Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II [Archive] - Page 14

EatYerGreens

14/12/2022, 3:07 PM

I'm not sure how many times I've explained why I don't need to explain that to still form the view that a proper pyramid would be preferable to what we have now? But you just keep repeating the question, so it seems you're just on a wind-up now

So if no other sensible questions, I'll just move on if that's alright.

You've spent forever on here hectoring everyone that there is no reason why Ireland can't have a pyramid. That it isn't exceptional. That everywhere else has one, so no reason why we can't either.

Then when it's ponted out to you that actually Ireland IS exceptional - in terms of the structural and organisational barriers it faces which block things like a pyramid, and which therefore necessitate particular solutions - you say you don't care, and there must be a pyramid anyway. And you rubbish anyone else's proposals for how those barriers could be circumnavigated, whilst point-blank refusing to say how else it could be done.

Corporate dysfunction in football governance is surely not unique to Ireland. But I don't recal any other FA across Europe facing the same level of dysfunction that the FAI has in recent years (?). And Ireland's structures and dysfunctionality are at least a part contributor to the fact we don't and can't have a pyramid when everyone else does - particularly when a league here has taken advantage of that dysfunctionality to reverse a fundamental building block towards a pyramid here (i.e. by undoing an alignment of seasons).

So do you now finally accept that there ARE reasons which make Ireland diferent to everywhere else when it comes to implementing a pyramid ? The obvious one being that the current structures won't vote one through ?

pineapple stu

14/12/2022, 4:11 PM

Still guff EYG.

None of that argues against my point that a pyramid is a better system than magicking clubs out of thin air, and that the counter points (including your own quietly-dropped one that people watch rugby) don't stack up.

Yes, it's hard. Stupidly hard, given how simple a concept it is. And I've said that from the off. That's not an argument against it though, much and all as you seem to like to think it is.

EalingGreen

14/12/2022, 4:52 PM

You've spent forever on here hectoring everyone that there is no reason why Ireland can't have a pyramid.
There are many reasons why ROI cannot have a pyramid. It's just that none of them is a good one.

That it isn't exceptional.Maybe not uniquely so, but pretty exceptional in that many of the recent moves the FAI has made have actually driven it further away from a possible pyramid, not closer eg Summer/Winter split; the "A" League, allowing "francjhise" clubs etc.

Corporate dysfunction in football governance is surely not unique to Ireland. But I don't recal any other FA across Europe facing the same level of dysfunction that the FAI has in recent years (?).
"Please Miss, me Miss, I think I know that one!"

Thirty years ago, the IFA was in an even worse position than the FAI. That is, we had just the same small-minded, petty politics (small "p"), vested interests and personality clashes which have long infexted the FAI. And if we didnt always have quite such a ganch as Delaney in charge (emphasise the "quite"), neither has the FAI had to operate in a society which was riven from top to bottom by decades of severe sectarian strife, with a completely paralysed political system (large "p"), all in a place with a much smaller and less affluent population.

Nor did we have more recent success for the NT on the field, or even a decent stadium to attract large crowds and generate the revenue which the AVIVA does. (On the contrary, our team was sh1t and we were tied into Windsor under a contract which the Mafia would have been proud to negotiate)

Yet somehow or other, we have managed to turn that sh1t-show round, even if modestly and imperfectly, in terms of developing our own pyramid. Like everyome else has..

So do you now finally accept that there ARE reasons which make Ireland diferent to everywhere else when it comes to implementing a pyramid ? The obvious one being that the current structures won't vote one through ?Sorry to be repetitive, or appear "superior", but the IFA sturcture was very similar to that of the FAI, and equally reactionary. Yet somehow or other, including with the assistance of our funders at the Sports Council/Stormont etc, we managed to get the structure reformed to something a bit more fit-for-purpose.

Shinkicker

14/12/2022, 5:01 PM

Wouldn't argue with the first part, but the second part is key.

Pyramids go down as well as up and ideas and developments with them.

It is inevitable in a society like NI that there will be Prod teams in Prod areas and RC teams in RC areas, but I would make two points. First, these teams regularly play each other in their leagues, without any great problem - there are many other areas of life in NI where the two communities virtually never meet. Second, there are also mixed teams, with the situation gradually, if slowly, improving. (Compare that with eg GAA, which is pretty much exclusive to one community).

No system is ever perfect. But re those Belfast clubs gaming the system (and I know who you mean), eventually that should work itself out if/when those clubs do get the promotion they're angling for, while the pyramid system has also encouraged them to get their grounds up to spec. (Besides which from the religious side of things, those Belfast clubs playing in Ballymena district? That would never have happened a generation or two ago!)

As for the patchy standards, yeah, that is a problem, particularly in certain areas like NW Tyrone/South Derry etc, but just nip over the border from Strabane and see how eg the Ulster Senior League is doing! Meaning that in ROI you will also get areas where football is very strong and regional leagues will thrive, while in other areas the game is weak and regional leagues will struggle. But in the end, "a rising tide floats all boats".

I'm sure you would agree that notwithstanding the (valid) criticisms which you make about the NI pyramid above, it has still been a very good thing overall for the game in NI, and so should do the same for the game in ROI.

