Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[EalingGreen]

To be fair, you're really oversimplfying things.

There's no reason the likes of a Kerry side, playing out of a decent facility in Mounthawk Park, couldn't be equally as successful as any long established junior or intermediate side. They've sown the seeds at underage level this past five or six years. They're on the edge of Tralee, a town of 25,000 people. It's well enough equipped, in theory at least, to host a LOI side.

Monaghan United would be in the driving seat to take one of the places. They're currently playing in the Ulster Senior League, and have long established links with the LOI already.

There was a Leinster Senior League club who mentioned big plans, was in Bluebell or Crumlin? Cabo departure leaves a gap for a Dublin side in the third tier. One of the thriving LSL sides might fancy a crack at it.

Fair enough, that's 3 or 4 teams who should comfortably step up to the 3rd tier (though how long before they could survive in the second tier is another matter).

But you're looking for another half dozen of similar standard if a 10 team(?) third tier is going to be reasonably competitive in itself, never mind capable of proving an adequate feeder to the second tier.



There's plenty of sides out there who could, and should, be able to step into a third division, if it were regionalised. The idea to fill up the rest of the spots with LOI B sides should be welcomed, and a regional North/South division would make it more cost effective for teams to step into.
Regionalisation would certainly solve some problems, but it would surely exacerbate the wider problem.

Namely, even if you only had two regional leagues of, say, 8 teams each, that would still require 16 teams to be promoted from their present status, or created from scratch.

And considering the FAI couldn't even come up with a single, serious 10th team for the second tier in time for this year, where are you going to get another 10 or 12 for a single division third tier by next year, never mind 16 or 20 or more if regionalised?

[EatYerGreens]

Fair enough, that's 3 or 4 teams who should comfortably step up to the 3rd tier (though how long before they could survive in the second tier is another matter).

But you're looking for another half dozen of similar standard if a 10 team(?) third tier is going to be reasonably competitive in itself, never mind capable of proving an adequate feeder to the second tier.


Regionalisation would certainly solve some problems, but it would surely exacerbate the wider problem.

Namely, even if you only had two regional leagues of, say, 8 teams each, that would still require 16 teams to be promoted from their present status, or created from scratch.

And considering the FAI couldn't even come up with a single, serious 10th team for the second tier in time for this year, where are you going to get another 10 or 12 for a single division third tier by next year, never mind 16 or 20 or more if regionalised?

I think you're being unnecessaruly pessimistic in essentially writing off the idea of a Third Tier before its even been born/launched. Particularly as you'd have to accept that you're not up to speed with the current non-league and underage scene in the south (as shown by your assumption that every cluh in the 3rd would be made up from scratch, rather than any existing clubs stepping up or adopting a new name).

So probably best to wait and see what actually transpires before writing it off ?

[EalingGreen]

And in the LoI, you have UCD/Drogheda/Harps at the bottom of the Premier and at the top of the First you have Cork/Waterford/Galway. That's also not that big.

Agree, but that wasn't really my point. FD clubs may climb to the Prem and v.v., but that gap is a sight less than climbing into the FD from eg junior football in Kerry or youth leagues in Mayo (or whatever), especially if it's a brand new club.

I mean, when the FAI couldn't get a 10th club for the FD this year, where are they going to get 8 or 10 3rd tier clubs, with reasonable aspirations to the FD, by next year?

They may prove me wrong, but I just don't see it.



I think you're grossly overestimating the LoI First Division to think that promotion to it is equivalent to climbing Carrauntoohil. And yes, clubs being relegated from the FD could "drop off a cliff" - but no different to NI, as in the example of Lisburn Distillery that I gave.

Hang on.

You're saying that the jump from FD to Prem is not that big (I agree), while at the same time "grossly overestimating" the FD? Doesn't add up.

Meanwhile, if I may digress onto Distillery, they are an outlier and their decline has nothing to do with the pyramid, since their problems long predate IL reorganisation.

Briefly, as the first professional club in Ireland, their heyday was in the early 20th Century, with periodic revivals, and with Tom Finney playing for them in a 3-3 draw with Benfica in the European Cup(!) being a last hurrah. By the 70's, they were Belfast's 4th or 5th team when the Council compulsorily purchased their ground to build the Westway, The Troubles then followed, hitting West Belfast particularly hard. The ground compensation having been inadequate, attempts to purchase elsewhere in Belfast were scuppered by cost, or the police (security reasons), and they had to move out of the city completely. -

Eventually they decamped to a trotting stadium in Ballyskeagh, a country location a couple of miles outside Lisburn, itself never a football town. The fact that they're still going, even at so modest a level is, if anything, a testament to the pyramid, since it has allowed them to continue to exist into the 21st Century as a third tier club, no more no less.



And again, I agree that the jump would be better made by established clubs rather than brand new ones.

Indeed.

If you look to NI, even considering all our other problems (size, population, economy, Troubles etc), the one thing that has sustained us is that we have always had lots of long established clubs in most towns and areas to build upon. For example, I seem to recall reading that at the time of the split in 1921, the Co.Antrim FA had more member clubs than the whole of Munster and Connaught combined.

Meaning that even when we lost two major clubs in Belfast Celtic and Derry City, or clubs like Bangor and Ards declined, what were formerly junior or intermediate clubs like Crusaders, Carrick and Larne were able to step up, followed by the likes of Ballyclare, Dungannon, Ballinamallard, Institute, Warrenpoint etc.

