Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[sadloserkid]

Ye remember yer chastising me about posts letting myself down?? Well even to jest at such things as the above is a low as it gets - put me off my tea you inconsiderate eh sad loser ffs like...

In truth Nesta I didn't even consider the effect that me floating the grisly spectre of Louth County could have on a Dundalk loyalist such as yourself. An oversight for which I am wholly contrite.

[EatYerGreens]

In truth Nesta I didn't even consider the effect that me floating the grisly spectre of Louth County could have on a Dundalk loyalist such as yourself. An oversight for which I am wholly contrite.

#WeeCountyWanderers

[Nesta99]

In truth Nesta I didn't even consider the effect that me floating the grisly spectre of Louth County could have on a Dundalk loyalist such as yourself. An oversight for which I am wholly contrite.

Well that at least, you may once again enter the towns of Dundalk and Drogheda without being a marked man!

It will be interesting to see what a fresh set of eyes makes of season alignment and how to introduce a pyramid structure.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2022/0616/1305299-canham-confirmed-as-new-fai-director-of-football/

[Nesta99]

#WeeCountyWanderers

Get out! Barred from Dundalk and Drogheda!! Which would be tragic for anyone..

[EatYerGreens]

Get out! Barred from Dundalk and Drogheda!! Which would be tragic for anyone..

People pay good money to get barred from better places.

[TheBoss]

Former FAI chief Bernard O'Byrne has ambitions of Meath club Athboy Celtic joining the league in the next 5 to 10 years. Very very optimistic on his part I must say...

https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2022/06/17/league-of-ireland-club-in-meath-in-the-next-five-to-10-years/

[joey B]

We’ll have 2 Meath clubs then!!

[oldfan]

Former FAI chief Bernard O'Byrne has ambitions of Meath club Athboy Celtic joining the league in the next 5 to 10 years. Very very optimistic on his part I must say...

https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2022/06/17/league-of-ireland-club-in-meath-in-the-next-five-to-10-years/
I'd have thought Navan would be more feasible from a population point of view?

[Nesta99]

We’ll have 2 Meath clubs then!!

Aye Drogheda being taken fully in to county Meath and off Louth's hands is long overdue!

I would say that Athboy in LoI is as likely as Eircom Park!

[legendz]

I'd have thought Navan would be more feasible from a population point of view?You would think so, along with following the example of Cavan Monaghan, Carlow Kilkenny, Mayo, Kildare and Kerry in joining the youth leagues.

[Martinho II]

Thats a surprise move from BOB whats population of Athboy does anyone know?

[sadloserkid]

Thats a surprise move from BOB whats population of Athboy does anyone know?

Wikipedia says a massive 2,445.

[Philosophizer]

Thats a surprise move from BOB whats population of Athboy does anyone know?
Being from the town and having played for the club I can tell you it's very small - about 3k.
Absolutely ludicrous suggestion from BOB to be honest.
It's a good little local club and all but they shouldn't realistically ever join the LOI. Luckily I don't think anyone takes BOB seriously. They've got some good publicity recently because Jamie McGrath is from the town. He played with the club underage and became the 1st Meath lad to play competitively for Ireland (when he started against Portugal I think). His family have been heavily involved in the club over the years and his dad coached in the club for many years.

I've stated this before here but the only town in Meath that realistically would have the population to support a LOI team is Navan, but weirdly soccer doesn't have much support there. It's a staunchly Gaelic football and rugby town.

Trim could possibly be an option but it's much smaller than Navan - around 10k I think. Trim Celtic are a decent club though and well regarded in the area in terms of local goodwill. Imo there isn't a club in Navan that has that.

Ashbourne has exploded in population in recent decades and is now one of the biggest towns in the county, but similar to Navan, GAA and rugby are very strong there. I lived in Ashbourne near the gaa club for a few years and the amount of money they've poured into gaa facilities is phenomenal, so they've an enormous head start on any possible LOI club trying to get local support.

Alas, I can't really see a LOI club being formed in Meath any time soon, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

[EatYerGreens]

Former FAI chief Bernard O'Byrne has ambitions of Meath club Athboy Celtic joining the league in the next 5 to 10 years. Very very optimistic on his part I must say...

https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2022/06/17/league-of-ireland-club-in-meath-in-the-next-five-to-10-years/

I know I said the league could do with a 'celtic' club, but this wasn't the route I had in mind :D

This is a pure vanity project for Bernard O'Byrne. Whatever the opposite of the midas touch is, he appears to have it when it comes to Irish football. He was the head of FAI security on the night the English were left to merrily dismantle Lansdowne Road's collection of wooden seats/benches. And he was CEO of the FAI for the Eircom Park project, which he personally spearheaded. Neither he nor the FAI showed much interest in the LOI during his tenure as CEO, so it's ironic that it is now the height of his ambitions for Athboy.

He was CEO of Basketball Ireland until last year, so is clearly looking for something new to occupy his time and has hit upon the idea of propelling a village of 2,500 people to Irish football's top table. Like an Irish Gretna. I'd be fairly confident that we won't see Athboy Celtic in the LOI. Ever.

[Nesta99]

Hard to know with BO'B for sure but I think he was really making the point that clubs should show ambition, like Athboy in LoI why not. From what Ive read he hasnt really said that LoI is the actual target of the club. It would make sense if he approached a senior club to have Athboy affiliated in some way, even for coach education and seeing whats needed for national underage levels. Would BO'B sit quietly in the background in such a partnership though!?

[Philosophizer]

To be honest, I don't think anyone in the town with an ounce of sense is taking this claim seriously.
More likely it's just a publicity stunt. Maybe he's trying to build on the recent Jamie McGrath publicity and drive up local support and memberships. (McGrath was the special guest a few weeks ago when they officially opened a new pitch in the town.)
Or maybe he's pushing for grants and thinks this type of claim will help his case or something.
As Nesta said, maybe he's just making a wider point that some clubs in the county should be more ambitious...

[EatYerGreens]

Hard to know with BO'B for sure but I think he was really making the point that clubs should show ambition, like Athboy in LoI why not.

Are you seriously asking why a tiny non-league club in a village of 2,500 shouldn't realistically aspire to be in senior football ? Sustainability for a start...


From what Ive read he hasnt really said that LoI is the actual target of the club.

He is literally quoted in that article as the Club's Chairman saying : ""Personally, I would set a challenge to my club to have League of Ireland football in Athboy within a five to 10-year framework".

[Nesta99]

Are you seriously asking why a tiny non-league club in a village of 2,500 shouldn't realistically aspire to be in senior football ? Sustainability for a start...



