Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[Yard of Pace]

The biggest negative is that it'll still be such a distraction for an Irish media always on the hunt for ways to undermine the national team.

Agreed. But if it wasn't this it'd be something else anyway.

[tricky_colour]

The less time a manager has to meddle the better, Roy should take on a few more jobs.

[Razors left peg]

When this was brought up first months ago I thought it was ridiculous and impossible for him to do both jobs, but then I remembered that no one batted an eyelid when Hughton did the same thing under Kerr.

Hes obviously got a lot of spare time on his hands so I think fair play to him for wanted to keep learning with a view to getting back into management at some stage, hopefully he'll be a better manager for it in future.

The only negative I can see really is that it is Villa. The club is up for sale and Lambert surely has to be on borrowed time there so I can see an early in the season sacking leading to Keane being linked with the manager job very soon, leading to another media sh1t storm!

[BonnieShels]

Have no idea why people think this is such a big deal.

We complained that he was overshadowing the team and that he was "only" the asst manager. Now he shouldn't take this role because he IS the asst manager.

This can only be good for Ireland. There is no bad side to this, unless you REALLY want to see one.

[jbyrne]

Have no idea why people think this is such a big deal.

We complained that he was overshadowing the team and that he was "only" the asst manager. Now he shouldn't take this role because he IS the asst manager.

This can only be good for Ireland. There is no bad side to this, unless you REALLY want to see one.

i would imagine that an assistant managers role is very time consuming at an EPL club. how can our national assistant manager having much less time to spend on that role possibly be seen as a positive versus our assistant manager concentrating on the national position full time?

[gastric]

Jack Grealish will only play for us now. Imagine explaining any other decision to Roy!

[geysir]

I don't see it as a big deal that Keane has another job but as I have said from the beginning, he is being way overpaid to be a part time assistant manager for a modest international set up, probably by a factor of 3. He would be fortunate to get a similar salary, for a much more demanding full time job to an income rich epl club like Villa.

[Jovial Rambler]

This will not cause any problem for us.

[OwlsFan]

I don't see it as a big deal that Keane has another job but as I have said from the beginning, he is being way overpaid to be a part time assistant manager for a modest international set up, probably by a factor of 3. He would be fortunate to get a similar salary, for a much more demanding full time job to an income rich epl club like Villa.

Wasn't he supposed to spend a lot of time scouting ? How will he have time for this when he is attending Villa games as assistant-manager ?

[BonnieShels]

i would imagine that an assistant managers role is very time consuming at an EPL club. how can our national assistant manager having much less time to spend on that role possibly be seen as a positive versus our assistant manager concentrating on the national position full time?

The assistant manager's role is to assist the manager as he sees fit. None of us know how the Villa set up works and what he will do. I can't see how this can be a bad thing.

The Assistant manager's role at International level is beyond part-time. Sure Maurice Setters could do it. :)

[osarusan]

The assistant manager's role is to assist the manager as he sees fit. None of us know how the Villa set up works and what he will do. I can't see how this can be a bad thing.

Without knowing what M'ON 'sees fit', we can't really say what kind of impact that his Villa job will have on his job with Ireland. He will clearly be limited in how much scouting he can do during EPL active periods. How important was that element of his job with Ireland?

I can't imagine Villa being too keen for him to see the position as less than full time, so I'd guess that any sacrifices that have to be made will come from his responsibilities with Ireland.

EDIT: that said, if M'ON is keeping him on his team, he either thinks Keane can still meet his (revised?) job description, or he's just not too bothered either way.

[Eminence Grise]

The Assistant manager's role at International level is beyond part-time. Sure Maurice Setters could do it. :)

And don't forget he managed the U21s at the same time!:rolleyes:

Close the thread. All other comments are redundant. Bonnie, you've nailed the arugment!:victorious:

[jbyrne]

at a time when our team is at possibly its lowest point ever and needs all the help it can get some think its a positive that our assistant manager is double jobbing. baffling really. i'm surprised at some of the posters who now appear to accept second best for our national team

[geysir]

That's a bit ironic to be calling Keane's FAI effort 'second best', not up to scratch, possibly muppet standard
How times have changed :)

[BonnieShels]

at a time when our team is at possibly its lowest point ever and needs all the help it can get some think its a positive that our assistant manager is double jobbing. baffling really. i'm surprised at some of the posters who now appear to accept second best for our national team

Did you feel so strongly about Hughton double jobbing or is it a case that it's different because it's Roy?