And whatever the other obstacles which the FAI would face in introducing their own pyramid, at least a religious divide wouldn't be one of them!
Please believe me when I say I am not criticising anything about the system in NI, I played in it for years and loved it. I am only pointing out what I saw over the years. What I am really saying is that it won't be a silver bullet for the ROI. (pardon the pun).
However, I would say the standard of LOI top division is better than the IL top division.

EatYerGreens

14/12/2022, 6:40 PM

Still guff EYG.

None of that argues against my point that a pyramid is a better system than magicking clubs out of thin air, and that the counter points (including your own quietly-dropped one that people watch rugby) don't stack up.

I've not argued against a pyramid, and I agree that it makes sense conceptually. What I've doen is point out the many difficulties with it in Ireland. Because I live in the real world, which means I understand that you can't just daydream this stuff into existence in the face of cold, hard reality. You're welcome to join me there some time :)

Yes, it's hard. Stupidly hard, given how simple a concept it is. And I've said that from the off. That's not an argument against it though, much and all as you seem to like to think it is.

I guess this is as close as we'll get to an admisison from you that your constant claim there is no exceptionalism behind why Ireland doesn't have a pyramid is in fact wrong in the clear daylight of reality. We should probably be grateful to take what we can in this re a 'blood from stone' analogy. Small mercies and all that.

sbgawa

14/12/2022, 7:34 PM

David BOHie

14/12/2022, 7:38 PM

Getting a pyramid going in ireland is simple and could be achieved overnight by the FAI.
The Fai draw up the new leagues and structures and tell the leagues and the clubs to fall in line or their leagues will be excluded from FAI , players not eligible for representative teams etc etc etc. The local blazers will be upset but so be it. It will NEVER happen without leadership from FAI.

And then they all join the AUL or some other breakaway league that plays winter football. What you end up with is a three tier LOI and an even more fragmented sport in this country.

EatYerGreens

14/12/2022, 8:25 PM

And then they all join the AUL or some other breakaway league that plays winter football. What you end up with is a three tier LOI and an even more fragmented sport in this country.

Or they call an EGM and have the decision stopped, those behind it removed etc etc. Because the FAI is ultimately run by a broad group of vested interests within the game, of which the LOI is only one small part.

sbgawa

14/12/2022, 8:57 PM

The board now has majority independent control, if they wanted to push it through they could.
As regards clubs going off and joining other leagues elite clubs that you would want in a pyramid wont do that anyway as they want to have a chance at FAI cups , representative sides etc.
Also if the FAI withdraw supports from those leagues Refs ...Insurance etc, Government funding etc etc the Blazers will buckle...
Remember its the blazers that are the problem the players just want to play

EalingGreen

15/12/2022, 8:53 PM

Corporate dysfunction in football governance is surely not unique to Ireland. But I don't recal any other FA across Europe facing the same level of dysfunction that the FAI has in recent years (?). I dont know a great deal about dysfuntion in European football either, but I do know that there are several (many?) Associations which could easily outdo the FAI for dodgy dealing.

Take Croatia, for example, where their fans disrupted a game at the 2016 Euro's in France, in an attempt to get the game abandoned:
WHY DID IT HAPPEN?
In the backdrop to Euro 2016, a large number of supporters had become alienated from the Croatian National team, some gave up on it completely. The reason stemmed from the corruption that involved the football federation�s vice-president Zdravko Mamic....
Read more at: https://www.foottheball.com/uefa-euro/euro-iconic-moments-croatia-fans-disrupt-euro-2016-game-against-czech-republic-flares-protest-fight/

While Bulgarian football has been completely infiltrated, even taken over in places, by organised crime, eg:
"Alongside all the corruption, stuttering development of coaching methods and the suffering of youth football because of it, Bulgaria�s taken a deep dive into the football abyss, which is sad for any fan over here because it�s a football-crazy nation."
https://breakingthelines.com/historical/the-fall-of-bulgarian-football-a-sad-decline-or-corrupted-farce/

While Greece could probably give lessons in dysfunction to both of them:
A scathing media report in Greece has alleged that football there is 'governed by people who have no limits'. It goes on to say: 'Laws do not exist, the Statute is being constantly violated, so do HFF (EPO) Regulations.'
'In the past 8 months, it has been proven beyond any doubt that the current HFF (EPO) Administration has no second thoughts when it comes to violating the Statute and HFF (EPO) Regulations and abuse its power, in order to serve specific interests of those who truly and unlawfully govern Greek football,' the report adds.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10200981/Greek-football-dragged-corruption-scandal-judges-car-smashed-metal-bar.html

While their Turkish neighbours aren't far behind:
https://www.declanhill.com/happening-greek-turkish-football-systems-corruption/

Closer to home - and without the violence or corruption, I should add - the FA was for decades entirely unfit for purpose (some would argue it still is!). They were run by the FA Council, which had 90-odd Blazers, drawn eg from the Counties, the Armed Forces, Oxford & Cambridge Universities and even the Commonwealth! As such, they were entirely unreceptive to new ideas, while perpetually at daggers drawn with the Football League etc.
Anyhow, the FAs Executive eventually managed to wrest control, aided (and sometimes ordered) by the Sports Council and government ministers etc, who insisted on governance reform.

While even closer to home, the IFA was long stymied by a core of backwoodsmen on out Council, who were resistant eg to Sunday football, or funding the womens' game etc. But again, aided by a hard-balled CEO brought in from England(!), and pressure from the Sports Council and Stormont etc, they were forced to reform their corporate governance completely eg a brand new Board, half of whom were from outside football and representative of women, minorities and other groups etc.