He is literally quoted in that article as the Club's Chairman saying : ""Personally, I would set a challenge to my club to have League of Ireland football in Athboy within a five to 10-year framework".

No im not asking why a tiny non league club from a small village shouldnt aspire to a senior club. I was saying that possibly B'OB was talking about having ambition, and in his mind thats LoI, sure why not try and aim for the highest level. I wasnt stating any opinion though of course I think its daft. Further up the thread I said Athboy in LoI is as likely as Eircom Park - both being B'OB driven 'projects'.

Yes he did make that quote but the word 'personally' indicates that it is his personal thinking and not necessarily that of the club. As I said, its hard to know with B'OB but it could and probably is most likely to be 'a reach for the stars' metaphor, rather than a statement of actual policy or plan.

Personally, I would set a challenge for Dundalk to win the champions league within 5 or 10 years - Is this a wish, desire, a metaphor for thinking big, or an actual proactive plan of intent by a club (even if I was DFC's chairman)? I see it as think big, be ambitions, sure why not it could happen, probably wont but sure whats the harm in giving it a go on the off chance. We did get the Dundalk, a European team in Ireland, stuff which was the Peak 6 ambition and attempted (and failed due to one individual) policy. I dont think B'OB comments are the same even n relative terms being more wishlist stuff. But as I started with 'Its hard to know with B'OB.



I wonder if similar discussions happened about the likes of Eibar back when they decided to aim for La Liga, yes the pyramid structure facilitated this, but the then 5k capacity ground, an average of 2700 attendances, and a budget of €3mil - quite LoI sounding actually, was probably scoffed at and Its pretty likely that there were plenty of rolling of eyes at the time in Madrid and Barcelona; but they eventually got there and stayed for a good few seasons. So such dreaming can become a reality but obviously very very rare and LoI doesnt quite the same draw for dreamers than La Liga;)

[EatYerGreens]

No im not asking why a tiny non league club from a small village shouldnt aspire to a senior club. I was saying that possibly B'OB was talking about having ambition, and in his mind thats LoI, sure why not try and aim for the highest level. I wasnt stating any opinion though of course I think its daft. Further up the thread I said Athboy in LoI is as likely as Eircom Park - both being B'OB driven 'projects'.

Yes he did make that quote but the word 'personally' indicates that it is his personal thinking and not necessarily that of the club. As I said, its hard to know with B'OB but it could and probably is most likely to be 'a reach for the stars' metaphor, rather than a statement of actual policy or plan.

Personally, I would set a challenge for Dundalk to win the champions league within 5 or 10 years - Is this a wish, desire, a metaphor for thinking big, or an actual proactive plan of intent by a club (even if I was DFC's chairman)? I see it as think big, be ambitions, sure why not it could happen, probably wont but sure whats the harm in giving it a go on the off chance. We did get the Dundalk, a European team in Ireland, stuff which was the Peak 6 ambition and attempted (and failed due to one individual) policy. I dont think B'OB comments are the same even n relative terms being more wishlist stuff. But as I started with 'Its hard to know with B'OB.



I wonder if similar discussions happened about the likes of Eibar back when they decided to aim for La Liga, yes the pyramid structure facilitated this, but the then 5k capacity ground, an average of 2700 attendances, and a budget of €3mil - quite LoI sounding actually, was probably scoffed at and Its pretty likely that there were plenty of rolling of eyes at the time in Madrid and Barcelona; but they eventually got there and stayed for a good few seasons. So such dreaming can become a reality but obviously very very rare and LoI doesnt quite the same draw for dreamers than La Liga;)

If it was all just pure random speculation on your part, you could've said that at the start :D

[Nesta99]

I did! I said 'I think'......etc. But yeah my point(s) can get lost in rambling nature of my posts ;) Its arguably all pure random speculation that he was being literal and he has genuine aspirations to get Athboy in to LoI. Until there is a 5 or 10 year plan produced with the aim of being a senior club we are all speculating on his comments.

[legendz]

If BO'B is to deliver LoI football in Meath, he'll have to try and get the district league united behind a representative team. The youth leagues are the place to start. BO'B says if Kerry can do it, Meath can do it. They sure can but a representative team for a county won't suit every where. It seems the right way for Kerry. Clubs coming together for a representative team happens in another sport in the county.

[sbgawa]

I did! I said 'I think'......etc. But yeah my point(s) can get lost in rambling nature of my posts ;) Its arguably all pure random speculation that he was being literal and he has genuine aspirations to get Athboy in to LoI. Until there is a 5 or 10 year plan produced with the aim of being a senior club we are all speculating on his comments.

With a scale model of the ground if you dont mind.
This is the LOI you know

[Kiki Balboa]

If BO'B is to deliver LoI football in Meath, he'll have to try and get the district league united behind a representative team. The youth leagues are the place to start. BO'B says if Kerry can do it, Meath can do it. They sure can but a representative team for a county won't suit every where. It seems the right way for Kerry. Clubs coming together for a representative team happens in another sport in the county.

I think the siutation is very different in Meath than maybe Kerry and Mayo.

The NEFL, the league that mens team in Meath play in, also have plenty of Louth teams from both Dundalk and Drogheda, while the the underage league NECL, has lots of teams from south Louth. Both leagues also have some from Cavan/ Monaghan as well. Hard to see any of these teams from outside of Meath caring enough about pushing for an underage-LOI team, when there is two in Louth (and one minor one in Monaghan), that many of their youngsters can play for. (To be fair too, the standard of football in these leagues has improved in the last while too).

The east side of Meath is a strong recruiting ground for Drogheda (while the north part is for Dundalk). Plenty of Meath GAA players played underage LOI for Drogheda. Mickey Newman for example.That option probably isnt the case for maybe a Kerry or Mayo. East Meath - Duleek/ Bettystown are basically suburbs of Drogheda. Plenty of very loyal Drogs fans are living in East Meath, as county, Meath kind of does have a LOI team already in Drogheda, because the hinterland in the south of the town stretches well into the county.

On top of that, the demographic changes of Meath means a lot of Meath isnt exactly 'loyal' to the county, as maybe a Kerry or Mayo man might be. Ashbourne and Dunboyne are Meath in name only. Its really Dublin. In fact, St. Pats recruit pretty effectively from the the county too.

So at least for the east side of Meath, there are as many LOI opportunities as with the best places in the country. It is well serviced. As for the west part of the county, it is probably under-developed in that regard.

But to conclude... I would say a Meath underage LOI team ala Mayo/Kildare/ Kerry will never happen (and maybe shouldnt).... Only chance would be for team from Navan or (unlikely Trim) wanting to expand

[EatYerGreens]

I think the siutation is very different in Meath than maybe Kerry and Mayo.

