Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[2 Year Contract]

I think in Dublin it’s very difficult to attract fans to a brand new club. I think if you asked non LOI fans from Swords why they don’t support a team in the league, the main reason would be “that league is muck” etc. rather than “Bohs/Shels are too far away to go to every second Friday” and if that’s the attitude then supporting a brand new club at the very bottom of the lowest tier in the LOI is not going to entice very many to get on board. Even with Sporting Fingal’s rapid rise to the premier division/cup win/europe, their crowds were always shocking as there seemed to be an attitude of supporting them is embarrassing due to the lack of history (years in existence as opposed to trophies).

Compare that to Kerry, where there seemed to be a genuine appetite for LOI football in the county but also crucially the much more legitimate issue of no LOI side anywhere even relatively close. Hence the popularity of the club in year 1 despite losing nearly every week and playing in a poor ground

[legendz]

I think in Dublin it’s very difficult to attract fans to a brand new club. I think if you asked non LOI fans from Swords why they don’t support a team in the league, the main reason would be “that league is muck” etc. The youth leagues are a different dynamic. It is not easy to get into a local youth team. There is an awareness of the competitive level of LoI youth teams. If a club has 4 youth teams, that's 90 players and families with a connection with the club already.
On the mooted third tier, participation in the youth leagues should be a requirement.

[ontheotherhand]

I'm not a Rovers fans but I was quite interested in the seconds. My take is that it certainly worked for player development, but ultimately probably not much for Rovers themselves.

It would have over time. It wasn't around long enough unfortunately.

[Elfman]

The youth leagues are a different dynamic. It is not easy to get into a local youth team. There is an awareness of the competitive level of LoI youth teams. If a club has 4 youth teams, that's 90 players and families with a connection with the club already.
On the mooted third tier, participation in the youth leagues should be a requirement.

I agree with what you're saying there Legendz and it's now made me think of something else:

As much as I feel the national youth leagues have been brilliant for improving the LOI clubs relationship with their communities, I think it's telling that only regions have been allowed to enter underage teams. St. Kevin's would have entered an underage team but had to partner with Bohs due to the stipulation that only LOI teams could enter initially.

My guess is that St. Kevin's focus on youth meant that they had no interest in eventually becoming a fully fledged LOI team, and fair enough, but is there a danger that if you open it up to clubs (and not just regions) that some will sit at that underage level with no intention of ever fielding a senior team in the Premier Division?

[legendz]

My guess is that St. Kevin's focus on youth meant that they had no interest in eventually becoming a fully fledged LOI team, and fair enough, but is there a danger that if you open it up to clubs (and not just regions) that some will sit at that underage level with no intention of ever fielding a senior team in the Premier Division?
My own opinion is that the youth leagues should only be accepting clubs from non LoI areas unless there is a strategic benefit for additional youth teams. While Kerry were able to join the youth leagues as Kerry League, the FAI now require a Mayo League for example to form a club e.g. Mayo FC.
Mayo FC, CK and Kildare graduating from the U19 leagues to a third tier should be a natural progression. It's not a million miles away from being a possibility. As mentioned before, I think they'll need at least 5 second LoI teams for a national third tier to get off the ground.

[Buckett]

Is there any interest from either Peamount or DLR Waves to enter the men's LOI?
If both were to join Mayo, CK, Kildare and possibly Meath and Cavan-Monaghan, that would be the makings of a division

[pineapple stu]

DLR Waves is effectively the Women's team of UCD. They play in the Bowl and were formed from a merger of UCD and a Dún Laoghaire team I think

[legendz]

Would it be strategic for the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown and Fingal regions to enter teams in the youth leagues? With a focus on youth, they could focus on getting support from their local county councils for that reason.

[pineapple stu]

They already do. That's effectively the youth teams of UCD you're describing

[legendz]

They already do. That's effectively the youth teams of UCD you're describing
I know. Does UCD reduce the likelihood of a DLR LoI club?

[pineapple stu]

Not really - UCD is a DLR LoI club.

[legendz]

Not really - UCD is a DLR LoI club.If UL had entered the LoI instead of Treaty, I'm trying to imagine Limerick getting behind a third level institution instead.