Which is not to say that the IFA is now wonderful (certainly isn't lol), but change can happen, even if slowly and imperfectly. And with the FAI being entirely dependant on the Government to service their debt, now is surely the time for the Executive to get their act together and tell the Blazers that the party is over, and if they don't shift over and let the professionals take charge, then the whole show could go under.

EatYerGreens

15/12/2022, 9:35 PM

I dont know a great deal about dysfuntion in European football either, but I do know that there are several (many?) Associations which could easily outdo the FAI for dodgy dealing.

Take Croatia, for example, where their fans disrupted a game at the 2016 Euro's in France, in an attempt to get the game abandoned:
WHY DID IT HAPPEN?
In the backdrop to Euro 2016, a large number of supporters had become alienated from the Croatian National team, some gave up on it completely. The reason stemmed from the corruption that involved the football federation�s vice-president Zdravko Mamic....
Read more at: https://www.foottheball.com/uefa-euro/euro-iconic-moments-croatia-fans-disrupt-euro-2016-game-against-czech-republic-flares-protest-fight/

While Bulgarian football has been completely infiltrated, even taken over in places, by organised crime, eg:
"Alongside all the corruption, stuttering development of coaching methods and the suffering of youth football because of it, Bulgaria�s taken a deep dive into the football abyss, which is sad for any fan over here because it�s a football-crazy nation."
https://breakingthelines.com/historical/the-fall-of-bulgarian-football-a-sad-decline-or-corrupted-farce/

While Greece could probably give lessons in dysfunction to both of them:
A scathing media report in Greece has alleged that football there is 'governed by people who have no limits'. It goes on to say: 'Laws do not exist, the Statute is being constantly violated, so do HFF (EPO) Regulations.'
'In the past 8 months, it has been proven beyond any doubt that the current HFF (EPO) Administration has no second thoughts when it comes to violating the Statute and HFF (EPO) Regulations and abuse its power, in order to serve specific interests of those who truly and unlawfully govern Greek football,' the report adds.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10200981/Greek-football-dragged-corruption-scandal-judges-car-smashed-metal-bar.html

While their Turkish neighbours aren't far behind:
https://www.declanhill.com/happening-greek-turkish-football-systems-corruption/

Closer to home - and without the violence or corruption, I should add - the FA was for decades entirely unfit for purpose (some would argue it still is!). They were run by the FA Council, which had 90-odd Blazers, drawn eg from the Counties, the Armed Forces, Oxford & Cambridge Universities and even the Commonwealth! As such, they were entirely unreceptive to new ideas, while perpetually at daggers drawn with the Football League etc.
Anyhow, the FAs Executive eventually managed to wrest control, aided (and sometimes ordered) by the Sports Council and government ministers etc, who insisted on governance reform.

Out of curiousity - how many of those involved the association being on the verge of bankruptcy, UEFA intervention, and the Association's Chief Executive facing criminal allegations/charges ?

While even closer to home, the IFA was long stymied by a core of backwoodsmen on out Council, who were resistant eg to Sunday football, or funding the womens' game etc. But again, aided by a hard-balled CEO brought in from England(!), and pressure from the Sports Council and Stormont etc, they were forced to reform their corporate governance completely eg a brand new Board, half of whom were from outside football and representative of women, minorities and other groups etc.

Which is not to say that the IFA is now wonderful (certainly isn't lol), but change can happen, even if slowly and imperfectly. And with the FAI being entirely dependant on the Government to service their debt, now is surely the time for the Executive to get their act together and tell the Blazers that the party is over, and if they don't shift over and let the professionals take charge, then the whole show could go under.

Don't tell Pineaple Stu ! He'll be straight on the phone to UEFA alleging political interference :D

EalingGreen

15/12/2022, 10:10 PM

Out of curiousity - how many of those involved the association being on the verge of bankruptcy, UEFA intervention, and the Association's Chief Executive facing criminal allegations/charges ?
Sorry, but all that is decidedly small time compared with what goes on elsewhere, eg this report from January 2021:
A bullet for the president: gangs, corruption and murder in Bulgarian football
"One spring Monday morning, Lokomotiv Plovdiv president, Alexander Tasev, like most football bosses around Europe, sat in his expensive car about to head off to work. Seconds later he was shot dead by someone in a passing car, two bullets piercing his head.
Since that day in May 2007, at least 12 more football bosses have been killed in the Balkan country. Tasev was the third Lokomotiv president to be killed in just two years."
https://footballpink.net/2018-10-25-a-bullet-for-the-president-gangs-corruption-and-murder-in-bulgarian-football/

Don't tell Pineaple Stu ! He'll be straight on the phone to UEFA alleging political interference :DFIFA only prohibits unwanted political interference/imstruction in football.

In other words, FIFA will not object so long as the Association in question accepts the intervention/instruction, even if that "acceptance" is only on pain of getting government funding cut off if it doesn't.

EatYerGreens

15/12/2022, 11:00 PM

FIFA only prohibits unwanted political interference/imstruction in football.

In other words, FIFA will not object so long as the Association in question accepts the intervention/instruction, even if that "acceptance" is only on pain of getting government funding cut off if it doesn't.