The NEFL, the league that mens team in Meath play in, also have plenty of Louth teams from both Dundalk and Drogheda, while the the underage league NECL, has lots of teams from south Louth. Both leagues also have some from Cavan/ Monaghan as well. Hard to see any of these teams from outside of Meath caring enough about pushing for an underage-LOI team, when there is two in Louth (and one minor one in Monaghan), that many of their youngsters can play for. (To be fair too, the standard of football in these leagues has improved in the last while too).

The east side of Meath is a strong recruiting ground for Drogheda (while the north part is for Dundalk). Plenty of Meath GAA players played underage LOI for Drogheda. Mickey Newman for example.That option probably isnt the case for maybe a Kerry or Mayo. East Meath - Duleek/ Bettystown are basically suburbs of Drogheda. Plenty of very loyal Drogs fans are living in East Meath, as county, Meath kind of does have a LOI team already in Drogheda, because the hinterland in the south of the town stretches well into the county.

On top of that, the demographic changes of Meath means a lot of Meath is exactly 'loyal' to the county, as maybe a Kerry or Mayo man might be. Ashbourne is Meath in name only. Its really Dublin. In fact, St. Pats recruit pretty effectively from the the county too.

So at least for the east side of Meath, there are as many LOI opportunities as with the best places in the country. It is well serviced. As for the west part of the county, it is probably under-developed in that regard.

But to conclude... I would say a Meath underage LOI team ala Mayo/Kildare/ Kerry will never happen (and maybe shouldnt).... Only chance would be for team from Navan or (unlikely Trim) wanting to expand

Good local knowledge Kiki. It also expertly shows why the whole 'every county should have an LOI club' notion is just misguided.

[Kiki Balboa]

Maybe this is a bit of tangent but I would also say, from growing up... Football in Meath was shocking bad. Country teams in Louth would reguarly beat Meath teams (including the Navan clubs), the NECL was far below the standard of the Dundalk league (with exceptions of course). I remember the grounds being shocking bad as well. Just fields with markings. Louth teams normally have very pretty good facilities, even if from the countryside (Walshestown, Albion Rovers, Bellurgan, Ardee Celtic etc. ). Its a geniune cultural shock that the worst grounds in Louth were the standard pitch in Meath. Exception, as one poster pointed out, was Trim Celtic, which is a proper club run well (from what I remember). They are well established at all levels.

I would definitley say it has changed in the last decade and a half. From what I seen, the football has gotten better at both senior and underage. The MDL Grounds are a great set-up, and there underage leagues are expanding in the number of teams. Where previously there was only Parkvilla in Navan at underage, you now have OMP and Navan Cosmos playing. The population of Navan, supported by Athboy-Kells-Trim is probably an area of the country without an LOI team that could support one. I still think you could have an LOI team there... but they will have to build the foundations differently than Mayo and Kerry.

[legendz]

Maybe this is a bit of tangent but I would also say, from growing up... Football in Meath was shocking bad. Country teams in Louth would reguarly beat Meath teams (including the Navan clubs), the NECL was far below the standard of the Dundalk league (with exceptions of course). I remember the grounds being shocking bad as well. Just fields with markings. Louth teams normally have very pretty good facilities, even if from the countryside (Walshestown, Albion Rovers, Bellurgan, Ardee Celtic etc. ). Its a geniune cultural shock that the worst grounds in Louth were the standard pitch in Meath. Exception, as one poster pointed out, was Trim Celtic, which is a proper club run well (from what I remember). They are well established at all levels.

I would definitley say it has changed in the last decade and a half. From what I seen, the football has gotten better at both senior and underage. The MDL Grounds are a great set-up, and there underage leagues are expanding in the number of teams. Where previously there was only Parkvilla in Navan at underage, you now have OMP and Navan Cosmos playing. The population of Navan, supported by Athboy-Kells-Trim is probably an area of the country without an LOI team that could support one. I still think you could have an LOI team there... but they will have to build the foundations differently than Mayo and Kerry. Killarney wouldn't get behind Tralee Dynamos but they will get behind Kerry FC. Just as we cannot magic up a club, we cannot magic up clubs forgoing years of entrenched rivalry to support a rival who decide to step up to the League of Ireland.
Supporters of Cobh Wanderers have absolute disdain for Cobh Ramblers?
"The population of Navan, supported by Athboy-Kells-Trim is probably an area of the country without an LOI team that could support one."
If these areas can row in behind a Navan club, great! Roll with it!
If there's any entrenched rivalry at all, there's a blank canvas opportunity to have representative youth football for that area. Give it a few years. It either establishes or not. That then can be the deciding factor on making the push to League of Ireland football or not.

[EalingGreen]

Very interesting thread, prompting a few thoughts, as follow.

1. If NI can have a pyramid from Junior, through Intermediate, to Senior, then there is no good (stress) reason why ROI cannot:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system
Even the women are getting in with it, with the Premiership currently comprising 8 teams (due to expand to ten), with 7 divisions beneath that (last two regionalised):
https://www.niwfa.org/ (Click on "Leagues")

2. Even the original pyramid builders 4,000 years ago knew that you build from the bottom up, not from the top down. In particular, for new clubs to commit to achieving and maintaining third tier status, they must know that there will be the safety net of a fourth tier.should they go through a bad spell and get relegated.
While promotion from beneath is the best way of ensuring sustainable competitive standards throughout.

3. The LOI's proposed schedule seems unfeasibly rushed:
"Commence consultation on the formation of an Irish football pyramid by Q4, 2022 with an agreed and transformed football pyramid structure in place by 2025"
https://www.fai.ie/domestic/news/fai-strategy-2022-2025-launched
It has taken the IFA/NIFL twenty-odd years to get to the present state, with continuous development, evaluation, and reform along the way. Here, for example, are the latest Licensing criteria for clubs wishing to play in the third tier or above, an 86 page document(!):
http://www.irishfa.com/media/37056/ifa-championship-promotion-manual.pdf
(Note the minimum stadia requirements in Annex D, from page 63 onwards)

4. I really don't understand how artificially elevating Youth Leagues can lead to consistent, sustained, country-wide clubs at adult level - at best it might lead to one or two teams emerging and becoming established (Kerry? Mayo?), but a lot more are surely needed for a third tier, never mind a supporting Intermediate level beneath.

5. There is no mention of how to get round the problem of summer/winter leagues, as it effects promotion and relegation to and from the third tier.

