Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[ArdeeBhoy]

More like Deja vu. Revisited.

[DannyInvincible]

Whatever about his lack of affinity for Ireland, his honesty and transparency is refreshing, and he did at least ease a few doubts over his ability with his performance on Tuesday.

But who even says he has a lack of affinity? He's been to Ireland in his youth; it's part of his heritage and he's now embracing it. Just because he mentioned the greater likelihood of getting a game for Ireland as being a motivating factor in his decision, doesn't mean it was the only factor that motivated him to the exclusion of all other possible factors. If you're being truly genuine in what you're posting, you need to do some serious work on your logical reasoning. You surely realise what you're doing?

[SwanVsDalton]

So MON's still having a think about things. After a year in charge.

Isn't that better than the same-old we saw under Trap?

The performance wasn't there, but Scotland showed MON can show some imagination in selection and is willing to make picks on a match-to-match basis. I'd rather have that combined with an overall footballing aesthetic, than just a bog-standard, easy to work out system.

Only the elite in international football can pick the same team, the same way for every game and expect to do well.

[geysir]

So the way it happened is that they were 2 different incidents according to Ken and that his outburst was not to do with Grealish at all.
In Roy's world, being accused of being a 'distraction' is akin to be accused of 'faking it'.
The journalists took their insults on the chin, the truth (being called liars and fabulists) didn't faze them at all.

[ifk101]

Isn't that better than the same-old we saw under Trap?

.........

.

Adaptability and flexibility are desirable but what exactly are we adapting from? Trapattoni's strength was our defined game plan, players knew their roles and what was expected of them. His failing was an inability to adapt and to evolve his game plan. There was no plan B so to speak. There is a sense we are rudderless under MON, that we don't have a plan A to build on.

[SwanVsDalton]

Adaptability and flexibility are desirable but what exactly are we adapting from? Trapattoni's strength was our defined game plan, players knew their roles and what was expected of them. His failing was an inability to adapt and to evolve his game plan. There was no plan B so to speak. There is a sense we are rudderless under MON, that we don't have a plan A to build on.

I disagree. It's hasn't come off all the time so far, but I can see more purposeful play under O'Neill than we did over the last couple of years under Trapattoni. We play it a bit more on the deck, even if we often revert to type and give it a hoof (ie against Scotland).

I'd like to see that develop into a more tangible brand of identity but I don't think it's unfair for a manager to still be working on that. As I said, only elite teams can do this quickly unless they go for the rigid Trapattoni special.

For now, I'll take the uncertainty of MONs flexible approach.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I am a pragmatist and a realist.

I don't equate acquiring a passport to become eligible to play competitive Intl. football with embracing your heritage or having an affinity to the country you declare for.

I am sure Deco, Emmanuel Olisadebe and Eduardo had an affinity with Portugal, Poland and Croatia after they declared but it doesn't have much to do with what I'm saying TBCH.

Anyways, I appreciate Christie's honesty in a way. And on the basis of that one game, he has potential.

How times change! I remember Zat Knight saying virtually the same thing as Christie and people were firmly against his call up; this was ten odd years ago.

[OwlsFan]

How times change! I remember Zat Knight saying virtually the same thing as Christie and people were firmly against his call up; this was ten odd years ago.

You remember that as a 9 year old? Fair dues.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't equate acquiring a passport to become eligible to play competitive Intl. football with embracing your heritage or having an affinity to the country you declare for.

Well, whatever might or might not constitute an affinity with Ireland for you - who are you to dictate anyway? - it's unfair for you to so presumptuously dismiss the notion that Christie might have such an affinity and an appreciation for his Irish heritage when you don't even know the guy and have heard wind of a grand total of one or two interviews with him. Why do you think it's reasonable to jump to such conclusions? Even if he did have f*ck all affinity for Ireland, you don't have enough information available to you to know.


I am sure Deco, Emmanuel Olisadebe and Eduardo had an affinity with Portugal, Poland and Croatia after they declared but it doesn't have much to do with what I'm saying TBCH.

So what are you saying? As a pragmatist?


How times change! I remember Zat Knight saying virtually the same thing as Christie and people were firmly against his call up; this was ten odd years ago.

But Knight never declared. He spent his career wavering, didn't he? Christie made his decision quickly and is committed to us. That has to count for something.

[tricky_colour]

I am a pragmatist and a realist.

I don't equate acquiring a passport to become eligible to play competitive Intl. football with embracing your heritage or having an affinity to the country you declare for.

I am sure Deco, Emmanuel Olisadebe and Eduardo had an affinity with Portugal, Poland and Croatia after they declared but it doesn't have much to do with what I'm saying TBCH.

Anyways, I appreciate Christie's honesty in a way. And on the basis of that one game, he has potential.

How times change! I remember Zat Knight saying virtually the same thing as Christie and people were firmly against his call up; this was ten odd years ago.

There is no requirement to "embracing your heritage or have an affinity" with any particular country,
all that is required is to be eligible under the rules, and there is nothing in the rules about either.

