Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[nigel-harps1954]

There is absolutely no reason a pyramid system can't work in Ireland, the same way it does in the rest of the world.

If a Salthill/Mervue get promoted..they can get relegated too.

If ten Dublin teams get promoted to the Premier Division, then fair play to them for being the best ten teams in the country.

Likewise, if ten Cork teams get there, well done to them, but they can easily capitulate and drop back to a third or fourth division and rebuild, rather than being stuck in the First Division.

I just don't understand any opposition to the idea.

[legendz]

I just don't understand any opposition to the idea.
The view in some quarters is that it will inhibit more teams attaining a professional setup. Non LoI entities from non LoI areas can join the youth leagues. Applying that at senior level is consistent. Club licencing criteria and one club for a urban area or region should offer a club the platform to attain a professional setup.
Finn Harps has the population of Donegal to attract. There can be a moment that sparks a game into life. If Finn Harps can find the spark that attracts consistent big crowds from the Donegal catchment area, being the only club with in that catchment area should assist.

[Kiki Balboa]

Yes - but hasn't that just deferred the same problem we had anyway?

Has it? The First has been a massive success really.


I think we can argue it was unsuccessful. We know the FAI had a plan to launch a 20-team third tier for 2023 and yet 12 months later we have not a single club for it (granted, some of the clubs would have been reserve teams). The only new team in that time, Kerry, are plugging a gap in the First Division, which has a pretty big rate of attrition. That's a failure in my eye.

2023 was always a weird time frame to use, and was never going to happen (just like to reach 30th rank in europe by 2025). And of course we would hear nothing about it, I doubt individual teams will announce it, as it would cause too big of ripples in their leagues. I would have always assumed that we would hear both the league and teams officially announced together. Thats not to say I know anything, and it could be very unsuccessful and has already died... but thats what I would have thought the process would have been.



There's something in this for sure. Yes, the MSL/LSL need to be more than a Cork/Dublin league for sure. And yes, you need to get rid of silly stuff like the AUL/United Churches League and the various district leagues.

But I still think it's the proper plan, even if it can't be just clicked into place like the Highland/Lowland league in Scotland. It'd be quicker than trying to convince 12 new clubs to jump up.

I think you are forgetting that the LSL and MSL have zero interest in changing their structures currently and do not want a pyramid. The only people who could do it is the FAI.


And I think MSL/LSL clubs are less likely to want to be promoted to a national third tier than to the First Division tbh. If the First Division is a graveyard, what's the third tier going to be like, when a good chunk of it is B teams (not hugely popular among "real" clubs on the continent afaik. I wouldn't be worried about the jump - let them have a target to bridge.

But is it though? I think graveyard is used to describe its national media coverage, not as in stagnant football thats not the First (well at least as bad as it could be). Only Athlone are really standing still.



Such as what, out of interest?

1) Too easy to get relegated from 3rd liga/ too hard to get promoted from the 5 regionalliga. A massive bottleneck for teams
2) Too big of a variation on and off the pitch. Teams who could get 10,000 to a game play teams who get 200- too hard for the big teams to rebuild
3) Unfocus use of resources- resources are too thinly spread across a 100 teams instead of 20 (for example hard to get on tv)

They were trying to introduce a 4th Liga before COVID

[Kiki Balboa]

There is absolutely no reason a pyramid system can't work in Ireland, the same way it does in the rest of the world.

If a Salthill/Mervue get promoted..they can get relegated too.

If ten Dublin teams get promoted to the Premier Division, then fair play to them for being the best ten teams in the country.

Likewise, if ten Cork teams get there, well done to them, but they can easily capitulate and drop back to a third or fourth division and rebuild, rather than being stuck in the First Division.

I just don't understand any opposition to the idea.

Its two seperate issues though... What is fair in a sporting sense, and how to develop football in the Country

[EatYerGreens]

So when it comes down to it, your stuff about rugby and GAA is irrelevant and quietly dropped, the points about the clubs not wanting a pyramid is also not relevant to the fact that it's shown to be the best system, and really you seem to think the status quo is best because it's too hard to do anything else?

You're deliverately conflating 2 completely unrelated points here.

The GAA, rugby etc point is about the SPECTATOR DEMAND for football in Ireland. The pyramid issue is about the structures. They are clearly very different things. You could have a very deep pyramid with tiny crowds, or a very shallow 'pyramid'/structure with huge crowds. Because the 2 things are clearly separate issues.

Where did I say that the status quo is best ? Or that nothing should be done ? I just presented what is an undeniable problem re how football is run in Ireland - but also gave a very clearly solution. You need to read what people actually write :cool:

[EatYerGreens]

The view in some quarters is that it will inhibit more teams attaining a professional setup. Non LoI entities from non LoI areas can join the youth leagues. Applying that at senior level is consistent. Club licencing criteria and one club for a urban area or region should offer a club the platform to attain a professional setup.
Finn Harps has the population of Donegal to attract. There can be a moment that sparks a game into life. If Finn Harps can find the spark that attracts consistent big crowds from the Donegal catchment area, being the only club with in that catchment area should assist.

Would all of Donegal genuinely be attracted to Finn Harps though ? Surely the very south of the county looks more towards Sligo than to Ballybofey (the Barnes Mor gap is a big social and historical barrier within the county) ? Likewise, Inishowen traditionally looks more towards Derry. And the Gaeltacht west of the county looks more towards Croke Park. I don't think you can just magically say that Finn Harps is the universal team for Donegal. If a Letterkenny team ever joined the senior game I think Harps would find themselves struggling to compete with them over time, purely because of the population and infrastructure in LK. Ballybofey and Stranorlar combined are only the 3rd biggest population centre in Donegal - with 6,000 people (vs 20,000 in Letterkenny, and a planned increase on that of 40+% over the next 20yrs).

[pineapple stu]

Has it? The First has been a massive success really.
On what basis?

Every single team to have joined it - bar Bray - has gone bankrupt. That's not a success. We've lost Newcastlewest, St James' Gate, St Francis, Home Farm, Kildare, Kilkenny, Mervue, Salthill, Cabinteely, Wexford and Waterford (both of whom came back) God knows how many Limerick teams - and that's just from those who were in the First Division at the time. It doesn't count Cobh, Monaghan, Dublin City or Sporting Fingal, who went bust in the Premier but were never really Premier Division sides. And Wexford/Waterford pulled a fast one by going bust, clearing debt, and restarting at the same level (hence Waterford being banned from Europe, and Fran Gavin has acknowledged Wexford did the same thing)

I'd challenge you to find a second tier anywhere in Europe with that rate of attrition. Graveyard? I think so.


I think you are forgetting that the LSL and MSL have zero interest in changing their structures currently and do not want a pyramid.
Not forgetting it at all. I completely agree. I've referenced it a number of times. And I'll do it again here - it's the biggest problem in all this.


1) Too easy to get relegated from 3rd liga/ too hard to get promoted from the 5 regionalliga. A massive bottleneck for teams
2) Too big of a variation on and off the pitch. Teams who could get 10,000 to a game play teams who get 200- too hard for the big teams to rebuild
3) Unfocus use of resources- resources are too thinly spread across a 100 teams instead of 20 (for example hard to get on tv)
Nothing unsurmountable there really. 10k crowds or TV coverage is unlikely to be an issue in a third tier here for example. A bottleneck will always happen where you drop down to multiple regional leagues. I don't think it's a concern.

