Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane [Archive] - Page 18

Stuttgart88

10/07/2014, 11:22 AM

Yep, I agree to an extent but I don't think withdrawals of the likes of Reid, Dunne, Clark and some others are anything but genuine. I think the MON era might be different to the Trap era where a combination of bad attitude, bad communication policy and bad man management led to withdrawals. I think there is a core of enthusiastic and committed players. Some, like Stokes, don't convince me but then again, it's a clean slate and I suspect his injury was genuine in May.

The Wilson family wedding was a bit cr@p, as was Walters' holiday in Dubai, but then again they all came back for the US trip and there was no great value in them being there for the whole 4 games. I'll give the players and MON the benefit of the doubt here. I don't see Keane, whatever about MON, tolerating slackers, though I'd be inclined to guess Cobh nut job will be in the set up soon.

Fixer82

10/07/2014, 11:32 AM

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/roy-keane-my-role-as-a-tv-pundit-was-a-conflict-of-interest-30409770.html

paul_oshea

10/07/2014, 11:44 AM

I hope you're wrong about the commitment. That would be the worst indictment of all.

We'll see about the quality. I'm not as downbeat as you are on that front but goals are a worry. I'd like to think we can at least go toe to toe with Scotland and Poland.

We can go toe to toe, but in Strachan i think they have a far better manager. He is very articulate and seems very good at motivating and organising players to the best of their ability and the team as a whole. He is the only one who really caught my attention during the world cup, and his analysis and thought process was far better than O'Neills.

ArdeeBhoy

10/07/2014, 9:44 PM

TheOneWhoKnocks

11/07/2014, 2:30 AM

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/world-cup/us-world-cup-heroes-to-face-irish-30423366.html

Ireland to play U.S.A. in friendly this November.

geysir

11/07/2014, 9:41 AM

One step at a time. It is a BIG target to qualify. We can worry about doing well against the big teams afterwards.
Once upon a time it was a big target, now it's just a target which has been made a lot easier, it would be a big failure to miss this target.
Under this criteria we would have even qualified with Stan for Euro 2008, 7 qual groups, top 3 go through. Think about that one before claiming this to be a BIG target. :)

ArdeeBhoy

11/07/2014, 10:03 AM

Only the best 3rd place team...play-offs for us at best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2016

Stuttgart88

11/07/2014, 10:48 AM

There's that and the fact Scotland/Alba are playing like a team. Was very impressed with their approach to the game I went to. Not the greatest players, but looked very cohesive and generally acquitted themselves well within their (& WGS's) 'system'.

Regardless of what we think and our fanciful selections, do MO'N/RMK even know their strongest team? Not entirely their fault, but I doubt it. And even more so, unlikely this 'ideal' team have even ever played together...
Were you impressed by the Irish performance at the same venue a few days later? Probably the most like for like?

In hindsight though, I'd almost have preferred if Monkeano had used a smaller group of players in early summer and used the 3 weeks to get ideas across. Although the tour probably ruled several players out of serious contention, a bit of foresight and conviction might have done this anyway.

Still, Oman, Georgia (not a gimme, I accept) and Gibraltar are still to be played before the first crunch games. By then we should be much further down the road.

geysir

11/07/2014, 11:35 AM

Only the best 3rd place team...play-offs for us at best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2016
Maybe I have to spell it out more clearly :)
In 2008 Euro qualifiers there were 7 groups, we finished a clear 3rd. That makes 21 teams, 2 hosts, and there would have been one play off (as there was in 1996) to find the last team. In a 24 team Euros in 2008, we would have qualified with Stan at the helm.
Nowadays, what Stan dismally managed to achieve has become a difficult big target.

My point is simple, qualification is just a target, not a big target not the be all and end all, but missing the target would be a big failure. Nevertheless, we could conceivably qualify for Euro 2016 and still retain most aspects of our current dysfunctions.

jbyrne

11/07/2014, 11:36 AM

Once upon a time it was a big target, now it's just a target which has been made a lot easier, it would be a big failure to miss this target.
Under this criteria we would have even qualified with Stan for Euro 2008, 7 qual groups, top 3 go through. Think about that one before claiming this to be a BIG target. :)

disaster as stans only campaign was we still managed 8 points at home against czech rep, germany, slovakia and wales. would very gladly take a similar return from our home matches against germany, poland, scotland and georgia this time.

