Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[DannyInvincible]

The ego thing and how he regarded Ireland whilst a player under Fergie. Though like I said, it wasn't just him who behaved like this, according to the source who may have embellished this theory.

Ryan Giggs too rarely featured for Wales in friendly games under Fergie. What were the records of other United players at the time like in terms of friendly international appearances?

[tricky_colour]

So Villa might win, or Burnley might win, or it could be a draw

Could be match abandoned.

Anyhow we shall see in a few hours.

[DannyInvincible]

O'Neill on Keane's departure from Villa:


http://vimeo.com/113104270

According to O'Neill, Keane never had a summer holiday due to his commitment. O'Neill suggests the inevitable limit placed upon family time by pursuing two roles may have influenced his decision to give one up.

[tricky_colour]

Villa winning, pretty much as I predicted :friendly_wink:

[tricky_colour]

1-1 I believe I predicted that too. :friendly_wink:

[tricky_colour]

Still 3 mins to go so I am on for a treble.

[BonnieShels]

Ings just hit the post. So close Tricky.

[SwanVsDalton]

Juck...Juci...Jukwic...your man who could play for us had a great chance to win it too.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The Polish fella from the South Coast? Grandparent eligibility?

[DannyInvincible]

'Roy Keane's shock Aston Villa exit sparked celebrations in the dressing room': http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/roy-keanes-shock-aston-villa-4719930


Roy Keane walked out on Aston Villa to the sound of cheering from Paul Lambert’s dressing-room, writes Neil Moxley in the Sunday People.

Villa’s players broke into applause when the Irishman’s exit was confirmed on Friday morning.

...

And although he walked and was not sacked by Villa boss Lambert, the club’s first-team squad were still happy to see the back of him.

Matters came to a head after Villa’s toothless defeat to QPR at Loftus Road last month. Manchester United legend Keane rounded on several Villa players, calling them out after a pitiful display during the loss.

...

Insiders have confirmed to Sunday People Sport that Keane suffered “a real head loss” following their no-show in west London.

Tets; it's kind of become taken-for-granted now, I know, but is there any way you can amend the ridiculous thread title to 'Martin O'Neill/Roy Keane' or something? It's almost like when someone's been referring to you by the wrong name for so long because you never bothered correcting them the first time, so it has stuck and eventually becomes too late to correct them. Or is it worth preserving as a sort of forum in-joke? :p

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

The Polish fella from the South Coast? Grandparent eligibility?

Some randomer who is completely ambivalent about playing Intl. football for Ireland, who said he would like to play for Poland if England didn't select him, who has been bang average at Championship level and continued that form into the Premier League; and yet some people would rather continue to hand out caps like confetti to people like him than reward lads like Alan Judge, Alan McCormack and Jonathan Douglas who have all been a credit to a promotion chasing Brentford team and would give their right arm to be selected for their country.

[tetsujin1979]

Some randomer who is completely ambivalent about playing Intl. football for Ireland, who said he would like to play for Poland if England didn't select him, who has been bang average at Championship level and continued that form into the Premier League; and yet some people would rather continue to hand out caps like confetti to people like him than reward lads like Alan Judge, Alan McCormack and Jonathan Douglas who have all been a credit to a promotion chasing Brentford team and would give their right arm to be selected for their country.
O'Neill and Keane have only handed out three new caps since taking over more than a year ago - Elliott (who was already involved in the squad), Christie and McGoldrick, hardly handed out like confetti
nobody is calling for Jutkiewicz to be called up, he's barely mentioned playing for the Republic, to be the best of my knowledge he's never been mentioned by management and we're all well aware of the alternatives


Tets; it's kind of become taken-for-granted now, I know, but is there any way you can amend the ridiculous thread title to 'Martin O'Neill/Roy Keane' or something? It's almost like when someone's been referring to you by the wrong name for so long because you never bothered correcting them the first time, so it has stuck and eventually becomes too late to correct them. Or is it worth preserving as a sort of forum in-joke? http://foot.ie/images/smilies/tongue.gif
Meant to do that for a while actually. The order bothered me more than anything else - Keane and O'Neill made it look like Keane was the manager, with O'Neill his assistant.