[nigel-harps1954]

If UL had entered the LoI instead of Treaty, I'm trying to imagine Limerick getting behind a third level institution instead.

Cabinteely didn't exactly pull up any trees.

[Loifan_76]

Couple of quick clarifications re posts above:

-Peamount united have a mens LSL team already. Not just a women's club.
-DLR Waves are independent from UCD. The DLR-UCD merger was only active 2014-2018, with DLR Waves being an independent club before and afterwards. The Wikipedia page has a decent club history. They have played at Jackson Park as well as the Bowl.

[EatYerGreens]

Is there any interest from either Peamount or DLR Waves to enter the men's LOI?
If both were to join Mayo, CK, Kildare and possibly Meath and Cavan-Monaghan, that would be the makings of a division

In fairnness, the last thing the LOI needs is more Dublin teams. Maybe someone with a strong identity like Ballymun at Tier 3 would fly, but not in the top 2 tiers proper (though I appreciate that P&R means you could well see other clubs get there).

With attendances at the Dublin clubs bar UCD increaisdng a lot in recent years, it will become increasingly difficult for any new Dublin LOI teams to carve out ennough of a niche to sustain themselves in the top 2 tiers (unless they go down the route of a sugar daddy, which would just end up in boom and bust).

[Another Bohemia]

In fairnness, the last thing the LOI needs is more Dublin teams. Maybe someone with a strong identity like Ballymun at Tier 3 would fly, but not in the top 2 tiers proper (though I appreciate that P&R means you could well see other clubs get there).

With attendances at the Dublin clubs bar UCD increaisdng a lot in recent years, it will become increasingly difficult for any new Dublin LOI teams to carve out ennough of a niche to sustain themselves in the top 2 tiers (unless they go down the route of a sugar daddy, which would just end up in boom and bust).

Agree about Dublin and even places like Ballymun already have a decent amount of support for Bohs. Pie in the sky stuff I know but I think Kilkenny would be a great city to have and LOI club in again but it would need to really work within the community to ensure sustainability. Outside of that a real darkhorse would be somewhere like Portlaois. Good public transport links with train and bus, prison to lock up any hooligans and from what I remember it has a growing population. But if Kilkenny is pie in the sky then Portlaois is a triple decker wedding cake in the sky type thing.

[culloty82]

Fared very respectably in the FAI Intermediate and Senior Cups last year, though scaling up to the levels needed to field teams at all academy levels would be quite another matter of course. As has been said before, would make most sense for CK United to be based in Buckley Park, but seem to be very much a Carlow-dominated outfit.

[EalingGreen]

Have I got this right?

The FAI are looking to align the under-age football season with Senior football round a summer schedule, at least partly to provide a "feeder pool" of new clubs to the projected new Third Tier?

Are there any such plans for adult Junior/Intermediate football? Or are they being left to continue playing winter football, thereby effectively cutting off any progression from there to the Senior game?

[culloty82]

No, the aim is for all leagues, including junior and intermediate, to switch to the calendar year, but they're already getting negative pushback:

https://archive.is/svDIu

[EatYerGreens]

Fared very respectably in the FAI Intermediate and Senior Cups last year, though scaling up to the levels needed to field teams at all academy levels would be quite another matter of course. As has been said before, would make most sense for CK United to be based in Buckley Park, but seem to be very much a Carlow-dominated outfit.

Maybe I'm the only person, but I just don't see how CK United will ever attract much support ? It's a rubbish name and a disparate area to be trying to get people to identify with. I may well be proven wronng, but I just can't see a club of that name and purpose going anywhere.

[EalingGreen]

No, the aim is for all leagues, including junior and intermediate, to switch to the calendar year, but they're already getting negative pushback:

https://archive.is/svDIuAh right. From the link in Nigel's post #1065, I took "senior" to mean the LOI PD and FD, rather than actually meaning Adult football:
"ALL leagues at senior and underage level in Ireland will be aligned to the same calendar year schedule etc"

[nigel-harps1954]

Maybe I'm the only person, but I just don't see how CK United will ever attract much support ? It's a rubbish name and a disparate area to be trying to get people to identify with. I may well be proven wronng, but I just can't see a club of that name and purpose going anywhere.