And while not wishing to overstate the level of achievement - we're still "small fry" in modern professional terms - nonetheless this progress towards a viable, thriving pyramid across the whole of NI has still taken many years of hard work and planning to get us even to this level.

But as I say, maybe the FAI will prove me wrong.

[sbgawa]

I think the point you are missing is that there are already 5 or 6 underage "clubs" like Kerry who have a strong identity as they have been competing in LOI but at underage level for years.
The step up to first division is to much for them in one leap but a 3rd tier with similar costs as running an under 19s team would be welcomed by them as it means they have a home for the players when they hit 20 (many of whom have been playing for the "club" since under 14 or 15).

The costs in the underage loi are kept down by simple things like the home team has a physio there but the away team don't need to bring one.
Promotion to the first division would need to be contingent on minimum ground standards but having a competitive 3rd tier if the costs are kept low is an easy enough win i believe (plus 1 or two reserve teams).

[EalingGreen]

Also important to note that promotion and relegation leads to a degree of 'trickle-down' across a pyramid. If you look at the non-league/conference scene in England now versus how it was when P&R was first introduced out of it in 1987 it is light years away in terms of the difference, Even if you look at the conference level in England 15 to 20yrs ago vs now, there is no comparison. It's only in the last 10 years or so that big clubs like Luton, Wimbledon, Bristol Rovers, Halifax etc started being at conference level in numbers, which has led since to the Conference Premier becoming an almost entirely professional league. And a lot of the clubs who replaced them in the Football League have become established there now (e.g. Stevenage, Forest Green, Crawley, Fleetwood, Cheltenham).
All of which is very true, but actually rather supports my case, not the FAI's.

For the lack of P&R in England until 1987 had two effects: 1. to artificially protect failing clubs in the 4th Division, and 2. to artificially suppress progressive, ambitious new member clubs from rising non-league.

Often the former were Northern and the latter Southern, reflecting the shift in economic fortunes and population since the 1970's. The English population has also grown overall by 10 million since then and is wealthier, meaning that England can now comfortably support rather more f-t professional clubs than the original 92.

Meanwhile, with the exception of MK Dons (outlier), virtually all of the new FL clubs you mention were already established semi-pro clubs, in existence for decades, if not a century or more, and so were well able to make the step-up to f-t status in the EFL. And even then they didn't all step up at the same time, with just one years notice.

(Note, too, that those clubs you name were just the best of the up-and-coming clubs. England has literally dozens of other solid non-league clubs in provincial towns up and down the country, who like eg Kidderminster or Borehamwood, come to our attention in the FA Cup, and might one day climb to the EFL.)



The dynamic is a three-way thing. Firstly some bigger clubs fall down the pyramid - though still retaining the potential they had in terms of support, sponsorship etc. That therefore generally over time lifts the quality of the tiers they fall into - by having more established clubs with better stadia, bigger actual/potential fanbases, larger gates at games home and away etc. Portadown were outnumbering the home support at pretty much every away game they played whilst in the IL second tier.

Then secondly you have the movement the other way - with smaller clubs rising up the pyramid and getting more established there, which helps them to grow both fanbase and facilities (though it takes time). An example of this in the IL would be Dunganon Swifts - who first got promoted to the top tier in 2003, and have become an established top tier club since then. With Stangmore Park greatly improved, and the team making an Irish Cup Final and also playing in Europe twice. Would Stangmore be the ground it is now if they'd never played in the IL top tier ? Obviously it wouldn't (because it wouldn't have needed to be).

And then finally there are clubs who have never played at a high level in the pyramid but aspire to do so - and therefore invest in their facilities, team etc to be in a position where that would be possible some day (ratehr ths win promotion on the pitch and then get refused on the basis of facilities). Harland & Wolff Welders with their fantastic new stadium would be a good example of that. Which again improves the whole eco-system and lifts the bar across the level they currently play at.

The net result of the three dynamics above is that the ebb and flow of clubs up and down lifts the standards slowly across all levels of the pyramid. It's an undeniable dynamic, but does take a bit of time to naturally occur/evolve.
Everything you say is entirely correct.

But my point is that you cannot have the powerful dynamic you identify without a basic core of established clubs to make it happen. And I struggle to see where all those clubs exist in ROI for a viable third tier of 10 clubs (minimum), without a good proportion having to be created from scratch.

And the LOI's record in "magicing up" new clubs overnight is not a good one - Irish Sea FC anyone?

But we'll see.

[EalingGreen]

Why are you assuming that an LOI 3rd tier would be an entity made up of entirely new. rootless clubs ?
I'm not, just a good proportion.


A bit like how Kildare County was a 'new' club when it joined the LOI, but in reality wasn't really..
And what happened to them?

Meanwhile, Salthill, Mervue, Kilkenny, Monaghan and Cabo weren't all-new clubs, either, but they couldn't hack it in senior football.

[pineapple stu]

Ealing - no harm, but sometimes more is less.

Half your post is about the benefits of established clubs over new ones; I've said umpteen times I agree with that point. I'm not sure why you're rehashing it.

A quarter of your post is a sob story about Distillery - it doesn't matter why they've "levelled out" in the third tier; the fact is they have done so, so the concerns that the same may happen here are irrelevant. If, say, Cobh drop to the third tier and can't find their way out they'll have a similar sob story. But so what? That's football.

And that leaves only a quarter of your post that's actually relevant - and yet it's not, because you've quietly shifted from your view that the move from FD to PD is like going from Carrauntoohil to Everest, and now you agree that actually it's not that big.

