Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[legendz]

So overstated pretty much every country in Europe operates one?

Our lack of a pyramid is what caused three Galway clubs in the First Division btw. A pyramid - promotion on merit - would have made it much harder
A pyramid is definitely needed. I see a dual pyramid as the approach required. A pyramid structure within elite licencing for first team clubs like a Mayo FC that would have academy structures in place. LoI second teams also welcome to join if they wish. Ideally progressive city clubs like Shelbourne, Shamrock Rovers, St. Pat's, Bohs, Derry, Galway, Waterford and Cork would join that tier if they see value in a second team between academy and senior level.
Outside of the elite pyramid then, there should be a separate pyramid from district leagues up to regional leagues.

[EalingGreen]

... what is the benefit of a saturation of clubs in an area competing against each other?
Buenos Aires, a city of just over 3m, has over a dozen f-t professional clubs, some of them giants. Uruguay's population is 3.4m, half of them in Montevideo, supports two professional league divisions of 30 teams, with another two divisions/37 clubs below which are p-t or amateur, with promotion and relegation between the four.

London has a population approx twice that of ROI. It has 7 x PL clubs alone, another 5 in the EFL and more in the fifth and sixth tiers (f-t and p-t), and is surrounded by a host of other clubs - Luton, Watford, Crawley, Stevenage, Bromley, Sutton etc within close distance. Lancashire is another hotbed of football, also with loads of clubs.

By contrast, the whole of East Anglia supports just two big(ish) clubs, while Cornwall and the West of England is also very sparsely represented (rugby country), and North Wales (decidedly not rugby country) really only has Wrexham worth the name.

Meaning mere "saturation" (i.e. concentration of clubs in a given area) can hardly be the problem, nor "magicing up" new clubs in areas which have never previously shown much enthusiasm for the game the solution.

[pineapple stu]

Outside of the elite pyramid then, there should be a separate pyramid from district leagues up to regional leagues.
It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected. The connection is literally the point of the pyramid.

Just allowing clubs like Mayo to enter because they asked is what caused the Salthill/Mervue/Galway issue a few years back (and relegation is what would have fixed it)

[Kiki Balboa]

It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected. The connection is literally the point of the pyramid.

Just allowing clubs like Mayo to enter because they asked is what caused the Salthill/Mervue/Galway issue a few years back (and relegation is what would have fixed it)

I said this before, but I think it is worth saying again, but there is logic in advancing a club like Mayo into LOI.

There is a reason why football is more developed in areas around LOI clubs, and picking a 'hub' to develop has merit to help football in a non football region.

If you went straight into a pyramid system, regions that had a headstart to be more developed would just dominate those that are further behind, potentially stunting the growth in an unrepresented region, and leaving a concentration in another area.

Mervue and Salthill are good example of that.

A pyramid system should eventually be the end goal, but it can definitely exacerbate the unequal nature of Irish football, and creating bridges (baiscally knowledge centers) beforehand is, for me at least, building positively for the long term health of a pyramid.

[Mr A]

With the proposed reduction (and possible complete elimination) of solidarity money to D1 clubs, entering senior football is going to be harder than ever. I am all for a proper pyramid but in the short term we're in danger of losing clubs from D1, so the idea of adding another tier seems incredibly fanciful.

The LOI has always had a huge issue with losing clubs, and between the wage spiral currently happening that is not being matched by income and the new imbalance of solidarity money- there are very serious questions on whether the LOI as we know it will be remotely viable.

[culloty82]

Interesting to read in Kerry's Eye this morning that both Longford and Kerry have to formally apply for re-election to the League this season, similar to the system that applied in the EFL before 1987, so presumably the intention is that once the third tier is established, the bottom two FD clubs and the top senior club in each third tier section will face this procedure, with the two sides with the most votes returned for the following year?

[pineapple stu]

I said this before, but I think it is worth saying again, but there is logic in advancing a club like Mayo into LOI.