Indeed to slightly contradict my self there, he is embracing his heritage by declaring for
the country of his ancestors, so all you are left with is "having an affinity" and I might have
an affinity with India due to a love of chicken vindaloo, but should that be enough to make
me eligible?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

He said that his reasons for declaring were a higher chance of first team football and less players ahead of him in the pecking order. That's straight from the horses mouth. And there is no rule bending here. He is eligible under the rules but let's please not try and justify it and act like there was anything else factoring in his reasoning other than professional reasons.

I'm not enamoured with it TBH. I would rather Irish players and players that feel Irish to play for Ireland and I'm not the only one. Indeed fans aren't the only ones (Cunningham, Harte, Kitson, Barton, Kerr) all have the same viewpoint as me and all, Barton aside, have spoken eloquently on the matter. Let's respect each others viewpoints, eh?

It's not up to me though, bottom line, so as long as the boy has talent and application - that's all you can ask for.

[tricky_colour]

He said that his reasons for declaring were a higher chance of first team football and less players ahead of him in the pecking order. That's straight from the horses mouth. And there is no rule bending here. He is eligible under the rules but let's please not try and justify it and act like there was anything else factoring in his reasoning other than professional reasons.

I'm not enamoured with it TBH. I would rather Irish players and players that feel Irish to play for Ireland and I'm not the only one. Indeed fans aren't the only ones (Cunningham, Harte, Kitson, Barton, Kerr) all have the same viewpoint as me and all, Barton aside, have spoken eloquently on the matter. Let's respect each others viewpoints, eh?

It's not up to me though, bottom line, so as long as the boy has talent and application - that's all you can ask for.

The fact is he is eligible there are too players who are eligible who do not want to play for career reasons.

He said he was delighted to pull on the shirt.


Have you got a link to the relevant article?

[Stuttgart88]

I think there us a bit of wordsmithery going on. Afaik he was asked when the call came and he answered that when it did he had no hesitation because his chances of playing were good and this was a real incentive. So, yes, a high likelihood of playing made it attractive. That's not to say other factors don't make it attractive too. I think too much is read in to relatively inarticulate people having a mike stuffed in their face.

I see TOWK's point but I think it's exaggerated. Here is a good player, very happy to be involved, committed immediately and as eligible as many others. At first glance he looks better than Doherty but Doherty will still get his chance if he and Wolves continue to do well.

[tetsujin1979]

I am a pragmatist and a realist.

I don't equate acquiring a passport to become eligible to play competitive Intl. football with embracing your heritage or having an affinity to the country you declare for.

I am sure Deco, Emmanuel Olisadebe and Eduardo had an affinity with Portugal, Poland and Croatia after they declared but it doesn't have much to do with what I'm saying TBCH.

Anyways, I appreciate Christie's honesty in a way. And on the basis of that one game, he has potential.

How times change! I remember Zat Knight saying virtually the same thing as Christie and people were firmly against his call up; this was ten odd years ago.
How do you resolve the conflicts between the those two ideologies?

[tricky_colour]

http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2014/11/13/sp-derby-defender-reveals-he-rejected-england-u21-interest-for-r/

On the decision to snub England's advances for Ireland, the Coventry-born defender commented (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/european-championships/christie-hopes-to-ignite-his-career-by-wearing-the-green-30738196.html):
'I always knew about the Irish connection and it was one that I wanted to do.'

'England under-21s were in touch with me at the same time but Ireland was the best option for me.'





I came over (to Dublin) when I was younger. I can't really remember much about it but I was over when I was younger. She lives in England now but some of my family are over here. They live not far from here (Malahide)."Yeah, I always knew about the Irish connection and it was one that I wanted to do.


So that is quite clear, it is in the past tense, he don't say "it is the one I want to do now", he
said "that is the one I wanted to do".

Anyhow he is happy with his decision which he describes as a "no brainer", I am happy with it
too as is MON OK, maybe TOWK is not so happy, but as the saying goes:-

You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

[DannyInvincible]

He said that his reasons for declaring were a higher chance of first team football and less players ahead of him in the pecking order.

He spoke of contributing factors. He didn't say those reasons were to the exclusion of all others. Stop being disingenuous by again attempting to suggest he said something he quite obviously didn't. The distinction can't be that difficult to grasp? Just because those were two factors in his decision, it doesn't mean there can't have been any other contributory factors and just because he didn't mention other reasons to your satisfaction doesn't mean you can fill in the significant gaps in your knowledge by jumping to rash conclusions. Thing is, as tricky highlights above, he did mention his Irish roots as being a contributing factor anyway.

Are you really a pragmatist? You struck me as more of an unforgiving purist.

[gastric]

I am a pragmatist and a realist.

I don't equate acquiring a passport to become eligible to play competitive Intl. football with embracing your heritage or having an affinity to the country you declare for.

