Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[seanfhear]

I wonder what managerial team interaction could possibly explain and justify the anarchy of the Cyrus midfield role?
Threading on dangerous ground here but .....Both Paul McGrath and Mark Lawrenson played in midfield for Ireland . Ok Cyrus Christie is no Paul McGrath or Mark Lawrenson . What I am saying is that perhaps M’ON / Roy Keane wanted to bring a bit of physical presence / defence / athletic-ism to the midfield . We are really lacking a mobile defensive good midfielder .

Only Playing Devils Advocate !

[Real ale Madrid]

Ok Cyrus Christie is no Paul McGrath or Mark Lawrenson

Understatement of the century!

[seanfhear]

Understatement of the century!But they are not as good as him now . They are way too old;)

[DeLorean]

I actually place a lot of the blame for our midfield failures on Roy. No doubt this is a bad batch of Irish midfielders, but Roy of all people should have been advocating strongly for O'Neill to select a proper defensive/holding midfielder like a Shaun Williams.

Maybe he did. We don't really know.

As for being abrasive on the sideline, so what? It's not under 12's.

[jbyrne]

What I am saying is that perhaps M’ON / Roy Keane wanted to bring a bit of physical presence / defence / athletic-ism to the midfield . We are really lacking a mobile defensive good midfielder .

Only Playing Devils Advocate !

agree with the thinking behind this. Christie was our most mobile ctre mid in the last few matches but his playing there was an easy stick to hit MON with. he outshone some of our regular ctre mids when playing there

[Stuttgart88]

agree with the thinking behind this. Christie was our most mobile ctre mid in the last few matches but his playing there was an easy stick to hit MON with. he outshone some of our regular ctre mids when playing thereO'Neill specifically cited his mobility as a factor, given the Aviva pitch is very long. I think Christie did well enough but his first touch and ability to protect the ball when receiving it weren't up to the standard necessary for a CM. A full back doesn't need the same skill as he'll almost always be facing play when he gets the ball. Christie got shown up as a round peg in a square hole and only really outshone anyone because pretty much everyone else played badly, not least because some - especially in the middle - were given inappropriate roles. For the life of me I don't see how O'Neill failed to noticed that we used the ball better between defence and attack when Shaun Williams was playing. This was just glaringly obvious to me. As was Stevens' comfort in the LWB position over McClean's. MON's judgment was found seriously wanting at times.

[Fixer82]

Maybe he did. We don't really know.

As for being abrasive on the sideline, so what? It's not under 12's.

Absolutely.
Keane getting too much criticism for team selection when it wasn’t his job and we don’t know what input he had.

He deserves more criticism for the rows and falling out with players.

Interesting interview with Carlos Edwards here about Keane

https://youtu.be/GzoDU-IOqHw

[osarusan]

Instead he seems to have proved another theory of mine, that people who found playing the game easy never understand it quite as well as those who had to really figure it out.

The ex-managers club is full of top class players who proved useless at getting other players to do what they themselves had been able to do effortlessly.

It's funny sometimes to listen to ex-players in a punditry job, and hear just how much utter rubbish they talk. I sometimes end up wondering how they ever managed to play the game at such a level for so long, because if seems like they have no insight into it at all.

I remember watching Duff as a pundit on the Juve-Spurs CL game, and commenting on a penalty, he said something like "It's not deliberate, but it's bad defending, and you have to punish it. Penalty." I remember thinking to myself...Is that actually what you think? Is that what you've thought all they way through your career?

[tricky_colour]

What ?


I'd say McCarthy, currently propping up the Championships would see it as an attractive proposition.


Grammatically corrected but not factually corrected, I was not aware McCarthy had departed or at least if I was I forgot, I can't remember which is the case.

But it is a plus point that I was wrong. (a plus point for McCarty, not for me personally).

[geysir]

I remember watching Duff as a pundit on the Juve-Spurs CL game, and commenting on a penalty, he said something like "It's not deliberate, but it's bad defending, and you have to punish it. Penalty." I remember thinking to myself...Is that actually what you think? Is that what you've thought all they way through your career?
What was wrong with what Duff said? Bad defending leads to foul in the penalty area = penalty?

