Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[Buckett]

Why just city clubs?

[2 Year Contract]

No more Treaty United II until Treaty United get back into the First Division.

Not ideal that a whole team of players (Treaty United II) have nowhere to play because a different team (Treaty main team) performed badly. It would also leave an odd number of clubs in the league too

[nigel-harps1954]

Why would Treaty, one of the few amateur/part time sides in the league, look to add the cost of a reserve team to their finances?

[culloty82]

Indeed - if there were to be reserve teams participating, it's more likely to be Premier clubs involved, as in the A Championship era, purely on a financial basis, rather than for urban v rural reasons.

[legendz]

Why just city clubs? Doesn't have to be just city clubs. Just selected city clubs for example purposes.


Not ideal that a whole team of players (Treaty United II) have nowhere to play because a different team (Treaty main team) performed badly. It would also leave an odd number of clubs in the league tooNot ideal but if Treaty United were relegated, there is no other option in that scenario.
If the Third Tier is to have an open door for new clubs or second teams, there is a high probability of ood numbers of clubs.


Indeed - if there were to be reserve teams participating, it's more likely to be Premier clubs involved, as in the A Championship era, purely on a financial basis, rather than for urban v rural reasons.
Some Premier Division clubs detested having to field a team in the A Championship while some First Division clubs embraced it.

Why would Treaty, one of the few amateur/part time sides in the league, look to add the cost of a reserve team to their finances?Treaty have four district leagues at their doorstep. Two in Limerick, Clare and North Tipperary. Ideally city clubs should have the resources to field a second team but you are indeed quite right that Treaty aren't best placed at the moment to field a second team.

[legendz]

https://www.finalwhistle.ie/soccer/oscar-traynor-cup/

18 league are competing in the Oscar Traynor Cup. There hasn't been any games played in the Ulster section yet.
3 from Leinster and 2 from Munster progress to the quarter-finals. Guessing 2 from Connacht and 1 Ulster are also to progress to the quarter-finals.

[nr637]

All quiet with this idea and the FAI!

[Buckett]

https://www.extratime.com/articles/32454/league-of-ireland-expansion-planned-for-meath/

[legendz]

League of Ireland expansion planned for Meath

https://www.extratime.com/articles/32454/league-of-ireland-expansion-planned-for-meath/
Interesting news that Meath are looking to join the League of Ireland. Joining the national youth leagues should be an important first step. Kerry League and now Kerry FC have set the blueprint for rural regions where there isn't one big urban town that cannot support an LoI club on it's own.

[nigel-harps1954]

Navan is a decent shout in fairness, but I have zero faith in Bernard O'Byrne putting together anything remotely sustainable there.

[Nesta99]

Kerry, Mayo, Meath, Kildare... well if you cant beat GAA to funding become them. I know you cant have a senior club in every town but does a county klub:rolleyes: really get buy in across a county? Its reasonable to hope so when you already have a county based sporting model that can fill one of the biggest stadiums in Europe a couple of times a year but honestly isnt a county team more a political thing to prevent very big ego noses being knocked out of joint if not in the picture somehow; It has less to do with supporter appeal and more to do with appeal to multiple clubs' officers (eg Galway 'United' FC circa 2010-13?!).

Maybe its the Louth experience that has influenced my thinking, thats its small size has made it particularly parochial and why Louth FC suggestions have been laughed away and that LoI fans in Dundalk and Drogheda would just quit rather than bother with such rubbish. But does a large county like Kerry really pull in significant support from beyond the home ground/town catchment. Cork is an example where a club representing the county town/city draws support from the county (sorry Cobh fans) but that was profile driven from the periods when Cork city clubs werent popping like a pan of popcorn. Would it not be better trying to appeal to a denser populated centre like Navan, called Navan and focus efforts rather than attempt a one size fits all, it still represents the county, might get the likes of Trim to look at things in a new pyramid system (Happy Christmas Legendz). We really are suffering from the lack of merit based incremental upward movement of clubs outside the senior game, that grow support organically as part of success - the only way to grow a multi generation support base in this country imo, and where historical success sustains things during barren spells - when a clubs resilience and tradition is truly tested. Parachuting in one size fits all county sides are as likely to work in the long run as an American sport investment firm in Dundalk - Kildare County gone, Kerry in its infancy so too soon to tell etc.

The only potential difference from the current state of play from past abortive attempts is that there may be some more solid ground to build on with national underage leagues. Wexford Youths can be deemed a countywide club success story probably, but were founded first and foremost to give local youths a route to senior football and where maybe the bigger picture was seen, though maybe Mick Wallace was just a formidible force and Wexford clubs rowed in behind his vanity project as it was described disparagingly at the time by some?