I am sure Deco, Emmanuel Olisadebe and Eduardo had an affinity with Portugal, Poland and Croatia after they declared but it doesn't have much to do with what I'm saying TBCH.

Anyways, I appreciate Christie's honesty in a way. And on the basis of that one game, he has potential.

How times change! I remember Zat Knight saying virtually the same thing as Christie and people were firmly against his call up; this was ten odd years ago.


You are more delusional than anything else and YBIG might be a better forum for you. I now await the pained martyr reply of no one loves me or understands me!

[DeLorean]

I am a pragmatist and a realist.


I'm not enamoured with it TBH. I would rather Irish players and players that feel Irish to play for Ireland and I'm not the only one.

So you're actually an idealist!

You call yourself a pragmatist and then say you're not enamoured with a decision that's the absolute definition of pragmatism.

[DannyInvincible]

You remember that as a 9 year old? Fair dues.

Is TOWK actually 19? I thought he was about 12! :p

[DeLorean]

Roberto responds...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eejsBC9x52s

[DannyInvincible]

Which comments of Keane's in relation to Martinez and the fitness of the players were actually serious? I've read that some (especially those about it being a miracle when James and Seamie turn up being able to walk) were made in humour, but does Roy really believe that sit-down talks are needed? If this is and has been a feeling within the camp generally, it's something that should already have been communicated to Everton in an official capacity/something that should have been acted upon before now.

[Stuttgart88]

The Guardian today says that the McCarthy injury was shown to be a grade one tear which has a typical 2 week recovery period, so if James was to play this weekend it'd be completely normal.

I haven't included the link because I read that in the print edition this morning whereas the online edition doesn't contain that quote.

It's hard to tell what's happening. Of course Martinez is going to protect his players' integrity and at the same time it's in his interests that they sit out an international break if they have an injury concern. Keane might be right to be suspicious but overall it means that the more excitable public start to question the players' commitment and the whole thing could probably be handled better by private conversation, not a game of media tennis.

[ArdeeBhoy]

In a way, this is hardly news. Club managers just aren't interested and are usually happier when their players don't play...

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

He was in Ireland when he was a prepubescent, he doesn't really remember it and he knew about the connection and it was one he wanted to do. OK that's me proven wrong so.

I said that he is fully entitled to declare for Ireland and MON is fully entitled to call him up. I even complimented his performance against USA and admitted that on first glance I may have been proven wrong about Doherty being a better option but I'm sorry his reasons for Ireland don't sit well with me and no amount of justifying it will change my mind.

There are people (Kilbane, McCarthy & McGeady) who do feel genuinely Irish and it trivialises things when you compare the likes of them to the likes of Christie.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Who cares? Half the Diaspora 20 years ago or so hadn't even set foot in the country!!!

[DannyInvincible]

He was in Ireland when he was a prepubescent, he doesn't really remember it and he knew about the connection and it was one he wanted to do. OK that's me proven wrong so.

What's wrong with you? If I point it out to you again, you'll no doubt accuse me of being patronising, but you really don't seem to get it (or you are being intentionally obtuse for dramatic effect).


I said that he is fully entitled to declare for Ireland and MON is fully entitled to call him up. I even complimented his performance against USA and admitted that on first glance I may have been proven wrong about Doherty being a better option but I'm sorry his reasons for Ireland don't sit well with me and no amount of justifying it will change my mind.

What's pragmatic about that? :confused:


There are people (Kilbane, McCarthy & McGeady) who do feel genuinely Irish and it trivialises things when you compare the likes of them to the likes of Christie.

So, what's the solution to your problem? It's easy to snipe from the sidelines, but you're all bluster when it really comes down to it.

[DeLorean]

I enjoy Keane for the most part but I think his comment about Martinez possibly not understanding Senior International Football, as he never played it, was silly and obviously meant as a dig. His comment regarding JG's father was potentially counter productive too, even if it was meant in good humour, which is debatable. I don't expect him to walk on eggshells but I do expect him to see the bigger picture and the potential damage his comments can cause.

[DeLorean]

I said that he is fully entitled to declare for Ireland and MON is fully entitled to call him up. I even complimented his performance against USA and admitted that on first glance I may have been proven wrong about Doherty being a better option but I'm sorry his reasons for Ireland don't sit well with me and no amount of justifying it will change my mind.

Why did you think Doherty was a better option in the first place? Had you really seen enough of either player to have an opinion?

Same with Keogh and Pearce... you said time and time again that Pearce should be ahead of Keogh in the pecking order, now after one friendly you're saying you're just as nervous with Pearce or Clark as you are with Keogh, a friendly Clark actually played well in. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but your opinion is often based on very limited knowledge of what you've actually witnessed yourself. Nearly everybody on here admits they haven't seen enough of such and such a guy to comment, but you just pull the trigger regardless.

Can you explain how you're a pragmatist again please?

A pragmatist is someone who is pragmatic, that is to say, someone who is practical and focused on reaching a goal. A pragmatist usually has a straightforward, matter-of-fact approach and doesn't let emotion distract them.