[DannyInvincible]

Some randomer who is completely ambivalent about playing Intl. football for Ireland, who said he would like to play for Poland if England didn't select him, who has been bang average at Championship level and continued that form into the Premier League; and yet some people would rather continue to hand out caps like confetti to people like him than reward lads like Alan Judge, Alan McCormack and Jonathan Douglas who have all been a credit to a promotion chasing Brentford team and would give their right arm to be selected for their country.

If a player is eligible, willing and deemed good enough, he'll be selected. It's not the same as throwing out confetti at random. Silly comparison. Fair play to them on chasing promotion, but the reason the Brentford lot you mention are not in our squads is because it is deemed that we have better options elsewhere.

Nobody has ever called for the inclusion of Jutkiewicz, or have they? I first came across his eligibility in one of the old Football Manager games and that's probably from where wider knowledge of his eligibility stems, as I don't think he's ever appealed for his own inclusion or even flirted with the notion of representing us.


O'Neill and Keane have only handed out three new caps since taking over more than a year ago - Elliott (who was already involved in the squad), Christie and McGoldrick, hardly handed out like confetti

Shane Duffy has been another recipient of Martin's infamous confetti.


Meant to do that for a while actually. The order bothered me more than anything else - Keane and O'Neill made it look like Keane was the manager, with O'Neill his assistant.

The least we can do is have the name of "O Neil" spelled correctly!

[SwanVsDalton]

Some randomer who is completely ambivalent about playing Intl. football for Ireland, who said he would like to play for Poland if England didn't select him, who has been bang average at Championship level and continued that form into the Premier League; and yet some people would rather continue to hand out caps like confetti to people like him than reward lads like Alan Judge, Alan McCormack and Jonathan Douglas who have all been a credit to a promotion chasing Brentford team and would give their right arm to be selected for their country.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3KtYwWsVKU4/maxresdefault.jpg

Who ya talking to?!

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

They have been pursuing eligible players though, largely without success - while ignoring half a dozen players who are interested and wouldn't require paperwork. All they seem to do is wax hypothetical about players who may or may not want to play for us while talking about how crap our talent pool is.

And I never said MON is handing out caps like confetti. I said some people would like to hand out caps like confetti to eligible players.

[DannyInvincible]

They have been pursuing eligible players though, largely without success - while ignoring half a dozen players who are interested and wouldn't require paperwork. All they seem to do is wax hypothetical about players who may or may not want to play for us while talking about how crap our talent pool is.

You're exaggerating wildly. Queries have been made with certain players and I think Martin made a comment or two about our level/general ability and possible lack of depth at the outset, but it's not all he does. I'd doubt making queries with potential eligible players even consumes anywhere close to majority of his time.

Name the half dozen or so players who've been ignored but you think should be in our squads. Simply being interested and eligible doesn't cut it; you have to also be good enough.


And I never said MON is handing out caps like confetti. I said some people would like to hand out caps like confetti to eligible players.

Who are these people? Where are they?

[Stuttgart88]

If it wasn't for the degree to which TOWK exaggerates and engages in sophistry I'd have some sympathy with his argument. I personally think O'Neill has been too critical of his talent pool, too vocal of the need to recruit via the granny rule and too vocal about how he is pursuing it. I think the latter places in the enlarged squads lack imagination.

But when it comes to the final squads I think he has got it pretty much right.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I personally think O'Neill has been too critical of his talent pool, too vocal of the need to recruit via the granny rule and too vocal about how he is pursuing it.

If anything, it's not vocal, or vigorous, enough...

[BonnieShels]

Well Lukas has a thread here therefore we can assume like Paddy Bamford there is widesprwad clamour for their inclusion. That's what I infer from a player with a thread.

[tetsujin1979]

They have been pursuing eligible players though, largely without success - while ignoring half a dozen players who are interested and wouldn't require paperwork. All they seem to do is wax hypothetical about players who may or may not want to play for us while talking about how crap our talent pool is.Really? Apart from Grealish, who they only mention when asked, I don't recall them mentioning any other players.


And I never said MON is handing out caps like confetti. I said some people would like to hand out caps like confetti to eligible players.
I think you need to realise the difference between a discussion on an eligible player and calls for him to be capped

[Charlie Darwin]

Well Lukas has a thread here therefore we can assume like Paddy Bamford there is widesprwad clamour for their inclusion. That's what I infer from a player with a thread.
Unless it has 100 pages and numerous conspiracy theories it doesn't count as a clamour for me.

