Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[EatYerGreens]

Monaghan United aren't defunct. They're playing in the Ulster Senior League now.

They're almost certainly targeting the third tier, and I'd wager the likes of Letterkenny Rovers and Cockhill Celtic may just look to step in there too.

Haven't Fanad United dropped down a level - which would rule them out of something like this ?

Cockhill Celtic could really do with a new name if they intend to play in a nationwide league structure.

[legendz]

I also love speculating about new teams in the league, and what the Third Tier would be comprised of. Here is a list of former LOI related teams. My guess (if the Third Tier does happen) it will be comprised of most likely these teams/areas.[U][B]

Given that Kerry are at U19 level, Kerry do appear to be next in line. As mentioned in another thread, there is potentially an opportunity for Kerry to take the vacant spot in the First Division.
Cavan/Monaghan FC, Klub Kildare FC and Carlow Kilkenny FC at U17 level would probably be next in line for an Intermediary League, in a few years.
Regards third level institutions, Kerry in partnership with Munster Technological University - Tralee and Kildare having a partnership with Maynooth University might be the best approach for both.

[joey B]

Haven't Fanad United dropped down a level - which would rule them out of something like this ?

Cockhill Celtic could really do with a new name if they intend to play in a nationwide league structure.

Yeah Fanad and Swilly Rovers have dropped out in recent seasons and they’d have been 2 of the mainstays of the league.

Bonagee seem to be the main challenger to Cockhill who’ve won it 10 times in a row!

I do find it funny that Letterkeny Rovers would be talked of making a step up when they haven’t even won the USL in over a decade,always seemed to be happy enough playing at that level but maybe I’m wrong….

[Martinho II]

I am wondering would timing be right to have a third midlands team ie the likes of Mullingar Town who did try to join the first division wot 21 years ago?

[legendz]

I am wondering would timing be right to have a third midlands team ie the likes of Mullingar Town who did try to join the first division wot 21 years ago?

Have they shown an interest in joining the youth leagues?

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/mullingar-town-import-entire-squad-in-bid-to-gain-league-status-26078551.html

[EatYerGreens]

I am wondering would timing be right to have a third midlands team ie the likes of Mullingar Town who did try to join the first division wot 21 years ago?

Mullingar could probably make a decent go at an LOI team (or at least, no worse a go than most others). However - there would need to be a club there keen to make the leap. And since the crash killed off the Celtic Tiger-era bunfight within the town over who would get to play LOI (Athletic vs Town) it all seems to have gone a bit quiet there re league ambitions.

If you accept that football is primarily an urban sport, and focus on the fact that Ireland is seeking rapid growth in its main urban areas/regional centres, then that means the places that should have the future populations to comfortably sustain viable, professional LOI clubs are :

1) The 5 cities (Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford).
- They've been given a target of 50-55% population growth by 2040 (except Dublin).
2) The 3 Regional Growth Centres (Athlone, Letterkenny, Sligo).
- Have been given a target of 40% population growth by 2040.

There was previously talk in the middle of the last decade about having a much bigger 'ATM' (Athlone, Tullamore, Mullingar) Midlands growth centre, but that has been abandoned in favour of a more concentrated focus upon Athlone instead.

Therefore - of the 8 towns and cities that the State has identified for future population growth to be concentrated within, 7 already have at least one LOI team. The outlier in there is Letterkenny (population 20,000). It obviously has a club located just 23kms away in Ballybofey (combined population with Stranorlar of almost 5,000). But Ballybofey-Stranorlar is only the 3rd biggest population centre in Donegal (Buncrana near Derry is the second with approaching 7,000 people, and likely to remain in 2nd place for the foreseeable future). I've long been of the view that Letterkenny is a better long-term prospect for a viable LOI club than Ballybofey is - purely on the basis of its current and future size. The cost of running an LOI club will continually rise IMO, as more clubs become professional, wages etc increase. Harps have done an amazing job to be viable at Premier Division level in such a small town, but there are only so many rabbits you can keep pulling out of the same hat. I appreciate that Nigel and others won't agree, but for me the most viable long-term location for a professional, competitive football club in Donegal is in its largest popualtion centre = Letterkenny. Ballybofey may only be 23kms away from Letterkenny - but then so is Derry. So those looking for an LOI club to support in Donegal's largest town and its environs could find themselves just as easily tempted over the border to a club that is likely to be significantly more successful than they are to Finn Harps. Especially as Donegal's second largest town (Buncrana) is the same distance from Derry as Letterkenny is, and realistically is already Derry City territory. Plus the governments north and south of the border are creating a joint 'North West City Region' identity between Letterkenny, Derry and the space in-between - which will diminish any inherent notion of rejecting Derry in favour of a fellow Donegal club, and will draw Letterkenny closer to Derry's orbit over time.

[nigel-harps1954]

What would be left of the USL then?

USL is long dead at this stage. There's only four senior teams in it, and Harps/Derry reserves propping it up to six teams.

Monaghan United are using it as a stepping stone back to senior football currently.


Haven't Fanad United dropped down a level - which would rule them out of something like this ?

Cockhill Celtic could really do with a new name if they intend to play in a nationwide league structure.

