Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[Shinkicker]

The problem with a 12 team division is you end up with 33 games instead of 36........ 15 or 16 home matches instead of 18 and 3 matches against your closest rivals (which tends to generate the biggest crowds) instead of the current 4.
Admittedly you could re arrange the league with a top half bottom half split etc etc to ensure some of the above but i favour the 10 myself.
Particularly as it means there are very few meaningless matches with 1 to 4 for the European places it normally means at least 6 teams dreaming of qualifying and 2 or 3 trying to avoid relegation/relegation play offs
Maybe when the third division comes in and there is a big overall shake up things might change.
I like the current system play each other 4 times. If they do eventually get up to 12 teams and play each other 3 times and it would be a good time to bring back the league Cup. I dont like the idea of splitting leagues, teams are in that league to play teams of all abilities and take their chance.

[legendz]

I like the current system play each other 4 times. If they do eventually get up to 12 teams and play each other 3 times and it would be a good time to bring back the league Cup. I dont like the idea of splitting leagues, teams are in that league to play teams of all abilities and take their chance.
The European competitions are going to use a so-called Swiss model in the next 3 year cycle of never ending format changes. In the CL and EL, there will a 36 team group. All teams will play 8 games, 2 teams from 4 ranking levels.
The ECL will be a 36 team group with 6 matches each, 1 team from 6 ranking levels.
If a 10 team First Division wanted to maintain 32 games, the first series of games games could use the Swiss model format for the first 5 games of the season, playing 1 team from 5 ranking levels. Followed by 3 series of 9 games each, it would complete a 32 match season.
This is not a format that will be adopted any time soon, if ever. Just an example of a different approach to the split model. No divisive split at the end. Start the season playing an equal number of teams from each ranking level. It's about as fair as you'll get when 27 games for 10 teams is too short and 36 games for 10 teams might be too much.

[Philosophizer]

https://westernpeople.ie/2022/08/18/breaking-mayo-club-approved-for-e2-8m-grant-for-development-of-facilities/

I wonder if this is an indicator of some kind of move for Westport.... If Westport are not trying to move to LOI, but another Mayo team is, this looks like a misuse of public money.
This grant for the new facilities in Westport is also good news for Sligo Rovers, who announced an official partnership with Westport a few months ago - https://www.westportunited.com/articles/65842

[legendz]

Cork, Waterford and Galway should have the resources to become established in the Premier Division. That will have Drogheda and Shelbourne looking over their shoulders. Expanding the LoI from 19 to 24, if possible, in two divisions of 12 might suit many clubs instead of a third tier.

[culloty82]

Interesting update from Carlow-Kilkenny, who shall henceforth be known as "CK United" - are they getting prepared for a senior application for 2024?

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[Martinho II]

Interesting update from Carlow-Kilkenny, who shall henceforth be known as "CK United" - are they getting prepared for a senior application for 2024?

1597239853305192451

Would love to see a team from that part of the country again. I imagine it would be based in Buckley Park. Miss going to matches that part of the country. I havent being up there since 2005 when Kilkenny City knocked us out of the FAI cup.

[EatYerGreens]

CK United would be a terrible name for an LOI club - so from that point alone I would be surprised if it was a move down that route.

They also state that their ambition is to have sustainable first team football - which being in the LOI First Division would most probably be the antithesis of :D

[NeverFeltBetter]

The jokes write themselves there.

[2 Year Contract]

Yeah CK United FC is a poor name for a club, should’ve gone with Football Union of Carlow and Kilkenny which could obviously be abbreviated too if they feel it’s too long

[EatYerGreens]

Yeah CK United FC is a poor name for a club, should’ve gone with Football Union of Carlow and Kilkenny which could obviously be abbreviated too if they feel it’s too long

'Clubs Of Carlow Kilkenny' is the winning name. Who wouldn't want to call themselves a C.O.C.K. fan ?

[legendz]

Cavan/Monaghan FC, Klub Kildare FC and Carlow Kilkenny FC were at U17 level this year. 2025 or 2026 are the likeliest seasons that either might make the step up. A Harps supporter is dismissive of Cavan/Monaghan. Monaghan United might return?

[culloty82]

Interestingly, both Kildare and CK United are moving up to the U19s for 2023, but as Legendz says, Kerry needed a few seasons at that level before making a senior move:

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[outspoken]

Interestingly, both Kildare and CK United are moving up to the U19s for 2023, but as Legendz says, Kerry needed a few seasons at that level before making a senior move:

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Good to see Dundalk moving up the WNL ranks, I find it a crying shame such a football mad town doesn't have a senior womens side, especially with all the Euro money in recent years.