And the gap from what currently is the third tier - LSL/MSL, say - isn't insurmountable either. FD clubs get knocked out by non-league clubs in the Cup for example. There's plenty of teams around the country who could step up. The problem is that the proposed structure (and I've said on here before that I don't agree with the third tier in its current format, as it's just adding an extra layer onto a failed system) isn't catered towards finding them. The top clubs in the LSL/MSL are unlikely to want to jump up from their small pool where they can lord it, and into a national league where they're also rans. That's the key issue that needs resolving.

So the small point that I queried at the start of all this was -


Presently your top tier is mostly f-t professional, while your second tier is basically p-t professional.

But if your third tier is little more than geerously-expensed amateur, the problem will come when the winners get promoted to the second tier and second tier clubs get relegated to the third.
This, to me, is still very similar to the IL, and not an issue in the proposed set-up. What is an issue is that the clubs for the third tier aren't necessarily the best ones for it - and that's because adding a third tier onto a stand-alone pyramid still leaves you with a stand-alone pyramid. That's the real problem.

[Kiki Balboa]

And the gap from what currently is the third tier - LSL/MSL, say - isn't insurmountable either. FD clubs get knocked out by non-league clubs in the Cup for example. There's plenty of teams around the country who could step up. The problem is that the proposed structure (and I've said on here before that I don't agree with the third tier in its current format, as it's just adding an extra layer onto a failed system) isn't catered towards finding them. The top clubs in the LSL/MSL are unlikely to want to jump up from their small pool where they can lord it, and into a national league where they're also rans. That's the key issue that needs resolving.

Sorry for being off topic, but I am just wondering if this feeling still holds through for the LSL and MSL anymore (Genuinely don't know). I seen a post on twitter about all of the LSL teams in the top divisions going bust, and others falling through the divisions, and basically how there is less local prestige for the clubs, and got me wondering, that things are also very different for them now, than it was 10 or 20 years ago.

Delaney (and his promises and protection) is gone, the power of the youth DDSL is diminishing, and the overall reputation nationally of the League of Ireland is increasing. Just got me thinking that the top LSL and junior clubs might be a lot more in favor of reforming the system into a pyramid too, to give themselves a some more opportunities.

[EalingGreen]

Ealing... ... you've quietly shifted from your view that the move from FD to PD is like going from Carrauntoohil to Everest, and now you agree that actually it's not that big.

Looking back to #145, either I mis-stated it, or you have misunderstood, but what I meant was that if the step-up from eg LSL or MSL to a third tier is Carrauntoohil, then subsequent promotion to the FD for such a club would be Mont Blanc.

I certainly never mentioned Everest.



And the gap from what currently is the third tier - LSL/MSL, say - isn't insurmountable either.

I'll take your word for it.



What is an issue is that the clubs for the third tier aren't necessarily the best ones for it - and that's because adding a third tier onto a stand-alone pyramid still leaves you with a stand-alone pyramid. That's the real problem.
You seem to be agreeing with me, while appearing to be determined to be seen to be disagreeing with me!

Agreeing, that is, when I speculate that the FAI will have a helluva job finding 10 clubs by 2023 - whether existing or newly-created - which will all be capable of operating a 3rd tier to a standard which is not so far below the FD that P&R becomes unsustainable, even farcical.

(As for Distillery, whom you brought up, I was merely trying to illustrate that they had the legs cut under them by events which were nothing to do with football, the basic set-up of the then existing in the IL, or the restructuring into a pyramid more recently. Meaning that they are/were in no way relevant to this discussion.)

[WeAreRovers]

FAI more concerned with a continuing pathway that bridges the gap between u19 and senior football rather than just creating a pyramid for the sake of it and as such I'd imagine the new 3rd tier will be made of a mix of existing B teams - Rovers II being the obvious template - junior clubs that want to make the step up and groups like the Kerry League.

Mark Scanlon's comments yesterday seem to support that - “Whether it’s a B team from a current club, a partner club, or a brand new geographical area where some clubs are already in our underage leagues."

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/league-ireland-third-division-long-26188317

[sbgawa]

FAI more concerned with a continuing pathway that bridges the gap between u19 and senior football rather than just creating a pyramid for the sake of it and as such I'd imagine the new 3rd tier will be made of a mix of existing B teams - Rovers II being the obvious template - junior clubs that want to make the step up and groups like the Kerry League.

Mark Scanlon's comments yesterday seem to support that - “Whether it’s a B team from a current club, a partner club, or a brand new geographical area where some clubs are already in our underage leagues."

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/league-ireland-third-division-long-26188317


This exactly a third tier will be easily put together.
We have 5 or 6 teams playing under 14s,15s,17s, 19s now who can just continue as u20 with a grant from FAI like the grants for the other age groups (+ a few older players if they want).
+ Rovers B
+ 100% for good or bad (probably bad) POS will enter Limerick City.
+ A.N.others

It will make the first division an exciting place to be 5 out of 9 either promoted or in the playoffs and 2 of the other 4 either relegated or in a play off......
OR some other mad combination :)

[pineapple stu]

Looking back to #145, either I mis-stated it, or you have misunderstood, but what I meant was that if the step-up from eg LSL or MSL to a third tier is Carrauntoohil, then subsequent promotion to the FD for such a club would be Mont Blanc.

I certainly never mentioned Everest.
Fine - Mont Blanc. The exact mountain doesn't change the sentiment. The step from LSL to third tier is not as big a step as you think.


You seem to be agreeing with me, while appearing to be determined to be seen to be disagreeing with me!
I mean - you've said various things, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't agree with. It's not that hard a concept, is it?