Fixer82

11/07/2014, 12:12 PM

WC02: two decent (although the German appraisal has become a bit revisionist - Germany wasted a hatful of chances), one good and one really ballsy performance (Spain). We actually scored a few goals for a change.

Come on now, we had a few chances ourselves. Kahn was on fire that day.
I remember Kinsella having a great game that day

ArdeeBhoy

11/07/2014, 12:14 PM

Agreed jb!!

Were you impressed by the Irish performance at the same venue a few days later? Probably the most like for like?

In hindsight though, I'd almost have preferred if Monkeano had used a smaller group of players in early summer and used the 3 weeks to get ideas across. Although the tour probably ruled several players out of serious contention, a bit of foresight and conviction might have done this anyway.

Still, Oman, Georgia (not a gimme, I accept) and Gibraltar are still to be played before the first crunch games. By then we should be much further down the road.

We played quite well, but look at that Italian score in the context of the WC, ultimately they were v.underwhelming and my Italian pal will talk for hours about how much he despised Prandelli...
Scotland are no world-beaters for sure but their team has momentum and they are getting results. In general we aren't.

ArdeeBhoy

11/07/2014, 12:16 PM

Maybe I have to spell it out more clearly :)
In 2008 Euro qualifiers there were 7 groups, we finished a clear 3rd. That makes 21 teams, 2 hosts, and there would have been one play off (as there was in 1996) to find the last team. In a 24 team Euros in 2008, we would have qualified with Stan at the helm.
Nowadays, what Stan dismally managed to achieve has become a difficult big target.

One slight problem;there weren't 24 qualifiers in Euro'08...

Stuttgart88

11/07/2014, 2:02 PM

Agreed jb!!

We played quite well, but look at that Italian score in the context of the WC, ultimately they were v.underwhelming and my Italian pal will talk for hours about how much he despised Prandelli...
Scotland are no world-beaters for sure but their team has momentum and they are getting results. In general we aren't.
Scotland drew 2-2 with a Nigeria team that were being paid to lose:)

back of the net

11/07/2014, 2:40 PM

Looks like USA are coming to Lansdowne road on November 18th

Stuttgart88

11/07/2014, 3:05 PM

Come on now, we had a few chances ourselves. Kahn was on fire that day.
I remember Kinsella having a great game that day
I thought we were good in the first half especially after they scored.

When we played Germany at home under Trap I was in Slattery's early and they were showing the Ibaraki game in full. The second half was peppered with incidents of Germany ballsing up presentable chances. One in particular where a Shay and Breen hesitated between them to allow Jacker a great chance which he fluffed. Another ( or was it the same chance?) was when Jacker had a simple chance to lob Shay who was in no man's land but fluffed it. Germany could have won that game 3-0 even though we played well for long periods, especially in immediate response to Klose's goal.

It wasn't how I remembered the game but seeing it again on telly without the emotion and tension changed my view of it. Our first chance in the second half was about two minutes before we scored, Kahn making a good block from Keane, at close range.

jbyrne

11/07/2014, 3:13 PM

we well well deserved that draw against germany in 02. i turned to the person beside me in the stand 2 mins before we scored and we both agreed if there was any justice we would get the equaliser.

here are the basic stats for what its worth:

Corners (1st half)
G 0
I 1
Corners (2nd half)
G 2
I 1
Fouls committed
G 18
I 21
Shots on target
G 6
I 5
Shots Off Target
G 7
I 6
Caught Offside
G 5
I 4

Fixer82

11/07/2014, 3:29 PM

The second half was peppered with incidents of Germany ballsing up presentable chances. One in particular where a Shay and Breen hesitated between them to allow Jacker a great chance which he fluffed. Another ( or was it the same chance?) was when Jacker had a simple chance to lob Shay who was in no man's land but fluffed it.

