Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[Fixer82]

I think Daryl was playing most of his football out wide, for club and country then.

Didn't he set one up for Andy Keogh in that Serbia game?

Yep. In that first game of Trap's. Keogh buried it and was picked forever after by Trap.

[Stuttgart88]

there is far too much garbage being portrayed as debate on here presently.Only presently?

Speaking of garbage, "presently" doesn't mean what you think it means. Although maybe you were pre-empting my contribution!

[tetsujin1979]

The match was a feast of lunging in left, right and centre into 50/50 tackles. Somebody was bound to break somebody's leg eventually. As it was, it was Taylor's boot connecting with Coleman's leg.

Sure, Taylor is responsible for that. But, on another day, with two different managers playing different football, it's possible that all 22 players would have left the pitch injury-free.

So, if everything was different, then that tackle wouldn't have happened. Wow.
Taylor is responsible for his own actions, the manager didn't make that tackle. That's the end of the discussion.

[Charlie Darwin]

Well if you don't want to engage me on the McCarthy point then you don't have to.
I did engage you on it. I said I have no idea what O'Neill trying and failing to play an injured player has to do with Taylor snapping Coleman's leg in half.

[seanfhear]

Didn't Roy Keane Psyche everybody up for that match !

Has Roy any tactical ability or is it still back in the day when Roy could Psyche other people out of the game .

[brine3]

That's the end of the discussion.

Right so.

[DannyInvincible]

Roy Keane is at tonight's top-of-the-table clash between Cork and Dundalk in Turners Cross. Would have liked to have seen Martin O'Neill there too as there are at least one or two players on show who might be worth international consideration. Paddy McEleney is definitely one. I'm pretty certain O'Neill is in the country at the minute as the provisional squad for the Moldova and Wales games is to be announced tomorrow (presumably in Dublin) and the FAI released a video of an interview (http://foot.ie/threads/225194-Republic-of-Ireland-V-Moldova-Friday-6th-October-2017-World-Cup-2018-Qualifier?p=1937184&viewfull=1#post1937184) with O'Neill earlier that seemed to have been conducted in one of the Aviva's dressing rooms.

[tetsujin1979]

O'Neill agrees contract extension: https://twitter.com/FAIreland/statuses/915988848131416064

BREAKING: Martin O'Neill has agreed a contract extension and will continue as the Republic of Ireland manager for the EURO 2020 campaign!

[DannyInvincible]

O'Neill agrees contract extension: https://twitter.com/FAIreland/statuses/915988848131416064

It's telling that only about two of the 50 tweets in response to that are positive. I dunno how I feel about it; underwhelmed and disheartened would probably be the best ways of describing it. Is anyone pleased with this news, especially as the campaign hasn't even concluded yet? Wait until we know if we've definitely qualified or not at least and then evaluate the best way forward.

[IsMiseSean]

Terrible decision and even worse timing. What happens if we lose to Moldova & Wales?

[shakermaker1982]

Timing is weird.

If we put in 2 dog **** performances then the FAI will look like a bunch of clowns.

Maybe they are hoping it will give everybody a lift? If we win both games then they'll look like an organisation that knows what it's doing. I've been happy with MO'N but last few performances have been very sterile. If that trend continues then I'd have my reservations. He needs to get a balance between the high intensity style of play we often revert to and an attempt to play football (Wes, Brady & Hendrick on the ball)

[DannyInvincible]

Maybe they are hoping it will give everybody a lift?

Not sure it's had the desired effect. I think most people are like "Ah, y'serious? :rolleyes:" rather than "Ah, brilliant! :D"

[placid casual]

deadful decision by the FAI to give O'Neill and krusty keane the clown a contract extension.
Think it was mentioned elsewhere that in his time with Ireland MON has given precisely 0 players debuts in competitive games..:waiting:

the utter pish we have to watch is uncomfortable to cheer for.
we have no coleman at present, but we also have some utter dross getting their games

[zero]

i think the increased home attendance is playing a big factor here. i'm not overly upset with the extension. the next tournament should be easier to qualify for and MON has no option but to freshen up the team with new players. he probably does deserve another campaign after france and coming reasonably close this time around, though it looks like ending in disappointment.