[tricky_colour]

Mick left Ipswich at the end of last season when they had finished (I believe) comfortably mid-table. Whether he can be blamed for their subsequent crash would take a closer follower of English football than me to say.

I would not have though so, the new manager was fired in October. Mick planned to leave that year so I guess he had little incentive to build for next season, but I think some players were brought in and none sold
The new manager has had little impact on their poor form.


I looks hard to blame Mick really but....


https://www.thesackrace.com/news/27th-october-2018/why-mick-mccarthy-is-to-blame-for-ipswich-towns-current-struggles


Why Mick McCarthy is to blame for Ipswich Town’s current struggles

To most outside IP1, the accepted theory is that Ipswich Town’s early-season blues are down to the exit of Mick McCarthy.
The Yorkshireman maximized a limited squad and Paul Hurst, who has this week lost his job as Tractor Boys boss with just one win to his name, was unable to match his predecessor’s ability to perform on a low budget.

Of course, the off-field issues do not help any Ipswich Manager (https://www.thesackrace.com/teams/ipswich-town).
The club are continuously selling key assets and not spending anything like the same amount of money on their replacements.
And yet, that is also the case for Swansea, Bristol City, Brentford and – forgive me Ipswich fans – Norwich.
Those four clubs had been challenging in the top half under Graham Potter, Lee Johnson, Dean Smith and Daniel Farke – even if Smith left the Bees recently.
What those four head coaches have done is trust in young players and, over a long period, introduce a modern brand of football that fans can buy into.
This is what McCarthy has failed to do...
Firstly, he generally favoured experienced performers.

Eight Ipswich players made more than 35 appearances last season and of them, only Jonas Knudsen and Grant Ward were under 28; one could ask the question as to whether Knudsen or Ward have the potential to improve beyond the level they are currently at.

Old players tend to be cheaper in the short-term, they are often more vocal in the changing rooms and can be more predictable in terms of performance levels.
It is understandable, in some ways, that a manager without much spending power who has the brief of survival looks at this profile of player.



more on link i dont want to copy it all

but it make little sense as ..



The dismissal of the 44-year-old and the appointment of Paul Lambert, who tends to favour old, British players in a defensive system, represents an attempt to get back to what they were doing before McCarthy left.

The problem is, what they were doing before McCarthy left is what got them into this mess in the first place.



So if they are trying to go back to what Mick was doing that is credit for Mick, it didn't get them into that mess really they were mid table.

[osarusan]

What was wrong with what Duff said? Bad defending leads to foul in the penalty area = penalty?

It was a Spurs penalty claim for handball, not given. I should have explained it in more detail alright.

[DeLorean]

Vacancy - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/11/nottingham-forest-manager-aitor-karanka-leaves-club

[third policeman]

Vacancy - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/11/nottingham-forest-manager-aitor-karanka-leaves-club

Only a matter of time before they'll be back winning Champions League with the Two Amigos in charge.

[DeLorean]

Various reports saying O'Neill is poised to become the new manager of Nottingham Forest. They had concerns over Kananka's style of play!

[Olé Olé]

Assuming Daniel Taylor is one of MON's cronies in the media? A few thinly-veiled digs at the Ireland squad here: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/14/martin-oneill-nottingham-forest-new-manager

[NeverFeltBetter]

I wouldn't even call those thinly veiled.

[DeLorean]

They're reasonable comments at the same time. He's entitled to defend his record when, on balance, we did probably overachieve in terms of results and group positions.

It will be intriguing to see how this goes. I thought he might try to get John Robertson back on board, seeing as he's also emotionally invested in Forest. I know he's has health issues though. You'd have to fear for him a little if it's Keane, as suggested. Might work for a while maybe!

[Olé Olé]

They are reasonable but they're completely one -sided. Why report on the pending appointment and include strong defence of O'Neill's record? I don't see the point.

[DeLorean]

I don't think it is one sided. It's a summary of what he has done in his managerial career, good, bad (and perceived good/bad).

[Olé Olé]

I don't think it is one sided. It's a summary of what he has done in his managerial career, good, bad (and perceived good/bad).
I don't see the need for the summary. I think it is one-sided in that it highlights the narrative "Ireland have no players, what do they expect" and little else. It ignores the subbing off of the midfield at home to Denmark and being outplayed by NI's League One players which would be the sticks used to to beat O'Neill by the media. Nobody has been deluded enough to think our squad is good. Yet the article fails to provide context for the O'Neill criticism and there's little balance.