I disagree with the value of just adding in an open-invitation third tier and making no other changes - as it seems to you.

But I don't agree with you that there aren't clubs around who could make the jump, or that the jump is too big. There's no incentive for most to make the jump. That's the problem.

The strategic plan KPI for an outlined pyramid structure by 2025 is encouraging - and yet, as I've said before, I won't hold my breath for it to actually happen.

[EatYerGreens]

Ealing Green - I think the fundamental problem here is that you don't appear to understand non-league in the south. As a Nordy that's not a huge surprise - but your posts are going on as if you do understand it (when the content of those posts suggests otherwise).

As has been pointed out to you multiple times by a number of people now, there are strong non-league clubs around - some of whom regularly feature in the FAI Cup early rounds, and some of whom would presumably be interested in a 3rd tier (Ballymnun United revealed ambitious stadia proposals at the end of last year, and suggested that their ambition was to enter the LOI). There are also clubs in the LOIs' underage structure who would doubtless be keen to add an extra age level on and join a 3rd tier. And then there are existing footballing organisational structures and venues in a number of counties that would be used to form 'new' clubs which would essentially be just a rebranding and extension of an existing set up in order to enter the 3rd tier. This should not be hard to understand - yet you keep insisting that Irish football is a desert outside of the LOI's current 2 tiers.

And you may have thought you were being clever to bring up Irish Sea Border FC. But the fact they weren't allowed into the LOi and have never actually existed in reality just shows how daft it was to chuck them into this debate. Your posts have a veneer of looking to have a go at/sneer at the LOI constantly throughout them.

In summary - I'm afraid you don't appear to understand the non-league scene in the south, but are waving your arms around as if you do. So take a breather, listen to what people are telling you, and maybes wait and see what transpires before you completely rubbish the 3rd tier concept on scant knowledge. I know internet forums are all about debates - but being at least partially informed in them is generally considered a minimum entry requirement if you want your views to be taken seriously.

[EalingGreen]

Fine - Mont Blanc. The exact mountain doesn't change the sentiment. The step from LSL to third tier is not as big a step as you think.

I shall try one last time.

At 3,400 feet, Carrauntoohill is not very difficult - I walked up it myself one afternoon when I was in my 40's. Meaning that the step up from eg the LSL to a 3rd tier need not be very difficult either.

Mont Blanc is 15,700 feet, covered in snow year round and needs ropes, crampons and years of mountaineering experience etc. Meaning that the step up from 3rd tier to FD is a challenge of a whole different magnitude, especially in the first years before the 3rd tier teams/competition have settled in.

So that it's not that the FAI isn't capable of assembling 10 teams for a 3rd tier - of course they can - it's that the teams are liable to be so far behind the 2 top tiers, in so many respects, as to negate the whole point of a pyramid: smooth transition up and down the divisions; even competitiveness; ambition and investment rewarded and overall standards raised etc.

Nor am I saying that the LOI is inherently incapable of accommodating such a structure - there's no good (stress) reason why it cannot. But what I cannot grasp is how they can prepare for all that by next year, especially when they're still financially strapped and have so many other items on their to-do list, all while they're trying to transform their own organisation.


But I don't agree with you that there aren't clubs around who could make the jump, or that the jump is too big. There's no incentive for most to make the jump. That's the problem.
The incentive is obvious: to improve, develop, win things, chase trophies, "be the best you can" (to borrow an Americanism). Otherwise why bother playing at all?

The real problem is that such are the structural inequalities between LOI football and non-League football that the cost of going for it (stadium, facilities, players, expenses, staffing etc) poses too much of a risk when measured against the rewards on offer.

Meaning that it won't be enough to assemble 10 teams overnight and call them "The Third Division" (or somesuch), there surely has to be a huge amount of groundwork to be done first, in preparation for a launch.

Why do I say all that? Because I've observed just how much hard work and time it's taken to do something like that in NI, and that on a very modest scale.

And why am I interested? Well aside from being nerdy about such things generally(!), I'm sure there are lessons to be learnt for the IL (both ways, in fact), especially if when the idea of an All-Ireland League gets dusted off again, as it tends to do every few years.

[pineapple stu]

All that guff about mountains is very nice, but it doesn't really change the fact that fundamentally you're wrong. Despite what you say, the First Division isn't a strong division and there absolutely are non-league clubs who would step up. The idea that it's a huge increase in quality from, say, LSL to FD is just not true and has nothing to back it up.

When you say "The incentive is obvious: to improve, develop, win things, chase trophies, "be the best you can" (to borrow an Americanism)", you again demonstrate your lack of understanding of non-league here. For, say, Crumlin United, the LSL is the big one. That's where they're a big fish. That's where their history is and where their rivals are. If they jumped up to the First Division - a national division where they would be also rans - they quite possibly feel they would lose a large part of their identity. It's of course daft that the LSL can hold back clubs as much as it is doing, but that's the core issue here. And there's plenty of other small pools around the country - all the silly county district leagues; there's two of the fecking things in Limerick for some reason - which similarly local clubs feel inordinately attached to. For them, being the best they can be means winning their local league.

So in light of that - what is the incentive to move up to senior level?

[sadloserkid]

The incentive is obvious: to improve, develop, win things, chase trophies, "be the best you can" (to borrow an Americanism). Otherwise why bother playing at all?

I've, sincerely, really enjoyed your contribution to this thread but I suspect that a desire to win thing and chase trophies is exactly what would keep the comparative heavyweights of the MSL and LSL exactly where they are.