Is this not the complete opposite to how you feel about Christie's inclusion?

[RiffRaff]

I'm no fan of Keane but part of me thinks MON may be glad to have him as bad bad cop. Martinez has a history of discouraging players from playing for Ireland and the Grealishs are dicking us about at this point. MON can't come out and say it but Keane can and while it gets written off as more Keane rantings, i'm sure it will have given the recipients of the criticism something to think about. If Grealish doesnt do enough to warrant an England call up, this debate will go on for years like Stephen Ireland and Kevin Nolan. Somebody has the force the decision so everyone can move on. If he wants to play for us great, if not move on. Martinez is also likely to think carefully about persuding his players to drop out from now on knowing how it might be perceived.

[DeLorean]

Good points in fairness.

[DannyInvincible]

Nearly everybody on here admits they haven't seen enough of such and such a guy to comment, but you just pull the trigger regardless.

Bang on. When it happens to hit the target, there is, of course, the inflated "I told you so", but when it misses, it's just swept under the carpet and we get Paul still telling us they're both always right. It's insufferable, as if the rash knee-jerkism wasn't enough to rile you!


I'm no fan of Keane but part of me thinks MON may be glad to have him as bad bad cop. Martinez has a history of discouraging players from playing for Ireland and the Grealishs are dicking us about at this point. MON can't come out and say it but Keane can and while it gets written off as more Keane rantings, i'm sure it will have given the recipients of the criticism something to think about. If Grealish doesnt do enough to warrant an England call up, this debate will go on for years like Stephen Ireland and Kevin Nolan. Somebody has the force the decision so everyone can move on. If he wants to play for us great, if not move on. Martinez is also likely to think carefully about persuding his players to drop out from now on knowing how it might be perceived.

That would be to assume Martinez does try and persuade his players to drop out though even if fit to play. :p Do we think he tries to discourage Gibson and McGeady from international football too, and, if not, why not?

On Grealish, it is not he who is allowing this matter to be prolonged. If anything, we are allowing ourselved to be "dicked about". If we want the matter dealt with once and for all, we can issue the lad an snappy ultimatum; commit now or never. It's not what I would personally advocate, but control of the matter is in our hands and we could easily take ownership of it if we weren't so fearful of losing his talent. It's politics rather than principles that are governing the situation. That's not necessarily to say that he isn't committed; things have been a bit up-in-the-air since his father's remarks about the US friendly squad, but his words prior to the announcement of the squad were suggestive of a positive move towards commitment.

Likewise, the Martinez matter is something that we can manage ourselves. We have the power to call players over for assessment. If the players are fully fit, we should have the courage to acknowledge we're in the right and play them. If the players themselves don't feel right for whatever reason, we can't compel them to play. If we think having a talk with Martinez and Everton might help ensure players will not feel pressure from the club to rest in future, then we should arrange that. It should have been arranged right after the Germany if there was scepticism then.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Why did you think Doherty was a better option in the first place? Had you really seen enough of either player to have an opinion?

Same with Keogh and Pearce... you said time and time again that Pearce should be ahead of Keogh in the pecking order, now after one friendly you're saying you're just as nervous with Pearce or Clark as you are with Keogh, a friendly Clark actually played well in. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but your opinion is often based on very limited knowledge of what you've actually witnessed yourself. Nearly everybody on here admits they haven't seen enough of such and such a guy to comment, but you just pull the trigger regardless.

Can you explain how you're a pragmatist again please?

A pragmatist is someone who is pragmatic, that is to say, someone who is practical and focused on reaching a goal. A pragmatist usually has a straightforward, matter-of-fact approach and doesn't let emotion distract them.

Is this not the complete opposite to how you feel about Christie's inclusion?

I've seen enough of Doherty at youth team level and club level to believe that he warrants an International call up. I haven't seen enough of Christie to warrant an opinion on him. Though I am not the one pushing for his inclusion in the starting line up for the Poland game based on one friendly match, in which he had several FIFA style attacking forays he would not get in a competitive situation against a better standard of team, and also several nervous defensive moments.

I have said Pearce is better than Keogh and I maintain that. I maintain Delaney should be in the squad ahead of both of them. Clark is a better player but his form has regressed over the last two years and he was noticeably shaky against U.S.A. Maybe people need to go back to the Portugal match thread and look through some of their own comments before pointing contradictions at me.

Excuse me, I'm not the one getting emotional. I am saying that Christie could be a useful option but at the same time his reasons for declaring for Ireland do not sit well with me. It's not my fault people are getting so worked up over my opinions.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Bang on. When it happens to hit the target, there is, of course, the inflated "I told you so", but when it misses, it's just swept under the carpet and we get Paul still telling us they're both always right. It's insufferable, as if the rash knee-jerkism wasn't enough to rile you!



That would be to assume Martinez does try and persuade his players to drop out though even if fit to play. :p Do we think he tries to discourage Gibson and McGeady from international football too, and, if not, why not?