[BonnieShels]

You were always a stickler. I like to jump the gun and live on the edge.

[gastric]

Some randomer who is completely ambivalent about playing Intl. football for Ireland, who said he would like to play for Poland if England didn't select him, who has been bang average at Championship level and continued that form into the Premier League; and yet some people would rather continue to hand out caps like confetti to people like him than reward lads like Alan Judge, Alan McCormack and Jonathan Douglas who have all been a credit to a promotion chasing Brentford team and would give their right arm to be selected for their country.

The Pole's a forward, the Brentford boys are defenders and midfielders. Why make such silly comparisons?

[DannyInvincible]

Well Lukas has a thread here therefore we can assume like Paddy Bamford there is widesprwad clamour for their inclusion. That's what I infer from a player with a thread.

I had a read through the thread here: http://foot.ie/threads/143742-Lukas-Jutkiewicz

It's very brief with not a solitary call for his inclusion (bar SkStu's obviously-ironic post that seemed to confuse worm). Most agree he's not good enough and acknowledge we're probably only his third choice anyway. Where have you heard or seen people call for his inclusion and the inclusion of players like him, TOWK?

[GypsyBlackCat]

Some randomer who is completely ambivalent about playing Intl. football for Ireland, who said he would like to play for Poland if England didn't select him, who has been bang average at Championship level and continued that form into the Premier League; and yet some people would rather continue to hand out caps like confetti to people like him than reward lads like Alan Judge, Alan McCormack and Jonathan Douglas who have all been a credit to a promotion chasing Brentford team and would give their right arm to be selected for their country.

Player looking to boost his career by looking to play international football SHOCKER!!!!

Let's be honest, most English born player dream of playing for England. That's only natural. But if we are a plan B then so be it. I don't mind once they give their best and are 100% committed. Just because someone mention a player with Irish links on here doesn't mean we are all asking the powers that be to pick him!

[Mr A]

I'd say JD promised him a pay rise if he could distract from his own media attention for a few days.

Funny the first thing I thought when I heard Keane resigned from Villa was that he felt it was wrong that Delaney was generating more headlines than him and needed to focus on Ireland to rectify this.

[geysir]

Of course it is believable that Delaney has such prescient powers of manipulation over one of his most stubborn adversaries :) but not even Delaney could persuade the FAI to top up Keane's reputed Eur 700k salary as assistant to O'Neill.

Roy's simple choice could have been, Eur500k for a full time job or Eur700k for a job where an occasional appearance is required.

(Salary figures are courtesy of that oracle, The Irish Daily Star)

[DannyInvincible]

Tony Cascarino hasn't much time for Roy: http://balls.ie/football/tony-cascarinos-verdict-roy-keanes-villa-exit-still-harshest-yet/


Tony Cascarino acknowledged that from what he had heard, Roy Keane was a good coach at Villa. He even reported that the players liked him and his training sessions. There the praise ends.

In his London Times article at the weekend (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/football/article4281812.ece), he said that Keane receives special treatment – that his flounces and loss of temper would see him castigated if he wasn’t Roy Keane, but instead it’s a ‘pat on the back and thanks for your trouble.’

He accused Keane of abandoning Villa at a time when they most need him – pointing out that Ireland don’t have a game until March.


"If his decision is to be taken at face value — that he felt he could not commit fully to his roles at Villa Park, with the Ireland team, and at ITV — then he has walked out on his club when they need him most, at a time when his country hardly need him at all. Ireland do not play again until March."

He lamented that Keane keeps having opportunities falling into his lap when there are ‘hundreds of coaches toiling away at all levels of game who would be desperate for the opportunities he has had… Doors that remain closed to the vast majority of people seem to open, as if by magic, for Keane, despite what is at best a mixed record as a manager.’

He delivers possibly his toughest line in the penultimate paragraph. Association football is not usually a game that frets about it’s popularity or how it comes across to the world, but Cascarino says the fact that Keane keeps getting job offers is embarrassing.