There is a reason why football is more developed in areas around LOI clubs, and picking a 'hub' to develop has merit to help football in a non football region.
But it didn't work with Kildare, Monaghan, Thurles, Kilkenny, Carlow, Tullamore, Cabinteely, Sporting Fingal, etc, etc - and arguably it hasn't worked with Kerry, given how bad they are and how that has to be a hamstring to them in terms of generating sustained interest in the club.

Why would it be any different with Mayo?

Mervue and Salthill are not good examples of the weakness of a pyramid because they arose when there was no proper pyramid. They're examples of what happens when clubs put their hands up and ask to be elected without having earned it on the pitch, and without the option of being relegated again because they're rubbish.

[Buller]

By contrast, the whole of East Anglia supports just two big(ish) clubs, while Cornwall and the West of England is also very sparsely represented (rugby country), and North Wales (decidedly not rugby country) really only has Wrexham worth the name.

Meaning mere "saturation" (i.e. concentration of clubs in a given area) can hardly be the problem, nor "magicing up" new clubs in areas which have never previously shown much enthusiasm for the game the solution.


I dont subscribe to this idea at all.

Dalkey/Killiney in Dublin usen't have any demand for or interest in gah. Cuala GAA setting up has gradually grown over 30 years and is now a big deal there.

You induce demand in an area by "magicing up" a well run club in an area that otherwise isn't a stronghold, especially if its a major sport.

[culloty82]

But it didn't work with Kildare, Monaghan, Thurles, Kilkenny, Carlow, Tullamore, Cabinteely, Sporting Fingal, etc, etc - and arguably it hasn't worked with Kerry, given how bad they are and how that has to be a hamstring to them in terms of generating sustained interest in the club.

Why would it be any different with Mayo?

Mervue and Salthill are not good examples of the weakness of a pyramid because they arose when there was no proper pyramid. They're examples of what happens when clubs put their hands up and ask to be elected without having earned it on the pitch, and without the option of being relegated again because they're rubbish.

Except both Mervue and Salthill were promoted from the A Championship due to their performances on the pitch, the former winning a play-off, and the latter qualifying for one before Kildare resigned.

[Buller]

Mervue and Salthill are not good examples of the weakness of a pyramid because they arose when there was no proper pyramid. They're examples of what happens when clubs put their hands up and ask to be elected without having earned it on the pitch, and without the option of being relegated again because they're rubbish.

Mervue and Salthill split the support in an already small town. An absolute disaster.

[pineapple stu]

Except both Mervue and Salthill were promoted from the A Championship due to their performances on the pitch, the former winning a play-off, and the latter qualifying for one before Kildare resigned.
But they were only in the A Championship because there wasn't a pyramid. They put their hands up and were accepted into a division where, of course, the vast majority were ineligible for promotion.

The A Championship, or the current proposal, isn't creating a pyramid. It's simply adding another layer on to the current failed system.

[Buckett]

Mervue and Salthill split the support in an already small town. An absolute disaster.
No they didn't

[EalingGreen]

Dalkey/Killiney in Dublin usen't have any demand for or interest in gah. Cuala GAA setting up has gradually grown over 30 years and is now a big deal there.
That actually proves my point not yours, I think.

The point being that you build a pyramid from the bottom up, using strong blocks on a solid foundation. In the case of football, the foundation is pre-existing interest in the game, with existing, ambitious clubs as the blocks. And even then it takes time.

Anyhow, from googling Cuala GAA, it seems they were formed half a century ago, from the merger of two existing clubs. And as you say yourself, it's taken 30 years of "gradual" growth* to get them where they are today.

How is that anything like Kerry FC, Mayo FC, two clubs which I believe never had an adult section? In their case, the equivalent to Cuala would actually be taking eg Tralee Dynamos or Castlebar Celtic, maybe merging them with another local club, then growing them gradually up through the different levels of (ahem) a pyramid, over many years.


* - I don't know anything at all about Cuala beyond googling, but I do know that the GAA are particularly good at developing chosen clubs using their own resources which are often much greater than those of Football. This is frequently helped too by accessing generous funding from the government. Whereas for Mayo/Kerry, or Castlebar/Tralee, the FAI has nothing like that to offer.