It won't ever succeed in it's current guise. A proper Carlow FC or Kilkenny FC might work, but this CK United amalgamation, planning to play in the middle of nowhere, is destined to fail.

[legendz]

It won't ever succeed in it's current guise. A proper Carlow FC or Kilkenny FC might work, but this CK United amalgamation, planning to play in the middle of nowhere, is destined to fail.
Are LoI clubs to exist within county boundaries only? CK shouldn't fail as long as their youth teams are giving the best players in Carlow and Kilkenny an opportunity to play at a higher level.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Are LoI clubs to exist within county boundaries only? CK shouldn't fail as long as their youth teams are giving the best players in Carlow and Kilkenny an opportunity to play at a higher level.

In the case of new clubs aiming to be created outside of the major urban areas, pretty much yeah. You can't ignore the innate identification with county in Irish society, which is a negative at times, in that there are plenty of people who would never dream of supporting a football team outside of their county even if they were really just down the figurative road, but also a positive. A team that could claim to be representing a singular county could well have greater engagement than one that is trying to represent two. That's pretty much what Kerry FC is trying to do it seems, and I doubt they would be doing better if they were trying to be KL or KC.

[legendz]

In the case of new clubs aiming to be created outside of the major urban areas, pretty much yeah. You can't ignore the innate identification with county in Irish society, which is a negative at times, in that there are plenty of people who would never dream of supporting a football team outside of their county even if they were really just down the figurative road, but also a positive. A team that could claim to be representing a singular county could well have greater engagement than one that is trying to represent two. That's pretty much what Kerry FC is trying to do it seems, and I doubt they would be doing better if they were trying to be KL or KC.
Kerry has the population. There are counties in GAA who should amalgamate. New LoI clubs don't have to restrict themselves to county boundaries. If professional status is to be attainable for CK, I think they've taken the right approach. There has been a Cavan Monaghan partnership. Laois & Offaly might be another. Carlow Kilkenny and Cavan Monaghan are political constituencies. Laois Offaly is another. It's not just CK who have seen the need for an amalgamation.

[NeverFeltBetter]

GAA amalgamation, on a senior level anyway, is something I would deem very unlikely to ever happen. I know that there are cases of hurling clubs in football-heavy counties playing in another county's structures and the like, but a full on "Carlow/Kilkenny" senior football team would end up being treated like a scandal by the perpetually outraged GAA community, not a practical solution.

CK could certainly be a good acid test, but my point is that something like Kilkenny FC and Carlow FC might well have greater engagement from their respective areas than CK has trying to attract from both. It might be worth considering some kind of non-geographical branding in the future for them and any such entities if they are trying to move beyond typical Irish parochialism.

I don't think there being political constituencies that consist of two counties is really a point in favour, because there are endless complaints about such boundaries from TD's, councillors and parts of the electorate, and in such places, where parties run more than one candidate, they tend to make sure it's one from one county and one from another to maximise appeal. I'm just thinking of the negative commentary on the proposed Wicklow/Wexford constituency, as an example: https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklow/news/wicklow-td-says-decision-to-split-county-a-hatchet-job-to-accommodate-wexford/a1746346022.html

[legendz]

GAA amalgamation, on a senior level anyway, is something I would deem very unlikely to ever happen. I know that there are cases of hurling clubs in football-heavy counties playing in another county's structures and the like, but a full on "Carlow/Kilkenny" senior football team would end up being treated like a scandal by the perpetually outraged GAA community, not a practical solution.

CK could certainly be a good acid test, but my point is that something like Kilkenny FC and Carlow FC might well have greater engagement from their respective areas than CK has trying to attract from both. It might be worth considering some kind of non-geographical branding in the future for them and any such entities if they are trying to move beyond typical Irish parochialism.