Fanad are a shadow of the club they once were. They're in the Donegal League, just promoted back to the Premier Division there after winning the second tier, but the standard in junior football in Donegal is pretty poor at the minute. I don't see them ever having ambitions to get back to the level they were at when they competed in the A Championship.

As for Cockhill Celtic, it's the name of the area they're from. They're just outside of Buncrana, have a decent enough setup, and I'd doubt if they'd change anything. Unless they managed to scramble together some sort of Inishowen side playing out of Maginn Park, I wouldn't see an alternative, and they're a fairly ambitious side.


Yeah Fanad and Swilly Rovers have dropped out in recent seasons and they’d have been 2 of the mainstays of the league.

Bonagee seem to be the main challenger to Cockhill who’ve won it 10 times in a row!

I do find it funny that Letterkeny Rovers would be talked of making a step up when they haven’t even won the USL in over a decade,always seemed to be happy enough playing at that level but maybe I’m wrong….

Cockhill have done 9 in a row now, I think. Going for ten next year, and Bonagee indeed their closest challengers.

Letterkenny, simply put, have more going for them. They're putting together a handy ground. They're in the middle of Letterkenny town. They have a chance to grow a side there in a town of 20,000 people. It's no secret they've harboured ambitions of stepping up to LOI in the past. They played in the Under-21 league back 10/15 years ago and I'd wager they'd step into the league in a heartbeat if a North/South third tier opened up.



Therefore - of the 8 towns and cities that the State has identified for future population growth to be concentrated within, 7 already have at least one LOI team. The outlier in there is Letterkenny (population 20,000). It obviously has a club located just 23kms away in Ballybofey (combined population with Stranorlar of almost 5,000). But Ballybofey-Stranorlar is only the 3rd biggest population centre in Donegal (Buncrana near Derry is the second with approaching 7,000 people, and likely to remain in 2nd place for the foreseeable future). I've long been of the view that Letterkenny is a better long-term prospect for a viable LOI club than Ballybofey is - purely on the basis of its current and future size. The cost of running an LOI club will continually rise IMO, as more clubs become professional, wages etc increase. Harps have done an amazing job to be viable at Premier Division level in such a small town, but there are only so many rabbits you can keep pulling out of the same hat. I appreciate that Nigel and others won't agree, but for me the most viable long-term location for a professional, competitive football club in Donegal is in its largest popualtion centre = Letterkenny. Ballybofey may only be 23kms away from Letterkenny - but then so is Derry. So those looking for an LOI club to support in Donegal's largest town and its environs could find themselves just as easily tempted over the border to a club that is likely to be significantly more successful than they are to Finn Harps. Especially as Donegal's second largest town (Buncrana) is the same distance from Derry as Letterkenny is, and realistically is already Derry City territory. Plus the governments north and south of the border are creating a joint 'North West City Region' identity between Letterkenny, Derry and the space in-between - which will diminish any inherent notion of rejecting Derry in favour of a fellow Donegal club, and will draw Letterkenny closer to Derry's orbit over time.

A lot of this simply suggests Finn Harps to be a side representative of Ballybofey/Stranorlar, when the truth couldn't be further away really. You'd actually find the majority of Harps support comes from outside the twin towns, and it's more a representative side of the county, and tipping into parts of Tyrone.

A fair few parts of Donegal would split support between Derry and Harps, but again, probably wrong in the assumption with Buncrana. It's a far stronger Harps supporting town than it is Derry. I'm sure the like of Mr.A will back me up on that one too.

[EatYerGreens]

A lot of this simply suggests Finn Harps to be a side representative of Ballybofey/Stranorlar, when the truth couldn't be further away really. You'd actually find the majority of Harps support comes from outside the twin towns, and it's more a representative side of the county, and tipping into parts of Tyrone.

A fair few parts of Donegal would split support between Derry and Harps, but again, probably wrong in the assumption with Buncrana. It's a far stronger Harps supporting town than it is Derry. I'm sure the like of Mr.A will back me up on that one too.

You're essentially making my point for me here.

Harps obviously draw support from a broader area, as there is no way they get 1-2,000 people purely from a twin-town of only 5,000. But there would be little to stop those people transferring allegiances to another more local team in the future (e.g. Letterkenny Rovers, Strabane Athletic), satisfying their interest in senior football through a stronger and more local identification. And that is the problem for a club in a small town like Harps. A lot of the support is essentially borrowed from elsewhere, including bigger places with no team of their own. A team in Letterkenny would have a much bigger pool to create localised support within, and also compete with Harps for broader Donegal support. And they'd have the population, local businesses etc to presumably be more successful over time. You can easily envisage a situation whereby a Letterkenny team usurp Harps in the LOI. Especially if the new university there starts offering scholarships etc.

As the old saying goes, demographics is destiny.

[sbgawa]

You're essentially making my point for me here.

Harps obviously draw support from a broader area, as there is no way they get 1-2,000 people purely from a twin-town of only 5,000. But there would be little to stop those people transferring allegiances to another more local team in the future (e.g. Letterkenny Rovers, Strabane Athletic), satisfying their interest in senior football through a stronger and more local identification. And that is the problem for a club in a small town like Harps. A lot of the support is essentially borrowed from elsewhere, including bigger places with no team of their own. A team in Letterkenny would have a much bigger pool to create localised support within, and also compete with Harps for broader Donegal support. And they'd have the population, local businesses etc to presumably be more successful over time. You can easily envisage a situation whereby a Letterkenny team usurp Harps in the LOI. Especially if the new university there starts offering scholarships etc.