Now I should add, that I'm not saying any of this in order to "big up" the system in NI, never mind "do down" that in ROI - God knows we've got plenty of problems of our own in NI, while the existing LOI has many credits over the NIFL, not least playing standards and attendances.

But I have to say some of the suggestions for expansion seem to me to be far from reality. For example, I took a quick look at Athboy Celtic's Facebook page. They've got a nice, shiny new Clubhouse, overlooking a fine looking pitch, with two 6-a-side all weather pitches adjacent. And there's probably hard surface parking for 30 or 40 cars. All very good in itself, but there are absolultely no facilities for spectators, indeed not even a rope round the pitch.

Now I get that no-one is taking this particular proposal seriously, on here or elsewhere, but the fact that a former CEO of the FAI could even suggest it, without being laughed out of town, is closer to Father Ted than the Premier League.

And before anyone comes back to have a pop, I might add that as well as having a general nerd's interest in such matters, I am also thinking ahead to a possible All-Ireland league etc, which if properly done could help domestic football on both sides of the border. But before this latter could happen. both the LOI and the NIFL need to get their acts together.

[Nesta99]

Interesting post above Kiki. Long post alert, and im not sure I can get across my own experience of or thoughts on Navan/Meath and having a LoI team as its not at all straight forward with the eccentricities.

I spent weeks every summer as kid staying with family in Navan and sports communities were very different to what I experienced in Dundalk and elsewhere. It was/IS a town thats hard to profile for sporting organisations and this partly contributed to there never being a solid effort by any clubs that could join LoI . When working for the Sport Development section of LouthCoCo we often met up with our Meath counterparts and many a chat was had on this subject, and the consensus was there was no consensus that a senior club could work. They often spoke of the difficulty of allocating resources where it could be most effective - MDL ground was a good choice in the end but there was nerviness when it was formed, that bridges were being burnt by breaking away from another district league and that it could fizzle out if clubs didnt take up an invitation to join. They certainly never envisaged that it could grow to be the main regional leagues with over 50 clubs and many of them fielding multiple teams.

People that were kids from 1987 to 2001 (including that semi final series with Dublin), they tend to be very GAA and are still, but there hasnt been another surge in Meath support since 2001 (prior to that they tended to do something every decade that kept people interested and getting a boost with newcomers, they now tend to be a more passive type supporter i.e. you just follow your own county, watch them if they happen to be on tv, and if going to games it will generally be the latter stages of an all Ireland, the die hards are fewer with there being over 20 years since being at the business end of things over the summer. There are 17 senior GAA clubs in Meath, and of those some are always struggling to grow participation. Louth has 40+ clubs in contrast and dont have have the level of issues with participation to the same extent. The standard is poorer in Louth regardless of participation but thats a whole different discussion. .

Navan rugby club also had a good following in relative terms especially for the Towns Cup. Soccer was the niche sport in general not just LoI niche - there were pockets of support for Drogheda and even Dundalk but minimal though they did exist, and now after 2016 EL campaign, for bigger games a mini bus goes from Navan (and Kells) to Oriel Park.

Things changed a lot from late 90s and for about a decade as people from Dublin moved to Navan and other Meath towns. While a lot already had an affiliation to their Dublin LoI club, there was a jump in soccer participation. Conversely there was a decline in numbers playing GAA (although that was from high starting levels) it was felt that growth in soccer clubs was connected with a decline in All-Ireland success, and new residents didnt have a sense of connection with Meath GAA. so mid noughties the MDL really took off, had their nice facilities refurbished and extended and additional pitches went in. A good proportion of that growth wasnt local to Navan and environs with Louth, Monaghan and Cavan clubs joining. With population growth the sociodynamic of the town changed and schoolboy clubs were being swamped - there wasnt the amount of schoolboy clubs like you'd see in Drogheda or Dundalk for example and there was a big shortage of coaches. There were few options then after for footballers when they became too old for schoolboys unless players were good enough to play in the junior or intermediate game. A lot played in the AUL also.

Anyways....so the MDL evolved in to a North East regional league, was well run and the standard has been on the up. With a closer look and as Kiki alludes to, there are good reasons why Jamie McGrath was the first senior mens cap from Meath. On the fringes looking in you would think that football was really thriving in Navan but the majority of participating clubs were from other towns and regions

From chatting with coaches in Navan or from Meath over the years, they wouldnt say that a senior/LoI club in Navan is a banker at all, irrespective of the population. There isnt a club that can make that connect with people that they would get out and support so any potential club from Meath playing LoI would be need to be a new club and let time do its work where people start to relate to the club. Trim would be an exception where there is a club and history already there that people could buy in to. Something like Meath FC, especially if based in Navan would cause a load of hassle with Trim and Dunboyne clubs and maybe Athboy now.

[culloty82]

Very interesting thread, prompting a few thoughts, as follow.

1. If NI can have a pyramid from Junior, through Intermediate, to Senior, then there is no good (stress) reason why ROI cannot:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system
Even the women are getting in with it, with the Premiership currently comprising 8 teams (due to expand to ten), with 7 divisions beneath that (last two regionalised):
https://www.niwfa.org/ (Click on "Leagues")

2. Even the original pyramid builders 4,000 years ago knew that you build from the bottom up, not from the top down. In particular, for new clubs to commit to achieving and maintaining third tier status, they must know that there will be the safety net of a fourth tier.should they go through a bad spell and get relegated.
While promotion from beneath is the best way of ensuring sustainable competitive standards throughout.

3. The LOI's proposed schedule seems unfeasibly rushed:
"Commence consultation on the formation of an Irish football pyramid by Q4, 2022 with an agreed and transformed football pyramid structure in place by 2025"
https://www.fai.ie/domestic/news/fai-strategy-2022-2025-launched
It has taken the IFA/NIFL twenty-odd years to get to the present state, with continuous development, evaluation, and reform along the way. Here, for example, are the latest Licensing criteria for clubs wishing to play in the third tier or above, an 86 page document(!):
http://www.irishfa.com/media/37056/ifa-championship-promotion-manual.pdf
(Note the minimum stadia requirements in Annex D, from page 63 onwards)

4. I really don't understand how artificially elevating Youth Leagues can lead to consistent, sustained, country-wide clubs at adult level - at best it might lead to one or two teams emerging and becoming established (Kerry? Mayo?), but a lot more are surely needed for a third tier, never mind a supporting Intermediate level beneath.

5. There is no mention of how to get round the problem of summer/winter leagues, as it effects promotion and relegation to and from the third tier.

Now I should add, that I'm not saying any of this in order to "big up" the system in NI, never mind "do down" that in ROI - God knows we've got plenty of problems of our own in NI, while the existing LOI has many credits over the NIFL, not least playing standards and attendances.