[pineapple stu]

You're deliverately conflating 2 completely unrelated points here.

The GAA, rugby etc point is about the SPECTATOR DEMAND for football in Ireland. The pyramid issue is about the structures. They are clearly very different things. You could have a very deep pyramid with tiny crowds, or a very shallow 'pyramid'/structure with huge crowds. Because the 2 things are clearly separate issues.

Where did I say that the status quo is best ? Or that nothing should be done ? I just presented what is an undeniable problem re how football is run in Ireland - but also gave a very clearly solution. You need to read what people actually write :cool:
So the point you originally made about GAA/rugby is irrelevant then. Glad that's cleared up, cos you tend to put out a lot of irrelevant arguments.

The only solution you gave as far as I can see was that "It's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement" Government interference in FA matters always goes down well with FIFA/UEFA of course.

[culloty82]

You're deliverately conflating 2 completely unrelated points here.

The GAA, rugby etc point is about the SPECTATOR DEMAND for football in Ireland. The pyramid issue is about the structures. They are clearly very different things. You could have a very deep pyramid with tiny crowds, or a very shallow 'pyramid'/structure with huge crowds. Because the 2 things are clearly separate issues.

Where did I say that the status quo is best ? Or that nothing should be done ? I just presented what is an undeniable problem re how football is run in Ireland - but also gave a very clearly solution. You need to read what people actually write :cool:

Ironically, at the time Charlton fever was at its height, club rugby was in a similar or indeed worse position to where the League of Ireland is currently in terms of attendances, but was later rescued when the IRFU created the provincial franchises for the European Cup, and subsequently the Celtic League. Unfortunately, the FAI was solely focused on the national team at the time, so while junior soccer prospered across the country, the LoI never capitalised on the opportunity to either grow domestic support or attract new clubs.

[EatYerGreens]

On what basis?

Every single team to have joined it - bar Bray - has gone bankrupt. That's not a success. We've lost Newcastlewest, St James' Gate, St Francis, Home Farm, Kildare, Kilkenny, Mervue, Salthill, Cabinteely, Wexford and Waterford (both of whom came back) God knows how many Limerick teams - and that's just from those who were in the First Division at the time. It doesn't count Cobh, Monaghan, Dublin City or Sporting Fingal, who went bust in the Premier but were never really Premier Division sides.

I'd challenge you to find a second tier anywhere in Europe with that rate of attrition. Graveyard? I think so.


This is a very strange point, as you'e essentially blaming the first division for the problems that have dogged Irish football as a whole for over a century now.

Far more clubs have joined, left, gone bankrupt etc from the LOI when it was just a single tier. So on that basis, surely the League of Ireland as a whole is a graveyward ? It would be like like slating the leisure sector after 2008 for the fact a lot of it shut down, whilst ignoring the broader context with the economy and financial crash that was behind it all.

It's also deeply ironic that you so heavily champion a pyramid structure, yet when it suits your argument you're happy to slate a range of clubs who went bust when they were in the PD as "not really Premier Division clubs", despite the fact they were all promoted to that level on the field of play. That's not very pyramid of you :o

[EatYerGreens]

Ironically, at the time Charlton fever was at its height, club rugby was in a similar or indeed worse position to where the League of Ireland is currently in terms of attendances, but was later rescued when the IRFU created the provincial franchises for the European Cup, and subsequently the Celtic League. Unfortunately, the FAI was solely focused on the national team at the time, so while junior soccer prospered across the country, the LoI never capitalised on the opportunity to either grow domestic support or attract new clubs.

I'd agree that the Charlton era was a huge wasted opportunity for Irsih football. But i don;t think your rugby analogy works. Unless it's a call for made-up Irish football regions to join a wider international league? Club rugby in Ireland still gets fairly crap crowds. The support largely gravitates towards a quasi-international provincial level that is significantly higher up the foodchain and disconnected from the club game beneath it.

[EatYerGreens]

So the point you originally made about GAA/rugby is irrelevant then. Glad that's cleared up, cos you tend to put out a lot of irrelevant arguments.

Stop embarassing yourself now kid. Please read and accept what people write, even if it doesn't suit your argument.


The only solution you gave as far as I can see was that "It's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement" Government interference in FA matters always goes down well with FIFA/UEFA of course.

1) The FAI structure is such that it is not run by or for senior football. Please therefore explain to me how an organisation structured with such a predominance of other interest groups will vote to sacrifice the self-interest of those groups to benefit the minority senior game ? Especially when the only part of the lower levels of football to switch to a summer season took advantge of recent FAI turmoil to vote to switch back to the winter game at the first opportunity. Therefore gong in the completely OPPOSITE direction to what you're suggesting they will somehow magically all move is asked nicely. Please address that very obvious challenge.

2) Your point re UEFA/FIFA is disingenuous to a fairly absurd level. Political intereference is NOT the same as aligning a government's investment in football with the objectives of the body running football there. To conflate this with 'political intereference in football' is just plain dumb.

[Kiki Balboa]

I'd challenge you to find a second tier anywhere in Europe with that rate of attrition. Graveyard? I think so.



5 teams in the English Championship have entered Administration since 2010, (Crystal Palace, 2010, Portsmouth, 2012, Bolton Wanderers, 2018, Wigan Athletic, 2019, Derby County, 2022). All had their previous companies wound up.

Out of your list of teams, only Kildare, Kilkenny and Monaghan were from areas not already represented in LOI (but still are in LOI underage in a different form). Each of these 3 teams went bust after 2008- you know when something major happened to the country. All the other clubs also still exist apart from Dublin City and Sporting Fingal, just not in the LOI (in fact St. Francis wanted to rejoin the league only 2 or 3 years ago).

Anyways, I have no idea what you are arguing about.

I have no idea what is your actual point other than pyramid is good (despite nobody wanting it), and I dont get that if a pyramid was in place, what difference it would make to teams going bust or pulling out.

[pineapple stu]

Stop embarassing yourself now kid.
It's fairly hard to take you anyway seriously when you regularly resort to patronising ad hominems rather than actual debate, don't you think?

Nevertheless, in a (possibly vain) attempt to keep at debate rather than insults, I'll just note -


This is a very strange point, as you'e essentially blaming the first division for the problems that have dogged Irish football as a whole for over a century now.
Nope - I'm blaming the lack of a pyramid and (not exclusively, but certainly a big part). I've said over and again that adding a second - or third - tier to a failed system is still a failed system. If your options are LoI or bust, with no middleground, you've got a problem.


1) The FAI structure is such that it is not run by or for senior football. Please therefore explain to me how an organisation structured with such a predominance of other interest groups will vote to sacrifice the self-interest of those groups to benefit the minority senior game
I don't have to explain this. It's not relevant to the point that a pyramid structure would be the most beneficial option for the game here. I've acknowledged over and again that there are issues with rolling it out. (Yet ironically you accuse me of not reading what I want to in people's posts...)

And good luck with your verbiage trying to get you around rules on Government interference in football. And do you honestly think that's the role of Government, to meddle in relative minutiae like that? Do you think they should be withholding funds from the GAA because they're not happy with the black card rule?

[pineapple stu]

5 teams in the English Championship have entered Administration since 2010, (Crystal Palace, 2010, Portsmouth, 2012, Bolton Wanderers, 2018, Wigan Athletic, 2019, Derby County, 2022). All had their previous companies wound up.
So that doesn't match the LoI's rate of attrition. (Of the 2010 First Division, five clubs are gone, and it's a much smaller division with no churn at the bottom)

But the English clubs just dropped a division, continued on, and could get back to where they had been. Here, you either go bust and restart at the same level, or drop out of the LoI entirely and never come back.