As the old saying goes, demographics is destiny.

People transferring their allegiances to a new club that opens up is a bit of a stretch tbh. It never occurred to me when my local club cabo joined the loi to change my support for shamrock rovers ��

[legendz]

People transferring their allegiances to a new club that opens up is a bit of a stretch tbh. It never occurred to me when my local club cabo joined the loi to change my support for shamrock rovers ��
It depends on the situation. I go to the Markets Field. If Kerry FC join the First Division, I'll be going to Mounthawk Park.

[sadloserkid]

Similarly I live in Cork now and while I toddle along to Turners Cross when it's convenient CCFC are not now and never will be my team. 'New' fans in Letterkenny might well follow the hypothetical new club but a good chunk of people with an interest will already be committed Harps fans and there's a good chance plenty of their progeny will effective be grandfathered into trips to Finn Park too when the time comes.

It might hinder Harps potential for expansion a bit but I'm not sure they'd regress significantly.

I don't know that Legendz example is really comparable either, he seems to managed to avoid picking up even a shred of affinity for the succession of Limerick entities in the LOI and the distance is a bit more of a factor than the Donegal example too, no?

[EatYerGreens]

It depends on the situation. I go to the Markets Field. If Kerry FC join the First Division, I'll be going to Mounthawk Park.

Exactly. Dublin is Dublin, and local allegiances there usually aren't as well-defined or rigid as they are elsewhere.

If someone in Letterkenny is into watching senior football, Harps or Derry are their only options currently . It's perfectly feasible to see a situation where if a Letterkenny team joined the league that those from the town who currently go elsewhere would have at least some interest in watching a team on their doorstep. Some obviously wouldn't and would continue with Harps, but many would either switch allegiances or try to watch a bit of both teams for at least a bit. And over time instead of young people there looking beyond the town for football, they'd instead just go local (new people from Letterkenny attracted to the league are much more likely to have an affinity with a local team). So you can see how over time it would result in change in where support for Harps (or Derry) comes from. And as a small town with a lot of borrowed support, shrinking the Harps catchment area in that way would hve a bigger impact than it would on a much larger town which can generate and sustain more support locally.

You just can't compare inner-city Dublin neighbourhoods to what happens re different regional towns. And Harps are hardly on a par with Rovers either in terms of success, scale etc.

[EatYerGreens]

Similarly I live in Cork now and while I toddle along to Turners Cross when it's convenient CCFC are not now and never will be my team. 'New' fans in Letterkenny might well follow the hypothetical new club but a good chunk of people with an interest will already be committed Harps fans and there's a good chance plenty of their progeny will effective be grandfathered into trips to Finn Park too when the time comes.

It might hinder Harps potential for expansion a bit but I'm not sure they'd regress significantly.

I don't know that Legendz example is really comparable either, he seems to managed to avoid picking up even a shred of affinity for the succession of Limerick entities in the LOI and the distance is a bit more of a factor than the Donegal example too, no?

So you're a teenager in Letterkenny. Your Dad has gone to Harps games for years, and you sometimes go too. But there is now a club in your own town. A lot of your friends and school pals etc are going along to the Letterkenny games, and they've never gone to Harps. And then Letterkenny are doing better than Harps. So realistically what are you going to do ?

Not to mention that there are 20,000 people in Letterkenny, so the percentage who regularly watch Harps from there would be an insignificant fraction of that (as evidenced by the crowds Harps get). Once a Letterkenny club comes in, Harps' catchment area will inevitably contract. Not just in Letterkenny, but in the areas around Letterkenny too. The pond they can realistically fish in for support, sponsors etc will shrink. Perhaps not instantly, but undeniably with time. And particularly if the Letterkenny side are more successful (which a large population would suggest they're likely to be in an increasingly professional and expensive sport).

Likewise if Strabane Athletic enter the upper tiers of the Irish league (which they intend to do), then a chunk of the Tyrone support for Harps will have an alternative option and decisions to make too. With the added fact that you're dealing there with different counties etc as well, which gives an added bonus to look locally. And again - Strabane has about 13,000 people plus more in its hinterland (including parts of Donegal like Lifford). So you can see how the current catchment area that Harps taps into starts to get nibbled away on a number of fronts. Because a large portion of their support is not local so is only really borrowed from elsewhere. And that is their fundamental challenge operating out of a small town with much larger towns nearby in which it is likely to see competitor clubs appearing in time.

[nigel-harps1954]

I think you're greatly overthinking that EYG.

[Kiki Balboa]

Population doesn't equal support numbers, intensity or limit of success.

Galway Population= 79,934, LOI Titles: 0
Drogheda Population= 40,956 LOI Titles: 1

Dundalk Population= 39,004 LOI Titles: 14

[joey B]

https://www.balls.ie/football/what-happens-clubs-who-join-league-of-ireland-kerry-fc-512315

Good little round up of the fortunes of new clubs that have entered the league…

[sadloserkid]

How many Letterkenny teenagers with Harps supporting Dads are "sometimes" going along to Harps games anyway? I'd guess that most of that fairly small number are Harps fans in their own right now and aren't likely to utterly abandon their own club wholly for convenience. To dismiss that as borrowed support seems to me to be understating the tie between most people and their football club.