Which is precisely what I was trying to get Pineapple Stu to understand and accept (to no avail).

pineapple stu

16/12/2022, 9:45 AM

Nope - your original suggestion was that "This is where it's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement". The very word "force" implies unwanted instruction, otherwise the FAI would just do it itself.

You then elaborated to bring in an external consultant's report with a convenient answer which the FAI, unable to implement because of internal politics, would then ask the Government to force it to implement - but didn't really look at how the FAI, blocked by factions who don't want to amend the league structure, would vote to adopt a report which makes that same recommendation. Or why the Government - who didn't act as Genesis was repeatedly unimplemented, would be interested over something as trivial as this. Or indeed, why all this is relevant in the first place given I've repeatedly noted I don't need to outline how exactly a change should be brought about to form the view that it's the right change, given it's effective throughout the continent.

Other than that though...

GUFCghost

16/12/2022, 2:37 PM

culloty82

16/12/2022, 3:06 PM

Ironically, the GAA has a fully integrated national pyramid, both in terms of the National Leagues in both codes, the five tiers in the hurling Championship, and the club championships in each county.

legendz

16/12/2022, 11:25 PM

There is no one size fits all. Clubs are known to represent a city/town, part of a city/town or a region.
Tralee has a population of 25,000. Kerry has a population of 150,000. Kerry FC is the fruition of Kerry League building up through the youth leagues. A broader catchment area can potentially help a professional setup being more attainable. Waterford were building links with neighbouring regions a few years back.
For those interested in a pyramid, district leagues feeding into regional leagues is the piece to sort first. Noone has of yet given an example of a club knocking on the door to join the LoI. The A Championship had clubs e.g. Tralee, Tullamore, Castlebar and Fanad. The youth leagues have built up on Kerry, Mayo, Kildare, Cavan Monaghan and Carlow Kilkenny. Clubs were burnt by the A Championship experience.

sidewayspasser

17/12/2022, 10:42 AM

I think one of the reasons we don't have a pyramid is the GAA mindset that affects all Irish sport. Whilst the type of hardcore football fan that browses here might not be influenced by GAA, most Irish people certainly are. That's why we have clubs like Galway United, Treaty, Wexford, nearly any club outside of the garrison towns/ dublin & cork. Galway United isn't like a football club in England, it's a lot more like the county board. Local clubs in Galway don't want to compete with United, except for the obvious two, who were the subject of scorn from other Galway clubs. This is why clubs like Kerry FC and CK United are popping up. County board clubs I call 'em.

There's no concept of a link between junior and intermediate because of this GAA mindset. IMO that needs to change. Intermediate football needs to be totally redesigned and then linked to the LOI. I think it might be possible to revive the A-Championship with these new county board clubs and LOI reserve teams whilst reforming the intermediate leagues, and then simply link the two systems once it's all been put together.

Of course, the intermediate clubs need to want to change. If they don't, what's the point in forcing them? We might as well just surrender to the franchise model. As long as we have some kind of third tier for academy graduates who aren't ready for first team football
I think you have a point there. When I came here several years ago (from a country that has a pyramid), this whole concept of junior, intermediate and senior football without any links between them seemed very strange to me. Before I came here, I would have understood "junior football" as underage football, and any adult teams/leagues would be "senior".

Does this concept come from a GAA mindset? Could be. But I think it is very dysfunctional and needs a complete overhaul, and maybe a reform of the intermediate leagues would be a starting point. But how can you create an appetite for such a reform? Finding the carrot that you can offer to intermediate clubs and leagues could be key here.

pineapple stu

17/12/2022, 11:35 AM

There is junior/intermediate/senior in England as well btw, so probably the idea came from there, given the close connections between the two countries. I think intermediate starts around level 11. I'm not sure what the difference is - I think stuff like having to pay in to games is one that is required at senior level.

(They also have Sunday league which is separate again and is more social football)

legendz

17/12/2022, 11:42 PM

But I think it is very dysfunctional and needs a complete overhaul, and maybe a reform of the intermediate leagues would be a starting point. But how can you create an appetite for such a reform? Finding the carrot that you can offer to intermediate clubs and leagues could be key here.
A solution would be 3 or 4 district leagues having a shared higher tier. The district leagues would all have to be represented on the regional league committee.

EalingGreen

19/12/2022, 12:53 PM

Just read a piece on Chinese football in The Athletic (paywall), analysing why they're so crap (won 1 of their 10 WCQ's for Qatar, only ever qualified in 2002, losing all 3 games v Brazil, Turkey & Costa Rica without scoring etc).

This comment from a Western observer caught my eye
�China is essentially a top down country. Everything comes down from the No 1 man at the top. When it comes to football, though, you need grassroots in place. You need that pyramid and to build up from the bottom. China doesn�t have that at all. The domestic game here was on a bad trajectory before COVID. Things have worsened since then.�

For President Xi read President Delaney?

P.S. I'm not seriously comparing football in ROI with that in ROC btw.

Kiki Balboa

20/12/2022, 4:52 PM

Different Sport, but All Ireland Rugby have a pretty big Pyramid of 5 Divsions of 10 teams all around Ireland.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/all-ireland-leagues-old/men/league-tables/

EalingGreen

20/12/2022, 6:10 PM

Different Sport, but All Ireland Rugby have a pretty big Pyramid of 5 Divsions of 10 teams all around Ireland.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/all-ireland-leagues-old/men/league-tables/"Pretty big"?