But I have to say some of the suggestions for expansion seem to me to be far from reality. For example, I took a quick look at Athboy Celtic's Facebook page. They've got a nice, shiny new Clubhouse, overlooking a fine looking pitch, with two 6-a-side all weather pitches adjacent. And there's probably hard surface parking for 30 or 40 cars. All very good in itself, but there are absolultely no facilities for spectators, indeed not even a rope round the pitch.

Now I get that no-one is taking this particular proposal seriously, on here or elsewhere, but the fact that a former CEO of the FAI could even suggest it, without being laughed out of town, is closer to Father Ted than the Premier League.

And before anyone comes back to have a pop, I might add that as well as having a general nerd's interest in such matters, I am also thinking ahead to a possible All-Ireland league etc, which if properly done could help domestic football on both sides of the border. But before this latter could happen. both the LOI and the NIFL need to get their acts together.

On 2, ideally that fourth tier would itself be a provincial/regional league that would bridge the gap between LoI reserve teams and county league clubs - in Munster, for instance, that would include teams from the MSL, KDL, Limerick and District League, and Tipp South and District League, among others, though what would be ideal for that province mightn't work for Connacht-Ulster, perhaps.

[Kiki Balboa]

I think the Third Tier is a good step in building a pyramid though, because of the massive gap there is between the First Division and regional/intermediate leagues. Not only in terms of players, but also in resources. If a Kerry team were in the league this year, they would have faced 3 full-time teams (Cork, Galway, Waterford). Very few teams would want that risk, there is too big of a gap to overcome (nevermind the risky finance situation). Also, there really isn't an intermediate system in Ireland. You have the USL (Donegal league), LSL (Dublin league) and the MSL (Cork League), but they all more-or less act as local leagues, with some outsiders. I know in Louth a couple of teams play in the LSL, but then dropped out to the NECL, because, for them, it was a bit pointless. Long trips to Dublin, for very little prestige league, no local credit given. LSL was seen as the same as the NECL really.


You are definitely right about building it up from the bottom too, just im not sure that is proper first step. I think there is a problem with the junior/intermediate leagues because once you get down from the top LSL and MSL leagues, where do the regional leagues fit in. The standard of football might be higher in the leagues (if they are), but that also might be because the bigger regional areas have no real drive to improve. There is a low ceiling for the regional league teams (and probably for the LSL teams too) which means they stagnate. Creating a system were growth is rewarded (via promotions... access to play in prestigous leagues) is vital.


So, the Thrid Tier is a necessary first step because it fills the gap of a real top intermediate league and is a pretty big missing piece in Irish Football.

[EatYerGreens]

Killarney wouldn't get behind Tralee Dynamos but they will get behind Kerry FC. Just as we cannot magic up a club, we cannot magic up clubs forgoing years of entrenched rivalry to support a rival who decide to step up to the League of Ireland.
Supporters of Cobh Wanderers have absolute disdain for Cobh Ramblers?
"The population of Navan, supported by Athboy-Kells-Trim is probably an area of the country without an LOI team that could support one."
If these areas can row in behind a Navan club, great! Roll with it!
If there's any entrenched rivalry at all, there's a blank canvas opportunity to have representative youth football for that area. Give it a few years. It either establishes or not. That then can be the deciding factor on making the push to League of Ireland football or not.

The thing is though - all existing clubs will have some sort of neighbouring 'rivals'. It's the nature of both football in general and Ireland[s parish structures in particular. If a particular club decides to make the step up to senior football, then I doubt they care about their rivals 'rowing in' behind them. That wouldn't have been a concern for the likes of Longford Town or Finn Harps or Bray Wanderers when they all stepped up to the senior game. And most ordinary people aren't usually connected to non-league clubs in their area (or at least not strongly so). So once an area without a senior club gets one, then any ordinary people with a potential interest in a local team in the LOI will be drawn towards them - including from areas with previously rival teams in (e.g. Finn Harps drawing fans from a wide area). Those ordinary supporters won't care about the rivals up the road who are now a level below anyway. so irrelevant.

In short - feck the small town rivalry. The first club in an area to ascend to the senior game steals the advantage. If the area can sustain senior football then so be it. If that objective is such a marginal task as to be dependent upon which of a set of rival clubs made the jump first, then senior football probably isn't built on strong enough foundations in that area anyway.

[Philosophizer]

Very knowledgeable posts above from Kiki and Nesta on soccer in Meath and it's development over the years. Consider my cap doffed.
Regarding facilities, I'd say Athboy, along with Trim always had a decent pitch. They put big money into the convent grounds in the early 80s when the club first formed. I remember weekends as a youngster when matches were called off all over the county due to rain but Athboy's game went ahead. At the expense of not building a clubhouse they built a proper pitch with real irrigation and drainage etc. There was a period where the senior team played a bit outside the town but in recent years they've now built a second ground (both in the town) with more pitches, all weathers and finally a proper clubhouse. Athboy were always well run and had good people involved, they've just been limited by their small population.
Fair point above too regarding much of east and south Meath already being in the catchment area of established Louth and Dublin LOI clubs.
The only remaining area in Meath that could potentially develop a LOI club would be Navan/Trim/Athboy/Kells areas.
For me, the real elephant in the room here, and maybe what B'OB was getting at, is how underwhelming Navan soccer has been over the years given their size, especially since the population boom over recent decades. You'd imagine if any Navan club was run as well as Trim, or even Athboy or Kells they would have been been able to develop soccer a lot more in the town.

[Philosophizer]

Also worthwhile mentioning that Athboy are competing with a rugby club, indoor basketball club and decent gaa club (leinster junior football champs in 07) in the town too.
Their website states they've 300 registered members, which is fairly decent when you consider that's more than 10% of the towns population.

[GUFCghost]

Any chance of the two or three junior clubs in Navan merging to form a new club?

[legendz]

The thing is though - all existing clubs will have some sort of neighbouring 'rivals'. It's the nature of both football in general and Ireland[s parish structures in particular. If a particular club decides to make the step up to senior football, then I doubt they care about their rivals 'rowing in' behind them. That wouldn't have been a concern for the likes of Longford Town or Finn Harps or Bray Wanderers when they all stepped up to the senior game. And most ordinary people aren't usually connected to non-league clubs in their area (or at least not strongly so). So once an area without a senior club gets one, then any ordinary people with a potential interest in a local team in the LOI will be drawn towards them - including from areas with previously rival teams in (e.g. Finn Harps drawing fans from a wide area). Those ordinary supporters won't care about the rivals up the road who are now a level below anyway. so irrelevant.