I think it was the same chance. Jancker was useless in that tournament.

i remember Matt Holland almost scoring a carbon copy of his Cameroon goal in the first half

Stuttgart88

11/07/2014, 4:10 PM

Jb, if there was a stat for near calamitous defensive ****-ups too, we'd have probably out scored Germany by at least one, maybe two!

I'm just saying that on at least one occasion (fixer, wasn't there one where they messed up a simple three on two?) they could have put the game to bed despite how well we responded to their goal. Goals change games as we all know. Had David Silva taken a routine chance against Holland there'd have been no 5-1 thrashing. Similarly, had England been fairly awarded a stonewall penalty when Moran fouled Waddle in Cagliari our WC90 adventure would have been over before it started.

I'm only trying to make the point that at times we have stunk the place out just as much, if not more, than we have actually done anything of note at finals, even though on balance we have done quite well at tournaments. I think across all four games our WC02 performance was the best of our three WCs, including the game in Ibaraki.

Why do I want to make that point? Because there are some here going way OTT about how bad we were in Euro 2012 - or more importantly, what it means - and how we'd do in another finals if we got there. I think it's unrealistic to expect a small country like us to ever do well unless we also get a sizeable rub of the green on top of playing well. Even without playing well, rub of the green can go a long way as it did in 1990.

None of this is to say that we should just hope for the best. Without proper structures in place in all aspects of our game we are simply preparing to fail, as others have put it. At the very least we should be aiming to be competitive. Let the luck follow.

jbyrne

11/07/2014, 4:24 PM

I'm just saying that on at least one occasion (fixer, wasn't there one where they messed up a simple three on two?) they could have put the game to bed despite how well we responded to their goal. Goals change games as we all know. Had David Silva taken a routine chance against Holland there'd have been no 5-1 thrashing. Similarly, had England been fairly awarded a stonewall penalty when Moran fouled Waddle in Cagliari our WC90 adventure would have been over before it started.

of course. and if the ref had given us the stone wall aldridge (and/or galvin?) pen v USSR in euro 88 we may have gone to the semis. but i agree with your point

I'm only trying to make the point that at times we have stunk the place out just as much, if not more, than we have actually done anything of note at finals, even though on balance we have done quite well at tournaments. I think across all four games our WC02 performance was the best of our three WCs, including the game in Ibaraki.

agree 2002 was our best wc performance

Why do I want to make that point? Because there are some here going way OTT about how bad we were in Euro 2012 - or more importantly, what it means - and how we'd do in another finals if we got there. I think it's unrealistic to expect a small country like us to ever do well unless we also get a sizeable rub of the green on top of playing well. Even without playing well, rub of the green can go a long way as it did in 1990.

have always taken this line and got savage abuse for it at times!

bennocelt

11/07/2014, 4:49 PM

As I am too lazy to look it up but in 1994 we played a truly dire game against Norway, with a predictable 0-0 result. It was shocking stuff. If we had went for the win would we have avoided Holland?

mark12345

11/07/2014, 8:35 PM

I agree. Qualification is the big target. Then we reboot and focus on the tournament proper.

I think some historic perspective is needed. I think we have deluded ourselves in some respects given how we had a good record getting out of groups.

Euro 88: some great performances but still "only" 4 points. 3rd in group.
WC90: two ok performances, one awful performance, two resolute / competitive performances. Nothing on a par with Hannover though. Two goals scored, both from opposition mistakes. No games won after 90 or 120 minutes.
WC94: one great performance, one ok and two muck. Two goals scored, one game in four won.
WC02: two decent (although the German appraisal has become a bit revisionist - Germany wasted a hatful of chances), one good and one really ballsy performance (Spain). We actually scored a few goals for a change.
Eur12: 3 defeats. One for, lots against. Caveat being it was a very hard group.

I'm not trying to revise downwards the appreciation of what went before, just trying to show that even in our heyday we found it hard to impress on the big stage. It's hard and this World Cup showed how the second-placed European teams struggled. Only France did well and they're not your typical European second seed.