"That he continues to be given chance after chance simply on the strength of his name eventually becomes embarrassing for the sport, as though it is completely in thrall to his reputation."

Is he bitter with jealousy?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Doubtful. From what I know of Cas, he was never RMK's biggest fan...

[DeLorean]

The feelings are very much mutual. I remember Keane saying in an interview that "you can't believe a word that man says".

[Stuttgart88]

Is it just me or is it a relief to see this thread having a proper title after all this time? I'm the kind of guy who needs pictures to be hanging straight and curtains fully drawn, so this type of thing matters to me.

[DeLorean]

Why would anybody hang a picture crooked... my skin just crawled at the thought. In fairness though, it had more character the other way. A Tricky Masterclass.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't care about the title, it's whether these two have any meaningful impact...
Guess we'll find out in late March.

I won't hold my breath, but wish them well.

[DeLorean]

Crazy talk AB, I'd much prefer to have the thread title correct than qualify for the Euros.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well, both seem unlikely...

[tetsujin1979]

Why would anybody hang a picture crooked... my skin just crawled at the thought. In fairness though, it had more character the other way. A Tricky Masterclass.


Is it just me or is it a relief to see this thread having a proper title after all this time? I'm the kind of guy who needs pictures to be hanging straight and curtains fully drawn, so this type of thing matters to me.

http://i.imgur.com/sUZ4JXb.jpg
mu-hu-wa-ha-haaa!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Lolz.

[Mr A]

Cascarino makes fair enough points there I think. Surprised Keane hasn't retaliated yet, but maybe there hasn't been a chance to date.

[DeLorean]

What chances does Keane keep 'undeservedly' getting though? It could definitely be argued that he'd done nothing to deserve the Sunderland job, but that worked out very well for them and he certainly did enough to warrant another job, at what was a lower level. Things didn't go too well at Ipswich so he's basically been demoted (or has demoted himself) to assistant manager roles instead of the main man, seems reasonable enough. This is the second job (amongst other things) that he's walked out on though so obviously that should, and probably will, count against him in the future.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The ego, the ego, the ego.

[DeLorean]

I'm not sure what you're saying though? If this was a decision based on his ego, wouldn't he have stayed on and wanted to prove he could combine both roles effectively? Quitting was an admission that he called it wrong and wasn't capable of doing both roles the way he thought he would.

[GypsyBlackCat]

What chances does Keane keep 'undeservedly' getting though? It could definitely be argued that he'd done nothing to deserve the Sunderland job, but that worked out very well for them and he certainly did enough to warrant another job, at what was a lower level. Things didn't go too well at Ipswich so he's basically been demoted (or has demoted himself) to assistant manager roles instead of the main man, seems reasonable enough. This is the second job (amongst other things) that he's walked out on though so obviously that should, and probably will, count against him in the future.

In fairness, people seem to think Keane walks on water and can do no wrong. He did ok at Sunderland but it ended badly. For the money he spent and the players he got in didn't match up. As one local writer put it 'He paid Champions League money for Championship players.' After spending the best part of £100m you don't expect to be sitting second bottom of the PL. Plus he couldn't handle the egos and his coaching left a lot to be desired. Also his attitude. Ellis Short had every right to question Keane's performance as manager and he walked out. That should raise the question if he can handle the pressure. I can't imagine Ellis Short or Marcus Evans giving Keane a glown CV.

[DeLorean]

I certainly don't think he walks on water but I do think he did well at Sunderland. In fact, I think one would have to be pretty anti-Keane not to appreciate that. He spent the money he was given to spend, got promoted to the PL and kept them there. Any promoted club would take survival the following season and I think they finished 13th, albeit the margins were tight. It ended badly for sure but I'm simply talking about the job he did while he was there. I could definitely see why another Championship club would want him so I don't think that appointment was undeserved.

[GypsyBlackCat]

I certainly don't think he walks on water but I do think he did well at Sunderland. In fact, I think one would have to be pretty anti-Keane not to appreciate that. He spent the money he was given to spend, got promoted to the PL and kept them there. Any promoted club would take survival the following season and I think they finished 13th, albeit the margins were tight. It ended badly for sure but I'm simply talking about the job he did while he was there. I could definitely see why another Championship club would want him so I don't think that appointment was undeserved.