On Grealish, it is not he who is allowing this matter to be prolonged. If anything, we are allowing ourselved to be "dicked about". If we want the matter dealt with once and for all, we can issue the lad an snappy ultimatum; commit now or never. It's not what I would personally advocate, but control of the matter is in our hands and we could easily take ownership of it if we weren't so fearful of losing his talent. It's politics rather than principles that are governing the situation. That's not necessarily to say that he isn't committed; things have been a bit up-in-the-air since his father's remarks about the US friendly squad, but his words prior to the announcement of the squad were suggestive of a positive move towards commitment.

Likewise, the Martinez matter is something that we can manage ourselves. We have the power to call players over for assessment. If the players are fully fit, we should have the courage to acknowledge we're in the right and play them. If the players themselves don't feel right for whatever reason, we can't compel them to play. If we think having a talk with Martinez and Everton might help ensure players will not feel pressure from the club to rest in future, then we should arrange that. It should have been arranged right after the Germany if there was scepticism then.


What are you babbling on about now? I complimented Christie & McGoldrick on their debuts and said I may have been hasty in saying Doherty was a better option but lads it's one match like. What more do you want from me? "Swept under the carpet" LOL

Almost a year ago, I said that Grealish was not 100% committed to Ireland and deciphered from his media comments that he was unsure he wanted to stick with Ireland. Other people, at times quite belligerently, maintained otherwise. In August, he declined an invitation to join the squad, which MON said himself, despite people's vehement protests to the contrary, maintaining that he wanted more time to think about it. He then declined an U-21 call up stating that he was focused on signing a new contract; new contract signed; he declined a second U-21 call up stating that he was focused on breaking into the Aston Villa first team.

I haven't ranted or raved (to the contrary), I haven't made any fallacious statements about Grealish and I haven't insulted him at any stage.

Did I receive any apologies for some of the belittling comments I received over the course of the last 9 months. No, I didn't. Just more mocking and condescension. :rolleyes:

And you know fully well, Danny, that my problem with you goes no further than you being completely incapable of letting something go, making insulting comments about my posts and opinions and all around belligerence directed at me which I haven't reciprocated.

But I'm sure you will put me in my place again with another lengthy diatribe that is full of the same hypotheses I am supposedly guilty of and alternately accuse me of playing the victim, seeking pity or WUMMING because my opinions rub you the wrong way.

[DannyInvincible]

Maybe people need to go back to the Portugal match thread and look through some of their own comments before pointing contradictions at me.

Typical deflection... Why not face up to and follow through on arguments in which you originally purport to have an interest? You could at least attempt to reconcile or explain your own apparent contradictions? What do other people's alleged contradictions have to do with yours? They're completely irrelevant.


Excuse me, I'm not the one getting emotional. I am saying that Christie could be a useful option but at the same time his reasons for declaring for Ireland do not sit well with me. It's not my fault people are getting so worked up over my opinions.

If you're a pragmatist, why bang on about what you perceive to be the one or two single reasons for his declaration so dramatically?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Contd....

Gibson & McGeady are squad players. Coleman & McCarthy play every game. That's the rub. I couldn't be arsed saying anything more on the situation but O'Neill has hinted at unease with the way Everton are doing things and Keane has outright voiced his opinion on it. I'm sure the same thing will arise again when we play Poland in March and Everton are competing on several fronts. We're under enough pressure as it is without Martinez getting in McCarthy & Coleman's heads.

I can't understand why people said back in October that we were right to be diplomatic when dealing with Everton and take their word over McCarthy & Coleman's injuries, yet are now saying that it is down to our incompetence that we didn't dig our heels in and have them sent over for assessment.

Stoke allowed a player with a far more serious injury to link up with the Ireland squad, be assessed, respected his (and our) wishes; giving him every chance to participate in the game.

I wish there was more transparency on Everton's side.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Typical deflection... Why not face up to and follow through on arguments in which you originally purport to have an interest? You could at least attempt to reconcile or explain your own apparent contradictions? What do other people's alleged contradictions have to do with yours? They're completely irrelevant.



If you're a pragmatist, why bang on about what you perceive to be the one or two single reasons for his declaration so dramatically?

Eh I'm not banging on about them dramatically. It's not my fault that my comments draw such ire and attract derision like moths are drawn to flames.

"Typical deflection". I am following through on arguments in spite of your babblings and derision. It's okay for people to label my statements as contradictory - which they weren't - while ignoring some of their own then? Funny how I haven't heard a squeak from people about why they were so assertive that Grealish was fully committed to Ireland and would never entertain switching to England.

[Charlie Darwin]

Funny how I haven't heard a squeak from people about why they were so assertive that Grealish was fully committed to Ireland and would never entertain switching to England.
Who said that?

[DeLorean]

I've seen enough of Doherty at youth team level and club level to believe that he warrants an International call up. I haven't seen enough of Christie to warrant an opinion on him.