You induce demand in an area by "magicing up" a well run club in an area that otherwise isn't a stronghold, especially if its a major sport.Don't you think there might be a reason for somewhere not being a stronghold?

Which is not to say that you cannot eventually grow the game in such an area. However, this takes time, resources, planning and process etc, as we've seen eg in NI with Dungannon, Ballinamallard or Warrenpoint, areas which never had Senior football when eg Cuala GAA was formed.

[legendz]

It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected. The connection is literally the point of the pyramid.

Just allowing clubs like Mayo to enter because they asked is what caused the Salthill/Mervue/Galway issue a few years back (and relegation is what would have fixed it)

I'm suggesting a dual pyramid. Elite and regional. I'm not against a Mayo FC joining if they meet elite licencing criteria. Elite licencing should be central around progressive academies and a professional league.
District leagues to regional leagues should be the regional pyramid. Newmarket Celtic FC or any junior/intermediate club should have a higher level to play for. I don't think Newmarket Celtic FC can sustain professionalism within an elite pyramid but could target as progress through a regional pyramid.

[pineapple stu]

I'm suggesting a dual pyramid.
And as I say, "It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected."

[CorribsideSteve]

Let's reconvene this conversation for ten more years at this stage, lads. We should be grateful the League is progressing at the moment. Until we have a decade free of clubs on the brink of meltdown, with several clubs making continuous strides in eg the conference, there'll be little appetite for ironing out the many wrinkles in setting it up at present.

[SkStu]

And as PineappleStu says "if its connected to a pyramid, its not dis."

[legendz]

And as I say, "It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected."
Fair enough! ?

Let's reconvene this conversation for ten more years at this stage, lads. We should be grateful the League is progressing at the moment. Until we have a decade free of clubs on the brink of meltdown, with several clubs making continuous strides in eg the conference, there'll be little appetite for ironing out the many wrinkles in setting it up at present.
There are positives. There are gaps as well. Progressive clubs like Shamrock Rovers might want a level for a B team. The First Division say no to that. The likes of Mayo and Kildare joining the youth leagues should have a third tier level to mix with B teams at least.
The blueprint should be join the youth leagues and progress eventually to a Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II.
Linking up district leagues to some pathway is a completely different problem to solve, made more difficult if the calendar season being adopted by all leagues does not go through.

[Buckett]

If there was a pyramid; Premier, then First Division, Second Division North/South, what would it look like below this?

[pineapple stu]

LSL/MSL/USL seem ideal if they can be tidied up (allowing that the USL seems to have its own issues of course - and even the LSL/MSL are largely Dublin/Cork only I think, rather than province-wide).

Get rid of stuff like the county district leagues, or the separate leagues like the AUL. There's too many standalone leagues at local level.

[Buckett]

I was thinking more along the lines of getting rid of LSL/MSL, even though there would be a lot of resistance to this due to their history.

I'd keep the county leagues but like you say get rid of all the AUL's etc., like in Limerick for example, no need for two separate leagues.

These leagues around the country could then feed into Northwest / Northeast / Midlands North / Dublin North with each winner entering playoffs for promotion to the Second Division North.
And Southwest / Southeast / Midlands South / Dublin South with each winner entering playoffs for promotion to the Second Division South.

An ultimatum could be sent to all clubs. Get on board with the restructure or else you won't be eligible for membership of the FAI or eligible for funding. The FAI could use the conditions that were set out by the Department to justify their actions.

[Burnsie]

I was thinking more along the lines of getting rid of LSL/MSL, even though there would be a lot of resistance to this due to their history.

I'd keep the county leagues but like you say get rid of all the AUL's etc., like in Limerick for example, no need for two separate leagues.

These leagues around the country could then feed into Northwest / Northeast / Midlands North / Dublin North with each winner entering playoffs for promotion to the Second Division North.
And Southwest / Southeast / Midlands South / Dublin South with each winner entering playoffs for promotion to the Second Division South.

An ultimatum could be sent to all clubs. Get on board with the restructure or else you won't be eligible for membership of the FAI or eligible for funding. The FAI could use the conditions that were set out by the Department to justify their actions.