I'd also be very sceptical of ten clubs from outside the existing, extended LOI family being found but if they found five and bolstered that with the long suffering Rovers II and a few from the current underage leagues they'd have... well they'd have something to try and make a fist of. Ballymun have expressed LOI ambitions recently, St.Francis applied to come back to senior football when Treaty stepped up. Of course it's all ifs and buts so far. Maybe newly monied Derry might switch their second string from USL to LOI3, maybe a Tralee or a Mervue or a Tullamore might have gotten over the PTSD of the A-Championship era. Truly I won't believe it's happening until it's confirmed and even then it'd probably be ten years until I was comfortable believing it would last but I hope something happens anyway to give some sort of shot in the arm.

[EalingGreen]

As has been pointed out to you multiple times by a number of people now, there are strong non-league clubs around - some of whom regularly feature in the FAI Cup early rounds, and some of whom would presumably be interested in a 3rd tier (Ballymnun United revealed ambitious stadia proposals at the end of last year, and suggested that their ambition was to enter the LOI).
I've no doubt there are.

But being very "strong", in the sense of being rooted in their community, getting people playing football, winning their local competitions and generally being "proper" footballing people etc, is one thing - I'm sure there are loads of clubs doing just that, 90%+ of whom I've never even heard tell of..

But being able to run clubs like this at junior, under-age or intermediate football is one thing. To raise them to senior level is quite something else. Otherwise, how/why did the LOI find it so difficult to find just one to fill a single gap in the FD these last three years? Such that they had to turn first to Shamrock Rovers Reserves, then Cabinteeley, then just give up and stick with nine anyhow?



you keep insisting that Irish football is a desert outside of the LOI's current 2 tiers.

I'm not saying it's a desert, just that it's very imbalanced, with a huge gap between thew 19 senior clubs and the rest.



And you may have thought you were being clever to bring up Irish Sea Border FC.

That was just a joke. You know, exagerration for effect. And it's not as if plenty of others havent made the same joke, on here, at least.



In summary - I'm afraid you don't appear to understand the non-league scene in the south, but are waving your arms around as if you do. So take a breather, listen to what people are telling you, and maybes wait and see what transpires before you completely rubbish the 3rd tier concept on scant knowledge. I know internet forums are all about debates - but being at least partially informed in them is generally considered a minimum entry requirement if you want your views to be taken seriously.
I am being informed.

By some posters, at least. :wink:

[EalingGreen]

Despite what you say, the First Division isn't a strong division and there absolutely are non-league clubs who would step up. The idea that it's a huge increase in quality from, say, LSL to FD is just not true and has nothing to back it up.

You say that, yet in your post# 148, you also assert that the gap between the FD and Prem isn't that that big either (for many of the clubs, at any rate).

Which is it?

Or is the total gap from 3rd Tier, to FD, to Prem is not so big either?



When you say "The incentive is obvious: to improve, develop, win things, chase trophies, "be the best you can" (to borrow an Americanism)", you again demonstrate your lack of understanding of non-league here. For, say, Crumlin United, the LSL is the big one. That's where they're a big fish. That's where their history is and where their rivals are. If they jumped up to the First Division - a national division where they would be also rans - they quite possibly feel they would lose a large part of their identity. It's of course daft that the LSL can hold back clubs as much as it is doing, but that's the core issue here. And there's plenty of other small pools around the country - all the silly county district leagues; there's two of the fecking things in Limerick for some reason - which similarly local clubs feel inordinately attached to. For them, being the best they can be means winning their local league.

Trust me, I am very familiar with the "Big Fish/Small Pond" syndrome - there's plenty of it still to be had in NI football.

But my point is that there also exist very many clubs who are not content with swimming around in the same small pond every year, the people behind them are also ambitious to take their club as far as they possibly can.

And I can't believe that such people don't also exist in the ROI - of course they do. Meaning that it's not small-time ideas or lack of ambition which must be holding them back, but a severe structural imbalance.

And from what I've observed in NI, such an imbalance won't be solved overnight by simply throwing ten teams together and calling them "The Third Division" (i.e. senior).

But we'll see.



So in light of that - what is the incentive to move up to senior level?
As I've said, the incentive is that of proving yourself at the highest possible level.

The problem is that the disincentives (risk, cost, failure etc) outweigh the basic incentive.

Maybe this is all just semantics?

[EatYerGreens]

Otherwise, how/why did the LOI find it so difficult to find just one to fill a single gap in the FD these last three years?

The answer(s) to that is very simple.

Firstly - expecting a club to step up to full senior level at short notice is probably a recipe for disaster. Most clubs, even if they have ambitions to play at the full LOI senior level, would rather transition to that over time - not be parachuted into it with little notice. Now if only there was an Intermediate third tier that could help enable them to make sich a transition....

Secondly - it actually costs a lot of clubs to play in the LOI. If you finish bottom of the First Division, you will pay out more in participation fees and fines than you will receive back in prize money. When you add in the fact that the First Division would involve much greater travel costs, players costs etc etc, it would therefore clearly be a huge financial risk for some clubs to join the 2nd tier. Not to mention a big distraction from their othern activity re youth teams etc. Again - if only there was an intermediate tier below it that could help them transition towards the full senior level (or at least see if it was right for themselves). And also - With the FAI looking to create a deeper conjoined eco-system for the top level in the country, presumably as part of that they'll start addressing some of these issues re greater prize money, grants to cover travelling etc.

I honestly have no idea what the core of your argument is here any more. Are you saying there should be no pyramid at all in the LOI, because there is apparently a K2 between the First Division and everyone else below ? If not, then what are you actually saying should happen ?