That's a key difference, don't you think?

All I'm arguing is that a pyramid system is proven across Europe to be better than our model of trying to form a new club somewhere there's a gap and hoping they somehow do well.

[Kiki Balboa]

So that doesn't match the LoI's rate of attrition. (Of the 2010 First Division, five clubs are gone, and it's a much smaller division with no churn at the bottom)

But the English clubs just dropped a division, continued on, and could get back to where they had been. Here, you either go bust and restart at the same level, or drop out of the LoI entirely and never come back.

That's a key difference, don't you think?

All I'm arguing is that a pyramid system is proven across Europe to be better than our model of trying to form a new club somewhere there's a gap and hoping they somehow do well.

Well they are not gone. Mervue, Salthill, Monaghan still exist (funny that it suit your arguments about the English clubs but not First Division clubs)- while Wexford Youths and Limerick have phoenix clubs in the First.

Again, I have no idea what your argument is- LOI is obviously not a closed shop, I cant understad why a pyramid system would radically change anything in itself, other than just being neat.

Also really, since really the 90s, apart from the post-crash years- LOI has been growing quite steadily, ableit hiccups, and thats with your graveyard first division.

[pineapple stu]

Ok - they're gone from the LoI and can't come back. Which is the key point. There's no structure to get back in.

The LoI is effectively a closed shop, as Tralee found out when their application was denied for no reason (which really screwed them over - a huge problem with the proposed third tier) and Salthill/Mervue found out when being quietly forced out so Galway could come back.

Since the 90s, the LoI has shrunk from 22 clubs to 19 last season. That's not steady growth. Yes, you can argue that crowds are up and that's good. But strength in depth is also a sign of health and we're not growing there. We're going backwards.

[legendz]

The youth leagues have not been a closed shop and a welcome addition.
The FAI and the league clubs and have two years to decide the next step for the league. Kildare and Carlow-Kilkenny will either be invited to join the First Division or to join a third tier. If a third tier is the preference going forward, that's two years to get at least six League of Ireland clubs to commit to entering a reserve team.
If Kildare and/or Carlow-Kilkenny enter an expanded First Division, it will be more difficult to attempt forming a third tier.

[EatYerGreens]

It's fairly hard to take you anyway seriously when you regularly resort to patronising ad hominems rather than actual debate, don't you think?

Nevertheless, in a (possibly vain) attempt to keep at debate rather than insults, I'll just note -


Nope - I'm blaming the lack of a pyramid and (not exclusively, but certainly a big part). I've said over and again that adding a second - or third - tier to a failed system is still a failed system. If your options are LoI or bust, with no middleground, you've got a problem.


I don't have to explain this. It's not relevant to the point that a pyramid structure would be the most beneficial option for the game here. I've acknowledged over and again that there are issues with rolling it out. (Yet ironically you accuse me of not reading what I want to in people's posts...)

And good luck with your verbiage trying to get you around rules on Government interference in football. And do you honestly think that's the role of Government, to meddle in relative minutiae like that? Do you think they should be withholding funds from the GAA because they're not happy with the black card rule?

Let's cut through the bluff and bluster here. How do you believe a proper pyramid system can/will come into existence in Irish football, given the obvious barriers regarding how the FAI is structured ?

And you're just not getting the argument re Givernment funding. It isn't the government that does or would distribute funding to football clubs. It never has been, and most probably never will be. It's the FAI. So the FAI makes a good argument to the Government re what it;s trying to achieve and why. Givernemnbt buys into that and gives the FAi the money, which the FAI then distributes in-accordance with its own desires to see structural change. That's the FAI handing out the money, in line wiht its own objectives. So please explain how that amounts to 'political interference' ? All of this ignores that obvious side point that the goverment recently witheld funding to the FAI because of the post--Delaney issues, and UEFA didn;t lose its sh!t over it all (they in fact were part of the whole process to get the FAI sorted out)

I'd agree with some of the other posters on here. We get that you believe a pyramid system is the ideal approach to Irish football, and there would probably be broad agreement on that. But you refuse to address the obvious complications to having it introduced here. And seem to think it'll be a cure-all. When the evidence of other leagues (e.g. Wales, NI) suggests that it doesn't realy change very much at all. For example - even with a pyramid clubs in Wales still regualrly end up in financial and/or organisational problems and go bust (e.g Bangor, Rhyl). And clubs in pyramid systems don't always agree to get promoted, or don't have the faciltiies to enable it (e.g. Strabane Athletic). So it really isn't the solution to all our woes that you appear to be claiming it would be. And regardless - you have to explain how it would be implemented upon a patently unwilling FAI sttructure ?

[EatYerGreens]

Ok - they're gone from the LoI and can't come back. Which is the key point. There's no structure to get back in.


How can they not get back ? Cobh Ramblers did.

[culloty82]

The youth leagues have not been a closed shop and a welcome addition.
The FAI and the league clubs and have two years to decide the next step for the league. Kildare and Carlow-Kilkenny will either be invited to join the First Division or to join a third tier. If a third tier is the preference going forward, that's two years to get at least six League of Ireland clubs to commit to entering a reserve team.
If Kildare and/or Carlow-Kilkenny enter an expanded First Division, it will be more difficult to attempt forming a third tier.

If all the new clubs proved a success, then the ideal scenario would be two twelve-team divisions (Monaghan and Mayo?) After that, however, there are no obvious immediate candidates for expansion, so the third tier with reserve and LSL teams would serve more as a bridge between underage leagues and the First Division, rather than an A Championship Mark Two.

[Kiki Balboa]

If all the new clubs proved a success, then the ideal scenario would be two twelve-team divisions (Monaghan and Mayo?) After that, however, there are no obvious immediate candidates for expansion, so the third tier with reserve and LSL teams would serve more as a bridge between underage leagues and the First Division, rather than an A Championship Mark Two.

Monaghan United dropped out of the Ulster Senior League, and now compete in the Monaghan/ Cavan league- where they are 4th behind Monaghan Town.

[nigel-harps1954]

Monaghan United dropped out of the Ulster Senior League, and now compete in the Monaghan/ Cavan league- where they are 4th behind Monaghan Town.

Yeah, but, the Ulster Senior League is a joke too. I don't blame them for dropping out. Can't find a final table anywhere, but they really struggled in it last year too. It was said to have been them preparing to step back up to senior football again, but it just didn't happen in the end.

[outspoken]

Sad reality is the support just isn't there for it. Monaghan never had big crowds and having gone to college I'm Cavan the only two things people care about up there is GAA and Man United. LOI is like something from a different planet.

[legendz]

How can they not get back ? Cobh Ramblers did.Cobh did through the A Championship. Unexpected situations can arise where clubs might need to drop to a third tier. Also if any club needs to reset, they should be rebooting so to speak in that third tier.

[pineapple stu]

Let's cut through the bluff and bluster here. How do you believe a proper pyramid system can/will come into existence in Irish football, given the obvious barriers regarding how the FAI is structured ?
It's very difficult. I've not denied that, and I'm not arguing against that.

