Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[culloty82]

Ross County and Inverness would be less controversial Scottish examples, as Cove and Kelty are both widely regarded as new Gretnas, who would collapse whenever the owner pulls the plug, likewise Hoffenheim and RB Leipzig are both deeply unpopular in Germany for being bankrolled by billionaires. Eibar and Villarreal are excellent examples of small-town clubs who climbed a pyramid in a sustainable manner, as indeed are Italy's Sassuolo.

[EalingGreen]

There is another indirect advantage to a pyramid which i think is pertinent to the LOI. That is, whenever a club gets into financial difficulties, something hardly unkown in the LOI, there is enormous pressure on the FAI to keep them going since there are no obvious alternatives ready to step up in their place.

And if the club should go bust, there is similar pressure to parachute back in whatever replacement club emerges from the remains. Whereas if you had a proper pyramid to supply a replacement, ok the replacement might not be of a similar status, but this should prove a disincentive to owners to bugger about with their finances in the first place.

While dodgy owners of a "phoenix club" might think twice if thy had to start again at a lower level and work their way up.

A good example from the IL is Bangor (founded 1918):
"Bangor enjoyed the most successful period in its history during the 1990s when the club qualified for Europe for the first time in its history after finishing second in the Irish League. This success was followed by winning the Irish Cup in 1993 after two replays against bitter rivals, Ards. Paul Byrne, who scored the winning goal with the last kick of the game, moved on to Celtic.

In October 2007, the club announced that a deal had been struck with property developers to sell land at the rear of the ground and use this to clear all debts. On 13 May 2008, it was announced that Bangor had secured a place in the new 12-team IFA Premiership for the 2008/09, season despite only having finished third in the IFA Intermediate League First Division in 2007/08.

Unfortunately, their stay in the Premiership only lasted a season as midway through the campaign the Club decided not to re-apply for the Domestic Licence that was required to compete at this level. On 1 February 2009, the club announced that it would not be renewing its domestic licence for 2009–10 and would therefore resign from the IFA Premiership at the end of the season due to financial reasons and low attendances at matches."

The point being that with a pyramid, there was at least somewhere for them to go to maintain football in the town.

Meanwhile, they look finally to have got their act together in the 3rd tier, and are redeveloping their ground, as they aim to get back into the Premiership again:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/northern-ireland/bangor-ground-development-is-next-step-in-clubs-top-flight-bid-3262754

[legendz]

Whereas if you had a proper pyramid to supply a replacement,...
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That's an argument for the third tier as well. Cobh Ramblers had a few years in the A Championship. An LoI club might have to step down. One would hope that a third tier over 5 years or so would have 2 or 3 clubs qualifying for a First Division licence.

[EalingGreen]

That's an argument for the third tier as well. Cobh Ramblers had a few years in the A Championship. An LoI club might have to step down. One would hope that a third tier over 5 years or so would have 2 or 3 clubs qualifying for a First Division licence.
Agree, but you cannot stop there - you need an Intermediate grade beneath the 3 Senior Divisions, and a further Junior structure beneath that, to keep the higher clubs "honest", via Promotion & Relegation etc, as well as providing an incentive to the lower clubs.

[Martinho II]

That's an argument for the third tier as well. Cobh Ramblers had a few years in the A Championship. An LoI club might have to step down. One would hope that a third tier over 5 years or so would have 2 or 3 clubs qualifying for a First Division licence.

Werent Galway Utd in the A Championship during the 5 yr spell away from LOI?

[GUFCghost]

Werent Galway Utd in the A Championship during the 5 yr spell away from LOI?

Nope! During United's absence Salthill & Mervue were the only show in town. I recall United briefly fielding an underage squad that seriously flopped. Salthill briefly rebranded as SD Galway in an attempt to win former United fans, that also failed miserably.

My father, from rural Galway, worked in Mervue at the time. He recalls a friend telling him he should obviously start supporting Mervue now. He told him he'd rather watch his local junior club in the third tier of the Galway district league, his friend was quite bemused at that statement but I think it speaks to why clubs like Kerry FC have a chance.