OK, they have the four Provinces, but their club pyramid still only adds up to 50 clubs over five tiers/divisions, and that for the whole of Ireland.

Whereas the NI football pyramid alone has 7 tiers, 11 divisions and 140 clubs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system

culloty82

20/12/2022, 6:11 PM

Which also feeds into the provincial leagues - the round-robin winner is automatically promoted, and the runner-up goes into play-offs.

Kiki Balboa

20/12/2022, 8:27 PM

"Pretty big"?

OK, they have the four Provinces, but their club pyramid still only adds up to 50 clubs over five tiers/divisions, and that for the whole of Ireland.

Whereas the NI football pyramid alone has 7 tiers, 11 divisions and 140 clubs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system

Jeeez... big compared to LOI

legendz

21/12/2022, 12:56 AM

Are Limerick and Kerry clubs likely to be enthusiastic about joining the Munster "Cork" Senior League?
An Irish solution an Irish problem might require district leagues feeding into regional leagues.
West Munster: Limerick (2), Kerry and Clare.
East Munster: Waterford and Tipperary.
North Connacht/Ulster
South Connacht/West Leinster
North Leinster
South Leinster
6 regional leagues in parallel to the existing 2 senior leagues.

EalingGreen

21/12/2022, 10:03 PM

I think one of the reasons we don't have a pyramid is the GAA mindset that affects all Irish sport. Whilst the type of hardcore football fan that browses here might not be influenced by GAA, most Irish people certainly are. That's why we have clubs like Galway United, Treaty, Wexford, nearly any club outside of the garrison towns/ dublin & cork. Galway United isn't like a football club in England, it's a lot more like the county board. Local clubs in Galway don't want to compete with United, except for the obvious two, who were the subject of scorn from other Galway clubs. This is why clubs like Kerry FC and CK United are popping up. County board clubs I call 'em.

There's no concept of a link between junior and intermediate because of this GAA mindset. IMO that needs to change. Intermediate football needs to be totally redesigned and then linked to the LOIllNot qualified to comment on that myself, but t does sound plausible.

And if so, I'd say it needs to be rooted out, which effectively means starting again. Essentially, pyramids are built from the bottom up. And the building blocks are not regions, areas, counties or provinces etc, they're clubs.

More specifically clubs which have the vision, resources, organisation, finances, support and community links to enter a pyramid and progress through it (provided they're given the necessary encouragemnet and support from the FAI etc.). So that it shouldn't matter if 90% of the teams eg come from greater Dublin, say, they need to be viable.

You then organise them in local leagues, with pronotion and relegation etc, requiring minimum standards as regards sadium and facilities etc. These standards need to be progressivley upgraded as the leagues develop, so as to prepare (5-10 years?) for entry of the best teams (both on and off the pitch) to Intermediate Leagues. These would need to be organised on a regional basis, grouped round where the participating clubs are located.

And once Intermediate football is bedded in (another 5-10 years?), you complete the pyramid by linking it to the two Senior Divisions.

Then assuming this pyramid becomes established, in time this should encourage new clubs from outside traditional football heartlands to sign up and have a go.

Well thats what I think, anyhow!

legendz

22/12/2022, 3:12 AM

Not qualified to comment on that myself, but t does sound plausible.

And if so, I'd say it needs to be rooted out, which effectively means starting again. Essentially, pyramids are built from the bottom up. And the building blocks are not regions, areas, counties or provinces etc, they're clubs.

More specifically clubs which have the vision, resources, organisation, finances, support and community links to enter a pyramid and progress through it (provided they're given the necessary encouragemnet and support from the FAI etc.). So that it shouldn't matter if 90% of the teams eg come from greater Dublin, say, they need to be viable.

You then organise them in local leagues, with pronotion and relegation etc, requiring minimum standards as regards sadium and facilities etc. These standards need to be progressivley upgraded as the leagues develop, so as to prepare (5-10 years?) for entry of the best teams (both on and off the pitch) to Intermediate Leagues. These would need to be organised on a regional basis, grouped round where the participating clubs are located.

And once Intermediate football is bedded in (another 5-10 years?), you complete the pyramid by linking it to the two Senior Divisions.

Then assuming this pyramid becomes established, in time this should encourage new clubs from outside traditional football heartlands to sign up and have a go.

Well thats what I think, anyhow!
How many clubs in the Irish League have attained professional status because of the pyramid structure?
Do Castleisland, Killarney and Tralee have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Newmarket on Fergus, Ennis, Shannon, Sixmilebridge and Kilrush have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Rathkeale, Glin, Abbeyfeale and Newcastlewest have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?

EalingGreen

23/12/2022, 10:38 AM

How many clubs in the Irish League have attained professional status because of the pyramid structure?

As clubs have declined eg (Distillery, Bangor, Ards, Newry etc) or even disappeared (eg Omagh Town, Derry City), new clubs have emerged or grown to take their places (eg Ballinamallard, Institute, Warrenpoint, Annagh, Ballymacash).
Consequently there are more senior clubs in existence, with better set-ups, in a much wider geographical spread than ever before. While those declining clubs have founbd a "home" in the pyramid more suited to their status, while they regroup and go again (eg Newry, Bangor).

Consequently NI routinely supports 24 senior clubs, of varying size and status, while the much larger and wealthier ROI struggles to achieve 20 such clubs.We couldn't have managed this without the pyramid.