[pineapple stu]

You say that, yet in your post# 148, you also assert that the gap between the FD and Prem isn't that that big either (for many of the clubs, at any rate).

Which is it?
Why do you think those are mutually exclusive?

Decent LSL team --> average FD team gap isn't that great (but is still real). Decent FD team --> average PD gap team isn't that great. But that still means decent LSL team --> decent PD team can be reasonably big.


But my point is that there also exist very many clubs who are not content with swimming around in the same small pond every year, the people behind them are also ambitious to take their club as far as they possibly can.

And I can't believe that such people don't also exist in the ROI - of course they do. Meaning that it's not small-time ideas or lack of ambition which must be holding them back, but a severe structural imbalance.
That's a lot of supposing there EG. And not much to back it up really.


As I've said, the incentive is that of proving yourself at the highest possible level.
I've already explained why this isn't an incentive of itself. It's a bit disingenuous to just repeat your stance while ignoring the points made against it.

The disincentives do outweigh the basic incentive - but you need to understand that leaving behind the small pool which is your club's traditional history is also, for right or wrong, a big disincentive for many.

[EatYerGreens]

Is there such a thing as 'Nordysplaining' ?

[nigel-harps1954]

I think the lesson to be learned here, is not to ever try anything.

[Jd2793]

imagine i'll be told off here but anyway...is there a market in dublin for supporters of LSL sides who dont have an LOI team? its hard to imagine this would be a case in dublin where there is plenty of big clubs with history. im all for a 3rd tier but one thats pretty low on dublin based senior clubs whether that is feasible or not is another thing

[Martinho II]

imagine i'll be told off here but anyway...is there a market in dublin for supporters of LSL sides who dont have an LOI team? its hard to imagine this would be a case in dublin where there is plenty of big clubs with history. im all for a 3rd tier but one thats pretty low on dublin based senior clubs whether that is feasible or not is another thing

Would love to see the likes of Mullingar town join this after trying to get in a good few years ago also Tullamore Town were in the old LOI B

[EatYerGreens]

Would love to see the likes of Mullingar town join this after trying to get in a good few years ago also Tullamore Town were in the old LOI B

There were actually 2 teams from Mullingar trying to out-do each other to get into the LOI at that time - Town and Athletic. Mullingar Town even shipped in a whole team of geezers from London to boost their squad, in real peak-Celtic Tiger stuff (even though it was early on in the Tiger phenomena) : Mullingar Town import entire squad in bid to gain League status - Independent.ie (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/mullingar-town-import-entire-squad-in-bid-to-gain-league-status-26078551.html)

'You wait your whole life for a league entrant from Millingar, and then two come along at once'. Though neither seem to have had much interest in the senior game in recent years (?)

Interestingly the Mullingar Town imports contained 4 Nigerians and a Brazilian. What an amazing opportunity for young lads raised amidst global levels of poverty, crime and hopelessness - and with nothing to look forward to except a love of football - to see such people play in their Midland's town.

[Longfordian]

There was a very bitter rivalry between the two clubs apparently. And towards Athlone. I can't remember which Mullingar club it was but I remember hearing that their members and officials were much more likely to go and watch us rather than give Athlone any support.

[EatYerGreens]

There was a very bitter rivalry between the two clubs apparently. And towards Athlone. I can't remember which Mullingar club it was but I remember hearing that their members and officials were much more likely to go and watch us rather than give Athlone any support.

My ex lives in Mullingar, and I remember her brother telling me there was a bitter rivalry between Athletic and Town in Mullingar as well. One club apparently had the money but no suppport (presumably Town?), whilst the other was in the reverse situation. I remember him saying that one of them was based on the edge of a big estate or something. Anyways - apparently they both hated each other. Mullingar loves a good local feud.

[Philosophizer]

Having went to school in Mullingar and played for Athletic for a few years at that time I can confirm there is a rivalry. But i got the sense it's only between the few people who run the clubs, not the players. It's a small town so the players all know each other and have usually went to school together etc. In my experience the players from both sides were always respectful to one another. Town didn't have many underage teams at that time so many of their senior players had played underage with Athletic at some point. And there's been loads of players who've hopped between both clubs.
And yes Town's pitch is in Dalton park, a big estate in the town. Athletic's ground is a few km outside the town, but with excellent facilities.
I'm not in touch with anyone on the ground there these days so not sure if either of them have any ambitions of joining the LOI.
I can't say I'm aware of any rivalry with Athlone. When I played with Athletic I remember playing against Athlone town around u17 and u18 and it was no big deal at all, just another game. And when we had school games it was the same thing. Same thing with games against Longford or Tullamore. They were all decent sized towns so the games were usually competitive but I never remember any rivalry.

[Longfordian]

Yeah I'd say it could well have been just the officials. It was just something one of our own officials said he'd been told at some stage. I think I "played" against Athletic as a youngster and they had very good facilities at the time.

[Lim till i die]

(Limerick FC (as opposed to Treaty have teams in the underage system and have applied for a senior licence)

Limerick FC didn't apply for a senior license.

Also don't have an u-19s team.

They would have entered an u-19s team if paud had any interest in going back in. He doesn't.

[sbgawa]

Limerick FC didn't apply for a senior license.

Also don't have an u-19s team.

They would have entered an u-19s team if paud had any interest in going back in. He doesn't.