I lost interest in the LOI and football in general during that whole ****show. I only came back to it during covid. I suppose it would have been avoided if Mervue & Salthill were relegated like they should have been, but a lot of people in Galway are still skeptical of a pyramid for this very reason. For them, Galway United is essentially the county board. I think there should be room for counties that want to all row in behind the one club and towns that want to go it alone.

[legendz]

I think there should be room for counties that want to all row in behind the one club and towns that want to go it alone.There is room. If the local district league are rowing behind one club, the club is off to a good start. There are standout regions without LoI representation. Is there a standout town?

[culloty82]

Mullingar, as mentioned above, would seem one, and Clonmel is arguably another candidate, only for the rivalry between Clonmel Celtic and St Michael's halving its potential.

[legendz]

A businessman imported a team in 2001 to try and gain entry for Mullingar to the Eircom League! Neither Mullingar nor Clonmel joined the A Championship 08-11 era. They haven't stepped up to the youth leagues either.
Tipperary South had reasonable representation success in the old Oscar Traynor Cup. If Tipperary South have any appetite for LoI football, a representative team in the youth leagues would be the route to take.
Will Westmeath benefit from an Athlone v Mullingar rivalry? If anyone in Mullingar can match the appetite of 20 years ago, the youth leagues again are the place to build a team. Do Clonmel and Mullingar have a football ground acceptable for the First Division?

[EatYerGreens]

There is another indirect advantage to a pyramid which i think is pertinent to the LOI. That is, whenever a club gets into financial difficulties, something hardly unkown in the LOI, there is enormous pressure on the FAI to keep them going since there are no obvious alternatives ready to step up in their place.

I'm not sure this is true tbh. You only need to look at the many clubs that have dropped out of the league to see it.

Can you give examples of clubs where the FAI has been under enormous presure to keep them going, and has acted as a result? Beyond stepping in to save the stadium for future football use, the FAI seems generally happy to NOT bail out LOI clbs. There are plenty of examples where it has watched as clubs have gone bankrupt (even big ones like Cork).

[EalingGreen]

I'm not sure this is true tbh. You only need to look at the many clubs that have dropped out of the league to see it.

Can you give examples of clubs where the FAI has been under enormous presure to keep them going, and has acted as a result? Beyond stepping in to save the stadium for future football use, the FAI seems generally happy to NOT bail out LOI clbs. There are plenty of examples where it has watched as clubs have gone bankrupt (even big ones like Cork).
Fair enough, badly expressed on my part.

What I was referring to was an attitude at the FAI of:
1. "Let's just get new clubs in", without asking too many questions about the owners, or their business plan etc;
2. Then don't ask too many questions eg if it appears they're spending money that they don't actually have;
3. Where possible, bail them out by buying the ground, as you say. Of course, not every (many?) LOI clubs actually own their ground, but where this does happen, the FAI must be reluctant to charge a full and fair market rent, which further absolves the tenant club from operating responsibly. (The FAI aren't likely to evict them, are they?);
4. And if a club goes bust anyway, dont ask too many questions about the Phoenix Club which takes their place.

This doesn't do anything for "moral hazard" (correct term?), which itself explains why such a high percentage of clubs have gone bust over the years.

Whereas if there was a proper pyramid, struggling clubs be more likely to rein in their spending earlier, since they know there is a lower tier to "cushion their landing". (Bangor FC found mid-season they couldn't compete financially in the IL top tier, but voluntarily withdrew to the third tier at the end of the season, after having fulfilled all their fixtures).

While clubs which still ignore all this and fail can more easily be replaced, thereby reducing the pressure ("desperation") on the FAI to allow a Phoenix Club back in, and at a level (2nd tier) which may be too much for them.

[sullanefc]

Nope! During United's absence Salthill & Mervue were the only show in town. I recall United briefly fielding an underage squad that seriously flopped. Salthill briefly rebranded as SD Galway in an attempt to win former United fans, that also failed miserably.