Do Castleisland, Killarney and Tralee have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Newmarket on Fergus, Ennis, Shannon, Sixmilebridge and Kilrush have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Rathkeale, Glin, Abbeyfeale and Newcastlewest have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?Sorry, I'm not qualified to answer this.

legendz

23/12/2022, 11:01 AM

Consequently NI routinely supports 24 senior clubs, of varying size and status, while the much larger and wealthier ROI struggles to achieve 20 such clubs.We couldn't have managed this without the pyramid.How many of the 24 senior clubs have attained professional status because of the pyramid structure?

nigel-harps1954

23/12/2022, 2:40 PM

How many clubs in the Irish League have attained professional status because of the pyramid structure?
Do Castleisland, Killarney and Tralee have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Newmarket on Fergus, Ennis, Shannon, Sixmilebridge and Kilrush have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Rathkeale, Glin, Abbeyfeale and Newcastlewest have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?

I would say they'd have a better chance of attaining a professional status as part of a pyramid, as opposed to the current setup.

Year on year, building a little more as they progress up the divisions is a much more sustainable route than deciding they want to join the LOI and jump out straight of a junior or intermediate league.

Would Tralee Dynamos have been better off being able to be promoted and relegated into senior LOI divisions, rather than the joys they had of rejoining the Kerry league at the bottom of their ladder again after leaving the A Championship?

legendz

23/12/2022, 3:21 PM

I would say they'd have a better chance of attaining a professional status as part of a pyramid, as opposed to the current setup.

Year on year, building a little more as they progress up the divisions is a much more sustainable route than deciding they want to join the LOI and jump out straight of a junior or intermediate league.

Would Tralee Dynamos have been better off being able to be promoted and relegated into senior LOI divisions, rather than the joys they had of rejoining the Kerry league at the bottom of their ladder again after leaving the A Championship? Another thread is suggesting CCFL clubs are rowing against Longford Town. A lot of clubs coming through a pyramid system would have similar problems.
As a starting point, should there be a champions cup for district league champions? It could be the only change or it could help create the platform where district leagues would offer promotion to a regional league.
If Fanad United progressed through a pyramid, would they join the LoI after having teams already in place in the youth leagues?
There has to be a separation between elite level and elite recreation level. If a club wants to transition from elite recreational level to elite, there has to be a licensing process that is fair for all. The only solution again is dual pyramid structure. The LoI at elite level, with as many tiers are as required for clubs attaining an elite licence.
The second pyramid then for district recreational leagues that offer promotion to regional elite recreational leagues.

nigel-harps1954

23/12/2022, 3:42 PM

Separation of football in Ireland what has us in this mess.

pineapple stu

23/12/2022, 3:55 PM

There has to be a separation between elite level and elite recreation level. If a club wants to transition from elite recreational level to elite, there has to be a licensing process that is fair for all. The only solution again is dual pyramid structure.
You say this even though, in England and most other European leagues, this exact outcome is achieved without resorting to a dual pyramid...

EalingGreen

23/12/2022, 4:05 PM

How many of the 24 senior clubs have attained professional status because of the pyramid structure?In the Prem, Larne - currently top of the Division - had to go down to the 3rd tier when they didn't meet senior requirements - they've worked their way back up. And when Newry (est.1918) went under, without a pyramid their phoenix club, NCAFC (Est. 2012) could never have started again at the bottom and worked their way back up, with Warrenpoint Town (Est.1987) flying the IL flag in South Down in the meantime..

In the Championship, at least half the clubs have "come from nowhere" in the last two or three decades, while established clubs like Institute and Ards have recently been in the Prem.

While beneath them in the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier), Bangor, Armagh and Distillery are all former top tier clubs who would almost certaoinly be in a far worse state without the pyramid - if they still existed at all. While eg Ballymacash* and Dollingstown have also "come from nowhere" in their bid for Senior football.

Which is not to say it's all wonderful - it certainly isn't - but there is no doubt that football at the upper levels would be in a considerably worse state without a pyramid, with the benefits (better facilities,wider spread of teams, improved standards etc.) trickling down through Internediate football and even to Junior level

* - From having started out as a boys club in the 1980's, Ballymacash have grown to incorporate mens, girls, womens and Academy football and now have clear aspirations towards Senior status - see eg these developments from 2020: https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/work-starts-new-15-million-17314188, leading to: https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stunning-new-15m-community-sports-18562617, even against the background of Covid etc.

legendz

23/12/2022, 11:57 PM

You say this even though, in England and most other European leagues, this exact outcome is achieved without resorting to a dual pyramid...I don't agree with the idea that clubs that have made the commitment to elite level would be forced out.

In the Championship, at least half the clubs have "come from nowhere" in the last two or three decades, while established clubs like Institute and Ards have recently been in the Prem.Are these clubs becoming professional? If they are, is it sustainable?

Separation of football in Ireland what has us in this mess.Walk before one can run. A champions cup for district league champions might encourage the creation of higher level regional tiers. I agree with linking district leagues to provincial/regional leagues. Elite level should remain open for all. If Fanad want to join elite level, they should join the youth leagues and meet other elite licence criteria. The youth leagues have been careful so far so as to not over saturate an area. I would agree with applying that at elite level.
There are district league clubs rowing against LoI clubs. They are hindering the attainability of a professional setup. There needs to be a clear distinction between elite, elite recreational and recreational.

pineapple stu

24/12/2022, 7:48 AM

I don't agree with the idea that clubs that have made the commitment to elite level would be forced out.
You don't agree with relegation?