In short - feck the small town rivalry. The first club in an area to ascend to the senior game steals the advantage. If the area can sustain senior football then so be it. If that objective is such a marginal task as to be dependent upon which of a set of rival clubs made the jump first, then senior football probably isn't built on strong enough foundations in that area anyway.Every area/region is different. No one solution for all. When Mayo players start moving beyond U19 level, they either follow what Kerry FC are trying to do or one club takes it on.

[Kiki Balboa]

Any chance of the two or three junior clubs in Navan merging to form a new club?

As far as I can tell, there is only one real junior club in Navan that has anyway of a proper schoolboys section is Parkvilla. Even at that, they are a club that for their catchment area (1oth largest urban area in the country), are very small. OMP United and Navan Cosmos have schoolboy teams... but I wouldnt call them proper schoolboy sections. They have normally always been senior teams.

Also, technically in county Meath, Ashbourne Utd, Dunboyne and Rathoath Harps are all staples of the North Dublin Schoolboys league and LSL, and dont compete in the NECL/NEFL (the more proper Meath league). Those clubs are far more competitive/ developed than Parkvilla would be.

-------------------
I actually find the topic hugely interesting. Drogheda, Dundalk, and Navan are towns of a similar size, in a similar place in the country. Yet, the football is radically different in each town. Each town has very different circumstances and very different infrastructures. You could nearly write a book on it.

[Philosophizer]

Towns like Ashbourne, Ratoath, Dunshaughlin and Dunboyne are very much in the Dublin sphere of influence in every way. A guy from Ratoath once admitted to me that they thought lads from beyond Navan were wild country men. To them, Navan was even borderline, at best.
So the county is quite split in many ways. There's the Dublin sphere of influence in the south, the Drogheda sphere of influence to the east, and then the Navan/Trim/Kells/Athboy area, which I think someone called 'proper' Meath above 🙂.
A LOI 3rd tier team in that area, based in Navan, would be interesting to see.
It might even put a stop to Trim hoovering up the best players from their surrounds, as those top players would be naturally drawn to the LOI team. Currently the top 6/7 players from Athboy actually play with Trim Celtic, which means the Athboy senior team is much poorer than it should be. They've spent most of the past 10 years not even in the top division, which makes B'OBs comments even more laughable. There was apparently a big dispute in Trim about that recently because most Trim guys couldn't get anywhere near the Trim Celtic 1st team, which contains guys from all over.

[joey B]

Do we think Mullingar would ever be considered for LOI again? I’ve no idea what the local situation is there in terms of competing with other sports buts it’s a large town that’s attempted LOI before….

[Mr A]

Do we think Mullingar would ever be considered for LOI again? I’ve no idea what the local situation is there in terms of competing with other sports buts it’s a large town that’s attempted LOI before….

I think we can just give up on Mullingar.

Not even just in terms of the LOI, just generally.

[EalingGreen]

Isn't it "putting the cart before the horse" to look at a town/district/county/region to see if they could rustle up a club to join the senior set-up, esp if that club is amateur, or even "generously expensed", never mind semi-pro?

Surely you need to start with already established clubs which have the potential to step up at some stage, of which there must be many throughout the country?

Which means giving them a proper structure within which to operate, so that the best of them (playing standard, stadium, facilities, structure, finances, support etc) can then make the step-up sustainably and organically.

I mean, if anyone had suggested a generation ago that eg Ballinamallard (fFounded 1975) or Warrenpoint Town (1987) would ever achieve senior status in NI as semi-pro teams, they'd have been laughed at. Or Dungannon Swifts (1949) a generation before that.

Yet all three (and others) made their way up from the bottom of the pyramid to the top, where they've all proven a welcome addition.

Of course, to set up a structure to facilitate that sort of evolution in ROI could take a decade (minimum) or two (more likely). But that is surely an argument for starting now, rather than grasping at some other process, no matter how unsuitable, simply because it gives a veneer of quick "progress"

[Philosophizer]

Any chance of the two or three junior clubs in Navan merging to form a new club?
I don't think it would be necessary to merge the clubs. A town of that size needs more than 1 club, especially at senior level anyway.
It's been mentioned above that Parkvilla are the main club in the town, and really, they should have got their finger out a long time ago and developed soccer in the town much more than they did. I remember in the early noughties they were still missing teams at multiple underage age groups. I'm not sure if it was down to a lack of volunteers, facilities or just teenagers dropping out. Either way, it's poor.
Hopefully they've come on a bit more now but I always got the impression they weren't v well liked in the region. Relations were generally decent between Trim-Athboy-Kells though. Maybe that's a natural consequence of them being the big town in the area so the small towns were always trying to prove they were just as good as Navan.

[EatYerGreens]

Isn't it "putting the cart before the horse" to look at a town/district/county/region to see if they could rustle up a club to join the senior set-up, esp if that club is amateur, or even "generously expensed", never mind semi-pro?

Surely you need to start with already established clubs which have the potential to step up at some stage, of which there must be many throughout the country?

Which means giving them a proper structure within which to operate, so that the best of them (playing standard, stadium, facilities, structure, finances, support etc) can then make the step-up sustainably and organically.

I mean, if anyone had suggested a generation ago that eg Ballinamallard (fFounded 1975) or Warrenpoint Town (1987) would ever achieve senior status in NI as semi-pro teams, they'd have been laughed at. Or Dungannon Swifts (1949) a generation before that.

Yet all three (and others) made their way up from the bottom of the pyramid to the top, where they've all proven a welcome addition.

Of course, to set up a structure to facilitate that sort of evolution in ROI could take a decade (minimum) or two (more likely). But that is surely an argument for starting now, rather than grasping at some other process, no matter how unsuitable, simply because it gives a veneer of quick "progress"

Whilst I agree with the general gist of what you're saying here, it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone like the FAI to analyse which large population centres (i.e. places with the key basic ingredient of potential support) don't currently have an LOI club, and speak to existing clubs thetre to encourage them to aspire to senior status in the future.

I think the examples you've given from the north are flawed. Warrenpoint got relegated last month after a fairly poor season in which I think they didn't register a win until after the split in the table? They were clearly out of their depth in the top division, and will b einteretsing to see if they make it back again. I doubt Ballinamallard will be troubling the top division in NI again any time soon either, and if they do will not be there for long. Even Dungannon, who've made a cup final, Europe etc over the last decade or so, tend to be near the lower end of the table and get poor crowds. If clubs with bigger potential like Ards ever get their act together again, you could see the likes of Dungannon fall out of the top tier to make way for them. So I don't think relatively brief flourishes with the big boys for the likes of Warrenpoint and Ballinamallard proves much to be honest. If anything, it shows the IL's lack of strength within the IL that very small clubs like them can rise to the top table.