My father, from rural Galway, worked in Mervue at the time. He recalls a friend telling him he should obviously start supporting Mervue now. He told him he'd rather watch his local junior club in the third tier of the Galway district league, his friend was quite bemused at that statement but I think it speaks to why clubs like Kerry FC have a chance.

I lost interest in the LOI and football in general during that whole ****show. I only came back to it during covid. I suppose it would have been avoided if Mervue & Salthill were relegated like they should have been, but a lot of people in Galway are still skeptical of a pyramid for this very reason. For them, Galway United is essentially the county board. I think there should be room for counties that want to all row in behind the one club and towns that want to go it alone.

This, for me anyway, is why I'm not sold/all in on the pyramid model. What happened in Galway was a farce. I'm not 100% pro franchise model either, (hello Dublin City). I was disappointed that Kildare County didn't work out, but look, we learn from mistakes, and it seems Kerry FC are doing things the right way so far.

They are not really Tralee Dynamos in disguise a la Newbridge/Kildare. They have been running underage for years now, with (what seems like) buy in from around the Kerry league. I hope it works out for them. As a Cork City fan living in Kerry, I intend to buy a season ticket and attend as many games in Tralee as I can and whenever I can't get to Turners Cross.

[Nesta99]

I think in a pyramid system, what happened in Galway at that time would be the exception rather than the rule. Very small clubs can have a good run over a couple of years with promotion but rarely is it consolidated and sustained. Whatever about the payday that would bring about in other leagues there isnt the money in LoI to keep a team together, strengthen etc. without decent commercial activity like ticket sales they would fall away. Its worth it though, if 2 teams from the same catchment end in the same league on merit so be it, to have a proper structure has more benefits than the occasional possibility of a Mervue and Salthill situation. There is also the chance that the story of a small club climbing the ranks would be embraced in a pyramid structure. The real problem with 2 or 3 Galway clubs in LoI at that time was that it made no sense to parachute the clubs in to a closed off senior league or that applications were made most based on local one-upmanship.

[pineapple stu]

I think in a pyramid system, what happened in Galway at that time would be the exception rather than the rule. Very small clubs can have a good run over a couple of years with promotion but rarely is it consolidated and sustained.
Yeah, I can't understand how people still go on about the Galway happenings as an argument against a pyramid, while completely ignoring that Salthill/Mervue would have been relegated every year of their LoI existence with a proper pyramid, and probably wouldn't have reached the third tier in the first place.

If anything, what happened is an argument to get rid of the application process for new clubs - which is basically "ask nicely and we'll let you in" - and replace it with something like, say, a pyramid

[legendz]

The Galway example is used because there is a fear of a repeat of too many clubs for an area. We know the areas without LoI representation. 5 of these have joined the youth leagues.
Areas without LoI representation, not listing Youth League clubs:
Fingal County (Shelbourne declined an opportunity to move. Fair enough if that's not where they want to represent.)
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown (Yes, I'm excluding UCD.)
Laois (Laois Offaly might follow the example of Carlow Kilkenny?)
Offaly (Laois Offaly as mentioned above.)
Meath (Listed but represented by Drogheda??)
Tipperary (North Tipperary can lean towards Treaty. The south by Waterford?)
Clare (Listed but Treaty United are there for the Mid West)
Roscommon (Represented by Sligo Rovers to the north and Athlone to the south?)
Leitrim (Listed but Sligo Rovers are in the Sligo Leitrim District region.)

[nigel-harps1954]

Simply listing areas where there are no teams is not going to magically fix any problems.

With a pyramid, you'd be allowing a team to grow naturally before they get any top division promotions, instead of a junior club jumping up into League of Ireland without ever building from the ground up, such was the case in Mervue and Salthill.

Any club who wants to build through the divisions would be building up their fanbase, their structures on and off the field, and their facilities (hopefully), as they climb through the divisions, giving them a chance to become a decent level club as they grow. The system we have at the minute doesn't allow for that.

If a club has ambitions to join the league of Ireland from junior level, they must be afforded the opportunity to build their club to the relevant standard, allowing for them to fall back somewhat gracefully if it doesn't work out for them, and not a shunt back to the bottom rung of their junior leagues.