In the long run the presence of another club in close proximity wouldn't help Harps I'll grant you but that's true of any club IMO.

[brendy_éire]

How many Letterkenny teenagers with Harps supporting Dads are "sometimes" going along to Harps games anyway? I'd guess that most of that fairly small number are Harps fans in their own right now and aren't likely to utterly abandon their own club wholly for convenience..

To turn that around, how many Letterkenny teenagers without Harps supporting dads go along to Harps games? There is no public transport from Ballybofey to Letterkenny at that time in the evening. Maybe when they're older, they might get a car and start attending Harps, or maybe they'd attend the LoI ground within walking distance of their house?

When I was a teenager, we moved to near Buncrana for a few years. The only reason I kept going to the Brandywell was because my neighbour drove up and down to every game. I would have struggled to get otherwise. Would I ever have started going if I was from Buncrana and had no transport to games? Fairly unlikely. Incidentally, the neighbour is from Galway and would gone to Terryland before moving to Donegal. Started going to the Brandywell, as it's his closest LoI ground, and been an ST holder for decades now. He'll still claim to be a Galway fan, in a way though.

A Harps fan living in Lettekenny won't on day one "utterly abandon" Harps, but people will often go for the easier option, and may be tempted to gradually to go to one more often than the other, especially if their son is nagging them to go because all their friends are too.
Convenience really matters.

[sadloserkid]

To turn that around, how many Letterkenny teenagers without Harps supporting dads go along to Harps games? There is no public transport from Ballybofey to Letterkenny at that time in the evening. Maybe when they're older, they might get a car and start attending Harps, or maybe they'd attend the LoI ground within walking distance of their house?

I've agreed it could be more of a long term issue for Harps but the kids who aren't going to games anyway aren't part of their current cohort obviously.


When I was a teenager, we moved to near Buncrana for a few years. The only reason I kept going to the Brandywell was because my neighbour drove up and down to every game. I would have struggled to get otherwise. Would I ever have started going if I was from Buncrana and had no transport to games? Fairly unlikely. Incidentally, the neighbour is from Galway and would gone to Terryland before moving to Donegal. Started going to the Brandywell, as it's his closest LoI ground, and been an ST holder for decades now. He'll still claim to be a Galway fan, in a way though.

Galway to Derry is a very different kettle of fish though than Letterkenny to Ballybofey/Stranorlar in terms of accessability.


A Harps fan living in Lettekenny won't on day one "utterly abandon" Harps, but people will often go for the easier option, and may be tempted to gradually to go to one more often than the other, especially if their son is nagging them to go because all their friends are too.
Convenience really matters.

Sure. I don't disagree with that. Though it's just as likely that Letterkenny will follow Kildare County trajectory and the son's nagging to go and watch them will last a couple of seasons before the Dad can happily spin up the road to Finn Park again. Lads who played against Letterkenny for other clubs in the vicinity could be slow enough to rock up and support them too.

I agree Letterkenny would be a net loss for Finn Harps overall but I don't think it would be necessarily be an immediate or fatal bullet either. They're established, they have a core.

[EatYerGreens]

Population doesn't equal support numbers, intensity or limit of success.

Galway Population= 79,934, LOI Titles: 0
Drogheda Population= 40,956 LOI Titles: 1

Dundalk Population= 39,004 LOI Titles: 14

Who's talking about titles though, except yourself ? The conversation is about crowds, catchment areas and long-term financial viability.

[EatYerGreens]

I agree Letterkenny would be a net loss for Finn Harps overall but I don't think it would be necessarily be an immediate or fatal bullet either. They're established, they have a core.

No-one's saying it would be immediate. It would be a longer-term thing. A realignment of habits over time ; A change in where an entire town looks to (or has to look to) for senior football. The quickest shift could actually be in terms of minor sponsors, rather than fans.

[EatYerGreens]

I think you're greatly overthinking that EYG.

I fear you're in denial about the impact an LOI club in Letterkenny could have on the longer term fortunes of Finn Harps.

[sadloserkid]

No-one's saying it would be immediate. It would be a longer-term thing. A realignment of habits over time ; A change in where an entire town looks to (or has to look to) for senior football. The quickest shift could actually be in terms of minor sponsors, rather than fans.

I think we're broadly in agreement then though the scale and speed of the process and how significant that would be to Harps is still open to speculation. 🙂

[brendy_éire]

Sure. I don't disagree with that. Though it's just as likely that Letterkenny will follow Kildare County trajectory and the son's nagging to go and watch them will last a couple of seasons before the Dad can happily spin up the road to Finn Park again. Lads who played against Letterkenny for other clubs in the vicinity could be slow enough to rock up and support them too.

Absolutely. I'm not saying that a Letterkenny would survive (or that Harps wouldn't), just that it would make things more difficult for Harps.
Entering the league seems to be easy part, keeping a team going has proven very difficult.
Only one 'new' team that entered the league in the past 37 years has survived.
Any Letterkenny team would have serious competition from an already established Harps side, who will likely have a new ground in place shortly.
There isn't a viable LoI ground currently in Letterkenny, and you'd have a hard time procuring any public funds to pay for it.