But in the medium-term, the LoI needs new clubs. To keep leaking clubs like we have been doing the past 20+ years is not sustainable. That's acknowledged by the desire to create a third tier. Yet here we are, a couple of months before it was due to be launched and we haven't a single team interested. It's too much of a risk, and the Tralee Dynamoes issue showed that most starkly.

Pretty much everywhere else in Europe, a pyramid system is used to find the best clubs and elevate them to the top, to allow clubs drop back down to a lower level, regroup and aim to get back to where they were. It helps push clubs to improve themselves to new levels, creates churn and competition, and creates more balanced divisions, and not the daft <Insert County Here> District League nonsense we have, a holdover from the 19th century. All of that is good and why it's a success. Heck, even the First Division is unhelpfully uncompetitive at times.

Clubs may still reject promotion - it happens in England - but so what? If they are denied promotion because they don't have the facilities, then it encourages them to improve their grounds, so we don't end up with a club whose main stand is some wooden pallets (Cabinteely). Clubs may still experience financial trouble, but it's far easier to drop one division than to drop out entirely and have no formal way back in unless, like Cobh, your face fits. And it avoids the farce of Waterford/Wexford going bust, writing off a load of debt, starting back at the same level and stealing an unfair competitive advantage on other clubs.

Your point on Government funding gets more daft every time you re-write it. Your original point was -


This is where it's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement.

But now you think the FAI - not being able to achieve a pyramid because of its corporate structure - votes to go to Government and ask it to pressurise itself to put a system in place? Why on earth would an organisation being hindered in reform vote to ask Government to tie its hands so it can achieve this thing it doesn't want to achieve?

And the Government withholding funding pending an investigation into obvious serious financial irregularities is completely different to the Government withholding funding because it wants, to quote you, "to force change".

So while it absolutely isn't easy to bring about, the pyramid is better than the current "Stick a pin in a map and hope for the best" routine. It has to be the medium-term goal for the FAI here (and it is, by the sounds of it, but they're getting kickback) The main arguments against it here (people watch rugby, the German fourth tier has clubs with 10k fans and 200 fans, the German fourth tier has trouble giving fair TV rights, Salthill and Mervue might get promoted, etc, etc) don't stack up.

I'm not claiming it's the solution to all our woes - I've said that repeatedly, but you do like putting words in people's mouths. But it's factually better than the current setup, as evidenced all around the continent, so it should be the aim here too.

[Buller]

There's only one way to settle this pyramid talk - a good aul fashioned poll.

Foot.ie is a democracy, right?

[pineapple stu]

"Democracy is the first step to anarchy" :)

(A fun quote I heard from a guy trying to influence a group who wanted to vote out covid measures)

[Kiki Balboa]

It's very difficult. I've not denied that, and I'm not arguing against that.

But in the medium-term, the LoI needs new clubs. To keep leaking clubs like we have been doing the past 20+ years is not sustainable. That's acknowledged by the desire to create a third tier. Yet here we are, a couple of months before it was due to be launched and we haven't a single team interested. It's too much of a risk, and the Tralee Dynamoes issue showed that most starkly.

Pretty much everywhere else in Europe, a pyramid system is used to find the best clubs and elevate them to the top, to allow clubs drop back down to a lower level, regroup and aim to get back to where they were. It helps push clubs to improve themselves to new levels, creates churn and competition, and creates more balanced divisions, and not the daft <Insert County Here> District League nonsense we have, a holdover from the 19th century. All of that is good and why it's a success. Heck, even the First Division is unhelpfully uncompetitive at times.

Clubs may still reject promotion - it happens in England - but so what? If they are denied promotion because they don't have the facilities, then it encourages them to improve their grounds, so we don't end up with a club whose main stand is some wooden pallets (Cabinteely). Clubs may still experience financial trouble, but it's far easier to drop one division than to drop out entirely and have no formal way back in unless, like Cobh, your face fits. And it avoids the farce of Waterford/Wexford going bust, writing off a load of debt, starting back at the same level and stealing an unfair competitive advantage on other clubs.

Your point on Government funding gets more daft every time you re-write it. Your original point was -



But now you think the FAI - not being able to achieve a pyramid because of its corporate structure - votes to go to Government and ask it to pressurise itself to put a system in place? Why on earth would an organisation being hindered in reform vote to ask Government to tie its hands so it can achieve this thing it doesn't want to achieve?

And the Government withholding funding pending an investigation into obvious serious financial irregularities is completely different to the Government withholding funding because it wants, to quote you, "to force change".

So while it absolutely isn't easy to bring about, the pyramid is better than the current "Stick a pin in a map and hope for the best" routine. It has to be the medium-term goal for the FAI here (and it is, by the sounds of it, but they're getting kickback) The main arguments against it here (people watch rugby, the German fourth tier has clubs with 10k fans and 200 fans, the German fourth tier has trouble giving fair TV rights, Salthill and Mervue might get promoted, etc, etc) don't stack up.

I'm not claiming it's the solution to all our woes - I've said that repeatedly, but you do like putting words in people's mouths. But it's factually better than the current setup, as evidenced all around the continent, so it should be the aim here too.

What are you talking about? You are really just using a lot of strawman arguments that nobody is making- hence this is just dragging on.

I dont think anybody is saying they are against a pyramid system either, just that it would not be their priority for Irish football right now. In fact, it was part of the FAI plans after the 3rd Tier being introduced.

[pineapple stu]

What are you talking about? You are really just using a lot of strawman arguments that nobody is making- hence this is just dragging on.
Eh?

Those are the exact concerns which have been raised on thread. You raised the Mervue/Salthill issue here (https://foot.ie/threads/271404-Third-Tier-Talk-A-Championship-Mk-II?p=2132483&viewfull=1#post2132483) (even though a pyramid would have sorted that out quick enough, and possibly never given it a chance to happen in the first place), and also raised the concerns over how things have gone in Germany (https://foot.ie/threads/271404-Third-Tier-Talk-A-Championship-Mk-II?p=2132529&viewfull=1#post2132529).

I'm not sure how you can say no-one is making the arguments at those links?


I dont think anybody is saying they are against a pyramid system either
The starting point of all this was Buller saying (https://foot.ie/threads/271404-Third-Tier-Talk-A-Championship-Mk-II?p=2132356&viewfull=1#post2132356) "never have been a believer in the pyramid as a must had". He later says he's not completely against the idea in fairness. But should it be the priority for Irish football right now? Yes, I think it should be. Certainly up there with how to increase funding to the LoI and who should take over from Stephen Kenny.

[EatYerGreens]

It's very difficult. I've not denied that, and I'm not arguing against that.

But in the medium-term, the LoI needs new clubs. To keep leaking clubs like we have been doing the past 20+ years is not sustainable. That's acknowledged by the desire to create a third tier. Yet here we are, a couple of months before it was due to be launched and we haven't a single team interested. It's too much of a risk, and the Tralee Dynamoes issue showed that most starkly.

Pretty much everywhere else in Europe, a pyramid system is used to find the best clubs and elevate them to the top, to allow clubs drop back down to a lower level, regroup and aim to get back to where they were. It helps push clubs to improve themselves to new levels, creates churn and competition, and creates more balanced divisions, and not the daft <Insert County Here> District League nonsense we have, a holdover from the 19th century. All of that is good and why it's a success. Heck, even the First Division is unhelpfully uncompetitive at times.