[legendz]

2025 would appear to be the earliest that CK and Kildare would join the League of Ireland based on their current trajectory. Nearing time for a decision. Will they be invited to apply for the First Division or will a third tier be formed?

[Kiki Balboa]

Im still not fully convinced that these 'county franchise' teams should be the uniform approach in expanding the LOI. Just because it might work for Kerry, doesnt mean it should be the only option across the country. For example, 'Klub Kildare' maybe a worse option than a Newbridge Town or Maynooth.

I also hope there are resources available to teams like Athlone, Cobh and Wexford for being able to grow as clubs. No point in Kerry coming into the league, if another disappears. A bigger fight should have been made to keep Kildare County and Kilkenny City in the League. It takes more resources to bring clubs back into that area than it would have to keep them.

Also, I feel like it comes down to funds for facilities for a lot of would-be teams- which is just not available.

[legendz]

Im still not fully convinced that these 'county franchise' teams should be the uniform approach in expanding the LOI. Just because it might work for Kerry, doesnt mean it should be the only option across the country. For example, 'Klub Kildare' maybe a worse option than a Newbridge Town or Maynooth.

I also hope there are resources available to teams like Athlone, Cobh and Wexford for being able to grow as clubs. No point in Kerry coming into the league, if another disappears. A bigger fight should have been made to keep Kildare County and Kilkenny City in the League. It takes more resources to bring clubs back into that area than it would have to keep them.

Also, I feel like it comes down to funds for facilities for a lot of would-be teams- which is just not available. Agreed, there is no one size fits all. Kerry League have represented Kerry in the youth leagues. Kerry FC is a natural evolution from there. Kerry are the first club to work their way up through the youth leagues, earning their stripes. The main blueprint to follow is that interested entities build up through the youth leagues.

[David BOHie]

Im still not fully convinced that these 'county franchise' teams should be the uniform approach in expanding the LOI. Just because it might work for Kerry, doesnt mean it should be the only option across the country. For example, 'Klub Kildare' maybe a worse option than a Newbridge Town or Maynooth.

I also hope there are resources available to teams like Athlone, Cobh and Wexford for being able to grow as clubs. No point in Kerry coming into the league, if another disappears. A bigger fight should have been made to keep Kildare County and Kilkenny City in the League. It takes more resources to bring clubs back into that area than it would have to keep them.

Also, I feel like it comes down to funds for facilities for a lot of would-be teams- which is just not available.


You think a team with an underage structure from 14-19 with a 10 year history by the time they play senior football is going to be worse than a random team from one town randomly changing their name to the county and expecting people to support it?

Do you think many people from Naas supported what they viewed as a Newbridge team with a different crest?

This new model of LOI expansion hasn't been tried before. It's 10 years of groundwork in the county before playing senior football. It's not a Sporting Fingal.

Towns in Ireland on their own are broadly too small to support a LOI team and need support from nearby towns and the broader county so you cannot alienate support from rival towns.

The expansion to 22 LOI teams will probably come from Kerry, Mayo FC and Klub Kildare (maybe CK United) and they'll be a lot more successful than any of the teams that came and went over the last 20 years.

I would like to see how Monaghan would be getting on nowadays too if they had the youth structures that Cavan-Monaghan have now. If there is a solid flow of youth players coming up from the area would you get much more support as opposed to a team based largely of Dubs? I'd guess so. Even if it was just friends and family of locals going to the games. Maybe one or two a season would become permanent fans.

The issue is keeping the teams in the league. Are Cobh and Athlone viable long term? Wexford may have periods where they have a good manager but their stadium is miles out of the town so it's hard to see them ever getting consistent support. I think the FAI will really need to help thes clubs strategically if we do want them to continue to have a professional game with a good geographical spread.

[legendz]

I would like to see how Monaghan would be getting on nowadays too if they had the youth structures that Cavan-Monaghan have now. If there is a solid flow of youth players coming up from the area would you get much more support as opposed to a team based largely of Dubs? I'd guess so. Even if it was just friends and family of locals going to the games. Maybe one or two a season would become permanent fans.

The issue is keeping the teams in the league. Are Cobh and Athlone viable long term? Wexford may have periods where they have a good manager but their stadium is miles out of the town so it's hard to see them ever getting consistent support. I think the FAI will really need to help thes clubs strategically if we do want them to continue to have a professional game with a good geographical spread.A Harps supporter sees Monaghan United as a more long-term prospect than Cavan Monaghan.
The First Division will feature amateur status for the foreseeable future. As long as clubs are providing a pathway for the best youth in their area, it is a positive. If the Premier Division progressed to all clubs having a long-term viable full-time setup, that will be great progress.