I just don't know if there is there is enough interest for two LoI clubs in the area, but this is me guessing. Is it worth having a new LoI team in Letterkenny if it means losing already established one? Would that even come into any licensing application?

FWIW, we're probably going about this the wrong way. If we'd a proper pyramid structure to the game, this wouldn't be a debate.

[Martinho II]

This is a brilliant debate lads to kill the boredom of bank holiday mondays filling the voids. I am not an expert on county size but Co Cork is a huge county and easily sustains two loi sides. Surely Co Donegal can do the same also? I know with Co Cork you have Limerick and Waterford . With Co Donegal you have Sligo Rovers and Derry City nearby. Co Donegal is a massive county I would be confident in that if Letterkenny decide to join the LOI it wont effect Harps support too much. Maybe Im wrong!

[EatYerGreens]

This is a brilliant debate lads to kill the boredom of bank holiday mondays filling the voids. I am not an expert on county size but Co Cork is a huge county and easily sustains two loi sides. Surely Co Donegal can do the same also? I know with Co Cork you have Limerick and Waterford . With Co Donegal you have Sligo Rovers and Derry City nearby. Co Donegal is a massive county I would be confident in that if Letterkenny decide to join the LOI it wont effect Harps support too much. Maybe Im wrong!

It's the population of a county/area that matters really, rather than the geographical size. And with football being a primarily urban sport, it's density/the presence of relatively large settlements in particular that matters.

Cork county has well over half a million people in it. Cork City is over 200,000 people (double that in the metropolitan area), so is well able to sustain an LOI club in terms of population. Cobh is part of Cork's metropolitan area, but has been a 'soccer' town since pretty much the sport reached Ireland. It's also got 13,000 people in the town, which is bigger than Longford Town and more than double Ballybofey-Stranorlar. The populations of Cork City and County are also growing quite a bit too.

Conversely - The problem with Donegal is that it's geographically big but has a small population, and only one real urban area. The whole county has about 160,000 people. Letterkenny is its only settlement of scale, at 20,000 people. Second is Buncrana at about 7,000, followed by Ballybofey/Stranorlar at about 5,000. The bit of Donegal that is linked physically and in parts economically/traditionally to Derry (the Inishowen peninsula, including Buncrana) has more than 30,000 people. The rest of the county is fairly thinly populated really. In the last census (2016), Donegal was one of only 3 counties that actually had a declining population - though this year's census is likely to see it return to growth again.

[Kiki Balboa]

It's the population of a county/area that matters really, rather than the geographical size. And with football being a primarily urban sport, it's density/the presence of relatively large settlements in particular that matters.

Population really is only a part of whether a proffessional football team would be stable or not. It is really silly to look at that one factor and think , yeah this town deserves an LOI team based on the catchment area. There are multitudes more reasons why an LOI team can be sustained in one urban area and not in another.

Kilkenny City, Fingal, and Newbridge Town are all bigger population centers than the areas you are mentioning, yet could not sustain a strong enough following to keep LOI football. To be honest, you are looking at it pretty wrong. Just because there is people around doesnt mean they have 1) an interest in the sport or 2) have a connection/ willingness to support aN LOI club.

It seems kind of like a rugby person trying to fix football here or a colonial attitude of looking at a map and drawing borders. One factor does not make an area suitible for a national sports team. If Letterkenny Rovers (or any club) do not have passionate members, willing to work hard across multiple generations to develop cultural capital inside the area, then no matter what the population is the cathchment area, it wont survive. Not knowing the dynamics of the area, but the people of Letterkenny might see Finn Harps as a Donegal Team, not a Ballybofey team, and would not switch allegience. (It might be the other way too, where Letterkenny people would never support a team from Ballybofey- be delighted for an LOI team... or they could just be ambivalent to the whole thing). You can't just say which way it is based on pop stats though.

I remember when in the Mid-2000s when Drogheda was winning and Dundalk was in the First, I had mulitple people tell me that the clubs should merge into one Louth team based in Drogheda to increase the catchment area. I would bet my life on it if it happened, not one Dundalk fan would travel 20 min down the road. Same arguments with stats and data, yet compleltly missing the dynamics of the area.

But simply looking at population numbers does a total disservice to the hard work clubs (and Finn Harps) have done to get a following. You can't just magic up that hardwork for another area.

I love pondering about future LOI clubs as much as anyone, but there is no subsitution for the cultural capital created by the already sustainable LOI clubs.

[EatYerGreens]

Population really is only a part of whether a proffessional football team would be stable or not. It is really silly to look at that one factor and think , yeah this town deserves an LOI team based on the catchment area. There are multitudes more reasons why an LOI team can be sustained in one urban area and not in another.

Kilkenny City, Fingal, and Newbridge Town are all bigger population centers than the areas you are mentioning, yet could not sustain a strong enough following to keep LOI football. To be honest, you are looking at it pretty wrong. Just because there is people around doesnt mean they have 1) an interest in the sport or 2) have a connection/ willingness to support aN LOI club.