What funding? Most the affected sides have never seen a bean from the FAI, so that threat would be a hollow one.

I've been in these meetings There's zero affection towards the FAI , and precious little consideration given to what might benefit the sport as a whole in this country. If you turned around and said there was a €50,000 grant in it for every leading junior / intermediate club who signed up for calendar year football, maybe. But short of that I fear you're ****ing in the wind.

[nigel-harps1954]

LSL/MSL/USL seem ideal if they can be tidied up (allowing that the USL seems to have its own issues of course - and even the LSL/MSL are largely Dublin/Cork only I think, rather than province-wide).

Get rid of stuff like the county district leagues, or the separate leagues like the AUL. There's too many standalone leagues at local level.

There is no USL anymore.

[legendz]

MSL is a Cork league. If a pyramid is to be built, possibly Kerry, 2 Limerick leagues and Clare can be linked to a Munster West League.
Tipperary and Waterford leagues linked to a Munster East League.
With the LSL largely Dublin, possibly a Leinster North League and a Leinster South League is the next step there.
If a Connacht League and an Ulster League is possible, that's eight regional leagues being the the next level up from the various district leagues.

[Buckett]

The FAI have a say in who gets funding through the LSSIF as the Minister referenced in this article

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/large-scale-sports-funding-comes-with-use-it-or-lose-it-warning-as-dalymount-park-project-proves-to-be-a-big-winner/a1736774747.html


https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/government-agrees-to-fund-the-fai-at-a-cost-of-6m-a-year-in-a-deal-that-comes-with-16-conditions/a612523296.html

And one of the conditions that came with this funding is to do a review of grassroots league structures to deliver stable and geographically logical leagues for men, women and children.

[pineapple stu]

There is no USL anymore.
Well that would be one of the issues impacting it :)

[EatYerGreens]

There is no USL anymore.

Ulster said no?

[Buckett]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-41520278.html

This is a huge decision. I haven't been involved in football for a few years now so to people here affiliated with a club, will this vote pass?

[nigel-harps1954]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-41520278.html

This is a huge decision. I haven't been involved in football for a few years now so to people here affiliated with a club, will this vote pass?

Effectively conceding to the junior game by the looks of it.

They have no balls and should just put their foot down and tell them how it is. More lack of joined up thinking in football in this country.

[Buller]

Effectively conceding to the junior game by the looks of it.

They have no balls and should just put their foot down and tell them how it is. More lack of joined up thinking in football in this country.

Agreed, big fish in small pond mentality. What are the FAI conceding on though? The timeframe? Looks to be trying to push it through from the article.


That has translated into their phased tweak, starting with age levels between 5-12s initially, followed by 13-16s in 2027, with youth and adult completing the set from 2028.

[EatYerGreens]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-41520278.html

This is a huge decision. I haven't been involved in football for a few years now so to people here affiliated with a club, will this vote pass?

Yet apparenty we should just click our fingers and introduce a pyramid instantly, as it'd be that easy :D

[Burnsie]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/loi-licensing-deadline-pushed-back-as-pfai-chief-calls-for-minimum-number-of-academy-players-in-first-teams/a1601964761.html

"while it's also been revealed that the proposed new League of Ireland third division is also set to be pushed back past 2026"

Looking forward to several more years of posts fro lads listing off provincial towns which will magically produce a semi-professional soccer club

[EatYerGreens]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/loi-licensing-deadline-pushed-back-as-pfai-chief-calls-for-minimum-number-of-academy-players-in-first-teams/a1601964761.html

"while it's also been revealed that the proposed new League of Ireland third division is also set to be pushed back past 2026"

Looking forward to several more years of posts fro lads listing off provincial towns which will magically produce a semi-professional soccer club

Plus the obligatory "every county should have its own saccar club" nonesense.