What a bizarre thing not to agree with

EalingGreen

24/12/2022, 2:45 PM

I don't agree with the idea that clubs that have made the commitment to elite level would be forced out.
"We were here first, so we must be here forever more" is it, then? "And if need be, we will draw up the ladder behind us, in case any newcomers shouild come along to threaten us. You know, by playing better football and drawing bigger crowds."

Are these clubs becoming professional?
They already have, at least on a semi-pro basis, same as the other, established* clubs.

* - As it happens, Larne, the Glens and Blues have recently gone f-t professional, with the Crues operating a hybrid system. But while this makes it harder for the other clubs to compete on the field, in itself it shouldn't affect their overall sustainability, so long as they "cut their cloth accordingly".

If they are, is it sustainable?
And yes, they generally are sustainable, as evidenced by the fact that far fewer of the IL's 24 senior clubs have gone bust than from amongst the LOI's 19 clubs. While even if they should prove unsustainable at the highest levels, the existence of a pyramid means they can still find their natural level, rather than be forced to "do a Tralee"

Indeed it is hard to underestimate how important the pyramid is for all this. For example, when Newry Town (Est.1918) went bust (I think) due to an incompetent Board, the supporters still controlled the stadium, and so were able to form a phoenix club in 2012, which started at the bottom of the pyramid and worked their way back up. During their absence, neighbouring Warrenpoint (Est.1987) were able to take advantage by signing their players, coaches etc, and gained promotion to the IL Prem in their place! Curiously enough, the Point were relegated to the Championship after last season, with their place being taken by Newry City AFC! AFC's average crowds this season are just under 1k, but they drew over 2k for their first game back in the Prem, a Sunday game at home to Linfield! And seeing as they own their own stadium, like the great majority of Senior clubs in NI, they ought, just, to be able to stay sustainable at that level.

Another good example are Bangor FC. Formed in 1914, they were always a member of the single tier Irish League (no promotion or relegation), with a conspicuous lack of success, often bumping along the bottom in front of paltry crowds etc.. They enjoyed a "Golden Age" in the early 1980's however, winning the Irish Cup and playing in Europe etc, but overreached themselves financially, getting relegated to the newly introduced lower divisions for a spell. Eventually, when back in the top division, they realised that they could no longer compete financially at that level. But instead of going bust, they voluntarily resigned from Senior football after first fulfilling their fixtures and have played Intermediate football instead for the last decade, even down to the fourth tier. The good news, however, is that they have now got their finances in order, are improving the stadium and are challenging at the top of the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier), from where it is now their stated ambition to get back into Senior football.

Had it not been for the pyramid, which allowed them to regroup, they would almost certainly have disappeared entirely, with their ground sold off for housing etc. Which for a provincial town of over 60k people would have represented a severe loss to domestic football in NI.

Buller

25/12/2022, 9:28 AM

Indeed it is hard to underestimate how important the pyramid is for all this. For example, when Newry Town (Est.1918) went bust (I think) due to an incompetent Board, the supporters still controlled the stadium, and so were able to form a phoenix club in 2012, which started at the bottom of the pyramid and worked their way back up. During their absence, neighbouring Warrenpoint (Est.1987) were able to take advantage by signing their players, coaches etc, and gained promotion to the IL Prem in their place! Curiously enough, the Point were relegated to the Championship after last season, with their place being taken by Newry City AFC! AFC's average crowds this season are just under 1k, but they drew over 2k for their first game back in the Prem, a Sunday game at home to Linfield! And seeing as they own their own stadium, like the great majority of Senior clubs in NI, they ought, just, to be able to stay sustainable at that level.

Another good example are Bangor FC. Formed in 1914, they were always a member of the single tier Irish League (no promotion or relegation), with a conspicuous lack of success, often bumping along the bottom in front of paltry crowds etc.. They enjoyed a "Golden Age" in the early 1980's however, winning the Irish Cup and playing in Europe etc, but overreached themselves financially, getting relegated to the newly introduced lower divisions for a spell. Eventually, when back in the top division, they realised that they could no longer compete financially at that level. But instead of going bust, they voluntarily resigned from Senior football after first fulfilling their fixtures and have played Intermediate football instead for the last decade, even down to the fourth tier. The good news, however, is that they have now got their finances in order, are improving the stadium and are challenging at the top of the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier), from where it is now their stated ambition to get back into Senior football.

Had it not been for the pyramid, which allowed them to regroup, they would almost certainly have disappeared entirely, with their ground sold off for housing etc. Which for a provincial town of over 60k people would have represented a severe loss to domestic football in NI.

Really interesting with Newry and Bangor - didnt know that background at all thanks for posting.

Similar happened with LOI clubs going bust in the naughties. Rovers, Shelbourne, Derry City and Cork City were all relegated around that time and went through periods of rebuilding in the First Division. A full pyramid down to amateur levels might have actually prolonged some suffering it could be argued. Bohs went bust too but managed to rebuild while maintaining Premier status.

If Glasgow Rangers werent relegated 4 tiers down to the bottom of the Scottish pyramid when they reformed - they might have recovered sooner? They spent 4 years (I think?) having to play semi-pro outfits. But yes, I think going down a tier can actually help the process.