It seems kind of like a rugby person trying to fix football here or a colonial attitude of looking at a map and drawing borders. One factor does not make an area suitible for a national sports team. If Letterkenny Rovers (or any club) do not have passionate members, willing to work hard across multiple generations to develop cultural capital inside the area, then no matter what the population is the cathchment area, it wont survive. Not knowing the dynamics of the area, but the people of Letterkenny might see Finn Harps as a Donegal Team, not a Ballybofey team, and would not switch allegience. (It might be the other way too, where Letterkenny people would never support a team from Ballybofey- be delighted for an LOI team... or they could just be ambivalent to the whole thing). You can't just say which way it is based on pop stats though.

I remember when in the Mid-2000s when Drogheda was winning and Dundalk was in the First, I had mulitple people tell me that the clubs should merge into one Louth team based in Drogheda to increase the catchment area. I would bet my life on it if it happened, not one Dundalk fan would travel 20 min down the road. Same arguments with stats and data, yet compleltly missing the dynamics of the area.

But simply looking at population numbers does a total disservice to the hard work clubs (and Finn Harps) have done to get a following. You can't just magic up that hardwork for another area.

I love pondering about future LOI clubs as much as anyone, but there is no subsitution for the cultural capital created by the already sustainable LOI clubs.

To clarify - professional sport is all about money. And that needs either popular support and/or financial 'investment' (though injections of the latter without the former won't build longer-term stability).

Will having a large population to appeal to ensure viability in professional sport all on its own ? Of course not. No-one has claimed it would. But NOT having a sizeable population to tap into makes long-term viability unlikely, without injections of money from somewhere else. Because professional sport is all about money. And if you don't have a big enough actual or potential support base to generate that money from within, then it has to come from somewhere else. And if it isn't self-generated through local appeal, then the club is unlikely to be sustainable in the longer term.

It's no accident that the most successful football teams in each country are usually from its larger population centres. It's not places like Cheltenham or York that bag the success in England. It's London, Manchester, Liverpool. In a league with 92 senior teams and well over 100 professional ones, that leaves room for lots of smaller clubs further down the pyramid. But the LOI doesn't have anywhere near that depth, and never will have either.

To reiterate again what I'm saying so we're 100% clear : Will having a relatively large population ensure the long-term viability of an LOI club on its own. No. Absolutely not. But is NOT having a relatively large population likely to undermine the longer-term sustainability of any LOI club ? Yes. Particularly as the game here becomes increasingly professional and money-dominated - which is the path it is slowly but surely on (especially with the money from Europe).

[Kiki Balboa]

Okay, everyone can agree. If Letterkenny Rovers put in the same work as Finn Harps did for the last 50 years, they would probably have a higher potential and ceiling than Finn Harps.

But they didn't. So for me, all of it is a moot-point.

Nothing stopping Letterkenny Celtic from trying to become an LOI team.

[nigel-harps1954]

That all went a bit too in-depth for a totally hypothetical situation

[legendz]

Cavan/Monaghan FC, Mayo FC, Klub Kildare FC, Carlow Kilkenny FC and Kerry FC should be the template for all League of Ireland hopefuls to follow. Join the underage leagues, build from there and see where it takes you.

[lofty9]

That all went a bit too in-depth for a totally hypothetical situation

Letterkenny / Harps would have an Derry/ Stute vibe to it with Letterkenny the daddy of the relationship. :cool:

[Kiki Balboa]

Cavan/Monaghan FC, Mayo FC, Klub Kildare FC, Carlow Kilkenny FC and Kerry FC should be the template for all League of Ireland hopefuls to follow. Join the underage leagues, build from there and see where it takes you.

If I remember correctly, some of the big DDSL clubs were rejected from the LOI underage leagues (quite rightly). So the option is not available to all.


Also probably important to note, these are brand new entities, not established teams in the region who are trying to step up. It means that the volunteer/ community core might be missing from these clubs. Not that it might not matter, but Klub Kildare is not a Newbridge Town or Maynooth trying to step up into LOI, but seems a kind of ETP type programme with the aim of developing players. Again, it seems fuzzy to me, but it might mean that these new entities do not have the people to pull on to run a senior club.


I don't know the dynamics of it, but as far as I can tell, these are as much top-down FAI driven clubs, to offer competitive football for players in unrepresented regions. It might be masking a lack of appetite for senior LOI football to be developed. It might also be that other clubs from the area are told that no, you cannot compete in the national league unless you took a regional name (which would also probably make sense). Keeping with the example, Newbridge Town might be told that you can run an LOI underage team, but it must represent Kildare, so the same people who would have been running a Newbridge Town team in LOI are now running the Klub Kildare.


It seems successful for Kerry FC, but they also have a prominent ex LOI player pushing it and some American backers. The other clubs might not have that. I think we all want every region in Ireland to be represented in LOI, but it is also important to know the huge resources, both economic and human effort, that is required to run a sustainable senior team at the LOI level. Hopefully, a Third Tier will be the best stepping stone for these clubs to becoming sustaniable clubs.

[Shinkicker]

You're essentially making my point for me here.

