlike now. Wouldn't have sacked him at the time. I also wouldn't appoint Kerr now though.

Stephen Kenny would be my choice. Modern manager, knows the players, decent football, not looking for a ridiculous salary. Don't understand why people keep associating Kenny with Kerr? Is it because they both managed in LOI? By that measure we should never hire anybody who managed in England, sure didn't MON manager over there...

[TrapAPony]

Stephen Kenny would be my choice. Modern manager, knows the players, decent football, not looking for a ridiculous salary. Don't understand why people keep associating Kenny with Kerr? Is it because they both managed in LOI? By that measure we should never hire anybody who managed in England, sure didn't MON manager over there...

I was completely against the idea of getting Kenny in as manager as I don't think he would get the respect off of senior players but surely anyone is better than Martin O'Neill at this stage. At least Kenny would have us trying to play a bit of football and attempt to score and not the puke Martin has us playing on a constant basis.

[IsMiseSean]

I don't think Kenny would be a huge success with the players he'd have available - but he'd change the mindset of the team and get us playing again or at least attempting to play. Which could benefit us down the road with some of the decent youngsters knocking around our underage teams.

O'Neill has really just continued the Trap mindset (bar the Euros) of giving up possession and being happy defending for 90mins.

[tetsujin1979]

I think the association of Kenny and Kerr comes from their obvious connection to the league of Ireland (although Kerr only played two league of Ireland players during his tenure) and their reputation of playing good, creative, attacking football. I'd ask anyone who anyone who still thinks Kerr did that at international level to go back and watch his last two games.

[Fixer82]

Not sure Kenny would get the respect of the players in the same way Kerr only got the respect of the players he had underage. I could be wrong but that’s the impression I got at the time.

Still, I’d support whoever got the job.

O’Neill needs a miracle in Denmark to keep his job. Or, you know...a goalless draw

[SkStu]

Not sure Kenny would get the respect of the players in the same way Kerr only got the respect of the players he had underage. I could be wrong but that’s the impression I got at the time.

I would tend to agree which is why I suggested that he would develop the relationships, trust & respect better with a wider pool of players as U21 Manager or Senior Team Assistant Manager that would allow him to step into the Senior Team Manager role at some point in the future.

[irishfan86]

What is the general view here on the 3-5-2 or whatever formation we have been playing? I know it's the vogue formation in the Premier League now and perhaps if we had Declan Rice or a similar calibre defensive midfielder we could make it work, but I actually believe it is a key part in our team's dysfunction.

While some players may play in that system at club level I would say they are still the exception rather than the rule. If the preparation is as basic as we've been led to believe, I think 3-5-2 is not a formation conducive to players figuring out on their own like a 4-4-2/4-5-1/4-4-1-1 that is more self evident.

There are many ways to play with a 3-5-2 but the worst way is when your wingbacks play with fear and sit as fullbacks, and you end up with a 5-3-2 against inferior opposition, which we did last night.

[Fixer82]

What is the general view here on the 3-5-2 or whatever formation we have been playing? I know it's the vogue formation in the Premier League now and perhaps if we had Declan Rice or a similar calibre defensive midfielder we could make it work, but I actually believe it is a key part in our team's dysfunction.

While some players may play in that system at club level I would say they are still the exception rather than the rule. If the preparation is as basic as we've been led to believe, I think 3-5-2 is not a formation not conducive to players figuring out on their own like a 4-4-2/4-5-1/4-4-1-1 that is more self evident.

There are many ways to play with a 3-5-2 but the worst way is when your wingbacks play with fear and sit as fullbacks, and you end up with a 5-3-2 against inferior opposition, which we did last night.

In order for it to work, we need two pillaging wing backs.

We need dynamic midfielders also.

Unfortunately, the team don’t seem to understand the tactics fully. And that’s mainly the manager’s fault

[Razors left peg]

Mick McCarthy with Damien Duff as assistant manager.

First job is to actually communicate with players in the weeks and months between games. Including finding out whether eligible players are actually interested

Second, when they do communicate it should be for more than just telling them that they are all crap in the media.

Third, have the manager actually turn up to training and set out a plan for games and not just roll in 2 hours before kick off to tell players who is picked.

Not exactly high standards we should be looking for here.

[geysir]

In order for it to work, we need two pillaging wing backs.

We need dynamic midfielders also.

Unfortunately, the team don’t seem to understand the tactics fully. And that’s mainly the manager’s fault
The team are not coached to play the manager's game, it just appears that O'Neill assigns roles and tactics written on the back of a sweet afton pack, 30 minutes before the game.
I think our best option is 4231 but with another coach. 4231 suits teams who are deficient in skills, but allows for other strengths, teamwork, counterattack and pressure upfront on the opposition. Good full backs should be able to get forward when it's practical, two midfielders in front of the back 4 give good protection against (for the most part) better ball playing teams. We have plenty of players who can play in the three midfield positions and An Other up front.