Clubs may still reject promotion - it happens in England - but so what? If they are denied promotion because they don't have the facilities, then it encourages them to improve their grounds, so we don't end up with a club whose main stand is some wooden pallets (Cabinteely). Clubs may still experience financial trouble, but it's far easier to drop one division than to drop out entirely and have no formal way back in unless, like Cobh, your face fits. And it avoids the farce of Waterford/Wexford going bust, writing off a load of debt, starting back at the same level and stealing an unfair competitive advantage on other clubs.

You acknowledge that it's very difficult - and then launch into a lecture that has absolutely nothing to do with how the task will be achieved. So I'll ask yet again - in the real world of how the FAI is currently structured and operates, please can you clarify how a pyramid system will be achieved ? I've suggested a route to do it, but you're willfully misrepresenting it in an attempt to trash it (more on this below). Yet you still haven't explained to us how the pyramid you crave will be magicked into existence. So enough of the bluff and bluster yet again please - tell us how it will realistically happen. Not with regards why they do in Wales or Uzbekhistan - but within the constraints of the real world reality and structures of the FAI ?


Your point on Government funding gets more daft every time you re-write it. Your original point was -

But now you think the FAI - not being able to achieve a pyramid because of its corporate structure - votes to go to Government and ask it to pressurise itself to put a system in place? Why on earth would an organisation being hindered in reform vote to ask Government to tie its hands so it can achieve this thing it doesn't want to achieve?

And the Government withholding funding pending an investigation into obvious serious financial irregularities is completely different to the Government withholding funding because it wants, to quote you, "to force change".

You're obviously not a daft person, so I can only assume you're wilfully playing silly buggers with what I've written in ann attenpt to trash it. I'll therefore give you the benefit of the doubt that it IS driven by not grasping the point, and outline below an idiot's guide to how this sort of stuff happens in the real world :

1) The top suits who run the FAI decide that they need to change how football in Ireland works (particularly when, as you point out, they see everyone else using a different approach/system). But unlike yourself, they acknowledge that the FAI's own structures represent an impediment to that change. And they also acknowledge that they are unlikely to be able to get those structures reformed enough (or at least not in a hurry) to deliver the desired change. So they need to come up with a Plan B (i.e. the bit you lack).

2) They therefore have a chat with the Minister and department looking after sports - with the 2028 Euros being the perfect context in which to do that. They explain their view that a pyramid would make sense for Irish football, but highlight that they can't deliver it within their current structure.

3) Rather than everyone just shrug their shoulders and continue dreaming about change in the face of structural barriers to it, and not actually doing anything to deliver that desired change (a.k.a. The Pineapple Stu Technique), they discuss with the Minister/Department ways in which Irish football could be 'encouraged' to willingly change itself in-line with the analysis of the senior FAI officers, the reality of pyramids elewhere etc etc. And they come up with a way in whcih this can be done.

4) Presumably it will start with some form of external consultancy report/analysis into the Best Practise for how to run and organise Irish domestic football. That report would recommend various things - including a pyramid and a range of required investments (because that's how you utimately get reluctant interest groups on-board). So it will give both the FAI and the government something to say - 'Look - the experts and the way football is done elsewhere all says say we need to change how we do things in Ireland'.

5) The government responds by saying it will help the FAI deliver the conclusions of its report into reshaping Irish football in tune with Best Practice, through the release of additional funding. Because money is at the end of the day what clubs will listen to most - and therefore by-extension leagues and those who represent them. The FAI says that the package of necessary changes all have to be implemented as a whole, not cherry-picked. So the funding therefore becomes dependent upon universal implementation.

6) This 'carrot' of money plus government support wins over various clubs and some of the leagues. The pressure stars to build on the leagues that are reluctant, out of fear that they will lose out to other leagues which are supportive (especially in Dublin where there are so many feckin leagues). The usual leanning and cajoling and promising process that happens in the background of political organisatons like the FAI, and especially so in somewhere like Ireland

7) As the over-arching body for football in the State, the FAI is naturally the body responsible for delivering both that change and the funding involved.

8) UEFA don't have the silly meltdown you're claiming they would. Because they're not daft, and the FAI will have squared everything off with them in advance anyway. And because it doesn;t amount to 'political interference' anyway. It's just a government helping to fund the conlclusions of football's own report into hwo to improve itself.

This is how in the real world difficult shizz gets done. The whole process could obviously start with the FAI just commisioning a study BEFORE they speak to the givernment of course. I just thrink they'd be wiser to ensure that the goverment is on-board with the whole plan from the start - otherwise it would be still-born without the funding injection.

So what's your proposed solution to delivering the pyramid ? Let's hear it.


So while it absolutely isn't easy to bring about, the pyramid is better than the current "Stick a pin in a map and hope for the best" routine. It has to be the medium-term goal for the FAI here (and it is, by the sounds of it, but they're getting kickback) The main arguments against it here (people watch rugby, the German fourth tier has clubs with 10k fans and 200 fans, the German fourth tier has trouble giving fair TV rights, Salthill and Mervue might get promoted, etc, etc) don't stack up.

I'm not claiming it's the solution to all our woes - I've said that repeatedly, but you do like putting words in people's mouths. But it's factually better than the current setup, as evidenced all around the continent, so it should be the aim here too.

More verbiage. Still no proposed way to achieve the pyramid you crave. How is it going to be delivered in the face of a reluctant FAI structure ? Please either tell us that or stop wanging on about what is otherwise just a pointless daydream.

[legendz]

Do all district leagues in Munster have a seat on the Munster FA? Does the same apply for Leinster, Connacht and Ulster?

[culloty82]

If (and that's a very big If) the third tier is greenlit for 2024, CK United plan to be involved in that inaugural season:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjdigUnWIAEvIl9?format=jpg&name=large

[nr637]

CK United looks and sounds like one those clubs from the former Soviet Eastern Bloc during the Cold War! :embarrassed:

[Longfordian]

I think the chairman seems a bit naive when it comes to sponsorship if he thinks just calling the club CK United will overcome any issues businesses have with sponsoring a club in another county. Also I'm pretty sure everyone thinks of Shamrock Rovers as a Dublin club. Amongst other things.

[sbgawa]

I think the chairman seems a bit naive when it comes to sponsorship if he thinks just calling the club CK United will overcome any issues businesses have with sponsorsing a club in another county. Also I'm pretty sure everyone thinks of Shamrock Rovers as a Dublin club. Amongst other things.

Not alone are we thought of as a Dublin club i would say a South Dublin club

[EatYerGreens]

CK United looks and sounds like one those clubs from the former Soviet Eastern Bloc during the Cold War! :embarrassed:

It sounds like Calvin Klein's sportswear sub-brand.

[nigel-harps1954]

Bit weird they'd be looking for a stand, or land anywhere, when Buckley Park is lying there unused.

[sidewayspasser]

CK United looks and sounds like one those clubs from the former Soviet Eastern Bloc during the Cold War! :embarrassed:
CSKA Kilkenny

[EalingGreen]

There are 2 very key difference between NI and ROI. Firstly - NI is a much more urbanised society, and football is primarily an urban sport. The Republic has half the popualtion density of the north, and GAA is much more of a rural sport. So those 2 factors provide some of the explanation for what goes on IMO - both north and south.

This completely understands demographics*.

NI is heavily urbanised East of the Bann, much less so to the West. Which is not unlike ROI, where the East/South is heavily urbanised, but the West/North much less so.