I think posters who believe it will affect the team so drastically are the ones who need to calm down.

The joy of opinions.

[Charlie Darwin]

Did you feel so strongly about Hughton double jobbing or is it a case that it's different because it's Roy?

I think posters who believe it will affect the team so drastically are the ones who need to calm down.

The joy of opinions.
I think the difference is that Hughton wasn't being paid a full-time wage. Hell, he's being paid about 10 full-time wages. The job shouldn't be an afterthought with the money he's on, in my opinion.

[BonnieShels]

I think the difference is that Hughton wasn't being paid a full-time wage. Hell, he's being paid about 10 full-time wages. The job shouldn't be an afterthought with the money he's on, in my opinion.

What is he on? I think the money he is on doesn't way in if they are successful. If it turns out that this partnership is a disaster then fine I will hold my hand up but if not then it'll be worth every penny. Also let's not forget the Grealish Dynamic.

[Charlie Darwin]

What is he on? I think the money he is on doesn't way in if they are successful. If it turns out that this partnership is a disaster then fine I will hold my hand up but if not then it'll be worth every penny. Also let's not forget the Grealish Dynamic.
500-700k. 5-7 times the prize for winning the league (which is paid for by entrance fees anyway).

[BonnieShels]

I'd still be more concerned by our useless CEOs pay before we'll talk about RMK.

At least Denis is picking up that tab.

[Charlie Darwin]

Well I lament his salary in the full knowledge that were he to take a pay-cut, none of it would come back to benefit the game so I suppose they can pay him whatever the hell they like.

[ArdeeBhoy]

at a time when our team is at possibly its lowest point ever and needs all the help it can get some think its a positive that our assistant manager is double jobbing. baffling really. i'm surprised at some of the posters who now appear to accept second best for our national team

You are joking...
Plus anyone with the slightest degree of nous, knows RMK is doing this purely to suit himself, not from some great altruistic stance FFS.

[gastric]

Packie's take on the WC, Roy and the modern goalkeeper. Nice read!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/ireland-players-have-lot-of-catching-up-to-do-packie-bonner-30405951.html

[jbyrne]

Did you feel so strongly about Hughton double jobbing or is it a case that it's different because it's Roy?

I think posters who believe it will affect the team so drastically are the ones who need to calm down.

The joy of opinions.

i don't think it will affect the team "drastically" but we need all the help we can get at the moment and this is a distraction. Lambert will be one of the early season favourites for the chop and no doubt we'll have to go through the roy to take over media circus. at best his taking of the villa assistant managers job is disruption and i fail to see any positives as some allege.

had the same, and other, issues with chris hughton

[BonnieShels]

But Roy is gonna be a distraction no matter what. He's box office. Always has been. Always will be.

[DannyInvincible]

Packie's take on the WC, Roy and the modern goalkeeper. Nice read!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/ireland-players-have-lot-of-catching-up-to-do-packie-bonner-30405951.html


"As a nation we have always produced good enough players. However, we have never been able to finish them off in this country, resulting in them having to go to England and Scotland. And while we have been trying hard over here, a change or two is needed.

"Take the Emerging Talent programme which was set up to try and fill the (quality) gap. Players on that get together just one day a week. But that was our starting point way back when we started (10 years ago). The number of practice hours has to increase, so young players get more of a chance to develop.

"If we don't do something like that, how are our young players going to get into the first teams of Premier League clubs?

Why do we always have to "get [our young players] into the first teams of Premier League clubs" specifically? This is part of the problem. A change in emphasis is required. We should aim to develop players for ourselves; not because we think the Premier League is the be all and end all in terms of aspiration. If there's Premier League interest in our players, that's no bad thing, but does the shipment of our young talent across to (only) England (often at the earliest opportunity) always have to be the case?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, think we might just have covered that about 100 times previously...

[DannyInvincible]

But Roy is gonna be a distraction no matter what. He's box office. Always has been. Always will be.

The FAI went for high-profile/contentious in order to capture back the imagination of casual fans and general national interest. Keane will always be making headlines in the sports pages, so the distraction that comes with his stature and profile is an inevitable side-effect of his appointment. It's a necessary part of the deal for the FAI, I guess.

