Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[pineapple stu]

It'd be over in 24 hours if it was a NATO/Ukraine v Russia war in reality. Its very simple really, NATO are not at war.
Geopolitics is rarely, if ever, simple.

Yes, if NATO waded in in their own name, we'd all quite possibly be living out the film Threads right now. But that doesn't change the fact that, to all intents and purposes, it is NATO by proxy who are fighting Russia.

Again, most people can see that while the defence isn't being carried out in NATO's name, it's entirely reasonable to describe it as Ukraine/NATO. Especially in a flippant remark about Pat O'Sullivan.

[pineapple stu]

Of all the consequences of the Ukraine/Nato v Russia war the granting of extra play money to Paud is arguably the most serious.
Question btw. (On topic, if I may)

What's the "extra play money" bit about?

[Kiki Balboa]

Look, I will just say this. If anyone thinks this is a Russian/ NNATO war , I have some ivemectin to sell you.

It is demonstrably false claim to make, no matter how it 'feels' to you.

[Lim till i die]

Question btw. (On topic, if I may)

What's the "extra play money" bit about?

Limerick FCs proposed training centre in Bruff is currently home to around 300 Ukrainians.

"Rubbing fat onto a sows arse" is how my dear oul da related the news.

[Buller]

Geopolitics is rarely, if ever, simple.


Well this is kinda is, Russia is at war with Ukraine. Supporting each side with weapons are NATO, Australia, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea, Finland, Sweden, Belarus etc.

To put one actor on one side without mentioning the full picture infers bias, which I think Eat Your Greens picked up on.
'Ukraine/NATO v Russia war' is objectively an incorrect/bias statement.

[Buller]

I enjoyed this off-topicness. So eh, that third tier huh?

[pineapple stu]

Well this is kinda is, Russia is at war with Ukraine. Supporting each side with weapons are NATO, Australia, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea, Finland, Sweden, Belarus etc.

To put one actor on one side without mentioning the full picture infers bias, which I think Eat Your Greens picked up on.
'Ukraine/NATO v Russia war' is objectively an incorrect/bias statement.
If changing LTID's post in your mind to Ukraine/NATO v Russia/Iran makes you feel better, then off you go. That it's biased to leave out the "Iran" bit is nonsense. And a core argument that geopolitics is simple really isn't a great one.

[Lim till i die]

I enjoyed this off-topicness. So eh, that third tier huh?

Should be mostly reserve teams imo.

So probably won't happen and if it does happen it'll be a great big farce

Prove me wrong irish football, prove me wrong!

[pineapple stu]

I enjoyed this off-topicness. So eh, that third tier huh?


Interesting paragraph in today's Sunday Independent report on yesterday's FAI AGM, where Mark Scanlan discusses the third tier plans - he says he prefers not to consider it as another layer of the LoI, as it would have links down as well as up, as part of a broader discussion on a pyramid. He still hopes to be able to launch next year, but (and this is my personal opinion following) better to accept a delay of a year or two if necessary to get all stakeholders onside, rather than rushing to meet a self-imposed deadline and having to rewrite plans.

These comments from Mark Scanlon sound quite reasonable. Though how he expects to get all stakeholders onside is the big problem that doesn't yet seem to have a solution.

I suspect we'll be having the same exact discussions in three years' time.

Edit - interesting comments on the BBC today (https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/64384670) from the owner of Darvel, the Scottish sixth-tier side who beat Aberdeen last night -


We have the pyramid system now. Well done to the Scottish FA for agreeing to do this, but it now needs looked at. I think last night shows the strength of teams. We can be a force in Scottish football, but we need this pyramid system to work better for us and enable us to get up the leagues.

So an ambitious club have scope for improving themselves. Sounds the kind of stuff you'd want to encourage really. (I suspect what he wants "looked at" is that there's only one team relegated from the Lowland league and three regional champions from the tier below have to play off for one promotion spot, so Darvel didn't go up despite winning their league. It would make far more sense for each champion to be promoted and three teams to be relegated)

[nigel-harps1954]

NATO FC to join the third tier.