[EalingGreen]

Whilst I agree with the general gist of what you're saying here, it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone like the FAI to analyse which large population centres (i.e. places with the key basic ingredient of potential support) don't currently have an LOI club, and speak to existing clubs thetre to encourage them to aspire to senior status in the future.

Nothing unreasonable at all about "encouraging them to aspire etc", in fact it should be a key responsibility for the FAI to grow the game.

But that is a whole lot different from suddenly elevating a club which had never showed much sign of long-term sustainability at their new level (eg Cabinteely), or from magically conjuring up a new club entirely and expecting it to survive (eg Kilkenny).

Rather the FAI should instead be implementing and supporting a structure within which the best and most ambitious clubs should be able to find their level, whether top, second or third tier.



I think the examples you've given from the north are flawed. Warrenpoint got relegated last month after a fairly poor season in which I think they didn't register a win until after the split in the table? They were clearly out of their depth in the top division, and will b einteretsing to see if they make it back again. I doubt Ballinamallard will be troubling the top division in NI again any time soon either, and if they do will not be there for long. Even Dungannon, who've made a cup final, Europe etc over the last decade or so, tend to be near the lower end of the table and get poor crowds. If clubs with bigger potential like Ards ever get their act together again, you could see the likes of Dungannon fall out of the top tier to make way for them. So I don't think relatively brief flourishes with the big boys for the likes of Warrenpoint and Ballinamallard proves much to be honest. If anything, it shows the IL's lack of strength within the IL that very small clubs like them can rise to the top table.
Are you saying that any team which is unlikely ever to win the title should not be allowed into the top tier? In that case, you can eg reduce the EPL to half a dozen teams. And how many wqould you allow iinto the LOI PD?

Instead, all those three offer semi-professional football at senior level, while attracting sufficient support locally to live modestly within their means.

Now I can't see that Swifts will ever threaten the big IL teams from Belfast etc, but instead have to settle for permanent mid-to-low table status but so what? Would you tell eg Motherwell they shouldn't be in the SPL, Crystal Palace in the EPL or Finn Harps in the PD?

Simply put, they and the other two have successfully and sustainably brought senior football to a new region, and if Ballinamallard and Warrenpoint's natural level is the second, or even third tier, so what? Would you deride eg Cheltenham Town, Peterhead or Longford similarly?

As it happens, Mallards were pretty competitive in the Championship last season, before falling away in the last couple of months, so may come again. While Warrenpoint will be replaced, ironically*, by near neighbours Newry City AFC. Either way, both should be alright at that level for another bit and even if they're not, there is still a third tier for them to play in, alongside eg former top tier clubs like Bangor and Distillery, or newer arrivals like Ballymacash and Dollingstown.

Which i thought was the whole point of a pyramid: teams may rise up and down according to their ability, means, ambition and (semi-)professionalism.


* - I say "ironically", since when the original NCFC folded for financial reasons, most of their players went to the Point, before Newry's fans, who had held onto the Showgrounds, formed a Phoenix Club and climbed the NIFL pyramid back to the top level.

[GUFCghost]

Killkenny were not magically conjured up. They were founded as EMFA in 1966. They changed their name to improve their catchment area as did Galway United (Claddagh Rovers) and Dundalk (Great Northern Railway).

I think we need to build actual regional intermediate leagues and bring back the A-Championship at the same time. The new A-Championship should consist of the current LOI youth teams like Kildare & Mayo and reserve sides, while the regional leagues should actually reflect the counties in each province whilst relegating to/promoting from the district leagues. That'll give the current FA franchises a chance, if they fail they'll be replaced by clubs from the regional leagues.

[Nesta99]

]Isn't it "putting the cart before the horse" to look at a town/district/county/region to see if they could rustle up a club to join the senior set-up[/B], esp if that club is amateur, or even "generously expensed", never mind semi-pro?

Surely you need to start with already established clubs which have the potential to step up at some stage, of which there must be many throughout the country?

Which means giving them a proper structure within which to operate, so that the best of them (playing standard, stadium, facilities, structure, finances, support etc)


I mean, if anyone had suggested a generation ago that eg Ballinamallard (fFounded 1975) or Warrenpoint Town (1987) would ever achieve senior status in NI as semi-pro teams, they'd have been laughed at. Or Dungannon Swifts (1949) a generation before that.

Yet all three (and others) made their way up from the bottom of the pyramid to the top, where they've all proven a welcome addition.

Of course, to set up a structure to facilitate that sort of evolution in ROI could take a decade (minimum) or two (more likely). But that is surely an argument for starting now, rather than grasping at some other process, no matter how unsuitable, simply because it gives a veneer of quick "progress"

I doubt there would be too many that would argue against what yer saying. It would help solve the little rivalries, obstructionism, little Englander types, if there is a meritocracy pyramid. There would still be hurdles within such a structure when clubs are denied promotion due to inadequate facilities for example. Within this development I dont think we should rule out expediting clubs to higher levels if they show that meet criteria. Both organic growth and fast track can be done. Getting to the point where the whole footballing community is on the same page is what takes up time, the carrot and the stick will be needed, In the mean time the LoI/FAI et al need to show that it is better to be included in the process than be isolationist and left behinds

[EalingGreen]

Killkenny were not magically conjured up. They were founded as EMFA in 1966. They changed their name to improve their catchment area as did Galway United (Claddagh Rovers) and Dundalk (Great Northern Railway).

You're quite right, I should have cited Sporting Fingal. (A mistake made more inexcusable since I was always tickled by EMFA and the moniker "Every Man a Football Artist"!).



I think we need to build actual regional intermediate leagues and bring back the A-Championship at the same time... ... while the regional leagues should actually reflect the counties in each province whilst relegating to/promoting from the district leagues. That'll give the current FA franchises a chance, if they fail they'll be replaced by clubs from the regional leagues.
Intermediate grade football being an essential element of any pyramid (obv), then I agree that it should be organised on a regional basis.

However, I don't understand why you cleave to a County set-up as the basis. A county set-up may suit GAA, just as a Provincial set-up suits rugby, but football is different, in several respects. For example, Co.Louth (population 128k, area 826km sq) supports two senoir LOI clubs, while neighbouring Co.Meath (195k, 2342km sq) has never done so. Ditto eg Cork and (ahem) Kerry. There must be a reason why this is so, and until that changes somehow, you must work round it.

Which all comes back to my long held opinion that it is clubs, not towns, cities, counties,provinces etc which matter, and which must be the building blocks of any pyramid, regardless of what theoretical "catchment" or geographical designation thay're located in.