[EalingGreen]

Simply listing areas where there are no teams is not going to magically fix any problems.

With a pyramid, you'd be allowing a team to grow naturally before they get any top division promotions, instead of a junior club jumping up into League of Ireland without ever building from the ground up, such was the case in Mervue and Salthill.

Any club who wants to build through the divisions would be building up their fanbase, their structures on and off the field, and their facilities (hopefully), as they climb through the divisions, giving them a chance to become a decent level club as they grow. The system we have at the minute doesn't allow for that.

If a club has ambitions to join the league of Ireland from junior level, they must be afforded the opportunity to build their club to the relevant standard, allowing for them to fall back somewhat gracefully if it doesn't work out for them, and not a shunt back to the bottom rung of their junior leagues.
Spot on!

Though I would make one small, but critical qualification. You talk of clubs: "building up... ... their facilities (hopefully)", but there should be no "hopefully" about it imo.

For as clubs rise up the pyramid on the field, they should also be required simultaneously to meet minimum infrastructure standards off it, esp their stadium, otherwise they get get denied promotion.

This is essential to stop clubs putting all their money into players' wages in a short-term dash for promotion. While building proper facilities can raise money to help them survive and thrive in the medium to long term, effectively paying for itself.

I mean, look to how well Shamrock Rvrs. are doing, in a stadium which isn't even in their traditional catchment (I think?).

(And yes, I know they received enormous assistance from the local Council etc, but the principle remains)

[nigel-harps1954]

Spot on!

Though I would make one small, but critical qualification. You talk of clubs: "building up... ... their facilities (hopefully)", but there should be no "hopefully" about it imo.

For as clubs rise up the pyramid on the field, they should also be required simultaneously to meet minimum infrastructure standards off it, esp their stadium, otherwise they get get denied promotion.

This is essential to stop clubs putting all their money into players' wages in a short-term dash for promotion. While building proper facilities can raise money to help them survive and thrive in the medium to long term, effectively paying for itself.

I mean, look to how well Shamrock Rvrs. are doing, in a stadium which isn't even in their traditional catchment (I think?).

(And yes, I know they received enormous assistance from the local Council etc, but the principle remains)

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with that. But this is the FAI.

[EatYerGreens]

This is essential to stop clubs putting all their money into players' wages...

I mean, look to how well Shamrock Rvrs. are doing, in a stadium which isn't even in their traditional catchment (I think?).

Thank God for Rovers puting all their money into their stadium rather than their team :p

[legendz]

Simply listing areas where there are no teams is not going to magically fix any problems.

With a pyramid, you'd be allowing a team to grow naturally before they get any top division promotions, instead of a junior club jumping up into League of Ireland without ever building from the ground up, such was the case in Mervue and Salthill.

Any club who wants to build through the divisions would be building up their fanbase, their structures on and off the field, and their facilities (hopefully), as they climb through the divisions, giving them a chance to become a decent level club as they grow. The system we have at the minute doesn't allow for that.

If a club has ambitions to join the league of Ireland from junior level, they must be afforded the opportunity to build their club to the relevant standard, allowing for them to fall back somewhat gracefully if it doesn't work out for them, and not a shunt back to the bottom rung of their junior leagues.Clubs can build through the youth leagues too, as a number are doing. It can take around 5 years.

[EalingGreen]

Thank God for Rovers puting all their money into their stadium rather than their team :p
Not what I was saying.

My point is that clubs should be mandated to have off-the-field facilities and infrastructure to match their on-field status as they rise up the leagues, regardless of where the funding of it comes from (Council, benefactor, sponsor etc).

And Shams are a good example of how top quality facilities generate greater funds, which can in turn lead to greater success on the field.

[sbgawa]

Not what I was saying.

My point is that clubs should be mandated to have off-the-field facilities and infrastructure to match their on-field status as they rise up the leagues, regardless of where the funding of it comes from (Council, benefactor, sponsor etc).

And Shams are a good example of how top quality facilities generate greater funds, which can in turn lead to greater success on the field.