I don't think there being political constituencies that consist of two counties is really a point in favour, because there are endless complaints about such boundaries from TD's, councillors and parts of the electorate, and in such places, where parties run more than one candidate, they tend to make sure it's one from one county and one from another to maximise appeal. I'm just thinking of the negative commentary on the proposed Wicklow/Wexford constituency, as an example: https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklow/news/wicklow-td-says-decision-to-split-county-a-hatchet-job-to-accommodate-wexford/a1746346022.html

Carlow and Kilkenny have shared local media. Some counties will be more suited for an LoI club partnership than others. Westmeath possibly would suit an Athlone - Mullingar rivalry, East versus West.

[EatYerGreens]

Are LoI clubs to exist within county boundaries only? CK shouldn't fail as long as their youth teams are giving the best players in Carlow and Kilkenny an opportunity to play at a higher level.

It's not about county boundaries. It's about the fact they've a terrible name that will appeal to few people, and they're also planning to play their matches in the worng place.

[EatYerGreens]

In the case of new clubs aiming to be created outside of the major urban areas, pretty much yeah. You can't ignore the innate identification with county in Irish society, which is a negative at times, in that there are plenty of people who would never dream of supporting a football team outside of their county even if they were really just down the figurative road, but also a positive. A team that could claim to be representing a singular county could well have greater engagement than one that is trying to represent two. That's pretty much what Kerry FC is trying to do it seems, and I doubt they would be doing better if they were trying to be KL or KC.

I think the whole coounty loyalty thing in sporrt is often over-blown i Ireland, and that people are capable of thinking beyond it in sports other than GAA .

There are a lot of LOI fans who support teams in a different county : Meath supporters for Drogheda and Bohs ; Kildare fans fof Rovers and Pats ; Leitrim, Mayo and Roscommon support for Sligo ; Tyrone support for Harps ; Donegal supprt for Derry etc etc

Also - when you have Irish people in huge numbers supporting 'their' team in a completely different country, supporting one down the road from them is hardly a big deal even if they are in a different county.

Irsih people are now more mobile within the country than at any time in history (at least since the Famine anyway), and 10% of the population wasn't born here so has no innate sense of county identitiy either. Outside of GAA and a few jokes in the pub, I genuinely think people are increasingly less belligerent about country identity and it stopping who they could back in oither sports.

[joey B]

On Ck United was it that hard to base it in one of the 2 large towns of nearly 30k each? One of them has a large University campus and the other has a history of LOI football,seems like they’re playing from behind from the start with the choice of home ground….

[legendz]

It's not about county boundaries. It's about the fact they've a terrible name that will appeal to few people, and they're also planning to play their matches in the worng place.

What name do you want them to have? CK Leinster? They had their reasons for moving away from "Carlow Kilkenny FC".

[Another Bohemia]

What name do you want them to have? CK Leinster? They had their reasons for moving away from "Carlow Kilkenny FC".

I think they should have looked at going the way Treaty did. Name it after something significant from the region. Not necessarily a historical event but it could be that, a historical figure, geographical feature that is related to both like one of the 3 sisters. CK United just sounds like a knockoff underpants brand

[NeverFeltBetter]

In fairness, I wouldn't say that's been a great benefit to Treaty, anytime the name is discussed it's generally in negative terms, and there were rumours after the recent takeover that a change back to some form of "Limerick" was being actively considered. But it might make more sense for something like CK I suppose, where it isn't a weird way to differentiate yourself from a previous club.

[Another Bohemia]

In fairness, I wouldn't say that's been a great benefit to Treaty, anytime the name is discussed it's generally in negative terms, and there were rumours after the recent takeover that a change back to some form of "Limerick" was being actively considered. But it might make more sense for something like CK I suppose, where it isn't a weird way to differentiate yourself from a previous club.

Yeah so it didn't work for Treaty and i agree with them changing their name to Limerick United or whatever it may end up being but I think the reasoning behind the name was good and it gave a unique and novel name with a nod to the city. I think that's the approach that should be taken if they want the Cavan/Monaghan Carlow/Kildare amalgamations in the league. It's something American sports do well. 49ers named after the people who followed the gold rush to the city, Utah Jazz were originally from New Orleans and named after the music that originated from the city (franchising of the teams has obviously ruined this connection). There are plenty more as well. It would be a different way to tie the team to the area and get the local backing while still keeping the bigger catchment area

[sbgawa]

Cavan scroungers

[Another Bohemia]

Cavan scroungers
The dodgers, based on the Cavan tradition of dodging rounds

[EalingGreen]

I think the whole coounty loyalty thing in sporrt is often over-blown i Ireland, and that people are capable of thinking beyond it in sports other than GAA .