[pineapple stu]

Well we nearly had Irish Sea FC, so I guess why not?

[EatYerGreens]

LTID of all posters is well able to stick up for himself, but where did he say anyone other than Russia was responsible for what's happening right now?

And the amount of offence being taken at the notion that the NATO bloc is (rightly) helping out in the background/by proxy is bizarre.

No-one questioned that NATO are helping out in the defense of Ukraine. But that doesn't mean they're at war. And if accuracy re all who are involved was his thing, surely LTID should've said 'Russia/Iran/North Korea/Belarus' - as those countries are also supplying war arms and resources to Russia, just like NATO is ?

Let's call it out for what it was = a very cheap political point. Sad that some think it's cool and edgy to muddy the waters and go easy on Russia despite their horrendous activities.

[EatYerGreens]

I think you're reading your own view into that first line tbh. I don't see anywhere in LTID's post any indication of who's responsible.

I'd say that listing Ukraine and NATO first in the 'Ukraine/NATO vs Russia' line places the emphasis on the former. Like it's them against Russia, when in reality this is all Russia's doing. It's them against everyone else (bar the mad mullahs, the North Korean tinpot, ad the Bealarussia puppet).

No matter what dancing on the head of a pin is done over this, there was no need to claim that NATO are at war with Russia. And to do so whilst ignoring the countries similarly lined-up on Russia's side is, as has been explained by Buller, clear evidence of one-sided bias. That it's a NATO proxy war - as if Ukraine are just a gormless puppet of the West - is the sort of nonsesense that apologists for Russia are very keen to spread.

[EatYerGreens]

NATO FC to join the third tier.

Limerick would veto them :D

LTID must be hankering after a return of the Limerick Soviet = Limerick Soviet - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Soviet)

[Lim till i die]

Mods,

Can we set up a seperate forum where people with reading comprehension difficulties can discuss what they think I think about things?

Thanks in advance.

Yours in football etc

[DCWA]

Is this the predictions thread?

What I would love to see this year is conclusive victories for Russia and Derry City in their domestic battles. My prediction however would probably have to be stalemate and 2nd place.

UCD bottom, Galway to come up and Rovers for the cup to round off.

[Eminence Grise]

TLDR the last two pages, but the gist is Kerry is joining NATO, right?

[EatYerGreens]

Mods,

Can we set up a seperate forum where people with reading comprehension difficulties can discuss what they think I think about things?

Thanks in advance.

Yours in football etc

Maybe another one for Russian sympathists to share nudey photos of Mick Wallace on too ? :p

[EatYerGreens]

TLDR the last two pages, but the gist is Kerry is joining NATO, right?

I thought it was that the Healy-Raes are taking over from Putin in a palace coup?

[Eminence Grise]

Kerry for samovars instead of Kerry for Sam?

[EatYerGreens]

Kerry for samovars instead of Kerry for Sam?

Kerry for S.A.M* ?

*(Surface to Air Missiles).

[Eminence Grise]

Outstanding!

[Lim till i die]

I humbly direct everyone to the Limerick FC Facebook page where rather than contact kids with details of the upcoming trials they've just posted a big list of children and told any children not on the list that they might have missed to contact them

Three cheers for the child protection officer!

[sbgawa]

I humbly direct everyone to the Limerick FC Facebook page where rather than contact kids with details of the upcoming trials they've just posted a big list of children and told any children not on the list that they might have missed to contact them

Three cheers for the child protection officer!

Holy sweet Mother, imagine the kids on that list that were trying to go for a trial on the Quiet..........apart from anything else...
Shocking

[NeverFeltBetter]

I humbly direct everyone to the Limerick FC Facebook page where rather than contact kids with details of the upcoming trials they've just posted a big list of children and told any children not on the list that they might have missed to contact them

Three cheers for the child protection officer!