[EalingGreen]

Towns in Ireland on their own are broadly too small to support a LOI team and need support from nearby towns and the broader county so you cannot alienate support from rival towns.

Finn Harps manage somehow to survive in a town(s) of 5k people, Longford in 10k, Cobh in 13k and Sligo and Wexford in 20k. While in NI, Coleraine are pulling in 2.5k crowds in a town of 20k, and Larne (population 19k) get 1.8k crowds. Glenavon manage in Lurgan (25k), Portadown (22k) now supports 2 senior clubs, while Dungannon (14k), Ballyclare (10k) and Warrenpoint (9k) all manage ok, at one level or another. Even Ballinamalllard, a village of 1.5k people, gets by.

Meanwhile, to facilitate expansion in the LOI, an all-Ireland league has been proven to be a mirage, new "franchise" clubs have been tried and failed, adding Reserve teams was also considered, but rejected, and now elevating youth/county teams is being tried with Kerry. But even assuming Kerry succeed, and another couple more after them, what then? You'd still be stuck with 22 or 24 senior clubs and that's it.

Seems to me that this is all trying to "square a circle", when it is the circle itself (i.e. present model) which is not fit for purpose. Far better to do what virtually every other country does, including comparable ones like eg Scotland, Denmark and NI, and develop a pyramid. And you don't build a pyramid from the top down, you do it from the bottom up. Which means starting with Junior football clubs and structures and then developing Intermediate football likewise, so as to provide viable clubs which can eventually progress to Senior level.

Of course, this all takes considerable time, commitment and resources etc. But that is only an argument for starting now, rather than scratching around instead for a "silver bullet" which only ever turns out to be a "sticking plaster" (if I may mix my metaphors).



The issue is keeping the teams in the league. Are Cobh and Athlone viable long term? Wexford may have periods where they have a good manager but their stadium is miles out of the town so it's hard to see them ever getting consistent support. I think the FAI will really need to help thes clubs strategically if we do want them to continue to have a professional game with a good geographical spread.
In the end, you can't go on keeping clubs on "life support". or worse still, keep resurrecting them after they'e gone bust, you have to recognise that clubs which aren't being run properly should be let go*. But that need not be a problem if you have a pyramid beneath them. For as well as providing somewhere for struggling clubs to go while they address their problems, a pyramid will also provide replacements clubs as well.


* - We saw that in NI eg when Newry (population 27k) went under - nearby Warrenpoint (10k) were able to take their place. And by the time a few years later when Warrenpoint got relegated, Newry had sorted their problems and risen back up the pyramid to got promoted back to the Premiership in their place.

[legendz]

In the end, you can't go on keeping clubs on "life support". or worse still, keep resurrecting them after they'e gone bust, you have to recognise that clubs which aren't being run properly should be let go*.
On life support for clubs, clubs have to cut their cloth. If their current circumstances dictate amateur status, that's what it has got to be.
The pyramid has been discussed enough. The first step is linking district leagues to regional leagues. The appetite doesn't seem to be there for it.
For it to be a possibility, a number of district league committees would have to have a shared committee for the provincial league or the provincial association would take a more active role in working with the district leagues.

[Buller]

Finn Harps manage somehow to survive in a town(s) of 5k people, Longford in 10k, Cobh in 13k and Sligo and Wexford in 20k. While in NI, Coleraine are pulling in 2.5k crowds in a town of 20k, and Larne (population 19k) get 1.8k crowds. Glenavon manage in Lurgan (25k), Portadown (22k) now supports 2 senior clubs, while Dungannon (14k), Ballyclare (10k) and Warrenpoint (9k) all manage ok, at one level or another. Even Ballinamalllard, a village of 1.5k people, gets by.
Would a lot of those towns perhaps have no competition from Hurling and Gaelic? Newry likely had population split up there with GAA and contributed to their demise?


Meanwhile, to facilitate expansion in the LOI, an all-Ireland league has been proven to be a mirage, new "franchise" clubs have been tried and failed, adding Reserve teams was also considered, but rejected, and now elevating youth/county teams is being tried with Kerry. But even assuming Kerry succeed, and another couple more after them, what then? You'd still be stuck with 22 or 24 senior clubs and that's it.


To facilitate LOI expansion? It was a third party who proposed it and you know that. It wasn't part of any devious master plan!

An all-Ireland league has been proven to be a mirage? It was rejected by the IFA and 3 IL clubs before it was given a chance. The proposal was sound and had broad support in NI to continue to the next stage. I think all LOI clubs and nearly 20 other IL clubs wanted to press forward with it to the next stage at the time. IFA put the foot down and prevented them for doing so.