E.G. in ROI the Border Counties (Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim, Monaghan, Sligo), Western counties (Galway, Mayo, Roscommon) and Midland counties (Laois, Longford, Offaly, Westmeath) comprise 12 counties with only 1.14 million inhabitants, spread over half(?) the total area. Meaning the other 14 counties have 3.62 million inhabitants (2016 stats):
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rsdgi/regionalsdgsireland2017/nt/

Indeed Dublin and the Mid East counties of Kildare, Louth, Meath, Wicklow have over 2 m. people i.e. more than all of NI, but in an area approx. half the size of NI i.e. v.heavily urbanised.

Or look at it another way, ROI has 22 towns/cities with a population over 20k, comprising 2.28m people, whereas NI has 13 such towns/cities, comprising 870k (incl. Derry!)

In short, ROI has far more people living in urban areas than NI, no matter how you count it. The fact that it also has a large area to the North/West which is sparsely populated, and where GAA reigns, does not change this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_ population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_localities_in_Northern_Ireland_by_populati on

* - People often think of Australia as having very low population density. Whereas the great bulk (90%?) of its 24m population lives in a relatively small number of towns/cities on the East Coast or Perth/WA, leaving 90% of the country virtually empty. Meaning the Australian population is actually extremely urbanised.



The other is religion. If you look at the top 3 divisions of the Irish League pyramid, the clubs in it are overwhelmingly from what would be considered unionist towns. Some with very high protestant populations/catchments, especially in the top tier (e.g. Ballymena, Portadown, Crusaders, Coleraine, Glentoran, Carickfergus, Larne). This trend continues in the lower tiers (e.g. Loughall, Ballyclare, Dundela, Annagh, Dollingstown, Ballymacash etc), such that there are very few teams in the top 3 tiers from a nationalist area or with a fanbase that is not clearly unionist (I make it just Cliftonville, Newry and Warrenpoint from genuinely 'nationalist' towns (?), with Queens and PSNI arguably 'neutral' ?). And this is despite the demography of NI being roughly half and half between protestants and catholics. This is all key because it suggests strongly that Irish League football largely has the protestant population in-play to appeal to, but struggles to tap into the other half of the population and the areas where it lives. There are probably multiple reasons for why that is so - with competition from gaelic games certainly being a factor in at least some places (as well as the fact that outside of cities, most of the bigger towns in NI are very protestant - and again, football is primarily an urban sport).

The north therefore provides a useful 'control' for the argument that gaelic games provide genuine competition for football in the south. And it would suggest strongly that they do - as most of the interest and participation in senior domestic football comes from the unionist half of the population (with other factors no doubt contributing to that too).
This is also misleading, in two respects.

First, a pyramid is about more than just the top 3 tiers. So if you go down through the Intermediate and Junior tiers, you'll see that they include clubs from every section and area of NI. E.G. the Fermanagh & Western FA operates in a very rural, Nationalist majority area. Yet it still comprises 32 separate clubs in 3 divisions, plus 3 reserve divisions, plus youth, women and girls leagues etc. There is actually more Nationalist participation than Unionist, including GAA players who play both codes; also players from across the border.
Or, if you take eg schools competitions, the MacRory Cup is the premier GAA schools competition in Ulster. In 2022 it had 16 entrants, two of them from ROI and all Catholic Maintained Grammars. Similarly, the Ulster Rugby Schools Cup had 20 entrants, all Controlled (i.e. Protestant or Mixed) schools, very predominantly Grammar. Whereas the football equivlent, NISFA Schools Cup, each year has over 120 entrants, from all over NI, city and country, and including Controlled, Maintained, Integrated, Grammar, Comprehensive and even Gaelic language!

The second respect is that football is not just defined by the crowds* that the Senior clubs attract. It also includes players, managers, referees, administrators and volunteers, also sponsors and advertisers etc

Just look at the team sheets from this match between Institute, the "other" team in Derry (originally called the Presbyterian Institute, and currently playing in the Brandywell), and Ballinamallard, a small Protestant village in otherwise Nationalist majority Fermanagh:
Institute: John Connolly, Jay Riley, Shaun Leppard, Rhys McDermott, Conor Quigley; Aidan McCauley, Mark McFadden, Liam Walsh (Cormac Burke 80); Ian Parkhill, Caolan McLaughlin (Gareth Brown 36), Brendan McLaughlin.
Ballinamallard United: Rory Brown, Dean Curry, Mark Stafford, Richard Clarke (Ronan McKinley 84), Aaron Arkinson, Evan Tweed (Christopher Kelly 31), BJ Banda, Joshua McIlwaine, Darragh Byrne, Reece Byrne (Callum Moorehead 84), Sean McEvoy (Patrick Ferry HT).
Referee: Mr Shane McGonigle
Obviously you can't always go by names, bit it is clear that the big majority of those are from the Nationalist community, incl. a number who are from ROI!

Or take Managers: Coleraine and Larne, for example, are both strongly Unionist towns, but are managed by Oran Kearney and Tiernan Lynch. While the NI Football League's Chief Executive, their first ever, is Gerard Lawlor (ex Cliftonville), while Linfield's General Manager is Dubliner Pat Fenlon.

But in any case, even if you were correct - and you're not - in characterising Football in NI as being a Unionist/Prod sport, pretty much only played in urban areas, then you might conclude that the real "football population" of NI is barely 1 million i.e. 20% of that of ROI, rather than 40%. Yet we can still maintain a healthy pyramid, making it even less explicable why ROI cannot.

* - Note, too, that 20% of admission prices in NI are lost to VAT, unlike in ROI. Were NI clubs able to keep that, they could reduce prices to attract more fans and/or invest it in better facilities etc.



That kind of happened when Cork got demoted to the First Division though. In reality it had little impact on the Premier Division, which if anything has flourished in the last couple of years in their absence (though obviously not because of that absence). Other clubs just stepped into their shoes as the main non-Dublin competitiors (e.g. Derry).

And let's remember that the Irish League didn't "lose" Derry. It essentially pushed the club out, refused to let them back in, and gave its blessing to them going off to what at the time was a much weaker LOI thinking that would get a pesky problem off their back. Fast-forward 40yrs and the Candystripes are the best supported club in NI, the LOI is tronger than the IL, and the northern league is (still) massively dominated by Belfast clubs*. It's all rather backfired spectacularly for the Irish League you could say.
OK, I'll happily accept "pushed out" or whatever term you prefer, since it doesn't change my point. Which was that DCFC's permanent switch to the LOI was a huge loss to NI football, but we've withstood it. Whereas Cork being relegated to the First Division for a period is nothing like eg their leaving the LOI to play in another country entirely.



*(You have to go back over a quarter of a century to the last time a club outside of Belfast won the Irish League (Portadown, 1996). They also won it in 1990/1 and 1989/90. Prior to that you have to go back to Coleraine in 1973/4 (a team that was apparently full of ex Derry City players), and before that Derry City in 1964/5. So only 4 of the last 50 league titles in NI have been won by non-Belfast clubs, with only 2 different clubs involved in that).Let's overlook for the moment the fact that Larne are currently 8 points clear at the top of the table with half the season played, the whole point of the pyramid is that it has successfully encouraged and facilitated new clubs from new areas of NI which never had Intermediate, never mind Senior, clubs before, while providing healthy competition via Promotion & Relegation, as individual clubs progressed or declined. Consequently the "attrition" rate of NI clubs going bust, before having to reform, or even disappearing entirely, is rather less than that in ROI.