Qualify, hope for a good draw, play well, get some luck and only then is progress beyond group stage feasible I reckon.

One common denominator in all of the above - we are a very attack minded team and have absolutely no problem scoring goals.

ArdeeBhoy

11/07/2014, 10:53 PM

Scotland drew 2-2 with a Nigeria team that were being paid to lose:)

Even if that were true, how do you explain all their other results? WGS bribed the oppo' or went for the 'ginger sympathy' card...
:rolleyes:

BonnieShels

11/07/2014, 11:25 PM

As I am too lazy to look it up but in 1994 we played a truly dire game against Norway, with a predictable 0-0 result. It was shocking stuff. If we had went for the win would we have avoided Holland?

We would have finished top by two points and then played Bulgaria in the next round.

Incidentally Italy who finished third played Nigeria in the second round.

Crosby87

11/07/2014, 11:39 PM

Lebron James to played in Cleveland again.

bennocelt

12/07/2014, 6:50 AM

We would have finished top by two points and then played Bulgaria in the next round.

Incidentally Italy who finished third played Nigeria in the second round.

Yeah looked it up, tbh I dont think we wud have beaten those two, Bulgaria were great in that world cup, and Nigeria were very close to knocking out Italy

ArdeeBhoy

12/07/2014, 8:38 AM

Aye, four years earlier maybe...the travelling and heat did for the Irish in USA'94 iirc.

paul_oshea

12/07/2014, 10:26 AM

I thought we were good in the first half especially after they scored.

When we played Germany at home under Trap I was in Slattery's early and they were showing the Ibaraki game in full. The second half was peppered with incidents of Germany ballsing up presentable chances. One in particular where a Shay and Breen hesitated between them to allow Jacker a great chance which he fluffed. Another ( or was it the same chance?) was when Jacker had a simple chance to lob Shay who was in no man's land but fluffed it. Germany could have won that game 3-0 even though we played well for long periods, especially in immediate response to Klose's goal.

It wasn't how I remembered the game but seeing it again on telly without the emotion and tension changed my view of it. Our first chance in the second half was about two minutes before we scored, Kahn making a good block from Keane, at close range.

stutts I can't recall individuals at this stage but we could definitely have been down 3 0 in that game and lost by the same scoreline.we played well in parts without creating anything.I always felt germany thought they could just do enough to win and were happy to sit back on the lead but we got them on a sucker punch.

I also thought against Spain we could have been 2 or 3 down in the first 20+ mins but once they scored they sat back and we started to dominate.good teams back then seemed a lot happier to do that I don't think they would do it now.

against cameroon we didn't do an awful lot either

I actually think that all the luck Mccarthy didn't get in all those playoffs and last minute goals and shock results all came together in the world cup and got us vital goals at vital times...not just luck but ye know what I mean.

paul_oshea

12/07/2014, 10:59 AM

Lebron James to played in Cleveland again.

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/07/11/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers

DannyInvincible

12/07/2014, 1:47 PM

I actually think that all the luck Mccarthy didn't get in all those playoffs and last minute goals and shock results all came together in the world cup and got us vital goals at vital times...not just luck but ye know what I mean.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean? :p

Stuttgart88

12/07/2014, 2:10 PM

the travelling and heat did for the Irish in USA'94 iirc.I agree. I was exhausted.

BonnieShels

12/07/2014, 8:05 PM

Yeah looked it up, tbh I dont think we wud have beaten those two, Bulgaria were great in that world cup, and Nigeria were very close to knocking out Italy

We would have played Nigeria in Boston or Bulgaria in NJ.

Charlie Darwin

12/07/2014, 8:08 PM

I remember the weather being stifling in that Bulgaria match too.

BonnieShels

12/07/2014, 8:13 PM

Most probably. Weather in this part of the world in June/July is insane.

paul_oshea

12/07/2014, 9:48 PM

It's not.its insane for a few days followed by heavy thunder showers but it's only ever really bad a few days each month. The rest it's usually just very warm but not the high humidity which is what the Irish players couldn't handle.