[culloty82]

With Kerry, the main incentive for going down the county route was financial, in that sponsors, chambers of commerce, investors etc were going to be more attracted to an entity using the "Kerry" branding, rather than if either Dynamos or Killarney Celtic had done so on a standalone basis. It also helped to get the KDL onside to ensure there were no turf wars between junior and senior levels for the LoI underage leagues, which has been an issue for clubs around the country in the past, and ties in with the youth pathway, which regardless of player recruitment, will continue to be a priority.

[Nesta99]

Ok I can accept that as start up LoI club revenue needs to be generated fairly quickly and hence picking a larger 'brand' to promote to sponsors and investors is one way tp try. Beyond that the fear is that sombody will feel left out and take the hump - its not a box that should need ticking when plans are being drawn up. Id hope that discussions with a KDL are on strategic parterships to develop elite talent and not to prevent turf war. The conversation on both may be similar but obviously the reason should differ.

It was/is a reoccuring theme in a lot of places nationally, in the past junior and youth football were enboldened by their role in propping up the former regime in the FAI, I hope by the time some of thee clubs join senior football that ths FAI will turn a deaf ear to those sabotaging the games and player development.

[legendz]

Kerry League and Mayo League competed in the League Cup for many years. It just seems to suit both regions to have one club. There is no one size that fits all.
Mullingar and Athlone would possibly be a good rivalry? Two urban areas on opposite sides.
Carlow and Kilkenny is a good partnership. Possibly the template for Laois and Offaly?
If LoI clubs can have the local district league(s) on board, they will be better placed for attaining professionalism.
Treaty United has 4 district leagues to form partnerships with. The midwest is currently underperforming.

[nigel-harps1954]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/all-senior-and-underage-football-to-be-aligned-to-same-calendar-year-under-new-fai-plan/a1362480465.html

Potentially big news from FAI. As well as the implementation of the incoming third tier LOI, they're finally looking like taking control of all football in the country with 8 regional administrative centres and a pyramid system across the country, all running the calendar season.

Glad to finally see someone tackle this. Remains to be seen what sort of push back there'll be on it, but with upcoming consultations, I'm sure we won't be long finding out.

[legendz]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_football_league_system

If this is accurate, there are 4 district leagues in Connacht, 12 in Munster, 14 in Leinster and 3 in Ulster. 8 regional administrative centres might work out as 1 in Connacht, 3 in Munster, 3 in Leinster and 1 in Ulster.
MUNSTER
West Munster - Clare, Limerick Desmond, Limerick & District and Kerry
Cork - all district leagues in Cork.
East Munster - Tipperary North, Tipperary South, Waterford & District and West Waterford/East Cork.
LEINSTER
North Leinster leagues, Dublin leagues and South Leinster leagues.

[JC_GUFC]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_football_league_system

If this is accurate, there are 4 district leagues in Connacht, 12 in Munster, 14 in Leinster and 3 in Ulster. 8 regional administrative centres might work out as 1 in Connacht, 3 in Munster, 3 in Leinster and 1 in Ulster.
MUNSTER
West Munster - Clare, Limerick Desmond, Limerick & District and Kerry
Cork - all district leagues in Cork.
East Munster - Tipperary North, Tipperary South, Waterford & District and West Waterford/East Cork.
LEINSTER
North Leinster leagues, Dublin leagues and South Leinster leagues.

I wonder will they move away from the provincial divides.

A South-East League with the best from Tipp, Waterford, Kilkenny, Wexford, Wicklow & Carlow could make sense.

[sbgawa]

Fantastic to see this. The FAI will need to bulldoze the "consultation process" as most of these particuler Turkeys have consistently voted against anything that impinges on their own particular fiefdoms.
The DDSL in particuler needs to be cleared out. They swapped back to "winter football" in the middle of the who;e Delaney fallout when the FAI were distracted and we now have the scenerio that most kids are "theoretically playing football in Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb when in reality with pitch closures they hardly play at all , particularly the lower division clubs who tend not to get access to clubs astro pitches.

[WexCar.]

I wonder will they move away from the provincial divides.

A South-East League with the best from Tipp, Waterford, Kilkenny, Wexford, Wicklow & Carlow could make sense.

I'd leave Tipp out of that group TBH, travelling from WX & most of Wicklow to Tipp is a pain...plus I wouldn't consider the vast majority of Tipp as being in the south-east.