P.S. I don't say any of that in order to "big up" the IL, never mind "do down" the LOI - the LOI has also many strengths from which the IL could learn. But the example of the IFA/IL in introducing, expanding and upgrading the pyramid over 20-odd years has undoubtedly been of great benefit in raising standards in the game in NI. And imo, were the FAI/LOI to do the same, it should prove equally beneficial south of the border.

[legendz]

2024 seems optimistic.
https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/arid-40778571.html
If the third tier does get off the ground, it was suggested that third level teams might be invited also.

[Shinkicker]

This completely understands demographics*.

NI is heavily urbanised East of the Bann, much less so to the West. Which is not unlike ROI, where the East/South is heavily urbanised, but the West/North much less so.

E.G. in ROI the Border Counties (Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim, Monaghan, Sligo), Western counties (Galway, Mayo, Roscommon) and Midland counties (Laois, Longford, Offaly, Westmeath) comprise 12 counties with only 1.14 million inhabitants, spread over half(?) the total area. Meaning the other 14 counties have 3.62 million inhabitants (2016 stats):
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rsdgi/regionalsdgsireland2017/nt/

Indeed Dublin and the Mid East counties of Kildare, Louth, Meath, Wicklow have over 2 m. people i.e. more than all of NI, but in an area approx. half the size of NI i.e. v.heavily urbanised.

Or look at it another way, ROI has 22 towns/cities with a population over 20k, comprising 2.28m people, whereas NI has 13 such towns/cities, comprising 870k (incl. Derry!)

In short, ROI has far more people living in urban areas than NI, no matter how you count it. The fact that it also has a large area to the North/West which is sparsely populated, and where GAA reigns, does not change this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_ population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_localities_in_Northern_Ireland_by_populati on

* - People often think of Australia as having very low population density. Whereas the great bulk (90%?) of its 24m population lives in a relatively small number of towns/cities on the East Coast or Perth/WA, leaving 90% of the country virtually empty. Meaning the Australian population is actually extremely urbanised.

This is also misleading, in two respects.

First, a pyramid is about more than just the top 3 tiers. So if you go down through the Intermediate and Junior tiers, you'll see that they include clubs from every section and area of NI. E.G. the Fermanagh & Western FA operates in a very rural, Nationalist majority area. Yet it still comprises 32 separate clubs in 3 divisions, plus 3 reserve divisions, plus youth, women and girls leagues etc. There is actually more Nationalist participation than Unionist, including GAA players who play both codes; also players from across the border.
Or, if you take eg schools competitions, the MacRory Cup is the premier GAA schools competition in Ulster. In 2022 it had 16 entrants, two of them from ROI and all Catholic Maintained Grammars. Similarly, the Ulster Rugby Schools Cup had 20 entrants, all Controlled (i.e. Protestant or Mixed) schools, very predominantly Grammar. Whereas the football equivlent, NISFA Schools Cup, each year has over 120 entrants, from all over NI, city and country, and including Controlled, Maintained, Integrated, Grammar, Comprehensive and even Gaelic language!

The second respect is that football is not just defined by the crowds* that the Senior clubs attract. It also includes players, managers, referees, administrators and volunteers, also sponsors and advertisers etc

Just look at the team sheets from this match between Institute, the "other" team in Derry (originally called the Presbyterian Institute, and currently playing in the Brandywell), and Ballinamallard, a small Protestant village in otherwise Nationalist majority Fermanagh:
Institute: John Connolly, Jay Riley, Shaun Leppard, Rhys McDermott, Conor Quigley; Aidan McCauley, Mark McFadden, Liam Walsh (Cormac Burke 80); Ian Parkhill, Caolan McLaughlin (Gareth Brown 36), Brendan McLaughlin.
Ballinamallard United: Rory Brown, Dean Curry, Mark Stafford, Richard Clarke (Ronan McKinley 84), Aaron Arkinson, Evan Tweed (Christopher Kelly 31), BJ Banda, Joshua McIlwaine, Darragh Byrne, Reece Byrne (Callum Moorehead 84), Sean McEvoy (Patrick Ferry HT).
Referee: Mr Shane McGonigle
Obviously you can't always go by names, bit it is clear that the big majority of those are from the Nationalist community, incl. a number who are from ROI!

Or take Managers: Coleraine and Larne, for example, are both strongly Unionist towns, but are managed by Oran Kearney and Tiernan Lynch. While the NI Football League's Chief Executive, their first ever, is Gerard Lawlor (ex Cliftonville), while Linfield's General Manager is Dubliner Pat Fenlon.

But in any case, even if you were correct - and you're not - in characterising Football in NI as being a Unionist/Prod sport, pretty much only played in urban areas, then you might conclude that the real "football population" of NI is barely 1 million i.e. 20% of that of ROI, rather than 40%. Yet we can still maintain a healthy pyramid, making it even less explicable why ROI cannot.

* - Note, too, that 20% of admission prices in NI are lost to VAT, unlike in ROI. Were NI clubs able to keep that, they could reduce prices to attract more fans and/or invest it in better facilities etc.

OK, I'll happily accept "pushed out" or whatever term you prefer, since it doesn't change my point. Which was that DCFC's permanent switch to the LOI was a huge loss to NI football, but we've withstood it. Whereas Cork being relegated to the First Division for a period is nothing like eg their leaving the LOI to play in another country entirely.

Let's overlook for the moment the fact that Larne are currently 8 points clear at the top of the table with half the season played, the whole point of the pyramid is that it has successfully encouraged and facilitated new clubs from new areas of NI which never had Intermediate, never mind Senior, clubs before, while providing healthy competition via Promotion & Relegation, as individual clubs progressed or declined. Consequently the "attrition" rate of NI clubs going bust, before having to reform, or even disappearing entirely, is rather less than that in ROI.

P.S. I don't say any of that in order to "big up" the IL, never mind "do down" the LOI - the LOI has also many strengths from which the IL could learn. But the example of the IFA/IL in introducing, expanding and upgrading the pyramid over 20-odd years has undoubtedly been of great benefit in raising standards in the game in NI. And imo, were the FAI/LOI to do the same, it should prove equally beneficial south of the border.
I have glanced over most of these posts and before you shoot me down here is my tuppence worth.
A friend of mine who had a promenent role in the IFA once told me "it's run by protestants for protestants" and my friend was a... guess what? A protestant. In more recent years I will admit this has changed and improved.
Regarding Orán, Tiernan and Pat Fenlon. The top clubs are paying big money have to employ the best man for the job, including players and can't be seen to descriminate as they are in the spotlight. However drop to intermediate level and there are clubs who will not sign players from another religion. I will admit sometimes it's due to the location of the club and players of one religion won't feel comfortable in entering an area of another religion, but there are clubs who categorically will not sign players of another religion.
Piramed system can be exploited and doesn't always improve standards. That's why 4 clubs from Belfast (all within 3 radial miles from each other) with grounds meeting the NIFL spec are playing in the Ballymena and Provincial league. They see it as an easy way to the playoffs if they win the league provided they have declared their intention to be promoted.
The standard!! Up to very recently the Intermediate League which Strabane played in had 7 teams and they were not 7 good teams. Imagine playing in the league Cup, think about it!! A member of one of the 4 Belfast clubs above told me they would apply to this league as an easy way to promotion but travelling costs would be too high.
To introduce the piramed system in ROI would need to be carefully thought out to make sure all leagues have let's say 14 teams minimum, a club must play in their closest league demographicly and I sure there would be other requirements I haven't mentioned.
Fire away boys!!