There are a lot of LOI fans who support teams in a different county : Meath supporters for Drogheda and Bohs ; Kildare fans fof Rovers and Pats ; Leitrim, Mayo and Roscommon support for Sligo ; Tyrone support for Harps ; Donegal supprt for Derry etc etc

Also - when you have Irish people in huge numbers supporting 'their' team in a completely different country, supporting one down the road from them is hardly a big deal even if they are in a different county.

Irsih people are now more mobile within the country than at any time in history (at least since the Famine anyway), and 10% of the population wasn't born here so has no innate sense of county identitiy either. Outside of GAA and a few jokes in the pub, I genuinely think people are increasingly less belligerent about country identity and it stopping who they could back in oither sports.Can't claim to be familiar with the situation in ROI, but other than your "10% percent" of the resident population born outside Ireland (actually 20% as per the 2022 Census), I'd say that that all sounds right.

And if it's worth anything by way of comparison, I'd say county affiliations have little or no impact on NI football either. (Unless it's Co. Glasgow, Co.Liverpool or Co.Manchester :))

Which is why I don't get this fixation with expanding Senior football on County lines. Fair enough, Kerry have been successful so far, but it's still not yet certain that the seed has taken firm root, or could withstand eg relegation to the 3rd tier, or another couple of years of drought, points-wise. And even if they should succeed, might they not be an outlier?

Besides which, there aren't that many other candidate counties amongst the 26 which are not already served by LOI football, either internally or neighbouring counties - enough to sustain a genuine 3rd tier in a pyramid stretching from Junior, through Intermediate, up to Senior level?

I know the very real barriers to existing Intermediate clubs in reasonably-sized* towns to rise to Senior football have been widely discussed here in the past, but surely to goodness they should be able to offer greater opportunity for organic growth than a few made-up clubs which are just as likely to go the way of eg Kildare or Fingal before them, as thrive like it is hoped Kerry will.

* - I say "reasonably-sized", but would note that in the IL, Loughgall FC, operating from a village of fewer than 400 people, but founded in 1967 and heavily community-based, are doing ok in in the Premiership (7th out of 12, 31 points from 27 games, before crowds averaging 867 per match). Of course it won't last, but even when they eventually do go down, there are plenty of bigger clubs ready to take their place eg Bangor or Portadown.

[nigel-harps1954]

Kerry has the population. There are counties in GAA who should amalgamate. New LoI clubs don't have to restrict themselves to county boundaries. If professional status is to be attainable for CK, I think they've taken the right approach. There has been a Cavan Monaghan partnership. Laois & Offaly might be another. Carlow Kilkenny and Cavan Monaghan are political constituencies. Laois Offaly is another. It's not just CK who have seen the need for an amalgamation.

CK absolutely have not taken the right approach. They haven't really publicly consulted anyone, have gone off on their own to move to Tullow, a town smaller than Ballybofey in the north of Carlow that's not along the train route, it's poorly supported by public transport, and it's just so far out of the way it's beyond a brutal choice of home patch.

Aside from that, it's hardly overly accessible to the people of Kilkenny either. There's any number of places between Carlow and Kilkenny in which they could have based themselves, got involved with all the junior clubs, linked up with the Carlow and Kilkenny leagues, and really grown something for everyone. Instead, they've done much of the opposite, and pretty much doomed themselves before they even start.

Amalgamation of areas is grand if it's done right. Cavan/Monaghan example was another really poor choice based off nothing other than "at least they done it". It was a dreadful experiment, and the only half decent player in the partnership, Monaghan United, quickly jumped ship.