I could be wrong but i heard he accepted the underage as a compromise and his idea was to then move to senior.
Its mad anyway that he is prolonging this either way

[nr637]

The Third Tier idea should contain the best Junior clubs in the country, just take a look at the current FAI Junior Cup teams and you could choose a varied selection. Dublin have top teams like Crumlin or Sherriff, Limerick have several candidates like Pike Rovers and Fairview Rangers while many others such as Carrick Utd, St. Michaels, Westport United, and many more well run clubs to many to list here. If the FAI gave them assurances that promtion was not a priority and only necessary if the club were prepared for it.
I think there could be a good structure there for these clubs to explore. I don't think any current clubs especially the First Division clubs would fancy being relegated to a third division made up of these established junior clubs. It may also serve as an incentive for many of the progressive clubs around the conuntry.

[EalingGreen]

Something which occurs from another thread is the summer vs winter season debate.

From the FAI's 4 year plan:
The FAI are vowing to create a new, third tier league in the men’s League of Ireland by 2023... ... with the ultimate aim of instituting a "transformed football pyramid structure” in Irish football by 2025.

Seeing as the 3rd tier must inevitably follow a summer season, does this mean that those new clubs which are currently playing a winter season will have to withdraw from their existing league at the end of 2022 to join the new 3rd tier in Feb.2023? (Or simply not enter into a 2022/23 season at all i.e. accept a 6 month hiatus).

And if there is to be Promotion & Relegation between Intermediate and Senior football from 2025, will Intermediate football also be switching to summer football? Junior football as well?

Or am I missing something?

[pineapple stu]

No, that's one of the fundamental idiocies inherent in the football structure here, and one which has to be sorted one way or another if that goal is to be achieved. But that's a hell of a lot easier said than done, I think.

[EalingGreen]

No, that's one of the fundamental idiocies inherent in the football structure here, and one which has to be sorted one way or another if that goal is to be achieved. But that's a hell of a lot easier said than done, I think.
Hmmm.

I can't help wondering whether Jonathan Hill isn't thinking something on the following lines:
"I suppose I have to do something for the 'problem child' in my grand Four Year Plan. I know, I'll introduce a pyramid, first step a 3rd tier by 2023 - shouldn't be too hard to cobble together 10 teams somehow. Though introducing P&R between Internmediate/Winter football and Senior/Summer football will be a bit of a bugger. Ah well, just set a target date of 2025 and let some other gombeen deal with it when the time comes - I'll be well gone before then."

Or am I too cynical?

[Big Ears]

No, that's one of the fundamental idiocies inherent in the football structure here, and one which has to be sorted one way or another if that goal is to be achieved. But that's a hell of a lot easier said than done, I think.

It'd be a problem for any Junior/Intermediate clubs looking into move into a 3rd tier, but not so for any of the underage teams that currently aren't operating at Senior level.

IMO while a 3rd level should be open to Non League clubs to step up and join, the foundation of it should be the underage teams. Kerry, Mayo, Carlow-Kilkenny, Kildare, Cavan-Monaghan.
That's 5 teams with reasonable facilities and playing area and an immediate pool of players to bring through into adult football.
If there was a big push to link up with 3rd level institutions and offer scholarships for those good enough to play at the level, it might help to attract players towards a league which realistically will need to be amateur/expenses only.

I'm aware 3 clubs from (parts) of the area named above have failed in the past, but with lessons hopefully learned and costs kept to a minimum you'd hope functioning in this tier wouldn't be a problem.
You then need 3 more teams imo to create a league.

Blueball seem to hint that they've intentions on stepping up to the mark and while I'd prefer first teams only, you could fill out the league with Rovers II and one other reserve side (Derry's 2nd team ?).

If there was still concerns about a difference in quality between the tiers, you could enforce promotion by playoff only, with the top 3rd tier team (except reserve sides) squaring off with the bottom of the First Division, which should lessen the risk of a poor team being too far out of their depth the following year.
Normally there's a big difference between the bottom couple of sides in the First Division and the rest of the First Division anyway, so I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't the case.

I'm not saying it's perfect, and some teams that try it may fail. But I think it would be our best option in pursuing a 3rd tier.

[JC_GUFC]

Blueball seem to hint that they've intentions on stepping up to the mark and while I'd prefer first teams only, you could fill out the league with Rovers II and one other reserve side (Derry's 2nd team ?).


Interesting - allegedly the funding model behind their club is a bit murky! The fact that their ex-manager and one of their ex-players are now incarcerated may not be totally coincidental.

I think you're spot on with the types of clubs that will join the third tier, Maynooth University Town another likely participant along the 3rd level lines you've suggested. Add to that 4 or 5 Reserve teams. I wonder would the Harps & Derry Reserve teams leave the Ulster Senior League to join this. That would pretty much spell the end of the USL (I think it's only 6 teams as it is). That may be no bad thing - it would leave just two "Senior Leagues" in the country - the MSL which is only Cork sides and the LSL which looks like the model every regional league should follow. It has "Junior" Divisions feeding into "Intermediate" Divisions.

The problem with regional divisions is that they need to be probably balanced in terms of ability. This wasn't probably done the last time and made the North/West region much weaker allowing both Mervue and Salthill to achieve promotion without much difficulty.

[2 Year Contract]

Kerry announce their interest in joining the league at senior level next season. This article mentions them joining the First Division but was it not 2023 that was mentioned regarding the third tier being set up?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/kerry-fc-apply-league-ireland-27128914

[Burnsie]

Scanlon was unconvincing about the third tier when he was interviewed on LOI Central earlier in the year, and I understand that, as of a few weeks ago, the Leinster Senior League (who would presumably be at least a potential source for entrant clubs) hadn't been contacted about it. No chance it happens in 2023 in my view.