Whoever is running that page/comms for the club is in desperate need of even the most basic IT training. Forget about Mail Merge, they need to figure out what the red lines underneath words mean.

[culloty82]

Looking at the current state of play with the current non-League underage sides, Dan McDonnell is reporting that Mayo have withdrawn for 2023, as they are still run by their Schoolboys League, and weren't ready to set up a separate legal company:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/calls-for-egm-in-mayo-as-its-confirmed-there-will-be-no-team-in-this-years-u-14-league-of-ireland-42315626.html

The article states that Cavan/Monaghan have also pulled out, and contrasts this with the current positions of CK United and Kildare.

[legendz]

A disappointing development in Mayo and Cavan/Monaghan. Hopefully it'll just be a step back before many steps forward.

[yurt]

Disappointing developments but after reading the article I think there's positives to be taken from the fact that the FAI is actually imposing the licensing requirements properly.
Refusing the second Mayo entity with the view the ensuring something works in the county long term. Hopefully Mayo and Cavan/Monaghan will come back with more solid foundations in place.

[legendz]

... but after reading the article I think there's positives to be taken from the fact that the FAI is actually imposing the licensing requirements properly.
Refusing the second Mayo entity with the view the ensuring something works in the county long term...Fair point. When there was a free spot in the First Division there was no knee jerk reaction to fill the gap. They went with 9 clubs for the season and the process of Kerry applying for and being assessed for a license seemed to be a fair process.

[JC_GUFC]

Just looking at this and seeing the progress of CK United it seems very likely that they'd be one of the first teams in line for a third tier as they have an u19 team in both men's and women's and a few other underage men's teams. The question of where they will play their home games is something that is bound to come up though.

At the moment their Men's u19 team are now playing at Killeshin FC, in County Laois but close to Carlow town with other teams playing at St Patrick's Boys FC in Carlow town.

The obvious answer to a Carlow/Kilkenny club would be the refurbish Buckley Park in Kilkenny but I may be wrong on this but I've always had the feeling that this club is more Carlow than Kilkenny - I don't know is there any connection to the FC Carlow club that played in the A Championship for a season.

[nigel-harps1954]

Just looking at this and seeing the progress of CK United it seems very likely that they'd be one of the first teams in line for a third tier as they have an u19 team in both men's and women's and a few other underage men's teams. The question of where they will play their home games is something that is bound to come up though.

At the moment their Men's u19 team are now playing at Killeshin FC, in County Laois but close to Carlow town with other teams playing at St Patrick's Boys FC in Carlow town.

The obvious answer to a Carlow/Kilkenny club would be the refurbish Buckley Park in Kilkenny but I may be wrong on this but I've always had the feeling that this club is more Carlow than Kilkenny - I don't know is there any connection to the FC Carlow club that played in the A Championship for a season.

The FC Carlow team played out of Ballon if I remember right. There's a decent junior scene in Carlow and if the club could base themselves out of Carlow town they'd have potential to do well.

The obvious go-to ground would be Carlow IT as most of the grounds in the Carlow league are basic fields and parks.

[Martinho II]

The FC Carlow team played out of Ballon if I remember right. There's a decent junior scene in Carlow and if the club could base themselves out of Carlow town they'd have potential to do well.

The obvious go-to ground would be Carlow IT as most of the grounds in the Carlow league are basic fields and parks.

Im not familar with underage down that side of the country wot does CK stand for? Is that Carlow Kilkenny?

[culloty82]

Yes, Carlow-Kilkenny, they were run by the local District League, but as per the new FAI policy, they had to incorporate as a separate club this year.

[Nesta99]

Now theres a Kerry LoI side in Division 1 does Legendz stick with the call for a third tier where there could be relegation risk or narrow the perspective to protect his own club? Im not sure Id see a bigger picture if Dundalk were at risk in some way (even with league restructures, dvds, Drogheda's AIL efforts et al having come and gone wihout killing us off).