[EalingGreen]

Amalgamation of areas is grand if it's done right. When has it been "done right"? (Genuine question)

[nigel-harps1954]

When has it been "done right"? (Genuine question)

Ballybofey and Stranorlar..:star:

[EalingGreen]

Ballybofey and Stranorlar..:star:Wahey! :cool:

[sbgawa]

Derry and Londonderry ;)

[EatYerGreens]

What name do you want them to have? CK Leinster? They had their reasons for moving away from "Carlow Kilkenny FC".

You are of course right. The only possible name a team from those counties could have is 'CK United'. No other names could ever exist or be thought of :D

You can just hear their legions of fans chanting "CK! CK!" in their thousands at the Tullow Megadrome as the team enters the pitch. #Believe

[culloty82]

On the county point, Wexford are undoubtedly the most successful modern example, in that they've endured in the League for sixteen seasons now (even if they've only been promoted once in that time), and adopting the GAA colours appears to have been embraced by their supporters. An interesting case would be Mayo, in that on their own, Castlebar and Westport would both be decent Connacht League outfits under the proposed system, though probably no further, yet a united Mayo team would be capable of attracting sizeable First Division attendances.

[culloty82]

You are of course right. The only possible name a team from those counties could have is 'CK United'. No other names could ever exist or be thought of :D

You can just hear their legions of fans chanting "CK! CK!" in their thousands at the Tullow Megadrome as the team enters the pitch. #Believe

In Norman times, the area was known as "Ossory" and indeed "Ormond", but can't imagine either catching on!

[EalingGreen]

Derry and Londonderry ;)Sorry, Institute FC and who else? :cool:

[EatYerGreens]

On the county point, Wexford are undoubtedly the most successful modern example, in that they've endured in the League for sixteen seasons now (even if they've only been promoted once in that time), and adopting the GAA colours appears to have been embraced by their supporters. An interesting case would be Mayo, in that on their own, Castlebar and Westport would both be decent Connacht League outfits under the proposed system, though probably no further, yet a united Mayo team would be capable of attracting sizeable First Division attendances.

I still think there's an opportunity for a South Park-themed 'Kill Kenny FC'. Or to give it its full name 'OMGY Kill Kenny FC'.

[kksaints]

CK absolutely have not taken the right approach. They haven't really publicly consulted anyone, have gone off on their own to move to Tullow, a town smaller than Ballybofey in the north of Carlow that's not along the train route, it's poorly supported by public transport, and it's just so far out of the way it's beyond a brutal choice of home patch.

Aside from that, it's hardly overly accessible to the people of Kilkenny either. There's any number of places between Carlow and Kilkenny in which they could have based themselves, got involved with all the junior clubs, linked up with the Carlow and Kilkenny leagues, and really grown something for everyone. Instead, they've done much of the opposite, and pretty much doomed themselves before they even start.

Amalgamation of areas is grand if it's done right. Cavan/Monaghan example was another really poor choice based off nothing other than "at least they done it". It was a dreadful experiment, and the only half decent player in the partnership, Monaghan United, quickly jumped ship.

Interestingly CK United have a post on their Instagram from a week ago thanking some contractors for working on their dugouts to bring the Watershed up to LOI Stadium standard. They could be playing matches in the Watershed in Kilkenny which makes much more sense than Tullow. Real shame they can't use Buckley Park after Castlewarren Celtic cleaned it up last year.

[kksaints]

You are of course right. The only possible name a team from those counties could have is 'CK United'. No other names could ever exist or be thought of :D

You can just hear their legions of fans chanting "CK! CK!" in their thousands at the Tullow Megadrome as the team enters the pitch. #Believe

It's not easy to think of a name suitable to both counties that isn't the standard Carlow-Kilkenny United. The joint radio station is called KCLR and bar the Dail area there is very little joined between the two counties.

[nigel-harps1954]

Interestingly CK United have a post on their Instagram from a week ago thanking some contractors for working on their dugouts to bring the Watershed up to LOI Stadium standard. They could be playing matches in the Watershed in Kilkenny which makes much more sense than Tullow. Real shame they can't use Buckley Park after Castlewarren Celtic cleaned it up last year.

Been a while since I was down there, but isn't the Watershed just a running track with no spectator facilities at all?