You are right on the point of making facilities a requirement for advancement, that is how they have done it in the UK and it has brought standards up everywhere.
As an example For anyone who hasnt watched "The class of 92" Salford story, they had to keep improving their facilities through promotion through 3 or 4 divisions.

[EalingGreen]

You are right on the point of making facilities a requirement for advancement, that is how they have done it in the UK and it has brought standards up everywhere.
As an example For anyone who hasnt watched "The class of 92" Salford story, they had to keep improving their facilities through promotion through 3 or 4 divisions.
"It will cost Sutton United in excess of £500,000 to install a grass pitch and meet the requirements of the English Football League next season.

The U's began work on Monday to tear up the artificial 3G surface at Gander Green Lane after sealing the National League title and a historic promotion.

EFL rules state all matches must be played on grass surfaces.

Sutton become the second club in two years forced to swap their artificial pitch for grass, following Harrogate Town last summer.

The Yorkshire club started the 2020-21 campaign groundsharing at Doncaster after winning promotion to League Two via the play-offs."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57336301

[legendz]

Not what I was saying.

My point is that clubs should be mandated to have off-the-field facilities and infrastructure to match their on-field status as they rise up the leagues, regardless of where the funding of it comes from (Council, benefactor, sponsor etc).

And Shams are a good example of how top quality facilities generate greater funds, which can in turn lead to greater success on the field. It's a fair shout that certain facilities must be in place. A potential third tier like the old A Championship should be relaxed on that score. The criteria should come into play for First Division licence. A Premier Division licence then should have more stringent criteria.
I think some criteria is already in place. Jackman Park in Limerick wasn't suitable for Premier Division. Kerry might get away with Mounthawk Park in it's current form but generally speaking there will be stadia criteria for any entity seeking to join the league.

[nigel-harps1954]

"It will cost Sutton United in excess of £500,000 to install a grass pitch and meet the requirements of the English Football League next season.

The U's began work on Monday to tear up the artificial 3G surface at Gander Green Lane after sealing the National League title and a historic promotion.

EFL rules state all matches must be played on grass surfaces.

Sutton become the second club in two years forced to swap their artificial pitch for grass, following Harrogate Town last summer.

The Yorkshire club started the 2020-21 campaign groundsharing at Doncaster after winning promotion to League Two via the play-offs."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57336301

Pretty sure the FA puts up the money for any clubs who need stadium developments there, as a loan type arrangement.

[EalingGreen]

Pretty sure the FA puts up the money for any clubs who need stadium developments there, as a loan type arrangement.
Sounds right, but consider this: if they should get relegated again after a season or two, they no longer have their plastic pitch, but any loans would still have to be repaid.

While the grass pitch is only a part of it:
"Factoring in the required upgrades of turnstiles, floodlights and seating for away supporters, Elliott estimates almost all of the £1m they will receive for winning promotion has been spent on stadium improvements. The pitch, which was used by women’s, disability, academy and walking football sides, was also the first team’s training pitch so they now train on fields that belong to Sutton Grammar school."
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jul/22/sutton-get-ready-for-first-shot-at-the-big-time-league-two-promoted

[EatYerGreens]

You are right on the point of making facilities a requirement for advancement, that is how they have done it in the UK and it has brought standards up everywhere.
As an example For anyone who hasnt watched "The class of 92" Salford story, they had to keep improving their facilities through promotion through 3 or 4 divisions.

That works perfectly in a pyramid system that has approx 20 tiers. But there is nowhere left for the likes of Finn Harps or Drogheda to advance to.

A better situation in Ireland would be a model whereby the standards for each tier are increased every so often via the licensing. Promotion shouldn't be the only time when an Irish club faces a requirement to improve their facilities.

[Burnsie]

A couple of weeks ago, the LSL resoundingly voted against a switch to a calendar year season, which would have been from 2024.