[Mr A]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/loi-licensing-deadline-pushed-back-as-pfai-chief-calls-for-minimum-number-of-academy-players-in-first-teams/a1601964761.html

"while it's also been revealed that the proposed new League of Ireland third division is also set to be pushed back past 2026"

Looking forward to several more years of posts fro lads listing off provincial towns which will magically produce a semi-professional soccer club

PFAI comments overall are fine. But talk of clubs having to have a certain number of academy players when academy funding is about to be either severely cut or removed altogether seems.. a bit of a mad situation. Same goes for a third tier- should we be adding another tier when D1 clubs face an uncertain future?

[Buckett]

Three circuses is better than two!

[legendz]

Are there many Premier Division clubs likely to want to field a second team?

PFAI comments overall are fine. But talk of clubs having to have a certain number of academy players when academy funding is about to be either severely cut or removed altogether seems.. a bit of a mad situation. Same goes for a third tier- should we be adding another tier when D1 clubs face an uncertain future?
The so called Third Tier should be a matter of progressive Premier Division clubs who see value in a second team and emerging clubs with academies who have LoI ambitions.
If a Mayo, Kildare or anyone can qualify for a promotion/relegation playoff against the 10th placed First Division club, it should be facilitated. While there are financial challenges ahead for the First Division, there has to be a qualifying bar long term.


Looking forward to several more years of posts fro lads listing off provincial towns which will magically produce a semi-professional soccer club
If any provincial town has LoI ambitions, they should be entering youth teams. Talks of clubs magically appearing in a Third Tier is a backward step. Building through the youth leagues like Kerry did should be something of a blueprint.

[Eminence Grise]

Looking forward to several more years of posts fro lads listing off provincial towns which will magically produce a semi-professional soccer club


Plus the obligatory "every county should have its own saccar club" nonesense.

Sure it's alright, lads. The suits in the FAI will use AI to create as many leagues as you want. Or they will once they get the memo that the I these days is intelligence, not the man with the test tube (they're still probably thinking about how best to boost the population in provincial towns to a level that can support a club, so not entirely on the wrong track).

Mind you, I'm not sure ChatGPT has evolved enough yet. I just prompted it with: 'how do I create a third tier in the League of Ireland?'. It replied: 'are you *&%^ing serious?' It's ghosting me now.

[nr637]

I reckon they should build up the Men's Premier & First Division leagues to 12 teams in each, before they create a Third Tier. Invite new teams each year over the next 4/5 years and follow the Kerry FC format for a teams infrastructure.
I think the Mayo League & the Meath league has shown interest, so there is potential. The process should also tie in with the addition and promotion of a similar development of the Women's leagues with the addition of a First Division so that promotion & relegation can be created to help the leagues improve further.

[legendz]

I reckon they should build up the Men's Premier & First Division leagues to 12 teams in each, before they create a Third Tier. Invite new teams each year over the next 4/5 years and follow the Kerry FC format for a teams infrastructure.
I think the Mayo League & the Meath league has shown interest, so there is potential. The process should also tie in with the addition and promotion of a similar development of the Women's leagues with the addition of a First Division so that promotion & relegation can be created to help the leagues improve further.Will Premier Division clubs want to share the UEFA solidarity payments with two more clubs? If First Division clubs receive 15% crumbs, will they want to share that with more teams as well?
Mayo, Kildare and anyone building through the academies and LoI B teams should be the more dependable option for a third tier.

[BigEars]

The 3rd division being put back a year isn't a problem, so long as the FAI use the intervening period to actually make progress towards it.

They should be targeting the fixing of the Junior-Intermediate system for the start of next season, or at least the start of doing so.
For example creating either North & South or East & West Munster Leagues with the top clubs from the Junior clubs (who are interested) in those regions.
After a season of that you can put the top teams from the current Munster Senior League (should they be interested) and the best of North & South Munster teams into a Munster Premier Division.
You can then leave the North & South Divisions in place and use them to act as the tier below, which Junior leagues feed into.

Similar efforts could be made in Contact and Ulster with perhaps some differences between them, as the regions aren't exactly the same as each other geographically.

At the same time there should be a push for the likes of Mayo, Kildare, Carlow-Kilkenny, Monaghan etc to field at all underage groups, and put them in a better position in a few years to field Senior teams to play in the 3rd tier.

Also make enquiries to some of the colleges in regards to interest in fielding.