[tetsujin1979]

deadful decision by the FAI to give O'Neill and krusty keane the clown a contract extension.
Think it was mentioned elsewhere that in his time with Ireland MON has given precisely 0 players debuts in competitive games..:waiting:

the utter pish we have to watch is uncomfortable to cheer for.
we have no coleman at present, but we also have some utter dross getting their games
Why is that a problem?

[paul_oshea]

Not sure it's had the desired effect. I think most people are like "Ah, y'serious? :rolleyes:" rather than "Ah, brilliant! :D"

He means those in and around the squad. You take everything literally Danny :)

But that's how i saw it too it's another delaney masterstroke, oh sure it shows how much faith we have in him and sure wont that get us over the line.

[shakermaker1982]

Yep POS is right I meant the squad itself.

We obviously aren't privy to the squad dynamic but I get the impression the players like and respect MON and RK. A lot of interviews speak very highly of them both. The players probably would prefer to see another 2 years with them at the helm and that will unquestionably have had an impact on the offer of a contract.

The other aspect is that they both have that x factor about them and can put bums on seats and generate interest in the build up to games. The apathy towards England over here at the moment is astounding. Nobody really gives a monkeys about the games. Souhgate is so beige it's rubbing off on their players and reflected in their performances and the crowd itself. If we went went for a less profile name I bet the FAI fear a similar sort of disillusionment on our side of the water. Results should be the most important thing but the FAI need to make some dough.

[seanfhear]

O ‘ Neill and Keane are under pressure to produce results in these two games .

If they don’t produce good results or at the very least good performances then they will be under pressure to do the ‘ right thing '

Lets say we perform badly I wouldn’t be surprised if O’Neill and Keane knew what the right thing is .

[OwlsFan]

Timing is weird.

If we put in 2 dog **** performances then the FAI will look like a bunch of clowns.

Maybe they are hoping it will give everybody a lift? If we win both games then they'll look like an organisation that knows what it's doing. I've been happy with MO'N but last few performances have been very sterile. If that trend continues then I'd have my reservations. He needs to get a balance between the high intensity style of play we often revert to and an attempt to play football (Wes, Brady & Hendrick on the ball)

Timing is ideal to be honest IF the FAI Board decided that they wanted to keep MON irrespective of the results. If they left it until after the two games and we qualify (after play off), his standing goes up, as does his salary demands and his attraction to other Associations/clubs. If we don't qualify, so be it as they wanted MON to carry on. Whether people think he is the man to carry on is another issue. The Board thinks he is and therefore the timing is correct.

[Straightstory]

Terrible decision. Not at all surprised the FAI have done this. At least two more years of miserable and abysmal football ahead. This is the first Euro/World Cup campaign since 1974 where I haven't attended any of the games - so disappointed and disillusioned by O'Neill and Keane.

[Diggs246]

I don't really get why everyone is up in arms, I would rather O'Neill then someone who hasn't the slightest idea about our players going into Euro 2020
Also he has credit in the bank guys
Qualified for 2016, win against Germany world champions, win against Italy in the Euros, win away against Austria, win against Bosnia
I know it hasn't all been good and in fact some of it has been poor, but that's not bad. also we are not out of the world cup yet

[Lionel Ritchie]

I don't believe in change for the sake of change so in the absence of a compelling replacement I'm reasonably happy for him to continue. Though I've stated my unhappiness before with the whole culture around the marquee manager that Delaney has now brought into this.

"some of it has been poor" is an understatement mind. Unless we experience an improbable and utterly unpredictable change in form over the imminent 180 minutes of competetive football then 2017 -that is the entire year -has been an unqualified (no puns) collapse.

[osarusan]

With 2 games to go and qualification still up in the balance (to put it optimistically), it's hard to imagine that the management team have met any targets or benchmarks that applied, unless those benchmarks were extremely generous.