Happy Christmas all!

pineapple stu

25/12/2022, 10:30 AM

If Glasgow Rangers werent relegated 4 tiers down to the bottom of the Scottish pyramid when they reformed - they might have recovered sooner? They spent 4 years (I think?) having to play semi-pro outfits. But yes, I think going down a tier can actually help the process.
Two years technically - Scottish second tier is fully pro (though you're right that they didn't two years there, hilariously losing the playoffs first time)

The flip side of your argument though I guess is that simply dropping one tier isn't a huge disincentive to financial mismanagement. Or even no punishment at all if you're a First Division side (eg Waterford). Teams don't tend to fold in England as much - Bury are a recent exception, re-forming in the tenth tier - but they tend to go into administration instead. We don't have administration here - or rather it's called examinership instead - but here it's the exception (Longford/Shamrock Rovers) rather than the rule.

I'm not sure in practical terms what the difference is, but I presume in administration you have to agree to pay your creditors x in the � whereas by going bust you don't have to pay anyone. Again, the former sounds fairer in general, if obviously still not ideal. I think the problems Rangers got into were so unprecedentedly large they couldn't even begin to make inroads

Also yep - happy Christmas foot.ie-ers!

Longfordian

25/12/2022, 11:30 AM

We've never been in administration/examinership.

pineapple stu

25/12/2022, 12:07 PM

Oh. What was the points deduction back in the mid noughties for then?

Longfordian

25/12/2022, 12:14 PM

That was for late submission of information for licensing. As far as I know our external auditor at the time was having some kind of personal issue so he was late in signing off the accounts.

EalingGreen

25/12/2022, 1:16 PM

Similar happened with LOI clubs going bust in the naughties. Rovers, Shelbourne, Derry City and Cork City were all relegated around that time and went through periods of rebuilding in the First Division. A full pyramid down to amateur levels might have actually prolonged some suffering it could be argued. Bohs went bust too but managed to rebuild while maintaining Premier status.
Otoh, a full pyramid might have "prolonged the suffering", as you say.

Oto, it might (a ) have prevented clubs going bust in the first place, had they known that the consequences of going bust would have been dropping to eg the 5th or 6th tier to start back up again. [In La Liga, Administration incurs an automatic demotion of two levels i.e. Primera clubs go down to the 3rd tier, which is regionalised and pretty much semi-pro, while Segunda clubs go to the 4th tier. And it is deliberately a two division demotion to stop eg a struggling Primera club which would probably get relegated anyhow, deliberately going into Admin, taking the relegation hit then starting again in the Segunda effectively debt free.]

While (b ), a pyramid would open opportunities for ambitious 3rd and 4th tier clubs to take the place of struggling Senior teams.

If Glasgow Rangers werent relegated 4 tiers down to the bottom of the Scottish pyramid when they reformed - they might have recovered sooner? They spent 4 years (I think?) having to play semi-pro outfits. But yes, I think going down a tier can actually help the process.Tbh, I still can't get my head round whether Sevco are just the old club in a new wrapper, or a brand new entity entirely. But if it were the latter, then properly speaking they should have been wound up and a new, phoenix club required to start again right at the very bottom in eg the Glasgow & District League Division 3 (orwhatever) like eg Bury FC have had to do in England. But of course whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, there is no way the SFA would ever have countenanced that latter outcome.

Happy Christmas all...... and a Merry New Year!

EalingGreen

25/12/2022, 1:29 PM

I'm not sure in practical terms what the difference is, but I presume in administration you have to agree to pay your creditors x in the � whereas by going bust you don't have to pay anyone. Again, the former sounds fairer in general, if obviously still not ideal. I think the problems Rangers got into were so unprecedentedly large they couldn't even begin to make inroads No expert either, but that seems about right to me.

I suspect the r�ason why English clubs usually go into Administration and avoid Receivership is that they usually own their own ground. So that if they are in trouble, they still have a tangible asset upon which to resume operating (along with their League membership,. of course). The real problems occur when club and stadium ownership get legally separated. In such cases, unless there is a benefactor willing to step in, the old club has no real assets to secure the financial backing needed to start again. (The Newry situation was most unusual in that the stadium remained in the hands of the supporters, rather than eg some property developer.)

outspoken

25/12/2022, 4:31 PM

That was for late submission of information for licensing. As far as I know our external auditor at the time was having some kind of personal issue so he was late in signing off the accounts.

As someone who was only really getting into supporting De Town back then, was that the case or was the club just fooked financially and we were dragging our feet? I remember reading after relegation that year we were over �1 million in debt, there was a real fear of the club folding.

Longfordian

25/12/2022, 5:22 PM

They weren't related really. We were in trouble financially but even though it was always a last minute job to get everything done for licensing every year in those days the accounts were with the auditor in sufficient time according to our officials at the time. You could argue they should have accounted for an emergency like that but it's hard to be too critical those working themselves to the bone on a purely voluntary basis. It wasn't an issue any other year. Arguably it was for the best that we went down that year. We may not have been able to overcome the extra debt another year in the Premier Division would have brought. It was hard enough to deal with the debt that was there already.

We absolutely could have been gone but for a few individuals putting in enough money to satisfy the Revenue. They were the big danger, no other creditor really wanted to see us out of business. Deals were done with them all in the end.