He took over a good squad of Champioship players and was able to spend good money to add to it. He did a good job to get SAFC promoted but that was about all. The thing that sticks in claw is the way he walked out. He spend big bucks on Ferdinand, McCartney, Cisse, Diouf, Tanio, Chimbonda, Healy and Malbranque during the summer but wanted more in January because they weren't good enough. When Short said no he had to sell to buy Keane got in a huff. That's the problem.

Ipswich took a chance and he failed despite spending good money on players like Leadbitter, Edwards and Martin to add to a solid Championship side. Not to many teams wanted him and it took him two years to get a job.

[DeLorean]

So he took over a good squad of Championship players, added to it, got them promoted and secured a decent Premier League finish. Managers are judged on their results and he got the results. Sunderland were a mess on the field when he took over so saying they had a good squad is one thing, but they weren't performing like they had a good squad. He bought some duds, no doubt. Sunderland haven't exactly kicked on since his departure and, who knows, maybe they'd still be struggling in the Championship had it not been for aul Keano.

Your last sentence I agree with, and that was basically what I was getting at when talking about Cascarino's comments.

[DannyInvincible]

What chances does Keane keep 'undeservedly' getting though?

Who's Cascarino to decide whether or not Keane is deserving of a particular role anyway? If the chairman of a football club or the board of an association feel he's fit for a particular role for whatever reason, be that purely because of his personality rather than due to any previous managerial record, than that's what matters. It's they who decide whether he's deserving of the role they're offering or not. The abilities and attributes Cascarino values are obviously different to those valued by people who keep giving Keane jobs.

[KK77]

He took over a good squad of Champioship players and was able to spend good money to add to it. He did a good job to get SAFC promoted but that was about all. The thing that sticks in claw is the way he walked out. He spend big bucks on Ferdinand, McCartney, Cisse, Diouf, Tanio, Chimbonda, Healy and Malbranque during the summer but wanted more in January because they weren't good enough. When Short said no he had to sell to buy Keane got in a huff. That's the problem.

Ipswich took a chance and he failed despite spending good money on players like Leadbitter, Edwards and Martin to add to a solid Championship side. Not to many teams wanted him and it took him two years to get a job.

I think John Giles called it right when he said Keane as a manager was a fairly poor judge of a player.

[GypsyBlackCat]

Who's Cascarino to decide whether or not Keane is deserving of a particular role anyway? If the chairman of a football club or the board of an association feel he's fit for a particular role for whatever reason, be that purely because of his personality rather than due to any previous managerial record, than that's what matters. It's they who decide whether he's deserving of the role they're offering or not. The abilities and attributes Cascarino values are obviously different to those valued by people who keep giving Keane jobs.

Cascarino is wrong that he keeps getting jobs. He was sacked by Ipswich in Jan 2011 and didn't get a job offer until November last year. But I think Cascarino has a point that Keane mightn't have what it takes to be a coach. It seems that a lot of chairmen didn't fancy giving Keane a job after Ipswich.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think John Giles called it right when he said Keane as a manager was a fairly poor judge of a player.
John would know, to be fair.

[DeLorean]

I think John Giles called it right when he said Keane as a manager was a fairly poor judge of a player.

I'd be surprised if Giles could name three Roy Keane signings. That's not to say he's wrong.


Cascarino is wrong that he keeps getting jobs. He was sacked by Ipswich in Jan 2011 and didn't get a job offer until November last year. But I think Cascarino has a point that Keane mightn't have what it takes to be a coach. It seems that a lot of chairmen didn't fancy giving Keane a job after Ipswich.

We don't really know for sure what Keane has or hasn't been offered post-Ipswich, I think he said in the book that he turned down a couple, possibly from abroad. Just because he didn't accept a managerial position until November 2013 doesn't mean he wasn't offered something, or at least approached. He probably needed a time out after Ipswich anyway. I can see where Cascarino is coming from, that Keane can mess up and still land on his feet, but I agree with Danny that it's not for Cascarino to say, just comes across like jealousy to me. I mean, for Keane to be offered a contract by the FAI, after all that went before, was pretty astounding. Villa and Celtic are two massive clubs to have offered positions as well, given his relative lack of success in management, and goes to show that a big personality/reputation can take you a long way.