That's what I think.

His entitlement to defend his record is obvious. This is just a tad *****ly, like a cringworthy Tony O'Donoghue interview for me.

[Charlie Darwin]

Assuming Daniel Taylor is one of MON's cronies in the media? A few thinly-veiled digs at the Ireland squad here: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/14/martin-oneill-nottingham-forest-new-manager
He's a Nottingham Forest fan but not sure if he has much direct contact with him. It's the fellow in the Telegraph who gets spoonfed by him.

[Olé Olé]

He's a Nottingham Forest fan but not sure if he has much direct contact with him. It's the fellow in the Telegraph who gets spoonfed by him.

Ah. Cheers. That sounds right.

[tricky_colour]

Various reports saying O'Neill is poised to become the new manager of Nottingham Forest. They had concerns over Kananka's style of play!

I just hear he has been appointed manager on BBC news.

I was a bit surprised as the previous manager had just beat top of the table Leeds away from home.

Problem is the are poor at home and get bad results against teams down the bottom end of the table.

Will be interesting to see how it pans out with two former Forest players in charge, probably not as well as expected, but we shall see,

[geysir]

Isn't there an inveterate Nott. Forest fan who is also a member here and has suffered greatly over the years experiencing the rot take root in the Ireland set up under O'Neill and Keane?
If so, I just can''t imagine the despair.

[shakermaker1982]

I think you are overestimating the abilities of English football journalists in knowing or remembering the full inside story on what happened against Denmark.

English football fans (& journalists) look at our current side and think ‘how the **** did you beat Germany, Italy etc. Harsh but true’. Get it in the office every time we have a bad result.

Dan Taylor is a good journalist and knows his stuff. Worked the Manchester beat for a number of years.

[DeLorean]

I'd expect most articles breaking a managerial appointment to include a basic synopsis of the manager's previous jobs. I wouldn't really expect a tactical analysis of specific matches. I agree the article reads favourably from O'Neill's point of view, but then his managerial career has generally been a very successful one. He had a poor record at Sunderland and this was highlighted. He had a mixed spell with us and the different perspectives were highlighted, albeit in a general sense.

Looks like Keane will be his number two again - https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/martin-oneill-and-roy-keane-set-for-reunion-at-forest-37712188.html

[osarusan]

Article is ok but glosses over the scale of the downward trajectory at the end of his time with Ireland.

[DeLorean]

Article is ok but glosses over the scale of the downward trajectory at the end of his time with Ireland.

As Shakermaker suggests, I don't think the scale of that trajectory is anywhere near as obvious from the outside looking in. We lived every painful detail of it, Taylor probably looks at the campaign as a whole and sees some decent/excellent results and a disappointing ending. That does have the effect of glossing over some of the bad stuff, I'm just not sure it's deliberate.

Anyway, O'Neill confirmed - https://www.nottinghamforest.co.uk/news/2019/january/martin-oneill-appointed/

[osarusan]

As Shakermaker suggests, I don't think the scale of that trajectory is anywhere near as obvious from the outside looking in. We lived every painful detail of it, Taylor probably looks at the campaign as a whole and sees some decent/excellent results and a disappointing ending. That does have the effect of glossing over some of the bad stuff, I'm just not sure it's deliberate.

Anyway, O'Neill confirmed - https://www.nottinghamforest.co.uk/news/2019/january/martin-oneill-appointed/

I'd guess it's more likely that as a Forest fan, he doesn't really want to **** all over their new manager by saying how awful his most recent campaign was, so glossed over it.

[DeLorean]

I'd guess it's more likely that as a Forest fan, he doesn't really want to **** all over their new manager by saying how awful his most recent campaign was, so glossed over it.

There could be an element of that alright, but I think it'd have been a stretch to describe it as an awful campaign anyway. Unless you mean the NL campaign!

[osarusan]

There could be an element of that alright, but I think it'd have been a stretch to describe it as an awful campaign anyway. Unless you mean the NL campaign!

Yeah I'm only talking about the last NL campaign and that downward trajectory.