[DannyInvincible]

'FAI may have been too quick to hand Martin O’Neill new contract': https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/1631415/fai-may-have-been-too-quick-to-hand-martin-oneill-new-contract/


If he manages a top-two finish — irrespective of whether it is enough to reach a play-off — there is a strong case for him to be kept on but, right now, it’s too premature to make an assessment of the campaign. If the FAI felt they had to warn off suitors, its stance might make more sense but there is nothing to suggest that.

Rewind 12 years and they refused to extend Brian Kerr’s stay until Ireland’s fate was known. When his side fell short, didn’t keep him on. Trapattoni was given new deals when something tangible was achieved, a play-off spot in 2009 and qualification in 2011. So why the change in tack?

I think O'Riordan makes good points.

[Diggs246]

'FAI may have been too quick to hand Martin O’Neill new contract': https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/1631415/fai-may-have-been-too-quick-to-hand-martin-oneill-new-contract/



I think O'Riordan make good points.

I don't agree RE Trap, Trap had brilliant players of this ilk, who were in their prime: Shay Given, Richard Dunne, Duff, Robbie Keane, John O Shea, Coleman ( didn't use him enough) Wes ( didn't use him enough)James McCarthy ( didn't use him enough) McCLean ( didn't use him enough) Steve Finnan ( didn't use him enough) Stephen Reis ( didn't use him enough) and Andy Reid ( didn't use him)

O' Neill doesn't have that talent to play around with

[tetsujin1979]

I don't agree RE Trap, Trap had brilliant players of this ilk, who were in their prime: Shay Given, Richard Dunne, Duff, Robbie Keane, John O Shea, Coleman ( didn't use him enough) Wes ( didn't use him enough)James McCarthy ( didn't use him enough) McCLean ( didn't use him enough) Steve Finnan ( didn't use him enough) Stephen Reis ( didn't use him enough) and Andy Reid ( didn't use him)

O' Neill doesn't have that talent to play around with
Didn't Finnan retire at the beginning of Trap's reign?

[Diggs246]

Didn't Finnan retire at the beginning of Trap's reign?

No he was another one trap fell out with

[MeathDrog]

Timing is ideal to be honest IF the FAI Board decided that they wanted to keep MON irrespective of the results. If they left it until after the two games and we qualify (after play off), his standing goes up, as does his salary demands and his attraction to other Associations/clubs. If we don't qualify, so be it as they wanted MON to carry on. Whether people think he is the man to carry on is another issue. The Board thinks he is and therefore the timing is correct.
I don't think there's anyone who would be interested in Mon even if we do qualify tbh, certainly not from top tier clubs/associations.

[MeathDrog]

No he was another one trap fell out with
Finnan and Reid were old/crocked by the time Trap came around.

[tetsujin1979]

No he was another one trap fell out with

Trapattoni was the one who convinced him to return: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/aug/13/republicofirelandfootballteam.liverpool

[Diggs246]

http://metro.co.uk/tag/steve-finnan/

He went with McShane instead of Finnan for the play offs against France .... how did that work out

[tetsujin1979]

http://metro.co.uk/tag/steve-finnan/

He went with McShane instead of Finnan for the play offs against France .... how did that work out

He went with O'Shea, McShane came on as a sub. Finnan had only played four games that season after signing for Portsmouth, and missed most of the previous season in Spain.

[Diggs246]

I meant he went woth McShane ahead of Finnan. Finnan and Reid were both fit for the France game

[tetsujin1979]

I meant he went woth McShane ahead of Finnan. Finnan and Reid were both fit for the France game
Finnan wasn't fit, he was taken off for Portsmouth against Wigan at the end of October, and missed their next four games. Didn't play against until early December.

not sure which Reid you mean. Steven was out of the Blackburn team at that time and Andy was out of favour with the manager at the time.

[Fixer82]

McCarthy wasn’t in his prime, he was still a kid at that stage

[geysir]

Aside from O'Neill's hoofball fetish and some dismal slipshod performances, he has had to work with quite a few players who were around in Trap's time and not exactly top notch even when in their prime. Ward is still our best at LB, Whelan still a constant presence, Walters, O'Shea, McClean and Wes is turning 50 soon, though Ward has remained at his consistent level and Murphy has improved since Trap.