Hopefully Kerry succeed yes, would be great to have another successful franchise as Wexford have turned out to be, spreading LOI football to another corner of the island.

I'm perfectly happy with 20+ LOI tbh, never have been a believer in the pyramid as a must have - its more a nice to have. League is growing at the moment without it. There's examples all over the world of leagues which dont have promotion and relegation all the way down to pub leagues.

[pineapple stu]

I'm perfectly happy with 20+ LOI tbh, never have been a believer in the pyramid as a must had - there's examples all over the world of leagues which dont have promotion and relegation all the way down to pub leagues.
Is there an example of one which is as badly run as ours though, and has such a struggle for senior teams?

The pyramid setup is used throughout Europe and most of the world for a reason - it works.

[Buller]

Is there an example of one which is as badly run as ours though, and has such a struggle for senior teams?

The pyramid setup is used throughout Europe and most of the world for a reason - it works.

I just cant see how, for example, admitting Salthill Devon and Mervue back into the league via promotion from a regional league, will be of any benefit. They'll spend a ton of money travelling - still have no fans - and potentially eat into Galway Uniteds small pie.

I actually think it would be a bad thing in that scenario.

[pineapple stu]

If there was a pyramid, they'd have gotten relegated out of the LoI in their first season, and probably wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place.

Done properly, it encourages clubs to push themselves to higher levels, it means you're more likely to naturally find sustainable clubs with a bit of a fanbase rather than nut-cases like Dublin City/Sporting Fingal/etc, and means clubs come into the LoI on a promotion high, and not scrambling around for players and even a ground last-minute a la Cabinteely, who had 1k at early games but had the wind taken out of their sails by a poor start to the season.

[EatYerGreens]

Is there an example of one which is as badly run as ours though, and has such a struggle for senior teams?

Is there an example of one with a small population where domestic football is only the fourth most popular spectator sport ? Otherwise you're not comparing like wiht like.

[pineapple stu]

Fourth most popular spectator sport? You're hardly counting rugby (effectively two teams playing 10 home games a season) in that? Or hurling, a game (sadly) not really watched in most of the country? I've been at Wicklow hurling games with smaller crowds than a UCD match. Dual counties are rare and really the two main GAA sports should count as one.

But every country in Europe has a pyramid, even Lithuania (a small population where basketball is the number one sport), Finland (a small population where ice hockey is the number one sport) and Wales (a small population where rugby is arguably the number one sport)

Most countries in Europe have an equivalent of rugby here - a popular non-football sport where a pro league is supported - and it doesn't stop them having a proper football pyramid.

And you've not even tried to show why your point is even relevant

So let's not go using that as an excuse.

[EalingGreen]

Would a lot of those towns perhaps have no competition from Hurling and Gaelic?Hurling is very much a niche/minority sport in NI, outside of a few villages in rural Antrim or Derry etc, so no real competition there.

It's very different with Gaelic football however. Lurgan is a clear majority Nationalist town and even Portadown is 1/3rd(?) Nationalist. Dungannon is majority Nationalist and is notably strong in GAA, also has a big rugby tradition, while Tyrone is strong GAA territory generally. Warrenpoint and Newry are both heavily Nationalist majority, while South Down is a GAA stronghold. And even Ballinamallard, Unionist though the village is, is in (rural) Fermanagh, which is very mixed. (The county town of Enniskillen, whose 15k population is evenly mixed, has one GAA club, but 6 football clubs!).

As for rugby, it is broadly as popular in Ulster/NI as it is in Leinster or Munster and much more so than in Connacht, while there's probably also at least as much hockey and cricket played in NI as there is in ROI, niche sports though they may be.


Newry likely had population split up there with GAA and contributed to their demise?
I don't know exactly what happened at Newry Town, but I gather that the club owners/board screwed up badly. However, the Showgrounds remained in the hands of the supporters, thank goodness, and they built a new Phoenix club', which has risen nicely from the ashes. The point being that Newry is what I call a "proper" football town, like eg its neighbour Dundalk, which is why it has produced such footballing greats as Pat Jennings, Peter McParland and, er, Coilin Clarke!

More generally, it is a notable strength of IL football that nearly all the clubs own their own stadium, which gives some measure of financial security. I suspect that it may be a relative weakness in LOI football that many clubs do not?



To facilitate LOI expansion? It was a third party who proposed it and you know that. It wasn't part of any devious master plan!