[legendz]

The likelihood of a Third Tier are the following being involved;

STRONG:
Klub Kildare
CK United
Mayo FC
Shamrock Rovers II

UNKNOWN:
Shelbourne II
St Pats II
Derry City II
Galway United II
Waterford II
Bohemian II
Cork City II

At least 10 of the above 11 will be needed for a national league. There isn't a queue of non LoI clubs joining the academy leagues. Clubs joining the academy leagues is more a sign of dependability as well. Cavan Monaghan have come and gone. Better to happen at academy level than to damage the brand of a Third Tier trying to get off the ground and become established.
A Third Tier could get by with 8 but if anyone pulls, less than 8 is far from ideal.

[Buckett]

I don't think B teams should be allowed, it completely devalues the division imo

[legendz]

I don't think B teams should be allowed, it completely devalues the division imo
The First Division doesn't want B teams. I don't think the Leinster and Munster Senior Leagues want B teams either. Any emerging LoI clubs that build up through the academy leagues are unlikely to be put out.
You've probably hit on the reason B teams should join. It is probably the best way progressive Premier Division city clubs can get B teams established at that level, without any major fuss.

[Eminence Grise]

Welcome, BigEars.


The 3rd division being put back a year isn't a problem, so long as the FAI use the intervening period to actually make progress towards it.

Hope springs eternal, though there's some serious vested interests to get round in just a year.


Also make enquiries to some of the colleges in regards to interest in fielding.

I can only speak for mine, where this is an absolute non-runner. All the HEIs are underfunded and don't have a half million to put into a team. The campuses of the new TUs are too widely scattered to make training and other logistics work, and most of their campus locations already have LoI teams. Tie-ins for access to training and sports science facilities, marketing and strategy consultancy, maybe scholarships that allow academy players play for the HEI team - that's where you might find some interest.

[Burnsie]

the FAI have contacted clubs as follows over the past couple of days:


We are pleased to inform you that the FAI will shortly be accepting Expressions of Interest for the new Men's Tier 3 which will be the top tier of Amateur Football and known as the 'FAI National League'.


The FAI will communicate further details of this at Thursday's General Assembly meeting. Final details will be released to all parts of the game and publicly in the week commencing 9th December.


The new 'FAI National League' is the first significant step towards the creation of an Irish Football pyramid in line with the FAI Football Pathways Plan. We would like to introduce the National League in August / September 2026 once the Expression of Interest and the application process has been completed.


We look forward to working closely with you on this exciting development for the future of Irish Football

[culloty82]

Interesting - if the National League were to link up with the LoI in time for the following season (2027), then the inaugural campaign could only last from August/September until December 2026 at longest?

[Mr A]

How does this fit into the junior-intermediate-senior designations I wonder? Largely irrelevant of course but at the same time could have impacts on voting rights at general council etc.

[legendz]

Do having academy structures form part of current licencing? If yes, seems non LoI clubs might be allowed join the Third Tier. Any potential promotion to the First Division should entail reasonable criteria by LoI standards, plus having academy structures in place.
If the "FAI National League" is the first step, possibly district leagues linking to a higher regional league is the next step. It'll take a long time for district leagues to be eventually linked to that third tier.

[Burnsie]

The third tier will be an amateur league and won't have LOI standards. The way it was explained to the clubs, you can throw a fence around the pitch and play away, like currently at intermediate level


Meanwhile, here's the DDSL making an absolute show of themselves while discussing calendar year football on Off the Ball:

https://x.com/offtheball/status/1864369075687969189

[2 Year Contract]

The third tier will be an amateur league and won't have LOI standards. The way it was explained to the clubs, you can throw a fence around the pitch and play away, like currently at intermediate level


Meanwhile, here's the DDSL making an absolute show of themselves while discussing calendar year football on Off the Ball:

https://x.com/offtheball/status/1864369075687969189

Question: “How does the GAA manage to continue through the summer at all if players/families are supposedly out of the country for 2 months?"

Answer: “67-70% of the population are on holidays for two months”

Talk about showing himself up as the out of touch spoofing fool that he is :D