[DannyInvincible]

Hmm, think we might just have covered that about 100 times previously...

Is there anything to be said for a 101st time? :p

In seriousness though, it's still kind of frustrating to hear figures with significant FAI influence continue to peddle the Anglo-centric line. Niall Quinn is terrible for it too.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Not really, re.time 101.

And I hear you, but long-term planning doesn't seem to be an Irish sort of thing, as far more starkly illustrated elsewhere!

[Stuttgart88]

Is there anything to be said for a 101st time? :p

In seriousness though, it's still kind of frustrating to hear figures with significant FAI influence continue to peddle the Anglo-centric line. Niall Quinn is terrible for it too.
In fairness, he also said we need players in the Champions League. I actually think Bonner gets it. He sees the need to keep making progress and adapting the methods and structures rather than sitting smugly on some positive steps taken ages back. It's good people like him are in the FAI. Oh, wait...

[BonnieShels]

The FAI went for high-profile/contentious in order to capture back the imagination of casual fans and general national interest. Keane will always be making headlines in the sports pages, so the distraction that comes with his stature and profile is an inevitable side-effect of his appointment. It's a necessary part of the deal for the FAI, I guess.
Knock knock... how cynical sir.

Out of the available likely candidates I think we got the best out there. That there was a bonus aspect to it for the armchair fan, great. But as it stands we've done great and to be honest, Keane in the tent p!ssing out is better than him p!ssing in!

[DannyInvincible]

Knock knock... how cynical sir.

Out of the available likely candidates I think we got the best out there. That there was a bonus aspect to it for the armchair fan, great. But as it stands we've done great and to be honest, Keane in the tent p!ssing out is better than him p!ssing in!

I have no issue with the appointment - was agreeing with you really - and the baggage that comes with Roy is just part of the price the FAI have to pay. If they're happy with the deal, and it seems they are, all's good. :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

A little humility?
:eek:

http://balls.ie/football/roy-keane-took-a-pay-cut-to-stay-as-ireland-assistant-manager/

[tricky_colour]

A little humility?
:eek:

http://balls.ie/football/roy-keane-took-a-pay-cut-to-stay-as-ireland-assistant-manager/


"I just felt I didn’t want to have any compromise regarding my role in football with punditry.”

It wouldn’t be Roy without a slight dig at someone eh?


I am not sure what that is supposed to mean, is he not just saying he might be seen to be
biased being involved in football whilst being a commentator?


Actually Gary is a coach to the English national team, so maybe it is a reference to that, I was
not away of that but it does seem odd to commentate on a team you coach.

"And that was a great effort from Rooney who has obviously benefited from some
top class coaching from someone..."

Or more likely "poor effort from Rooney, he must be injured because he has a world class coach"

[gastric]

Lads, I have noticed an ongoing negativity surrounding the national team at the moment. I think we need to put this into perspective. I feel we have had two lost years since Euro 12. Trap didn't change the team's style of play which was negative and defensive with an obsessive emphasis on not making mistakes which has lead to fear among the players. Their lack of confidence in the system is evident and our normal passion has disappeared. O'Neill and Roy have to get inside their heads and change this style and build confidence. The WC must help them. Our team on paper is comparable and probably better than many of the nations including the US, Australia, Bosnia, Greece and dare I say it Costa Rica!
When you look at these teams they are well coached and they play to their strengths. We have to stop this belief that unless our players are playing in the EPL, they are not good enough. We do have good technical players, maybe not as good as say Columbia or Holland, but they are not as bad as the Trap years would suggest. In terms of players, Samaras played quite well in a very limited Greek side, if Stokes was mentioned for Ireland many fans would nearly have a seizure. However, we do have better players than him!
What we have to do is play to our strengths and to start to build with the future in mind too. The last time I feel we played the way we can was against the French in Paris. I remember when McGeady went on the counter attack in that game, the French were worried. Has he really been given licence to do this on a regular basis in the last few years, I would suggest no. We need to place an emphasis on players who are technically competent and become more offensive in design. The players need to have a say in the style we develop. We need to think outside the box and take risks. I would love to see a defence of Coleman, Duffy, SSL and Wilson. Yes, I know some aren't getting regular football and lack experience, but this is a defence that will be around for a long time and can grow in stature. I think we need to move on from O'Shea and I will be shot for this, Dunne. Great servants, but now let's build for the future.
Midfield is where I feel we can really improve after Trap. If we played 4 in midfield, Gibson, McCarthy, McGeady and possibly Brady are technically good (Has Gibson said he will play for us again?) and are far more offensive than what we have experienced over the last six years. Upfront, I would start with Long and McGoldrick who are busy bees and again technically sound, with Robbie to come on after 60 minutes. I know I will be flayed alive for this team which I believe is technically sound, hopefully adventurous and one that will be around for a while. If we wanted to play a 451 formation, drop McGoldrick and bring in Hoolahan. I suppose what I am trying to say is the WC has hopefully given all of us reasons to believe and be optimistic going forward. We have two good coaches in Roy and MON, give them time to implement their ideas. COYBIG in Euro 16 qualifying!