[culloty82]

If it goes ahead as planned next year, and by that point Kerry FC haven't progressed to any significant degree over their second season, then absolutely, they would merit relegation, whether that should be automatically, or by play-off against the best placed senior team in the lower tier, and indeed having to regroup might help to become more competitive in the long run. That said, the delay to 2024, which effectively makes this season a "free run", may help to sort out which squad members will ultimately deserve new contracts, or indeed whether new inputs at coaching and admin levels might be required.

[legendz]

Now theres a Kerry LoI side in Division 1 does Legendz stick with the call for a third tier where there could be relegation risk or narrow the perspective to protect his own club? Im not sure Id see a bigger picture if Dundalk were at risk in some way (even with league restructures, dvds, Drogheda's AIL efforts et al having come and gone wihout killing us off).If a third tier club hold a First Division licence and are the top first team in the third tier, they should get to playoff against 10th in the First Division.

[Nesta99]

Interesting and in many ways refreshing that the default mode is not typical of the old LoI 'now were in lets keep the safer status quo'.

[legendz]

There seems to be a good balance to the two divisions of 10. A single third tier seems to be the next logical step. A mix of first teams and B teams. If a third tier gets off the ground I think it will require at least 6 B teams and 2 first teams e.g. CK and Kildare.
Outside of Shamrock Rovers, are there 5 clubs likely to be able to commit to fielding a second team? If a third tier gets off the ground, there will be an established pathway. If Bernard O'Byrne is to target LoI football in Meath, the blueprint to follow will be build up through the youth leagues and after U19, continue at the third tier level. Attain a First Division licence and earn a playoff shot.
A third tier can be multipurpose. An opportunity for new clubs to build. An opportunity for youth players in bigger clubs to build up experience in their second teams, after U19 before potentially breaking into their first teams.
Did James McClean play for Derry in the A Championship?

[Nesta99]

For clubs in the larger catchment areas its a no brainer to have a B team. I hope there is the ability to play senior players returning from injury, limited to say 3 senior slots. Can U19s be drafted in also as they can with the senior side if need be. I could see it as a bit of a struggle for Dundalk to have a decent quality number of B team players unless there is a recruitment drive and scout in to Monaghan, maybe a few cast offs from Dublin academies. Im not sure we still have the link up with Malahide. It could also be worth looking toward Souh Down/Armagh. If B teams are not obviously able to be promoted then using the third tier for return to play for senior players is a significant incentive. I wouldnt want to weaken an u19 side as the effort should be to target a stint in European comp for invaluable player development and experience. It could also allow for local players to be scouted and brought in to see if they can make an impact though I dont know what the relationship is with junior sides in AUL/MDL local teams and whther they would allow their sides being weakened. Dundalk FC have not been great imo with youth development bar occasional talent like O'Kane, Adedokan, young Mayo, Odumosu even, so to varying degress there are a few young lads that were on the books that are about the league, Adedokan still at Brentford I think. But we need to get better in this area. To kick on i'd like to see joint initiatives with local education providers eg maybe a some boarders scholarships with the likes of Dundalk Grammar School and then DkIT. Make the club attractive on a much more rounded basis than just football and then develop a B side from there.

[Martinho II]

There seems to be a good balance to the two divisions of 10. A single third tier seems to be the next logical step. A mix of first teams and B teams. If a third tier gets off the ground I think it will require at least 6 B teams and 2 first teams e.g. CK and Kildare.
Outside of Shamrock Rovers, are there 5 clubs likely to be able to commit to fielding a second team? If a third tier gets off the ground, there will be an established pathway. If Bernard O'Byrne is to target LoI football in Meath, the blueprint to follow will be build up through the youth leagues and after U19, continue at the third tier level. Attain a First Division licence and earn a playoff shot.
A third tier can be multipurpose. An opportunity for new clubs to build. An opportunity for youth players in bigger clubs to build up experience in their second teams, after U19 before potentially breaking into their first teams.
Did James McClean play for Derry in the A Championship?