If ignoring provincial divides, which they should do if it makes sense, then Tipp would make more sense to be mixed in with Offlay & Laois as at least you have the M7 & M8 to make travel easier.

[kksaints]

I wonder will they move away from the provincial divides.

A South-East League with the best from Tipp, Waterford, Kilkenny, Wexford, Wicklow & Carlow could make sense.

South-East league would be a very interesting prospect as there's a sense in some of the counties especially Kilkenny and Carlow that certain teams like Evergreen, Freebooters and New Oak have outgrown their current leagues. A combined South-East league with those teams and the like if North End, Gorey Rangers and St Michael’s would be great for local soccer imo.

[culloty82]

Clare was traditionally the poor relation of the Munster counties, but Newmarket winning the FAI Junior Cup last season has shown the improvement in that league. Clare, Kerry and Limerick might make a natural Mid-West League, but in terms of both standards and geographic completeness, you'd need to add the Cork clubs into the mix.

[yurt]

As with everything FAI related I'll believe it when I see it but I'm actually so happy that at least it seems they are at least trying to implement the right things post D***ney.

I've always thought the biggest issue within Irish football is the misaligned seasons making any pyramid impossible.

The 8 regions sounds like a good number to me. In theory at least should massively improve the standard of junior football and give young players and managers a place to improve before making the step up through the levels.

[ontheotherhand]

If I live to see a pyramid structure to football in Ireland I'll die a happy man.

[Elfman]

As others have mentioned, my reaction to the news was cautious optimism.

Personally, when I heard about the 8 regions, I assumed it would involve only breaking up Leinster into 5 regions and leaving the other provinces the same. Bigger task to break up the rest of the provinces but hopefully they're up to the task!

[legendz]

Personally, when I heard about the 8 regions, I assumed it would involve only breaking up Leinster into 5 regions and leaving the other provinces the same. Bigger task to break up the rest of the provinces but hopefully they're up to the task!
If Ulster and Connacht are 1 region each, Munster is at least 2. North Tipperary, North Cork and West Cork might align with Kerry, Clare and Limerick. Cork City, East Cork, South Tipperary and Waterford the other region. Leinster then might be 4. North Dublin, South Dublin, North Leinster and South Leinster.

[Elfman]

Agree with you there. And your point above, that Munster could arguably be three regions. The number of clubs, district leagues and sheer size of the province surely warrants it.

It'll be a difficult balancing act considering distances, number of clubs to consider and historical rivalries, not to mention those fierce defenders of their own patch, but I'm excited this is getting serious attention, even if it all ends in the usual disappointment.

But I thought the same about the national underage leagues and they still haven't been canned yet!

[holidaysong]

I seen on OrielWeb that reserve teams are to be included in the new third tier but on a voluntary basis. I remember when we had the A Championship that Premier Division clubs had to enter a team, so this is a good approach.

I'd be interested in the thoughts of Shamrock Rovers fans on how their B team in the First Division was seen. Was there obvious benefits in developing future players or seen more as a waste of resources?

[nigel-harps1954]

I don't think there should be any provincial regions. It should be based on geography, number of leagues, distances of travel, and number of registered players.

[pineapple stu]

Eight regions for a third tier sounds excessive - am I picking that up right? You'd surely have big gaps in the divisions between top and bottom

Obviously great to see it's being properly considered at least

[nigel-harps1954]

My reading of the sitatuation was a third tier North/South, and regional associations below that.

[pineapple stu]

Ok, that's better in fairness

Might make promotion/relegation awkward, but let them get it in place and tweak then if needs be

[culloty82]

Yes, think the idea with the fourth level is that in practice, most of the regional champions will decline promotion to the third tier, but it would give them a greater level of competition than the district leagues, and the more ambitious clubs will work towards meeting the licence requirements for the higher divisions.

[pineapple stu]

Certainly sounds a reasonable compromise. Any clubs willing to take the step up should be more than adequately rewarded you'd hope. A system that discourages promotion would defeat the purpose

[Burnsie]

i'm not being facetious, but "rewarded "with what? Not with money, is for damn sure

[pineapple stu]

i'm not being facetious, but "rewarded "with what? Not with money, is for damn sure
I think money would have to be one thing though - better prize money. We're commenting on the increase in LoI prize money and saying it should be higher; we can't really turn around to ambitious regional sides and say we'll promote them from one of eight regional fourth tiers into one of two regional third tiers (maybe with extra requirements around licensing or youth teams), but there's nothing in it for you. No-one will accept - we can guess at that because no-one's accepting now - and that defeats the point.