That will put a spanner in the works if it were anticipated that a couple of its top clubs would participate in the third tier, because - if any team did choose to move across - it will mean no competitive matches between May and February/March in the relevant year. You'd end up with entire squad spending half of the intermediate season "on loan" somewhere so it would be an almighty mess

[EatYerGreens]

A couple of weeks ago, the LSL resoundingly voted against a switch to a calendar year season, which would have been from 2024.

That will put a spanner in the works if it were anticipated that a couple of its top clubs would participate in the third tier, because - if any team did choose to move across - it will mean no competitive matches between May and February/March in the relevant year. You'd end up with entire squad spending half of the intermediate season "on loan" somewhere so it would be an almighty mess

It's not ideal by any means, but I wouldn't describe it as an "almighty mess". It's a one-off thing for ambitious cliubs who want to progress on and off the pitch. If you're in the 3 senior tiers afterwards for 20 or 30 years, what does it matter that there was a few months of transition to get to there. It would only really be a mess for any clubs who went up and then back down again after one year.

This LSL vote suggests to me that the FAI hasn't done its work in persuading the various leagues of the merits of everything in Irish football being aligned chronicologically (if it has even tried, that is)

[legendz]

A couple of weeks ago, the LSL resoundingly voted against a switch to a calendar year season, which would have been from 2024.

That will put a spanner in the works if it were anticipated that a couple of its top clubs would participate in the third tier, because - if any team did choose to move across - it will mean no competitive matches between May and February/March in the relevant year. You'd end up with entire squad spending half of the intermediate season "on loan" somewhere so it would be an almighty messThe SFAI/DDSL, MSL and LSL are all examples of why the pyramid system is pie in the sky. The third tier type A Championship is the only way to circumvent the nonsense.

[nigel-harps1954]

LSL shouldn't be given the opportunity to vote. If the FAI are serious about footballing reforms they need to enforce calendar season across the board.

[pineapple stu]

The effective third tier being run at a completely different time to the first and second tiers can quite rightly be described as an "almighty mess" in fairness.

[legendz]

Across the water, U23 teams have competed in the EFL Trophy. That was controversial enough but more acceptable for EFL clubs than U23 teams joined League One and League Two.
U23 teams in England then compete in a separate league with relegation to test them in that environment.
The First Division as we know have been completely against the idea of second teams joining the division. A third tier can be a blank canvas opportunity to form a "Second Division". Allow second teams (U23) but with the stipulation that they cannot be promoted to the First Division. Second teams can have a stipulation that at least 5 outfield players are U23. Third level institutions that aren't part of the youth leagues can similarly be granted an U23 licence.

Example "Second Division":
Carlow Kilkenny*
Cavan Monaghan*
Kildare*
Mayo*
Shamrock Rovers U23
UCC U23
UL U23
NUIG U23
* Only these first teams can be considered for promotion to the First Division.

[sbgawa]

Across the water, U23 teams have competed in the EFL Trophy. That was controversial enough but more acceptable for EFL clubs than U23 teams joined League One and League Two.
U23 teams in England then compete in a separate league with relegation to test them in that environment.
The First Division as we know have been completely against the idea of second teams joining the division. A third tier can be a blank canvas opportunity to form a "Second Division". Allow second teams (U23) but with the stipulation that they cannot be promoted to the First Division. Second teams can have a stipulation that at least 5 outfield players are U23. Third level institutions that aren't part of the youth leagues can similarly be granted an U23 licence.

Example "Second Division":
Carlow Kilkenny*
Cavan Monaghan*
Kildare*
Mayo*
Shamrock Rovers U23
UCC U23
UL U23
NUIG U23
* Only these first teams can be considered for promotion to the First Division.

I disagree with not allowing promotion to division 1 for reserve teams.
Why on earth would Rovers or any of the other teams have the expense of running a team in the 3rd division where the standard would be very weak by definition and you have no hope of advancement.
Promotion to the Premier division should be out for Rovers or any other reserve team but if UCC or UL or NUIG are good enough to be promoted what makes them different from UCD?