[Kiki Balboa]

I have glanced over most of these posts and before you shoot me down here is my tuppence worth.
A friend of mine who had a promenent role in the IFA once told me "it's run by protestants for protestants" and my friend was a... guess what? A protestant. In more recent years I will admit this has changed and improved.


Would the IFA atill object to Northern Irish based teams joining the LOI (ala if Derry City happened in 2022)?

For example this: https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/belfast-celtic-league-ireland-move-16121869

I remember to rumours of the new Newry City exploring options to join LOI when their previous entity went bust.

[pineapple stu]

You acknowledge that it's very difficult - and then launch into a lecture that has absolutely nothing to do with how the task will be achieved. So I'll ask yet again - in the real world of how the FAI is currently structured and operates, please can you clarify how a pyramid system will be achieved ?
Again, I don't have to outline how it's to be achieved to be of the view that it's the best option with bigger-picture benefits for the game here, and better than the current plan of hoping to magic up clubs to jump into the third tier of a structure that has demonstrably failed (most recently and obviously by the fact that, in the year it's due to be launched, no-one has signed up). And I don't have to outline how it's to be achieved to suggest that the criticisms of a pyramid expressed here (Some people watch rugby, Salthill/Mervue might get promoted, the German fourth tier has problems apportioning TV rights and has big crowd differentials) don't stack up.

Because that's the only point I'm making. And your comment that "It's hard to achieve that" doesn't negate that point.

Could you get an external consultant in to advise it as per your post? (Another EYG speciality post focussing as much on personal abuse than the actual point, sadly; you really need to work on that) Maybe you could - but you've still got to get the FAI, to accept the document and work with it of course. Either way, it's a long way removed from your initial comment that "This is where it's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement. They should make more money available to Irish football - but only in return for a restructuring to align the whole system." And still not relevant to the basic point that a pyramid is the best system in general.

[EatYerGreens]

Again, I don't have to outline how it's to be achieved to be of the view that it's the best option with bigger-picture benefits for the game here, and better than the current plan of hoping to magic up clubs to jump into the third tier of a structure that has demonstrably failed (most recently and obviously by the fact that, in the year it's due to be launched, no-one has signed up). And I don't have to outline how it's to be achieved to suggest that the criticisms of a pyramid expressed here (Some people watch rugby, Salthill/Mervue might get promoted, the German fourth tier has problems apportioning TV rights and has big crowd differentials) don't stack up.

Because that's the only point I'm making. And your comment that "It's hard to achieve that" doesn't negate that point.

Could you get an external consultant in to advise it as per your post? (Another EYG speciality post focussing as much on personal abuse than the actual point, sadly; you really need to work on that) Maybe you could - but you've still got to get the FAI, to accept the document and work with it of course. Either way, it's a long way removed from your initial comment that "This is where it's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement. They should make more money available to Irish football - but only in return for a restructuring to align the whole system." And still not relevant to the basic point that a pyramid is the best system in general.

It would be ideal for Irish football if the international team won the World Cup. We therefore must win it. I acknowledge that it would be difficult to win, but that doesn't negate my point that it would be the ideal situation and in the best interests of the game here if we did win it. Therefore I don't care how unrealistic this demand is - we must win the World Cup.

Demanding that everyone do something difficult whilst refusing to engage with how that difficult thing could even be achieved is just barking at the moon stuff. The equivalent of the fans at every club who give their manager and players dog's abuse for not being significantly better than everyone else can clearlty see they actually are. Pure fantasy football stuff from you here Stu.

[pineapple stu]

A comparison which would only be relevant if every other country in Europe was also winning the World Cup about now.

But I think you know that.

[EatYerGreens]

A comparison which would only be relevant if every other country in Europe was also winning the World Cup about now.

But I think you know that.

Tell us how your grand plan is going to be achieved Stu? Tell us all how.

[pineapple stu]

I'm not sure how many times I've explained why I don't need to explain that to still form the view that a proper pyramid would be preferable to what we have now? But you just keep repeating the question, so it seems you're just on a wind-up now

So if no other sensible questions, I'll just move on if that's alright.

[culloty82]

To make a partial response, if the First Division becomes sufficiently stable that at first Kerry, and later any further clubs who may join, are able to survive and thrive so that we're back to the "old" LoI tally of 22, that will in turn encourage other teams to make applications, so that a third tier would become possible from the top down. The problem, as mentioned before, will be connecting that to intermediate and junior calendars, but that is rather putting the cart before the horse.

[EalingGreen]

I have glanced over most of these posts and before you shoot me down here is my tuppence worth.
A friend of mine who had a promenent role in the IFA once told me "it's run by protestants for protestants" and my friend was a... guess what? A protestant. In more recent years I will admit this has changed and improved.

Wouldn't argue with the first part, but the second part is key.



Regarding Orán, Tiernan and Pat Fenlon. The top clubs are paying big money have to employ the best man for the job, including players and can't be seen to descriminate as they are in the spotlight Pyramids go down as well as up and ideas and developments with them.




However drop to intermediate level and there are clubs who will not sign players from another religion. I will admit sometimes it's due to the location of the club and players of one religion won't feel comfortable in entering an area of another religion, but there are clubs who categorically will not sign players of another religion.
It is inevitable in a society like NI that there will be Prod teams in Prod areas and RC teams in RC areas, but I would make two points. First, these teams regularly play each other in their leagues, without any great problem - there are many other areas of life in NI where the two communities virtually never meet. Second, there are also mixed teams, with the situation gradually, if slowly, improving. (Compare that with eg GAA, which is pretty much exclusive to one community).



Piramed system can be exploited and doesn't always improve standards. That's why 4 clubs from Belfast (all within 3 radial miles from each other) with grounds meeting the NIFL spec are playing in the Ballymena and Provincial league. They see it as an easy way to the playoffs if they win the league provided they have declared their intention to be promoted.
The standard!! Up to very recently the Intermediate League which Strabane played in had 7 teams and they were not 7 good teams. Imagine playing in the league Cup, think about it!! A member of one of the 4 Belfast clubs above told me they would apply to this league as an easy way to promotion but travelling costs would be too high.
No system is ever perfect. But re those Belfast clubs gaming the system (and I know who you mean), eventually that should work itself out if/when those clubs do get the promotion they're angling for, while the pyramid system has also encouraged them to get their grounds up to spec. (Besides which from the religious side of things, those Belfast clubs playing in Ballymena district? That would never have happened a generation or two ago!)

As for the patchy standards, yeah, that is a problem, particularly in certain areas like NW Tyrone/South Derry etc, but just nip over the border from Strabane and see how eg the Ulster Senior League is doing! Meaning that in ROI you will also get areas where football is very strong and regional leagues will thrive, while in other areas the game is weak and regional leagues will struggle. But in the end, "a rising tide floats all boats".



To introduce the piramed system in ROI would need to be carefully thought out to make sure all leagues have let's say 14 teams minimum, a club must play in their closest league demographicly and I sure there would be other requirements I haven't mentioned.
I'm sure you would agree that notwithstanding the (valid) criticisms which you make about the NI pyramid above, it has still been a very good thing overall for the game in NI, and so should do the same for the game in ROI.

And whatever the other obstacles which the FAI would face in introducing their own pyramid, at least a religious divide wouldn't be one of them!