[Glen Of Aherlow]

Given the population of the Maynooth , Celbridge , Leixlip area there surely has to be potential for a LOI team there

[pineapple stu]

Maynooth University Town were making overtures about stepping up, weren't they?

[Martinho II]

Given the population of the Maynooth , Celbridge , Leixlip area there surely has to be potential for a LOI team there

Didnt they try that with Kildare Co in Newbridge and look where it got us?

[Martinho II]

Maynooth University Town were making overtures about stepping up, weren't they?

Yeah think so stu!

[oldfan]

Given the population of the Maynooth , Celbridge , Leixlip area there surely has to be potential for a LOI team there
I'd suspect most of the population interested in LOI would already support a Dublin Club.
What about big Leinster Towns like Navan, Tullamore, Portlaoise?
If Longford can do it they should too.

[Kiki Balboa]

While it is great to be optimistic about expanding into regional towns, I think it is even more important for the FAI to make resources available for struggling LOI teams to continue to exist.

No point in a Kerry FC joining the League, if Athlone Town folds.

We have lost too many teams in the past two decades that now we (as in fans) want to rejoin. Efforts and resources should be there to help those at the bottom of the ladder to continue to grow. Hopefully that is included in the plan for a Third Tier.

[legendz]

Non LoI entities in the underage leagues:

U19
Kerry

U17
Cavan/Monaghan FC
Klub Kildare FC
Carlow Kilkenny FC
Kerry FC

U15
Cavan/Monaghan FC
Mayo FC
Klub Kildare FC
Carlow Kilkenny FC

U14
Cavan/Monaghan FC
Mayo FC
Klub Kildare FC
Carlow Kilkenny FC
Kerry FC

https://cms.sseairtricityleague.ie/sites/default/files/inline-files/EA%20Sports%20National%20Underage%20Leagues%20Fixt ures%202022.pdf

"2022 season which will see an introduction of overage players in the U19 League so that senior players returning from injury or in need of game-time can take part."

An Intermediary League should be considered as the stepping stone from underage to senior. The intermediary League can be a mix of non LoI entities, third level and then reserve teams. Allow a pathway for a progressive club to take on the bottom team from the First Division in a play-off.

[Kiki Balboa]

I also love speculating about new teams in the league, and what the Third Tier would be comprised of. Here is a list of former LOI related teams. My guess (if the Third Tier does happen) it will be comprised of most likely these teams/areas.

List of A-Championship Teams:
Mervue United
Salthill Devon
Castlebar Celtic
F.C. Carlow
Tralee Dynamos
Fanad United

LOI Underage Teams:
Cavan Monaghan FC
Klub Kildare FCMayo FC
Carlow/ Kilkenny FC

List of Regional LOI Teams now Defunct:
Kildare County F.C.
Kilkenny City
Sporting Fingal F.C
Monaghan United


I think there is a common thread of teams which I would expect to be in the Third Tier from that list, which would be a Kerry team (which probably be in the first- A Championship/ ), a Mayo Team (A Championship/underage), a Kilenny team (maybe together with Carlow - not sure the dynamics- A Champ, Underage, ex LOI), a Monaghan team (ex LOI, Underage), and a Kildare team (ex LOI/ Underage).

For Kildare, I know that Maynooth Town with the Univeristy is also intrested, but I think they have no connection to the LOI Kildare setup. Maybe you would have two Kildare teams. I think Malahide too could be a shout (maybe ex LOI is stretch with the connection to Sporting Fingal). Would also expect another Dublin City team, like St. Francis to try to join. Would love to see a Meath team and a Tipp team, but see no groundwork done for that.

[joey B]

I also love speculating about new teams in the league, and what the Third Tier would be comprised of. Here is a list of former LOI related teams. My guess (if the Third Tier does happen) it will be comprised of most likely these teams/areas.

List of A-Championship Teams:
Mervue United
Salthill Devon
Castlebar Celtic
F.C. Carlow
Tralee Dynamos
Fanad United

LOI Underage Teams:
Cavan Monaghan FC
Klub Kildare FCMayo FC
Carlow/ Kilkenny FC

List of Regional LOI Teams now Defunct:
Kildare County F.C.
Kilkenny City
Sporting Fingal F.C
Monaghan United


I think there is a common thread of teams which I would expect to be in the Third Tier from that list, which would be a Kerry team (which probably be in the first- A Championship/ ), a Mayo Team (A Championship/underage), a Kilenny team (maybe together with Carlow - not sure the dynamics- A Champ, Underage, ex LOI), a Monaghan team (ex LOI, Underage), and a Kildare team (ex LOI/ Underage).

For Kildare, I know that Maynooth Town with the Univeristy is also intrested, but I think they have no connection to the LOI Kildare setup. Maybe you would have two Kildare teams. I think Malahide too could be a shout (maybe ex LOI is stretch with the connection to Sporting Fingal). Would also expect another Dublin City team, like St. Francis to try to join. Would love to see a Meath team and a Tipp team, but see no groundwork done for that.

Wasn’t there a Ballymun team with ambitions to join? I’d expect them to be apart of it if there was another Dublin team involved…..

[nigel-harps1954]

Monaghan United aren't defunct. They're playing in the Ulster Senior League now.

They're almost certainly targeting the third tier, and I'd wager the likes of Letterkenny Rovers and Cockhill Celtic may just look to step in there too.

[sidewayspasser]

What would be left of the USL then?