[legendz]

I disagree with not allowing promotion to division 1 for reserve teams.
Why on earth would Rovers or any of the other teams have the expense of running a team in the 3rd division where the standard would be very weak by definition and you have no hope of advancement.
Promotion to the Premier division should be out for Rovers or any other reserve team but if UCC or UL or NUIG are good enough to be promoted what makes them different from UCD?Why did Shamrock Rovers previously enter the First Division when no promotion was available?
An U23 licence should be granted for any level below the First Division. If UCC or UL or NUIG want to earn promotion to the First Division, they'll have to qualify for a First Division licence instead of an U23 licence. That should require joining the youth leagues.

[sbgawa]

Why did Shamrock Rovers previously enter the First Division when no promotion was available?
An U23 licence should be granted for any level below the First Division. If UCC or UL or NUIG want to earn promotion to the First Division, they'll have to qualify for a First Division licence instead of an U23 licence. That should require joining the youth leagues.

Because the first division was a reasonable standard and was a reasonably attractive option to retain academy players who were being recruited by other teams while they developed into first team players.
Promotion to the first division should be allowed on merit

[legendz]

Because the first division was a reasonable standard and was a reasonably attractive option to retain academy players who were being recruited by other teams while they developed into first team players.
Promotion to the first division should be allowed on merit
If First Division clubs are adamant against it, it should not be forced down their throats. If Shamrock Rovers likewise are adamant against a Second Division without promotion, so be it.

[sbgawa]

If First Division clubs are adamant against it, it should not be forced down their throats. If Shamrock Rovers likewise are adamant against a Second Division without promotion, so be it.

Its up to the FAI to lead not allow a few clubs veto ideas for self preservation and to try to avoid relegation..
If the FAI want the better clubs to invest in their academies they have to have a prospect of retaining talent past 19 years old.
Its harder for kids to break into Derry/Dundalk/Rovers first team at 18/19 so they need a place to play at a high standard while remaining attached to the club and training with them everyday to progress

[legendz]

Its up to the FAI to lead not allow a few clubs veto ideas for self preservation and to try to avoid relegation..
If the FAI want the better clubs to invest in their academies they have to have a prospect of retaining talent past 19 years old.
Its harder for kids to break into Derry/Dundalk/Rovers first team at 18/19 so they need a place to play at a high standard while remaining attached to the club and training with them everyday to progressI agree about giving clubs the opportunity to retain players past U19. We'll have to agree to disagree about the First Division or potential Second Division being a fair level.

[GUFCghost]

Is there another country in Europe that went from having a poor & disjointed pyramid to something that actually works?

[culloty82]

Is there another country in Europe that went from having a poor & disjointed pyramid to something that actually works?

Wales had a similarly disjointed system, largely run by local leagues, until the FAW imposed a coherent, joined-up affair from HQ:

https://www.faw.cymru/en/about-faw/domestic/pyramid-review/

[EalingGreen]

Is there another country in Europe that went from having a poor & disjointed pyramid to something that actually works?
Ahem...

"In 2010-11, a "pyramid" system was introduced, with the possibility of promotion and relegation between the national league [3 x divisions each of 12 teams] and the four regional intermediate leagues..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system

[The Bowler]

Another big issue here is underage structures. Currently LOI clubs are obligated to provide underage structures. Let's say after 3 or 4 years of 3rd tier, you could have 3 or 4 teams promoted into the 1st Division, and same number potentially the other way. The teams promoted have no underage structures (certainly not at national level) and those relegated stillbearing the costs of their previously compulsory underage academy structures. FAI can't even enforce a common football calendar year, what chance of them ever being able to get this away. The only way football pyramid structure can work in this country is to firstly align the seasons, and secondly go down the roD of municipal stadia jointly funded by FAI, Lottery, Govt and Private partnership. No facilities equals no meaningful future. Its a 10 year plan at a minimum and requires fully joined up thinking. I'm not hopeful

[legendz]

The mooted third tier can be the start of the construction of a national pyramid, separate to the senior leagues and district leagues.
LoI clubs accepted that the A Championship offered promotion for First teams only. An "A Championship" or "National League" can be created for the same purposes.
Let interested clubs and non league entities join the league, as long as they are integrated into the youth leagues as well.
I've rebranded my earlier example as follows:
Example "National League":
Carlow Kilkenny*
Cavan Monaghan*
Kildare*
Mayo*
Shamrock Rovers U23
UCC U23
UL U23
NUIG U23
* Only the best of these first teams can be considered for a promotion/relegation play-off to the First Division.
If the National League example above was to expand to more than 16 teams, it could split into an extra tier.