[Yard of Pace]

The idea of the players not respecting Kenny, were he given the job, makes me really laugh.

These lads fail to do the basics of the game, simple cross-field passes going out for an opposition throw, mistakes galore, no idea what to do with the ball, no movement, etc etc.... hammered by Wales and blessed not to be last night, they hardly try a leg in front of the fans who journey to see them....pathetic stuff.
If they're too big-headed not to listen to a fella like Kenny then I wouldn't have them in the squad. They don't have a leg to stand on, this is a nadir.

[TrapAPony]

O'Neill has really just continued the Trap mindset (bar the Euros) of giving up possession and being happy defending for 90mins.

Martin O'Neill is even worse than Trapattoni and I really disliked Trap's attempt at football. O'Neill has a 35% win record as manager of Ireland, which is joint worse wins record of any manager we have from the Charlton days until now. A loss against Denmark will mean he has the worse record of any recent Irish manager. We don't even have a go anymore, we are almost happy if we just see a shot on target. He is doing countless damage to Irish football and how he can still be left in charge after the horrendous style of football we play, the performances we have produced and all the stories off the pitch is beyond a joke at this stage. The FAI need to find the money and sack him.

[Jovial Rambler]

I think Stephen Kenny could do for us what mon has done with NI. Id maybe take Lennon but id stay away from the dinosaur types MON mccarthy kerr trap allardyce etc. Although i could probably accept Strachan. Chris Wilder would be my first choice although i dont think wed get him. Either way mon has to go.

[seanfhear]

Turn over to the Rugby until the terrible two get the Heave Ho .


Delaney won’t act until it hits the bottom line .

[seanfhear]

If only we had a Joe Schmidt managing the soccer team .

O’ Neill is like a Rugby manager from the 70s....Away ye go lads !

[mark12345]

I think Stephen Kenny could do for us what mon has done with NI. Id maybe take Lennon but id stay away from the dinosaur types MON mccarthy kerr trap allardyce etc. Although i could probably accept Strachan. Chris Wilder would be my first choice although i dont think wed get him. Either way mon has to go.

Did you mean Gene Wilder?

[mark12345]

In order for it to work, we need two pillaging wing backs.

We need dynamic midfielders also.

Unfortunately, the team don’t seem to understand the tactics fully. And that’s mainly the manager’s fault

I agree we don't seem to understand the tactics part of it, but we need eleven players (that includes the keeper) who can keep possession of the ball. Any time I ever coached kids I always told them there are three fundamentals which will determine whether you make it or not in the game. They are (a) ball control / first touch (b) shielding the ball (c) change of direction. Watch any Champions League game and you'll see every player can do all of the above. Unfortunately the Irish lads need to go back to those fundementals (if they ever had it to begin with) in order to be successful.

[SkStu]

Did you mean Gene Wilder?

If we go with him then we’ll be in a world of pure imagination. What we’d see would defy expectationnnn.

[geysir]

The idea of the players not respecting Kenny, were he given the job, makes me really laugh.

These lads fail to do the basics of the game, simple cross-field passes going out for an opposition throw, mistakes galore, no idea what to do with the ball, no movement, etc etc.... hammered by Wales and blessed not to be last night, they hardly try a leg in front of the fans who journey to see them....pathetic stuff.
If they're too big-headed not to listen to a fella like Kenny then I wouldn't have them in the squad. They don't have a leg to stand on, this is a nadir.
I heard that comment that some players might not listen to a fella like Kenny on one of the radio sports shows, it's just a random comment from someone on the radio, it doesn't have any merit, never mind reflect views of the players. I suspect the players would be basking in a freedom from tyranny honeymoon period should Kenny be offered and take the job.
What we need is TO'D to stand up tall, stick the mike up into Mon's face and with a manic grin ask would he not admit to the reality and resign like a real sporting gent, that even Clough knew when he was past it.

[Olé Olé]

The notion that the players wouldn't listen to Kenny is laughable. Most of the current squad haven't played a game in Europe whilst Kenny has managed a team there. Also he's an impressive and intelligent man when he speak. First impressions would be strong there. Lads that don't listen to him might be the same lads that allowed former Shams manager and his League One strikeforce press them to the hilt against NI.

[ifk101]

The ultimate failing with Kerr was he wanted to do the job. And by that I mean he didn't want to leave any stone underturned, a Joe Schmidt mindset you can say. For the players, the international games are a break from "work".

Think Kenny would face the same culture Kerr encountered.

[tetsujin1979]

I think he wanted to do it too much, players didn't want to watch DVDs of Cyprus IIRC

[brine3]

The ultimate failing with Kerr was he wanted to do the job. And by that I mean he didn't want to leave any stone underturned, a Joe Schmidt mindset you can say. For the players, the international games are a break from "work".

The senior players at the time included Robbie Keane and Shay Given, who were partial to a bit of partying. They have retired now, and I think the new generation of Irish players are much more professional. Seamus Coleman being the shining example.