There should have been a tacit agreement that there be no new contract discussions until the current qual campaign has finished.

[DannyInvincible]

McCarthy wasn’t in his prime, he was still a kid at that stage

I'm pretty sure Coleman wasn't a settled right-back either until around 2011 or 2012. He was on loan with Blackpool in the Championship during 2010 - where he made nine appearances - and was then appearing on right midfield for Everton for a period after that. He didn't play a huge deal in 2011-12. Was he injured or was that due to a dip in form? His best season to date was undoubtedly 2013-14, which coincided with O'Neill taking over from Trap at international level (in November 2013).

[Fixer82]

Liam Brady: “Denis O’Brien is the benefactor of some of the manager’s wages and would probably say ‘I have nothing to do with it’ but I think he does”.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't believe in change for the sake of change so in the absence of a compelling replacement I'm reasonably happy for him to continue. Though I've stated my unhappiness before with the whole culture around the marquee manager that Delaney has now brought into this.

"some of it has been poor" is an understatement mind. Unless we experience an improbable and utterly unpredictable change in form over the imminent 180 minutes of competetive football then 2017 -that is the entire year -has been an unqualified (no puns) collapse.

I'm sure a viable replacement could have been found if a search was undertaken. Personally, I think Stephen Kenny would have been suitable. I know others wouldn't agree, but I explained my thinking here (http://foot.ie/threads/225025-Next-Ireland-manager?p=1934652&viewfull=1#post1934652) and here (http://foot.ie/threads/225025-Next-Ireland-manager?p=1934808&viewfull=1#post1934808) (although I guess such talk is academic now):


If O'Neill was to be replaced - and it's something I'm growing more and more open to because I think there are superior options out there and we could be utilising our talents much better - I'd like to see either Stephen Kenny or Michael O'Neill in charge. Kenny would be the preference. He does a great job with Dundalk on limited resources and has them playing a fantastic and very much watchable brand of football that also happens to bring positive results. Kenny has worked directly with a few of the players in and around the squad before as well - James McClean, Stephen Ward, Daryl Horgan, Seáni Maguire and Andy Boyle, for example - and I'm sure he would command a broad respect, especially from those who came through or played in the LOI and those who may have encountered him already in some form or another due to that. (When Brian Kerr was put in charge of the senior international team, there seemed to be a disconnect or a lack of respect from the players, possibly on account of Kerr's LOI background at a time when our international players simply didn't come through the LOI, save for the odd exception like Jason Byrne or Glen Crowe who didn't receive a huge deal of international recognition anyway, but I would expect a contrast in how the present group of players would regard Kenny.)

Some further opinion on O'Neill's contract extension from Brian Kerr: https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2017/1006/910222-kerr-on-oneill-contract/


"I think the timing is strange," [Kerr] told RTÉ Radio One’s Morning Ireland programme.

"I think most football people would think it’s a little premature when we haven’t finished the group yet, we have two important games to go. It’s not usually how the board of the FAI and its chief executive have worked in relation to managers in recent times. Also, given that the games are so important, I would have thought that the concentration would have been totally on achieving the two results over the next few days."

And from Paul Doyle in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/oct/05/ireland-world-cup-moldova-martin-o-neill

I thought the following paragraph was both amusing and depressing at the same time in how accurate it was:


Ireland’s matches tend to follow one of two scripts: either they take an early lead and then back off as if they have committed an embarrassing faux pas, as in Georgia last month; or they start sluggishly and then stage a late rally, as in the home draw with Austria in June. Seldom have they have been good for 90 minutes. A lack of control has been a recurring feature. A sensible default prediction for almost any match involving Ireland these days is a draw, because without being defensively sound, they are cussedly hard to beat and grievously lacking in creativity.