[EatYerGreens]

Love this, though will be interesting to see how the FAI get it passed the various vested interests.

Anyone taking bets on the first LOI club to fall down to the regional leagues (Level 4) and the first club to rise from that level to the 2 LOI tiers?

[sbgawa]

I seen on OrielWeb that reserve teams are to be included in the new third tier but on a voluntary basis. I remember when we had the A Championship that Premier Division clubs had to enter a team, so this is a good approach.

I'd be interested in the thoughts of Shamrock Rovers fans on how their B team in the First Division was seen. Was there obvious benefits in developing future players or seen more as a waste of resources?

We cant wait for the 3rd tier to happen as we are currently losing some of our best acadamy kids to other teams as they want to play first team football Cole Omorehionwan springs to mind, left to play for Bray but at times lst year we could have done with him at CB. There are plenty of others.
Was also good for players coming back from injury and fringe players like Darragh Nugent who came on a ton and is now a fixture in the first team

It was definitly seen as a positive and not a waste of resources.
With a Rovers B in place they can stay and play first team football and also be available to step up if needed to the first team.
Its not explicitly stated but im assuming when the 3rd tier comes in the under 20's will dissappear for clubs entering second teams??
Also i hope B teams can be promoted to the second tier but obviously not above.

[culloty82]

The mention (almost thrown in as an aside) of "partnership clubs" as an alternative to a reserve team is also intriguing - could imagine Leinster Senior League teams working with Shelbourne, to give an example, or one of the Munster Senior League clubs co-operating with Cobh.

[ontheotherhand]

I seen on OrielWeb that reserve teams are to be included in the new third tier but on a voluntary basis. I remember when we had the A Championship that Premier Division clubs had to enter a team, so this is a good approach.

I'd be interested in the thoughts of Shamrock Rovers fans on how their B team in the First Division was seen. Was there obvious benefits in developing future players or seen more as a waste of resources?

It was good. The other clubs were absolute *****s for blocking it. We'd be miles ahead by now.....

But seriously it was very useful in terms of giving senior minutes to players who weren't ready for our first team. A lot of the players who would have been in that B team to develop had to leave Rovers to get first team football. Some would have made it to our first team if they'd had that bridge e.g. Dylan Duffy who went to UCD and then on to Lincoln. He developed over the course of a season really. Others would have just benefitted from an integrated system where they stayed with the same team all the way through.

We suffer without it now as our 19s have nowhere to go but leave. It's a bit of a broken link from the academy to the first team that would be great to see fixed.

[cláirseach]

I'm not a Rovers fans but I was quite interested in the seconds. My take is that it certainly worked for player development, but ultimately probably not much for Rovers themselves.

[yurt]

I reckon the uptake from teams wanting to enter a reserve team will be quite high. It's hard to know if this will actually be good for the growth of the game here or not.

Personally think the more players we have playing at a higher level the better so think a third tier filled with reserve teams is probably good for the player pathway even if it's awful for the club pathway.

Wouldn't like to see any reserve sides in the first division.

[Buckett]

There's no chance of B team players being allowed move up and down to the first team outside of the transfer windows

[legendz]

If district leagues feed into 8 regional leagues which feed into two third tier leagues, where will a Mayo FC or a Meath FC fit into that structure?
Is there also a possibility of a repeat of the Galway United, Mercury and Salthill situation? 3 clubs where only one is realistically sustainable for a professional club?
The youth leagues which have built up and become established in recent years have predominantly allowed clubs join from regions without LoI representation. I'm not convinced that the third tier should move away from that approach. The third tier should be open for elite licences for second teams from the LoI and non LoI clubs that have joined the youth leagues.

[Elfman]

If district leagues feed into 8 regional leagues which feed into two third tier leagues, where will a Mayo FC or a Meath FC fit into that structure?
Is there also a possibility of a repeat of the Galway United, Mercury and Salthill situation? 3 clubs where only one is realistically sustainable for a professional club?
The youth leagues which have built up and become established in recent years have predominantly allowed clubs join from regions without LoI representation. I'm not convinced that the third tier should move away from that approach. The third tier should be open for elite licences for second teams from the LoI and non LoI clubs that have joined the youth leagues.

This is a good point and my short answer is that we'll probably see Mayo FC join the LOI in 2026 before we see the 8 seperate regions. I haven't seen any firm dates for Meath FC but happy to be corrected there.