Stuttgart88

12/07/2014, 10:26 PM

I think Charlie was talking about Tallaght :)

Bonnie is talking about Ottawa.

We played in NJ and Orlando.

You can't generalise. Orlando is completely different to, say, Tampa which is only a drive away.

Fwiw, I nearly melted in Orlando at the Mexico game. I drank 3 litres of water watching the game, though i was there an hour early. Yeah, it was humid but it was insanely hot. There was no escaping the heat, no shade anywhere. It was all down to the heat, and the fact that Mexico were probably a bit better anyway.

I think it might have been different during the Dutch game but I had gone home by then. On TV it looked less sunny.

BonnieShels

13/07/2014, 6:26 PM

Bonnie was talking about the whole Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Boston-New York-Philly area.

I mean Paul, what would I know, I only live here. The weather I've experienced on Ottawa has been insane. And to be honest almost exactly the same as the weather I've experienced in NY, Montreal and TO.

Not the high humidity? You have got to be kidding?

The humidity here is so bad that you have to shower again after getting out of a cold shower. You spend your life running from AC to AC.

And we had tornado warmings last week. So... Insane.

paul_oshea

13/07/2014, 6:52 PM

I was talking about the East coast.and I also spent a while thete and returned on holiday nearly every year for 6 years.

yer not there a wet week and talking like ye've experienced all the weather :P you just wait son!!you just wait.

I used to shower 3 times a day in that humidity.

TheOneWhoKnocks

13/07/2014, 8:02 PM

Who has more illegal residents, Mexico or Ireland?

paul_oshea

13/07/2014, 10:03 PM

football and politics don't mix you all say.

I see Angela Merkel on the podium there.

gastric

14/07/2014, 7:28 AM

Good to see the FAI have confidence in us beating Germany! Don't think MONROY would be too happy. COYBIG.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/world-cup/fai-forced-to-delete-selfdepreciating-message-to-world-cup-winners-germany-30428983.html

OwlsFan

14/07/2014, 7:35 AM

Fwiw, I nearly melted in Orlando at the Mexico game. I drank 3 litres of water watching the game, though i was there an hour early. Yeah, it was humid but it was insanely hot. There was no escaping the heat, no shade anywhere. It was all down to the heat, and the fact that Mexico were probably a bit better anyway.

I think it might have been different during the Dutch game but I had gone home by then. On TV it looked less sunny.

The heat at that Mexican game was something else. I remember many of the Irish fans sheltering under a bridge to keep put of it rather than going in to the stadium. Qatar will be something similar were we to make it. Still we probably scored the best worked goal under Jack's reign at that game by a fired up John Aldridge which helped us get through to the last 16 (again).

jbyrne

14/07/2014, 7:48 AM

against cameroon we didn't do an awful lot either

except dominating the 2nd half while playing some very effective football at times. robbie (post) and reid (super free kick) were among some of the great chances we created. should have won 2-1

gastric

14/07/2014, 8:38 AM

The heat at that Mexican game was something else. I remember many of the Irish fans sheltering under a bridge to keep put of it rather than going in to the stadium. Qatar will be something similar were we to make it. Still we probably scored the best worked goal under Jack's reign at that game by a fired up John Aldridge which helped us get through to the last 16 (again).

Jaysus, you blokes don't know what heat is! It gets to 45c over here regularly in the summer now, global warming is a reality. :D

ArdeeBhoy

14/07/2014, 9:12 AM

Who has more illegal residents, Mexico or Ireland?
What are you on about?

football and politics don't mix you all say.

I see Angela Merkel on the podium there.

Except it always has and always will. Found Bl****r's presence a lot more objectionable...

back of the net

14/07/2014, 12:40 PM

DannyInvincible

14/07/2014, 8:39 PM

What are you on about?

Think he's referring to illegal Irish and Mexicans in the US. Pretty sure there'd be a greater number of illegal aliens of Mexican origin and by a very significant figure.

Except it always has and always will. Found Bl****r's presence a lot more objectionable...

I saw him cosying up to Putin before the game. The resounding and unmistakable chorus of boos that greeted Blatter's every appearance on the big screen was a joy to behold.