Exactly. You hadn't seen enough of Christie but you still thought Doherty should have been called up ahead of him. My whole point.


Excuse me, I'm not the one getting emotional. I am saying that Christie could be a useful option but at the same time his reasons for declaring for Ireland do not sit well with me.

But those reasons are more emotional than practical i.e. not at all pragmatic. Again, my whole point.

[DannyInvincible]

What are you babbling on about now? I complimented Christie & McGoldrick on their debuts and said I may have been hasty in saying Doherty was a better option but lads it's one match like. What more do you want from me? "Swept under the carpet" LOL

Almost a year ago, I said that Grealish was not 100% committed to Ireland and deciphered from his media comments that he was unsure he wanted to stick with Ireland. Other people, at times quite belligerently, maintained otherwise. In August, he declined an invitation to join the squad, which MON said himself, despite people's vehement protests to the contrary, maintaining that he wanted more time to think about it. He then declined an U-21 call up stating that he was focused on signing a new contract; new contract signed; he declined a second U-21 call up stating that he was focused on breaking into the Aston Villa first team.

I haven't ranted or raved (to the contrary), I haven't made any fallacious statements about Grealish and I haven't insulted him at any stage.

Did I receive any apologies for some of the belittling comments I received over the course of the last 9 months. No, I didn't. Just more mocking and condescension. :rolleyes:

And you know fully well, Danny, that my problem with you goes no further than you being completely incapable of letting something go, making insulting comments about my posts and opinions and all around belligerence directed at me which I haven't reciprocated.

But I'm sure you will put me in my place again with another lengthy diatribe that is full of the same hypotheses I am supposedly guilty of and alternately accuse me of playing the victim, seeking pity or WUMMING because my opinions rub you the wrong way.

You're opinions don't rub me the wrong way at all. You know this. I don't know why you keep saying that. You obviously can't think that. Even SvD pointed that out to you in very clear terms the other day. It's your suspect, agenda-driven "reasoning" that irritates me, as you well know. It gets me because you've clearly got enough intelligence for self-awareness, so I have to assume you're simply stirring.

It's not that I won't let something go; it's that I don't like malicious bull**** being swept under the carpet. If you feel I'm constantly pestering you for answers, explanations, and clarifications, it's only because there are so many questions you've rashly invited upon yourself that you've simply decided to ignore. It's poor manners to give the impression you're interested in a serious discussion and then engage in deflection and deceit. Do you think my exasperation isn't related to the way you conduct yourself?

You claimed you were right on Grealish the other day? In what sense are you right and the rest of us wrong? The whole thing is still very-much ambiguous.


I can't understand why people said back in October that we were right to be diplomatic when dealing with Everton and take their word over McCarthy & Coleman's injuries, yet are now saying that it is down to our incompetence that we didn't dig our heels in and have them sent over for assessment.

Who are you referring to, or are you just erecting straw men now? Are you trying to imply that I held those two seemingly conflicting positions? To be clear, I certainly didn't.


I wish there was more transparency on Everton's side.

Aye, but you're a realist, aren't you? :rolleyes: Face up to it that Everton don't owe us anything - we have to look out for our own interests - and you'll have less need to waste your energy moaning about Martinez (who is only doing his job and looking out for his own club's interests).


Eh I'm not banging on about them dramatically. It's not my fault that my comments draw such ire and attract derision like moths are drawn to flames.

Butter wouldn't melt...


"Typical deflection". I am following through on arguments in spite of your babblings and derision. It's okay for people to label my statements as contradictory - which they weren't - while ignoring some of their own then? Funny how I haven't heard a squeak from people about why they were so assertive that Grealish was fully committed to Ireland and would never entertain switching to England.

The contradictions of others have nothing to do with your own. Why are you still talking about them, and, worse, in a seeming attempt to deny your deflection? I don't know where you get the impression that I'm condoning contradiction.

And another straw man there; I don't think anyone would have been in a position to say he would never entertain switching to England. Most people have long acknowledged the ambiguity of the situation without getting overly possessive and paranoid.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

What was the bone of contention between me and certain other people before August? AFAIA I believed Grealish wasn't 100% committed to Ireland and used quotes and facts to back up my point of view. Other people disagree with what I am saying. Lo and behold he isn't 100% committed and is mulling over what country he wants to play for. If that is what you mean by ambiguity and vagueness, then yes, obviously it's ambiguous and vague so much in that sense. The lad needs to make a decision and accept it. Before it becomes any more farcical. Nobody will begrudge whatever decision he makes. He is an adult, as are we, and we will all accept it. What is hard to accept is "dicking around". And I find it hard to believe that communication and transparency from their side has to be an issue when Keane & Grealish are employed by the same club and O'Neill has tried and seemingly failed in attempts to discuss things with them.

I think I conduct myself very well. I think I am very composed. It is not me bringing up other posters (Paul) to back up my view, making accusations, mocking other people's posts and bringing up old wounds on threads.