As far as I remember JMC played for Derry 1st team XI.

[outspoken]

No fear of that third tier coming in for a long time yet. Another failure of the "new FAI"

[legendz]

As far as I remember JMC played for Derry 1st team XI.
https://www.extratime.com/fixtures/2008-a-championship-group-1/finn-harps-a-v-derry-city-reserves/10967/4/report/
A match report from the A Championship in 2008.

[Burnsie]

If there's a third tier up and running before 2026 - and I won't be holding my breath - it'll just be a glorified reserve league padded out by a university or two and a couple of those league representative sides like CK and Mayo.

When Scanlon went on OTB he spoke about connecting it downward as well as upwards - i.e. to creta a pyramid. There's not a shaggin hope of that this decade.

[legendz]

If there's a third tier up and running before 2026 - and I won't be holding my breath - it'll just be a glorified reserve league padded out by a university or two and a couple of those league representative sides like CK and Mayo.

When Scanlon went on OTB he spoke about connecting it downward as well as upwards - i.e. to creta a pyramid. There's not a shaggin hope of that this decade.

It will mainly be a reserve or U23 league. Carlow Kilkenny, Kildare, Mayo and Monaghan are the only likely clubs to join from the youth leagues. Bernard O'Byrne in Meath is the only other non LoI area suggesting possible future interest.

[EatYerGreens]

It will mainly be a reserve or U23 league. Carlow Kilkenny, Kildare, Mayo and Monaghan are the only likely clubs to join from the youth leagues. Bernard O'Byrne in Meath is the only other non LoI area suggesting possible future interest.

Ballymun United also expressed interest in it about 18mths ago.

[Martinho II]

https://www.extratime.com/fixtures/2008-a-championship-group-1/finn-harps-a-v-derry-city-reserves/10967/4/report/
A match report from the A Championship in 2008.

Never knew that legendz. After that though McLean did play definitely for Derry City in the premier division.

[nigel-harps1954]

It will mainly be a reserve or U23 league. Carlow Kilkenny, Kildare, Mayo and Monaghan are the only likely clubs to join from the youth leagues. Bernard O'Byrne in Meath is the only other non LoI area suggesting possible future interest.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. There'll be a couple of intermediate sides who'll look to step in too.

[legendz]

There'll be a couple of intermediate sides who'll look to step in too. Will those intermediate clubs be joining the youth leagues as well? It should be a prerequisite.

[JC_GUFC]

At the moment the issue that it really isn’t financially viable for any club to join LoI.
If prize money were to be increased and a club could join the league and not immediately lose 100k in their first season then it would become more attractive.

Aside from those potentials mentioned where else could actually sustain a LoI team? Definitely Tipp has potential and Mullingar have been mentioned previously but aside from that it’s likely you’d just be getting extra clubs from towns/cities who already have a representative.
Even more Dublin clubs? Mervue/Salthill again? Limerick FC rivalling Treaty? A Northside Cork club?
None of these are really ideal… The obvious expansion is the All-Ireland League.

[outspoken]

At the moment the issue that it really isn’t financially viable for any club to join LoI.
If prize money were to be increased and a club could join the league and not immediately lose 100k in their first season then it would become more attractive.

Aside from those potentials mentioned where else could actually sustain a LoI team? Definitely Tipp has potential and Mullingar have been mentioned previously but aside from that it’s likely you’d just be getting extra clubs from towns/cities who already have a representative.
Even more Dublin clubs? Mervue/Salthill again? Limerick FC rivalling Treaty? A Northside Cork club?
None of these are really ideal… The obvious expansion is the All-Ireland League.

Mullingar will never join the LOI. Those days are long gone