Harps obviously draw support from a broader area, as there is no way they get 1-2,000 people purely from a twin-town of only 5,000. But there would be little to stop those people transferring allegiances to another more local team in the future (e.g. Letterkenny Rovers, Strabane Athletic), satisfying their interest in senior football through a stronger and more local identification. And that is the problem for a club in a small town like Harps. A lot of the support is essentially borrowed from elsewhere, including bigger places with no team of their own. A team in Letterkenny would have a much bigger pool to create localised support within, and also compete with Harps for broader Donegal support. And they'd have the population, local businesses etc to presumably be more successful over time. You can easily envisage a situation whereby a Letterkenny team usurp Harps in the LOI. Especially if the new university there starts offering scholarships etc.

As the old saying goes, demographics is destiny.Strabane get 2 men and a dog if they are lucky. They play I'm a league of seven teams and came second. They are surrounded by Derry, Coleraine,Institute, Dergview, Limavady utd and portstewart. They wouldn't last pi**ing time yet pull any support from any of the surrounding clubs including Harps. Remember Harps have had local competition in the past. They have watched them come, fail and dissappear back into obscurity while Harps trundle on.

[GUFCghost]

Would Inishowen be a viable catchment area for a LOI club? Maginn Park seems good enough, and there is a sort of cultural divide between the peninsula and the rest of the county.
KiKi Balboa makes a good point about having the volunteer force to support a new club. I think if a group of people already involved in junior football come together and decide they want a senior club for their town/region/county it can be done. The ambition doesn't need to fester away in one club for years for it to be proven

[legendz]

If I remember correctly, some of the big DDSL clubs were rejected from the LOI underage leagues (quite rightly). So the option is not available to all.


Also probably important to note, these are brand new entities, not established teams in the region who are trying to step up. It means that the volunteer/ community core might be missing from these clubs. Not that it might not matter, but Klub Kildare is not a Newbridge Town or Maynooth trying to step up into LOI, but seems a kind of ETP type programme with the aim of developing players. Again, it seems fuzzy to me, but it might mean that these new entities do not have the people to pull on to run a senior club.


I don't know the dynamics of it, but as far as I can tell, these are as much top-down FAI driven clubs, to offer competitive football for players in unrepresented regions. It might be masking a lack of appetite for senior LOI football to be developed. It might also be that other clubs from the area are told that no, you cannot compete in the national league unless you took a regional name (which would also probably make sense). Keeping with the example, Newbridge Town might be told that you can run an LOI underage team, but it must represent Kildare, so the same people who would have been running a Newbridge Town team in LOI are now running the Klub Kildare.


It seems successful for Kerry FC, but they also have a prominent ex LOI player pushing it and some American backers. The other clubs might not have that. I think we all want every region in Ireland to be represented in LOI, but it is also important to know the huge resources, both economic and human effort, that is required to run a sustainable senior team at the LOI level. Hopefully, a Third Tier will be the best stepping stone for these clubs to becoming sustaniable clubs.Are there enough clubs in Dublin already?
Regards Kerry and the other non LoI entities, there is a strong history of representative football in Ireland. The Kennedy Cup for example. For areas without League of Ireland representation, a representative team in the youth leagues has been a fair solution. They have been facilitated by the FAI, as opposed to driven by the FAI.
You are right that these entities do not have the resources to sustain a senior team at LoI level.
An Intermediary League could allow U23 sides from the LoI clubs, with leeway for 3 overage players.
If non LoI entities want to progress to LoI level, an intermediary league can at least afford them that opportunity to put the structures in place.
There doesn't appear to be any club in these areas willing to take the leap. If a club can be formed with the support of the majority of the clubs and the district league, it should be less divisive in the long run. Cobh don't have the support of all of Cobh?

[joey B]

Would Inishowen be a viable catchment area for a LOI club? Maginn Park seems good enough, and there is a sort of cultural divide between the peninsula and the rest of the county.
KiKi Balboa makes a good point about having the volunteer force to support a new club. I think if a group of people already involved in junior football come together and decide they want a senior club for their town/region/county it can be done. The ambition doesn't need to fester away in one club for years for it to be proven

I personally dont think it would be viable but who knows I suppose,it has a strong enough local league all on its own seperate from the rest of the county,but I'm not sure that would translate into whats required to sustain a club in the LOI.....

[Kiki Balboa]

Are there enough clubs in Dublin already?
Regards Kerry and the other non LoI entities, there is a strong history of representative football in Ireland. The Kennedy Cup for example. For areas without League of Ireland representation, a representative team in the youth leagues has been a fair solution. They have been facilitated by the FAI, as opposed to driven by the FAI.
You are right that these entities do not have the resources to sustain a senior team at LoI level.
An Intermediary League could allow U23 sides from the LoI clubs, with leeway for 3 overage players.
If non LoI entities want to progress to LoI level, an intermediary league can at least afford them that opportunity to put the structures in place.
There doesn't appear to be any club in these areas willing to take the leap. If a club can be formed with the support of the majority of the clubs and the district league, it should be less divisive in the long run. Cobh don't have the support of all of Cobh?

Yeah, definitely. Not saying it is not a good idea.

[legendz]

If a third tier is a possibility to be formed in years to come, how many of the current 19 LoI clubs are likely to join with a reserve/B/U23 team?

[brendy_éire]

I personally dont think it would be viable but who knows I suppose,it has a strong enough local league all on its own seperate from the rest of the county,but I'm not sure that would translate into whats required to sustain a club in the LOI.....