We are only having this problem with Martinez. We are not having/nor have we had this problem to such an extent with other managers. It is becoming a recurring issue. McCarthy was fit enough to play in the Scotland game. He didn't because his club manager is getting in his head. He is reluctant to let these players go on Intl. duty. Compare his attitude to Sam Allardyce who has never stopped Joey O'Brien from linking up with Ireland and criticised Trapattoni after he publicly doubted that another injury prone player (Reid) was able for the rigors of playing football. Compare it to Mark Hughes. I fully believe that McCarthy & Coleman will play regularly until March when it becomes an issue again.

Again, I would love to know how diplomacy from our side in October becomes incompetence from our side in November. What more can we do? We take their word for it, players aren't sent to be assessed, the extent of their injuries is not sufficiently communicated, a player shows up to be given the all clear to play (and doesn't) and now we hear Everton are reluctant for the other to play in a friendly.

"Butter wouldn't melt". Is there really any need for this?

More namecalling. I'm not paranoid. I'm quite realistic about the issue and have been as far back as January. That's not paranoia, especially if events transpire as you predicted they would.

It wasn't me that accused others of contradiction. I'm just pointing out the same contradiction apparent in others comments.

It's a lose lose situation. I complimented Walters which shows I don't have a grudge against him and whenever I make a comment about Keogh that doesn't criticise him I get mocked or have people making "witty comments" and people accuse me of being hung up over something. :rolleyes:

And I also love how you constantly bring up other posters to validate yourself and then go pigeonholing me and Paul together as this "Us. Vs. Them" kind of thing. Even if it is done jokingly sometimes.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Exactly. You hadn't seen enough of Christie but you still thought Doherty should have been called up ahead of him. My whole point.



But those reasons are more emotional than practical i.e. not at all pragmatic. Again, my whole point.

My point was why pursue an eligible player for a position and call up injured players i.e. Stephen Kelly & Joey O'Brien while ignoring a player who has played with distinction all through the underage levels and has more experience at PL and Championship level and whose form perfectly merited a call up over the last 12 months? That was my point. You can now see a correlation between calling up Kelly and waiting for Christie's documents to go through. During this period of time, Doherty or someone else could have been given a chance instead of calling up someone/people who is/are literally incapable of playing. It's strange management.

Doherty is quite unhappy with the situation. Should he attract the derision I am receiving?

[DeLorean]

I don't understand the point of MON calling up Kelly and company either, but that's not the point and you know it. You felt Doherty should have been called up ahead of Christie, without being able to compare the values of each player. I don't see the sense in that.

[Stuttgart88]

Any idiot could see that Grealish's tweets were cause for some concern wrt whether he could change association. That wasn't the bone of contention. The value judgment associated with it was.

It's hard to tell whether TOWK is being disingenuous in many of these arguments, outright evasive or dishonest, or simply a very cunning WUM who enjoys winding people up because of some sad psychopathic disorder.

SvD summed it up accurately: none of his supposedly radical observations are unique, many are simple enough and widely shared.

[DannyInvincible]

Again, I would love to know how diplomacy from our side in October becomes incompetence from our side in November. What more can we do? We take their word for it, players aren't sent to be assessed, the extent of their injuries is not sufficiently communicated, a player shows up to be given the all clear to play (and doesn't) and now we hear Everton are reluctant for the other to play in a friendly.

Towards whom are you even directing this? I already outlined my position clearly and it doesn't match what you've written there. I didn't applaud any alleged diplomacy. I've always said we've only ourselves to blame if we don't stand up for ourselves and our own interests if they come into conflict with others' interests.

[gastric]

TOWK, take the hint and stop your continued agenda driven posts. They really are becoming a sideshow on here and please take responsibility for what you actually post. Why can't you just debate the merits of players based on their ability rather than their background. Whatever your opinion, Christie is an Irish international now, that's reality, accept it and move on.

[DannyInvincible]

What was the bone of contention between me and certain other people before August? AFAIA I believed Grealish wasn't 100% committed to Ireland and used quotes and facts to back up my point of view. Other people disagree with what I am saying. Lo and behold he isn't 100% committed and is mulling over what country he wants to play for. If that is what you mean by ambiguity and vagueness, then yes, obviously it's ambiguous and vague so much in that sense. The lad needs to make a decision and accept it. Before it becomes any more farcical. Nobody will begrudge whatever decision he makes. He is an adult, as are we, and we will all accept it. What is hard to accept is "dicking around". And I find it hard to believe that communication and transparency from their side has to be an issue when Keane & Grealish are employed by the same club and O'Neill has tried and seemingly failed in attempts to discuss things with them.

The FAI/Martin/Roy could put a stop to this "dicking around" tomorrow if they wanted by issuing Grealish an ultimatum. I'm happy enough to wait until the lad makes a decision that we and he can be completely happy with, but if you're so unenamoured by it all, take your discontent out with the FAI/management for letting this go on. Prior to August, you were passing it off as if he had no sentiment for Ireland and was concealing a secret desire to represent England. Neither of these have been proven to be true/come to be true, so from where you get this notion that you're right on it all, I don't know. Furthermore, you seemed to frown upon the fact that a dual national might have the audacity to be conflicted as to which country to represent. You certainly weren't very empathetic or understanding, if I recall correctly.