[DeLorean]

Fair enough. He described that campaign as "unsuccessful". Might be a coat of gloss there alright. :D

[OwlsFan]

Yes, will be interesting to see how they get on but the Championship is a tough league and much more interesting than the EPL with a relatively even playing field and any one of 15 teams (Wednesday are 16th) capable of challenging for promotion. I would be surprised if they do better than their predecessor but hey, it's a funny old game. They might have been better off going for the recently left by mutual consent ex Huddersfield manager.

[geysir]

Yes, will be interesting to see how they get on but the Championship is a tough league and much more interesting than the EPL with a relatively even playing field and any one of 15 teams (Wednesday are 16th) capable of challenging for promotion. I would be surprised if they do better than their predecessor but hey, it's a funny old game. They might have been better off going for the recently left by mutual consent ex Huddersfield manager.
Despair not, as of the 75th min, a cup run beckons.

[OwlsFan]

Done for O'Neill but not dusted for Keane as yet https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/0117/1023853-oneill-id-dearly-love-roy-to-join-me-at-forest/ Somehow I doubt if Keane enjoys putting out the cones for Mayor-tin. Must have ambition to get back in to management. If Rogers goes to Leicester would Celtic give him a try ?

[shakermaker1982]

Cracking result last night for Forest. MO’N has bought wisely and the City is bouncing again. Promotion charge is definitely on now. They’ve been robbed by bad ref calls in the last few matches but look very impressive at home.

MO’N looks really happy at the minute. Definitely a bounce in his step.

[DeLorean]

Can't see them making the playoffs but that win will keep him in the good books for a while.

[OwlsFan]

No surprise to see Big Daryl getting his game under MONKE.

[DeLorean]

Big Daryl could get his game under Big Mick too!

[OwlsFan]

Big Daryl could get his game under Big Mick too!

Inhales deeply and sighs.

[tricky_colour]

Can't see them making the playoffs but that win will keep him in the good books for a while.

I was thinking the same, but with Bristol City losing on Tuesday it is not totally out of the question, indeed if Forest win again
and Bristol City lose again and the two other teams above them fail to win their next match they would actually be in the
playoffs!!!
Still a tall order though, especially knowing Forest every time they seems to make a bit of progress they tend to fall back again!

Might be different under the new management though, we'll have to wait and see!

so tough to make the play off and then it will be tough to get through them, the book makers make them a 25-1 shot, must have
been about 50-1 before Bristol City lost!

[OwlsFan]

Sheffield Wednesday are only a further three points back but I wouldn't give them a snow ball's chance in hell of getting through to the play offs so what does that make Forest's chance ? A large snowman's chance ?

[tricky_colour]

Actually Forest would have been more than 50-1 cos Bristol City were away from home to a team above them in the league, but probably a 1 in 3 chance of winning so they would be 75-1 or 80-1. Which is probably what Sheffield Wed are.
Actually Shef Wed are about 150-1.

All the odds are for promotion, I mistaken put to reach the play offs.

Sheffield Wed have a bad goal difference that is why they are longer than 80-1 they are -7 goals whereas forest are +9 so they would need an extra point to pass Bristol City really.

[tetsujin1979]

Tricky, knock off the gambling talk

[tricky_colour]

Tricky, knock off the gambling talk
It is nothing to do with gambling, it is just trying to assign a figure to their chance of promotion to quantify it. If for example I said "Ireland have a good chance of qualifying", you could say that was gambling talk, only difference is I am quantifying "good".

By the way there are adverts for cosmetic breast surgery on the site, something that could kill you. Not sure why they advertise here lol, but if I see any adverts for gambling sites I will let you know!

[SkStu]

By the way there are adverts for cosmetic breast surgery on the site, something that could kill you. Not sure why they advertise here lol, but if I see any adverts for gambling sites I will let you know!

It makes no sense alright Tricky. You’re already surrounded by a load of tits.

[tricky_colour]

It makes no sense alright Tricky. You’re already surrounded by a load of tits.
Seriously though, their advertising algorithm must be really screwed up. I mean if it was penis enlargement....;)

[tetsujin1979]

Ads are based on your browser history. So what exactly have you been browsing?

[osarusan]

50p says Mrs Tricky is planning a surprise for him.