In particular, you need clubs established in what I would call "proper" football towns eg Sligo Rovers, Finn Harps or Derry City.

Meaning I would suggest splitting ROI into, say, half a dozen roughly equal Regional Associations, plus maybe Dublin, or even Dublin North and South, each to adminsiter the game at a local level, with Junior leagues providing approximately equal standards of play, resources and facilities et.

From there you could promote the top clubs to participate in Intermediate grade football, with correspondingly higher standards. These might be divided eg into Intermediate North, Intermediate Midlands and Intermediate South, each supporting its own divisional set-up

And once you've estabished those, each would promote a single club to the third tier of Senior football, and so on.

Meaning that every single club has (in theory) the opportunity of getting promoted from bottom to top on a performance basis, providing they meet the minimum standards of stadium, facilities, finance and administration required for each level along the way.

As Ive said before, if little old Norn Iron could achieve this from its own much more modest resource base, then there is absolutely no reason why the ROI couldnt also.

Which is why I cannot understand why the FAI doesn't simply look north for a template which they could then adapt to suit their own particular requirements:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system

[EatYerGreens]

Nothing unreasonable at all about "encouraging them to aspire etc", in fact it should be a key responsibility for the FAI to grow the game.

But that is a whole lot different from suddenly elevating a club which had never showed much sign of long-term sustainability at their new level (eg Cabinteely), or from magically conjuring up a new club entirely and expecting it to survive (eg Kilkenny).

Rather the FAI should instead be implementing and supporting a structure within which the best and most ambitious clubs should be able to find their level, whether top, second or third tier.

I agree. I didn't say clubs should be magicked up. I don't support franchise football. Kilkenny City were an established club before they joined the LOi in 1985 as EMFA btw. Kildare is probably the example you were looking for (?)


Are you saying that any team which is unlikely ever to win the title should not be allowed into the top tier? In that case, you can eg reduce the EPL to half a dozen teams. And how many wqould you allow iinto the LOI PD?

No I was just pointing out that if those clubs are poster children for progress up a pyramid, then IMO it's flawed.


Instead, all those three offer semi-professional football at senior level, while attracting sufficient support locally to live modestly within their means. n

Warrenpoint certainly don't attract enough interest locally for anything. Aren't they kept going by a benefactor ? They get literally a few dozen home fans at games - so once you exculde family and friends of players, they essentially have damn-as-near-to no fans. That's not sustainable for any club.


Simply put, they and the other two have successfully and sustainably brought senior football to a new region

Warrenpoint is essentially a commuter town for/adjunct to Newry. I therefore don't think it's fair to claim they've evangelised senior football into virgin territory. The Mallards definitely have. Dungannon less so, as Armagh and Portadown are both less than 15 miles away (so it's hardly an area uncatered for in the game).

[EalingGreen]

No I was just pointing out that if those clubs are poster children for progress up a pyramid, then IMO it's flawed.

Really?

Ballinamallard came from nowhere first in Junior football, then to Intermediate level and finally to senior level in a little over 30 years, in a small county which had never hosted Senior football before. True they needed a rich local benefactor to provide the seed corn, but by the time this was discontinued, they had sufficient support within the community to be self-sustaining, including owning a ground and training facilities which are at least as good as those at a few LOI FD clubs.

While Warrenpoint equally came from nowhere and maintained Senior football in an otherwise GAA-dominated area while the established local club in Newry was out of contention. True, they needed a benefactor - nothing wrong with that so long as he's reliable - and they might fall back eg to the 3rd tier or below, but so what? I mean, who has been damaged by any of that?

As for Swifts, if they took longer, that was only because there was no pyramid for the first 40-odd years, but since then they've gone on to become firmly established at Senior level, with a ground I'd guess is better than several FD clubs. And while they may be geographically close to Armagh or Portadown to the East, their catchment is actually Tyrone and further West.

All three have provided an outlet for locals to become attached to football at all levels (fans, administraors, coaches, etc), while providing a modest p-t wage for players, many of whom have gone on to bigger IL clubs, or even further eg internationals Little, Carroll and McGinn, at Rangers, Man U and Celtic.

I guarantee you none of this would have happened without a pyramid; instead theyd likely be tootling along in the Fermanagh & Western, Mid-Ulster or Newry & Districts Leagues etc.

And more pertinently to this thread, I have no doubt whatever that there must be loads of clubs* in the LOI who could make similar progress, but for the want of a comparable pyramid, it simply isn't happening.


* - Athboy has twice the population of Ballinamallard, for instance.



Warrenpoint certainly don't attract enough interest locally for anything. Aren't they kept going by a benefactor ? They get literally a few dozen home fans at games - so once you exculde family and friends of players, they essentially have damn-as-near-to no fans. That's not sustainable for any club.

Yes, they have a benefactor, but even after he left for Cliftonville for a period, they still got by. And last season, when results were terrible, they still averaged nearly 500 paying spectators a game. Of course that was boosted by away support for the Blues and Glens etc, but even then they got 500-odd eg for Larne and Glenavon. Maybe their players all have extraordinarily big families?
But as I said, even if they fall away now, what will have been the harm?:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/irish-league/warrenpoint-town/barry-gray-admits-that-relegation-will-instigate-summer-of-change-at-warrenpoint-41584303.html




Warrenpoint is essentially a commuter town for/adjunct to Newry. I therefore don't think it's fair to claim they've evangelised senior football into virgin territory. The Mallards definitely have. Dungannon less so, as Armagh and Portadown are both less than 15 miles away (so it's hardly an area uncatered for in the game).
See above.

[culloty82]

I thought Kildare essentially started out as a Newbridge Town project, and adopted the name to broaden their appeal?

[pineapple stu]

There's plenty of clubs outside of NI that show that the pyramid set-up isn't flawed at all. Cove Rangers and Kelty Hearts winning the third and fourth tiers in Scotland last season. Wimbledon and Wigan in England (technically elected to the league, but from what ordinarily would have been promotion spots, not randomly selected by the FA or elected because they happened to have asked). Hoffenheim and Red Bull Leipzig in Germany.

Give clubs a means and reason to progress, and the problem of where best to look for new clubs will sort itself. And as we saw in the discussion on the comparison between the LoI and the Conference in England, there'll be a beneficial trickle-down effect too.


I thought Kildare essentially started out as a Newbridge Town project, and adopted the name to broaden their appeal?
I think also Newbridge were worried about losing their place in the LSL if the jump didn't work out (like what happened Tralee Dynamoes in Kerry) so needed to set up a new club for the LoI.