[culloty82]

Another big issue here is underage structures. Currently LOI clubs are obligated to provide underage structures. Let's say after 3 or 4 years of 3rd tier, you could have 3 or 4 teams promoted into the 1st Division, and same number potentially the other way. The teams promoted have no underage structures (certainly not at national level) and those relegated stillbearing the costs of their previously compulsory underage academy structures. FAI can't even enforce a common football calendar year, what chance of them ever being able to get this away. The only way football pyramid structure can work in this country is to firstly align the seasons, and secondly go down the roD of municipal stadia jointly funded by FAI, Lottery, Govt and Private partnership. No facilities equals no meaningful future. Its a 10 year plan at a minimum and requires fully joined up thinking. I'm not hopeful

Certainly, the RSC is an excellent facility, which shows the potential of the model .

[Neish]

I disagree with not allowing promotion to division 1 for reserve teams.
Why on earth would Rovers or any of the other teams have the expense of running a team in the 3rd division where the standard would be very weak by definition and you have no hope of advancement.
Promotion to the Premier division should be out for Rovers or any other reserve team but if UCC or UL or NUIG are good enough to be promoted what makes them different from UCD?

To give game time to fringe players, to ease player back from injury, and third but not last they did it before with Shamrock Rovers B in the first division.
Reserve sides in lower tiers not eligible for promotion happens across Europe

[EalingGreen]

The mooted third tier can be the start of the construction of a national pyramid...
No offence, but that doesn't make any sense.

For the whole point about a pyramid is that it should be possible, in theory at least, for each and every member to rise from base to apex, subject only to meeting playing standards on the field, and minimum infrastructure standards off it.

Hence there should be a "level playing field" (sorry) for membership, meaning no distinctions between different types of team (Reserve teams, Further Education teams, age restrictions etc), with each member expected to live within its means according to raising revenues from the normal sources - gate receipts, sponsorship, corporate, advertising, benefactors, social clubs etc. How many of your proposed members would be up to that?

Meanwhile, if it takes such contortions to come up with a 3rd tier, where are you going to find the teams to fill a 4th, 5th or 6th tier underneath? (All of which is before you address the summer/winter conundrum, remember)

And even if you did, would all your 3rd tier teams be able or willing to accept relegation to the 4th or 5th tier, should they hit a rough patch on the field?

In the end, you can only fit so many square pegs into round holes - sooner or later you're going to have to start finding round pegs.


... separate to the senior leagues and district leagues.
Sorry, but I don't quite understand this?

Or shouldn't additional tiers to the pyramid come from such resiources?

[EatYerGreens]

Three tiers IS a pyramid. Just a rather small one.

[EalingGreen]

Why on earth would Rovers or any of the other teams have the expense of running a team in the 3rd division where the standard would be very weak by definition and you have no hope of advancement.


To give game time to fringe players, to ease player back from injury, and third but not last they did it before with Shamrock Rovers B in the first division.
Reserve sides in lower tiers not eligible for promotion happens across Europe
In order to provide square holes* for square pegs, the NIFL operates a "Premiership Development" (Reserve) league for the 12 clubs in the Premiership:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/premiership-development-league/2021-2022/standings/

While 9 of the teams in the Championship who operate a reserve team are in the Championship Development league, along with 7 other leading clubs with development teams who wish to compete at that level:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/championship-development-league/2021-2022/standings/


* - Even Glenavon have a Reserve team, and Lurgan's one (s)quare hole!

[pineapple stu]

Three tiers IS a pyramid. Just a rather small one.
It's a disjointed one given the amount of leagues that aren't connected. And effectively useless as a result. So if it's a pyramid, it's not remotely worth red name in practice