[Metrostars]

I always think 2 qualification cycles(WC/EC) is enough for a manager. By the third cycle, the players need changing and managers tend to stick with what he knows.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I'm sure a viable replacement could have been found if a search was undertaken. Personally, I think Stephen Kenny would have been suitable. I know others wouldn't agree, but I explained my thinking here (http://foot.ie/threads/225025-Next-Ireland-manager?p=1934652&viewfull=1#post1934652) and here (http://foot.ie/threads/225025-Next-Ireland-manager?p=1934808&viewfull=1#post1934808) (although I guess such talk is academic now)::

Stephen Kenny is viable. John Sheridan is viable. Even Brian Kerr who I'm certain is factually incorrect in his contract extension related assertion that "It’s not usually how the board of the FAI and its chief executive have worked in relation to managers in recent times*" is a viable option. But I said compelling. ;-)





And from Paul Doyle in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/oct/05/ireland-world-cup-moldova-martin-o-neill

I thought the following paragraph was both amusing and depressing at the same time in how accurate it was: He's bang on. The really pertinent bit being "A lack of control has been a recurring feature". We've sung this old song before.

*Traps contract extension was agreed before we'd qualification in the bag. It's like Delaney is desperate to prostrate himself in a demonstration of faith.

[DannyInvincible]

Craig Bellamy, who played under O'Neill for a few months at Celtic, on O'Neill's management style: https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/craig-bellamy-delivers-the-weirdest-compliment-of-martin-oneills-style-139055


"A lot of the stuff we get taught... throw it out the window. [O'Neill] does the complete opposite," Bellamy said on Sky Sports' coverage of the Wales-Ireland game.

"You won't even see him. There are times he turns up on a Friday. There were times I couldn't tell you what formation we were playing on a Saturday or who was playing - you'd just read the list and it was basically, I had to look at someone else, Neil Lennon, and ask, 'what formation are we playing?'

"There was no information whatsoever but, I'll tell you, he knew his players. You knew where you stood with him and if you played well for him, the confidence he'd give you and the way he'd make you feel, you just want to run even more for him."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHH9HrV2Ct8

[thischarmingman]

Martin O’Neill is in the managerial elite even if a top job eludes him


The Republic of Ireland manager, once the favourite to succeed Sir Alex Ferguson at Manchester United, is unfortunate never to have had a chance at one of the biggest clubs

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/oct/14/martin-oneill-is-in-the-managerial-elite-even-if-a-top-job-eludes-him


t tends to be forgotten, for example, that there was once a time when O’Neill was the overwhelming favourite to take over from Sir Alex Ferguson at Manchester United. O’Neill was managing Celtic at the time, where he won seven trophies and reached the Uefa Cup final, and the Manchester press corps still talk about the 2003 press conference before the two teams played a pre-season fixture in Seattle. When O’Neill was asked about replacing Ferguson he answered with great diplomacy bearing in mind the man himself was directly to his left. Yet the journalist who asked the question was already feeling a pair of Glaswegian eyes boring into his skull. “Don’t worry about him,” Ferguson whispered to O’Neill, quietly enough not to be heard by his audience but loud enough to be picked up by the tapes. Ferguson always sounded extra Glaswegian and talked a little bit quicker when his temper had been roused. “Aye, he’s a ****ing *****.”

[DannyInvincible]

My da came across this whilst going through a few things in the house the other day and showed me:

http://i68.tinypic.com/nfpspi.jpg

It's from a June 1966 copy of the Columban, which was the old school magazine of St. Columb's College in Derry. The photo is of the college's victorious gaelic football team and features Martin O'Neill, my da and the other members of the team, all with their mismatching socks. I thought it was a nice historical memento. :)

[DeLorean]

Class Danny.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Presumably to be kept on, but for how long? What will it take for the trigger to be pulled? Nations League failure, or struggling with Euro qualification?

[IsMiseSean]

With the likelihood of a number of retirements on the horizon, we need to rebuild.
Allowing O'Neill and/or Keane in charge of that task will be a monumental failure.

[Closed Account 2]

What do people think of Slaven Bilic? His Croatia teams played with a superb blend of attacking panache and defensive organisation. They are obviously blessed with better attacking players than us, but in his tenure their back line was similar to ours in terms of ability.