I think I conduct myself very well. I think I am very composed. It is not me bringing up other posters (Paul) to back up my view, making accusations, mocking other people's posts and bringing up old wounds on threads.

Sure have one of these why not?:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01299/Blue-Peter_1299227c.jpg


We are only having this problem with Martinez. We are not having/nor have we had this problem to such an extent with other managers. It is becoming a recurring issue. McCarthy was fit enough to play in the Scotland game. He didn't because his club manager is getting in his head. He is reluctant to let these players go on Intl. duty. Compare his attitude to Sam Allardyce who has never stopped Joey O'Brien from linking up with Ireland and criticised Trapattoni after he publicly doubted that another injury prone player (Reid) was able for the rigors of playing football. Compare it to Mark Hughes. I fully believe that McCarthy & Coleman will play regularly until March when it becomes an issue again.

McCarthy was getting over a tear and expressed that he didn't feel good himself. If Martinez secretly dislikes his players playing international football - although he claims otherwise - whilst other managers are all for it, then the lesson there is that different managers have different attitudes and preferences for their players. It still doesn't change the fact that Martinez owes us nothing, although he publicly claimed to have a good relationship with Martin despite Roy's wisecracks. All you do is moan about this; what do you actually want or expect to be done about it? Do you expect something of Martinez and, if so, why? He has no responsibility to Irish football. We have to protect and stick up for our own interests. We can't rely on others to do it for us. It'll only become an issue again in March if we let it become an issue. We'll still have the power to call our players over for medical assessment in March and if there has genuinely been suspicion there since Germany, then we should try and get a sit-down with Martinez pronto to make it clear we'll be playing fit and willing players in future. You'd also like to think our players would have the strength of character to make it clear they aspire to play as much international football as they possibly can.


"Butter wouldn't melt". Is there really any need for this?

You present yourself as the innocent victim when much of what you do on here involves stirring sh*t and winding people up. Does it genuinely surprise you that you provoke the responses you do so often?


More namecalling. I'm not paranoid. I'm quite realistic about the issue and have been as far back as January. That's not paranoia, especially if events transpire as you predicted they would.

As I predicted they would? What are you referring to?


And I also love how you constantly bring up other posters to validate yourself and then go pigeonholing me and Paul together as this "Us. Vs. Them" kind of thing. Even if it is done jokingly sometimes.

Ha, it was Paul who positioned yourself and himself on some superior pedestal of truth; telling it like it is, allegedly. I just thought it was funny because it was complete bull. There's no conspiracy against you. You just rub a lot of people up the wrong way with your carry-on. I make reference to other instances of it now and again to reinforce my own points because you so often pretend to be oblivious to the issues other posters raise with you too. It's a terribly annoying trait that bothers not just myself, but you continue to play dumb to it.

[BonnieShels]

Lads, this madness is making the Ireland forum unreadable of late.

Danny, stop letting him rise you. Some others, including myself have dropped engaging at such a granular level. It's not worth it.

TOWK, I know people get at you and you seem to have it problems with it but it has been brought on yourself. You sometimes can just let things go ya know?

As regards your apparent agenda, I think the concept of you having an agenda is just too bizarre as it is an agenda of sheer inconsequential triviality that I think I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I think it's merely a case of you wanting to always be right.

Anyway, can we give it a rest now? Cheers lads.

[DeLorean]

Exactly, well said. If we keep feeding the beast we've nobody to blame but ourselves. It goes against my better judgement but I do it anyway.

All this Martinez stuff is a bit mad the more I think of it. McCarthy has 24 caps for Ireland, all under Martinez management at club level. He has played in far more Mickey Mouse type games than the ones he's missed recently. Coleman is almost being put in the same bracket just because he missed the German game, when he was clearly injured, as MON accepted himself. I have no suspicion towards Martinez at all, outside of his obvious obligation to put his own team first.

[DannyInvincible]

I know. My bad. I tried for a few days, I really did, but I keep rising to the bait and then end up later regretting it. I try to have faith in people and I like to give everyone a chance (and a second, and a third, it would seem... :p ) by engaging with them where others have dropped out, but there's just no talking to you, TOWK. I'm at a loss. I don't you how you do it; if you're on a wind-up, it's genius and it must require a terrible amount of energy, but if you're not, I dunno what to say really. It just can't be. You're too intelligent to be unable realise what you're doing. I think that's what gets me the most. I keep kidding myself that next time it'll be different, but as you always says, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I'm going to have to stop engaging with you full-stop now because it is polluting the forum and detracting from my own enjoyment and the enjoyment of others; I regret that also.

[ArdeeBhoy]

This is the dullest thread ever...