I'd tend to agree with that.
Perhaps, if there was a regional set-up under a third tier, they could attempt to field a side. Having Maginn Park is a big plus.

[NeverFeltBetter]

If a third tier is a possibility to be formed in years to come, how many of the current 19 LoI clubs are likely to join with a reserve/B/U23 team?

Shamrock Rovers presumably would, Derry would have the finances for it as well you'd imagine. After that I'm not sure in a post-COVID landscape. A lot of clubs had A/reserve sides in the old A Championship in fairness, but that was a decade ago.

[EatYerGreens]

Strabane get 2 men and a dog if they are lucky. They play I'm a league of seven teams and came second. They are surrounded by Derry, Coleraine,Institute, Dergview, Limavady utd and portstewart. They wouldn't last pi**ing time yet pull any support from any of the surrounding clubs including Harps. Remember Harps have had local competition in the past. They have watched them come, fail and dissappear back into obscurity while Harps trundle on.

Strabane would be in the 3rd tier of the Irish League if they had a ground up to scratch, as they won their league a few years ago. The ground has since been improved by the council to the level that would see them promoted. Strabane Athletic are also planning their own stadium too, with facilities to embed them in the community.

Of all the teams you listed there, the only ones that would credibly have any impact upon players and support in and for a Strabane team would be Derry, Dergview and Harps. What local competition to Harps are you saying has come and failed ?

[EatYerGreens]

Would Inishowen be a viable catchment area for a LOI club? Maginn Park seems good enough, and there is a sort of cultural divide between the peninsula and the rest of the county.
KiKi Balboa makes a good point about having the volunteer force to support a new club. I think if a group of people already involved in junior football come together and decide they want a senior club for their town/region/county it can be done. The ambition doesn't need to fester away in one club for years for it to be proven

Inishowen looks to Derry economically and historically. All except the top of the penninsula really, where you have Fanad and Carndonagh. Places to the south like Buncrana, Burnfoot and Moville are very much connected to Derry. Parts of the city also spill over the border into Donegal Inishowen too (e.g. Muff, Killea). Derry City played in Maginn Park in Buncrana for a year when the Brandywell was being refurbished.

Cockill Celtic in Buncrana are in the FAI Cup early rounds regularly now.

[joey B]

Inishowen looks to Derry economically and historically. All except the top of the penninsula really, where you have Fanad and Carndonagh. Places to the south like Buncrana, Burnfoot and Moville are very much connected to Derry. Parts of the city also spill over the border into Donegal Inishowen too (e.g. Muff, Killea). Derry City played in Maginn Park in Buncrana for a year when the Brandywell was being refurbished.

Cockill Celtic in Buncrana are in the FAI Cup early rounds regularly now.

When did Inishowen steal Fanad:D??

[sbgawa]

When did Inishowen steal Fanad:D??

Them Donegal cute hoors would steal the eye out of your head if you weren't looking ;)

[sadloserkid]

A lot of clubs had A/reserve sides in the old A Championship in fairness, but that was a decade ago.

That was compulsary for top tier sides too, it was one of the reasons used to do away with it. I'm open to correction but I think Limerick and UCD were the only First Division sides to ever enter.

[pineapple stu]

Actually the only year we didn't reach the final was also the only year we didn't enter, which was our First Division year.

[nigel-harps1954]

That was compulsary for top tier sides too, it was one of the reasons used to do away with it. I'm open to correction but I think Limerick and UCD were the only First Division sides to ever enter.

Harps had a side in it every season, and have had a reserve side playing Ulster Senior League ever since too.

[Kiki Balboa]

If a third tier is a possibility to be formed in years to come, how many of the current 19 LoI clubs are likely to join with a reserve/B/U23 team?

I would imagine all Premier League teams will be interested in having a team. Would the finanances be so different from running an under-age LOI team?

A big problem with the 'A' Championship was the timing, right after the economic crash when a lot of money suddenly left from the country, plus the idea wasnt so fully formed at the time.

The league is more stable now. I think too the competition will also have a lot more legitimacy in it being an offical 'Tier' of the League, which suggests its not going to disappear after it started. Plus the overall repuatuion of the league has increased, and with access to underage- LOI leagues (and thus the best youth players), it should be more attractive for regional leagues.

You could even get creative with the format to keep costs down or how the teams are formed (like if Galway do not fully want to have a team in it, but a Mayo team do, they could work together to give Galway United player games under a Mayo shirt).

Maybe I am being optimistic about it, but I think it is a great addition to the league, and I think a lot of teams will be interested in joining. It should be a good stepping stone for new clubs (wherever they may come from) to becoming a senior team.

[Mr A]

Inishowen looks to Derry economically and historically. All except the top of the penninsula really, where you have Fanad and Carndonagh. Places to the south like Buncrana, Burnfoot and Moville are very much connected to Derry. Parts of the city also spill over the border into Donegal Inishowen too (e.g. Muff, Killea). Derry City played in Maginn Park in Buncrana for a year when the Brandywell was being refurbished.

Cockill Celtic in Buncrana are in the FAI Cup early rounds regularly now.

Interestingly Harps support in Buncrana actually grew notably while Derry played in the town.