[seanfhear]

After West Ham Bilic needs a good long rest and maybe even to have a good long look at himself and see if being a manger is for him .

He would be a big gamble .

[mark12345]

The Case For O'Neill Staying:
1. He was hired to do a job for the FAI, a job where the goal was to get his team to the World Cup. He came very very close.
2. He has blooded a couple of good players in Callum O'Dowda and Cyrus Christie
3. He has been loyal to his players.
4. Getting rid of O'Neill would mean starting all over again.
5. O'Neill has a good grasp of the Irish scene, whereas a foreign or English manager might not.
6. He restored confidence to the team in that they became hard to score against.


The Case Against O'Neill Staying:

1. Ireland were as lucky as lucky can be in this campaign. We needed teams to do us a series of favors in the final two games and all of the favors came to fruition. It was an uncanny run of luck. We were also lucky in Wales, having defended for most of the ninety minutes and also in Georgia, again having defended for almost ninety minutes.

2. O'Neill's loyalty to his players was a major part of his downfall. It was clear to everyone that he stayed loyal to Glenn Whelan, when he should have jettisoned him for a more capable midfielder. Proof of his wrongdoing regarding Whelan came in the final three games where he stared Arter in his stead (if Whelan was so brilliant why would he drop him for the team's three most crucial games). Also he stayed loyal for far too long to Daryl Murphy. Murphy had scored a goal in Serbia but was not worthy of a place in the starting eleven (many would argue, and rightly so, he wasn't worthy of a place on the subs bench either). Be that as it may, having been picked on the back of a two goal performance against Moldova, Murphy was made the main striker in Cardiff. It was patently obvious after 45 minutes that he was completely ineffective in the role he was playing. Admittedly if he was given a ball or two in front of goal he might have made hay, but under the circumstances he should have been withdrawn at half time in Cardiff. O'Neill's loyalty to his man meant that we had no tip to our spear. We emerged with a victory nonetheless, but there was no apparent evaluation of Daryl's performance and so he was given two subsequent starts against Denmark. Again he should have been withdrawn at half time in Copenhagen - Long or Hogan are far more mobile - and insanely he was started from the off in the Dublin game. Loyalty, blind loyalty from O'Neill cost his team.

3. O'Neill was single handedly responsible for the dropping of two points against Austria. Austria were one of the weakest teams to visit Dublin in years. They were there for the taking, yet we treated them like they were Germany. We played scared - hoofing the ball all day long and paid the price with the goal against us just before half time. We spent the rest of the game chasing the win and, inexplicably, Hoolahan was kept off the pitch until the final twenty minutes. When he came on, Wes changed the game. We got an equaliser and almost a winner. Proof positive that he should have started.

4. Hard to outdo the performance against Austria, Martin hit new depths with the performance in Tblisi. One was left to ask oneself if the players had been instructed to stand in their own penalty area and just kick the ball back to their opponents rather than try something constructive? How could a manager ask his players to do that? He never would - it is the equivalent of football suicide. But, based on the subsequent evidence, that's apparently exactly what Martin O'Neill instructed his players to do.

5. More of the same against Wales. We defended well, no doubt about it, but remember Wales were without their two most creative players (Allen being injured), and got the smash and grab goal.

6. O'Neill basked in the glow of the Cardiff success, and even deserves a modicum of credit for his team's keeping a clean sheet in Copenhagen. But having said after Copenhagen that we needed to be creative in the return leg, the manager left his most influential player off the park from the off. If Hoolahan was not good enough, or not influential enough to play in three quarters of the tie against Denmark, why then bother bringing him on for the final quarter. Very misleading. Did Wes have something to offer the team or not?

7. The sum total of Martin O'Neill's performance as a coach for this campaign was misguided loyalty to his players, and a catalogue of highly questionable decisions regarding team selection. Ultimately it was his suicidal tactics (the performance in Tblisi is beyond reproach) and the style of play he fermented with his players which are most galling