I don't believe you'll see the same problems with Mervue/Salthill/GUFC if you link the pyramid properly as they'll only end up in the same level if Mervue & Salthill get there on merit. And there would be space for one of the 3 to fall back into if performances suffer. Proper licensing also helps.

I'd be more worried about Mervue & Salthill repeatedly declining promotion because they prefer being the big fish in a small pond!

I agree with you in theory but in practice I think there might be a struggle to get enough LOI teams willing to fund a B team in the 3rd tier. It's just the four non-Loi teams currently (Mayo, Kildare, CK United & Cavan/Monaghan) or am I missing a few?

[Another Bohemia]

This is a good point and my short answer is that we'll probably see Mayo FC join the LOI in 2026 before we see the 8 seperate regions. I haven't seen any firm dates for Meath FC but happy to be corrected there.

I don't believe you'll see the same problems with Mervue/Salthill/GUFC if you link the pyramid properly as they'll only end up in the same level if Mervue & Salthill get there on merit. And there would be space for one of the 3 to fall back into if performances suffer. Proper licensing also helps.

I'd be more worried about Mervue & Salthill repeatedly declining promotion because they prefer being the big fish in a small pond!

I agree with you in theory but in practice I think there might be a struggle to get enough LOI teams willing to fund a B team in the 3rd tier. It's just the four non-Loi teams currently (Mayo, Kildare, CK United & Cavan/Monaghan) or am I missing a few?

I'd say a few of the Dublin based teams would be open to having a b team in the 3rd tier depending on costs. Rovers have obviously had one previously so they would be prime candidates. Pat's seem to have a good pathway set up and having another step up from the 20's to the first team would likely make sense for them. Bohs have had a few players out on loan to first division teams the last few seasons and I'd assume the preference would be to keep them in house and get competitive minutes in a men's league than letting them out on loan and potentially losing them. If those 3 clubs opt for a b team you're already at 7 participants and I'm sure that there are more I'm not thinking of.

[sbgawa]

Promotion to the second tier should be allowed for B sides. If you finish bottom of the first division you should be relegated.
You could limit it to 2 teams if people are worried about there being to many B teams in first division.
if Dundalk and Bohs were Div 1 and Rovers won the third tier they play off for a place, .

[legendz]

Promotion to the second tier should be allowed for B sides. If you finish bottom of the first division you should be relegated.
You could limit it to 2 teams if people are worried about there being to many B teams in first division.
if Dundalk and Bohs were Div 1 and Rovers won the third tier they play off for a place, .
I disagree. The third tier should be the highest level for second teams. First Division clubs have been clear about not wanting second teams.
Mayo, Kildare and CK seem the only non LoI clubs that will be ready for a third tier. It would take the inclusion of at least 5 second teams for a third national tier of 8 to get off the ground. That should be the starting point for the third tier. Getting district leagues to link in with 8 regional leagues will be the more difficult part.

[fionnsci]

I think there would be big potential for a team in Swords. There's a population of 40k people in one of the fastest growing areas in the country, and a good distance from Bohs/Shels. The Sporting Fingal experiment obviously failed but being based in Santry with a long term aim to move to Rush/Lusk wasn't a great plan.

If Shelbourne had moved to Swords instead of staying in Tolka, for example, I could have seen a similar level and interest and growth to Rovers in Tallaght. I appreciate that's not what the Shels fans wanted and I'm grateful Tolka is staying, but I think there's space for an indigenous Swords team. Not sure if there's any interest locally but I see Swords Celtic have a lot of space and pitches on the northern edge of the town.

[Martinho II]

I think there would be big potential for a team in Swords. There's a population of 40k people in one of the fastest growing areas in the country, and a good distance from Bohs/Shels. The Sporting Fingal experiment obviously failed but being based in Santry with a long term aim to move to Rush/Lusk wasn't a great plan.

If Shelbourne had moved to Swords instead of staying in Tolka, for example, I could have seen a similar level and interest and growth to Rovers in Tallaght. I appreciate that's not what the Shels fans wanted and I'm grateful Tolka is staying, but I think there's space for an indigenous Swords team. Not sure if there's any interest locally but I see Swords Celtic have a lot of space and pitches on the northern edge of the town.

Didnt realise Swords is that big. Im sure if they had a team in loi Im sure Dublin Airport or one of the airlines could be a shirt sponsor. A trick has being missed here. Balbriggan is close to also

[legendz]

If there was interest in Swords in plotting a course for the LoI, they would be better off joining the youth league first and build up the connection within their community. Kerry competed in the youth leagues from 2016 to 2022 before joining the First Division. 7 seasons of building connections within the community.