[Stuttgart88]

Agree with the sentiment but not the selections.

And, eh, Gibson actually got injured playing for us!

[gastric]

Agree with the sentiment but not the selections.

And, eh, Gibson actually got injured playing for us!

D'oh how the hell did I forget that! Stutts, out of interest what would your ideal selection be?

[Stuttgart88]

D'oh how the hell did I forget that! Stutts, out of interest what would your ideal selection be?

Forde, for now at least
Coleman-OShea-CB2-Wilson
McCarthy Gibson
McGeady Hoolahan Brady
Long or Doyle

Maybe Wilson or Delaney at CB or Dunne if he's in good shape. I'd be tempted to go with Clark at LB if Wilson is CB.

I think McLean, Pilkington and Brady are all good players with some part to play. I still believe Andy Reid can do a job this campaign. I'm not sure which of Long or Doyle. Both need to step up performances at club level.

I'd give Stokes a chance somewhere along the line if I could.

Gibson must impress or run the risk of Meyler or Hendrick taking that spot. Maybe Hendrick has more bite.

It's such a shame that the summer tour, while possibly putting some people down the order, failed to elevate people other than Meyler and Hendock up the order. There are still an awful lot of open questions.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Which is why it'll be a miracle if they achieve anything with this group of players..

[Fixer82]

Forde, for now at least
Coleman-OShea-CB2-Wilson
McCarthy Gibson
McGeady Hoolahan Brady
Long or Doyle

Maybe Wilson or Delaney at CB or Dunne if he's in good shape. I'd be tempted to go with Clark at LB if Wilson is CB.

I think McLean, Pilkington and Brady are all good players with some part to play. I still believe Andy Reid can do a job this campaign. I'm not sure which of Long or Doyle. Both need to step up performances at club level.

I'd give Stokes a chance somewhere along the line if I could.

Gibson must impress or run the risk of Meyler or Hendrick taking that spot. Maybe Hendrick has more bite.

It's such a shame that the summer tour, while possibly putting some people down the order, failed to elevate people other than Meyler and Hendock up the order. There are still an awful lot of open questions.

Good team.
i'd have Keane up front though and Reid interchangeable with Hoolahan depending on who's on form. Brady on the left would be great if he can stay injury free.

I think Dunne can manage one more campaign

[gastric]

Forde, for now at least
Coleman-OShea-CB2-Wilson
McCarthy Gibson
McGeady Hoolahan Brady
Long or Doyle



Maybe Wilson or Delaney at CB or Dunne if he's in good shape. I'd be tempted to go with Clark at LB if Wilson is CB.

I think McLean, Pilkington and Brady are all good players with some part to play. I still believe Andy Reid can do a job this campaign. I'm not sure which of Long or Doyle. Both need to step up performances at club level.

I'd give Stokes a chance somewhere along the line if I could.

Gibson must impress or run the risk of Meyler or Hendrick taking that spot. Maybe Hendrick has more bite.

It's such a shame that the summer tour, while possibly putting some people down the order, failed to elevate people other than Meyler and Hendock up the order. There are still an awful lot of open questions.

Not too different Stutts from mine. I forgot to include a goalkeeper, Westwood would be my choice. Ardee, normally we are of the same opinion, but I disagree with you. I think with this bunch of players and a more positive, adventurous approach, we can do okay!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye but a long way between ''OK" and automatic qualification IMO.

[geysir]

Qualification is not that big of a target for a 24 team Euros, even Trap managed one Finals and nearly managed it another time. The big deal is to go to the Finals after scrapping it out with Poland and Scotland and do ourselves proud against the better teams.

[tricky_colour]

Well Brazil lost 7-1 to Germany and we only lost 6-1 so comforting to know we are better than Brazil.
Our follow up 3-0 defeat shows what a strong side we have become.

[tricky_colour]

Not too different Stutts from mine. I forgot to include a goalkeeper, Westwood would be my choice. Ardee, normally we are of the same opinion, but I disagree with you. I think with this bunch of players and a more positive, adventurous approach, we can do okay!

We are that strong these days we will probably do just fine without a keeper.

[OwlsFan]

Qualification is not that big of a target for a 24 team Euros, even Trap managed one Finals and nearly managed it another time. The big deal is to go to the Finals after scrapping it out with Poland and Scotland and do ourselves proud against the better teams.

One step at a time. It is a BIG target to qualify. We can worry about doing well against the big teams afterwards.

[Stuttgart88]

I agree. Qualification is the big target. Then we reboot and focus on the tournament proper.

I think some historic perspective is needed. I think we have deluded ourselves in some respects given how we had a good record getting out of groups.

Euro 88: some great performances but still "only" 4 points. 3rd in group.
WC90: two ok performances, one awful performance, two resolute / competitive performances. Nothing on a par with Hannover though. Two goals scored, both from opposition mistakes. No games won after 90 or 120 minutes.
WC94: one great performance, one ok and two muck. Two goals scored, one game in four won.
WC02: two decent (although the German appraisal has become a bit revisionist - Germany wasted a hatful of chances), one good and one really ballsy performance (Spain). We actually scored a few goals for a change.
Eur12: 3 defeats. One for, lots against. Caveat being it was a very hard group.

I'm not trying to revise downwards the appreciation of what went before, just trying to show that even in our heyday we found it hard to impress on the big stage. It's hard and this World Cup showed how the second-placed European teams struggled. Only France did well and they're not your typical European second seed.

Qualify, hope for a good draw, play well, get some luck and only then is progress beyond group stage feasible I reckon.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Qualification is not that big of a target for a 24 team Euros, even Trap managed one Finals and nearly managed it another time. The big deal is to go to the Finals after scrapping it out with Poland and Scotland and do ourselves proud against the better teams.

Agreed, just don't think we have the quality. or more importantly the commitment of the players.


One step at a time. It is a BIG target to qualify. We can worry about doing well against the big teams afterwards.
Exactly.


I agree. Qualification is the big target. Then we reboot and focus on the tournament proper.

I think some historic perspective is needed. I think we have deluded ourselves in some respects given how we had a good record getting out of groups.

Euro 88: some great performances but still "only" 4 points. 3rd in group.
WC90: two ok performances, one awful performance, two resolute / competitive performances. Nothing on a par with Hannover though. Two goals scored, both from opposition mistakes. No games won after 90 or 120 minutes.
WC94: one great performance, one ok and two muck. Two goals scored, one game in four won.
WC02: two decent (although the German appraisal has become a bit revisionist - Germany wasted a hatful of chances), one good and one really ballsy performance (Spain). We actually scored a few goals for a change.
Eur12: 3 defeats. One for, lots against. Caveat being it was a very hard group.

I'm not trying to revise downwards the appreciation of what went before, just trying to show that even in our heyday we found it hard to impress on the big stage. It's hard and this World Cup showed how the second-placed European teams struggled. Only France did well and they're not your typical European second seed.

Qualify, hope for a good draw, play well, get some luck and only then is progress beyond group stage feasible I reckon.
Fair assessment of the past, the future is far more uncertain. For reasons see above and posts passim.
My money is on us missing out in the play-offs.

[Stuttgart88]

I hope you're wrong about the commitment. That would be the worst indictment of all.

We'll see about the quality. I'm not as downbeat as you are on that front but goals are a worry. I'd like to think we can at least go toe to toe with Scotland and Poland.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Look at the last 5 years or so, the number of pull-out/withdrawals is shocking. Hence some of the muppets who've appeared in a green shirt.