An all-Ireland league has been proven to be a mirage? It was rejected by the IFA and 3 IL clubs before it was given a chance. The proposal was sound and had broad support in NI to continue to the next stage. I think all LOI clubs and nearly 20 other IL clubs wanted to press forward with it to the next stage at the time. IFA put the foot down and prevented them for doing so.
I'm not going to go into the whys and wherefores of the failure of any an all-Ireland league to emerge (sighs of relief all round!), I merely used the term "mirage" to denote that it isn't going to happen, at least not any time soon.



I'm perfectly happy with 20+ LOI tbh, never have been a believer in the pyramid as a must have - its more a nice to have. League is growing at the moment without it. There's examples all over the world of leagues which dont have promotion and relegation all the way down to pub leagues.I'll leave it to better qualified posters like Pineapple Stu and others to analyse the applicability (or otherwise) of a pyramid system to football in ROI.

But NI, with a population which is only 40% of that in ROI - and a somewhat less wealthy one at that - manages to support 24 Senior teams in its top two divisions, fed and supported by an Intenediate and Junior pyramid, with (relatively) new clubs like Warrenpoint, Ballinamallard and Annagh emerging to replace formerly successful senior clubs like Newry, Bangor and Distillery who may have fallen on hard times for one reason or another. So I have no doubt at all that whatever one thinks of the state of football in NI generally, without a pyramid, we would be considerably worse off without it.

P.S. The above situation has developed despite the (sad) loss of a major club, Derry City, from our second city a generation ago. Were eg Cork City to transfer out of the LOI to somewhere else, how weakened would LOI football be by that?

[EatYerGreens]

If there was a pyramid, they'd have gotten relegated out of the LoI in their first season, and probably wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place.

Done properly, it encourages clubs to push themselves to higher levels, it means you're more likely to naturally find sustainable clubs with a bit of a fanbase rather than nut-cases like Dublin City/Sporting Fingal/etc, and means clubs come into the LoI on a promotion high, and not scrambling around for players and even a ground last-minute a la Cabinteely, who had 1k at early games but had the wind taken out of their sails by a poor start to the season.

How can you create a pyramid if the structures beneath the top 2 divisions appear largely disinterested/unwilling?

How would a pyramid work if a lot of clubs just aren't interested in promotion (therefore making it a bit of a farce at times) ?

Discuss.

[pineapple stu]

Those are the problems at present of course. They're for the FAI to overcome, and to incentivise clubs to get over themselves. (And the FAI exacerbated this problem by the daft idea of splitting out different seasons between LoI and non-league)

But the evidence from all over Europe is that pyramid systems encourage clubs to push themselves, provide new blood and healthy competition, whereas our model of sticking a pin in a map or taking the first club to raise their hand has failed repeatedly.

And the fact that some people go to watch rugby games has literally nothing to do with any of that.


I'm perfectly happy with 20+ LOI tbh, never have been a believer in the pyramid as a must have - its more a nice to have. League is growing at the moment without it.
Just on this - last year, with 19 clubs, the LoI was the smallest it's been since two divisions were introduced.

Hard to argue we have 20+ clubs or that the league is growing in that case?

[EatYerGreens]

But NI, with a population which is only 40% of that in ROI - and a somewhat less wealthy one at that - manages to support 24 Senior teams in its top two divisions, fed and supported by an Intenediate and Junior pyramid, with (relatively) new clubs like Warrenpoint, Ballinamallard and Annagh emerging to replace formerly successful senior clubs like Newry, Bangor and Distillery who may have fallen on hard times for one reason or another. So I have no doubt at all that whatever one thinks of the state of football in NI generally, without a pyramid, we would be considerably worse off without it.

There are 2 very key difference between NI and ROI. Firstly - NI is a much more urbanised society, and football is primarily an urban sport. The Republic has half the popualtion density of the north, and GAA is much more of a rural sport. So those 2 factors provide some of the explanation for what goes on IMO - both north and south.

The other is religion. If you look at the top 3 divisions of the Irish League pyramid, the clubs in it are overwhelmingly from what would be considered unionist towns. Some with very high protestant populations/catchments, especially in the top tier (e.g. Ballymena, Portadown, Crusaders, Coleraine, Glentoran, Carickfergus, Larne). This trend continues in the lower tiers (e.g. Loughall, Ballyclare, Dundela, Annagh, Dollingstown, Ballymacash etc), such that there are very few teams in the top 3 tiers from a nationalist area or with a fanbase that is not clearly unionist (I make it just Cliftonville, Newry and Warrenpoint from genuinely 'nationalist' towns (?), with Queens and PSNI arguably 'neutral' ?). And this is despite the demography of NI being roughly half and half between protestants and catholics. This is all key because it suggests strongly that Irish League football largely has the protestant population in-play to appeal to, but struggles to tap into the other half of the population and the areas where it lives. There are probably multiple reasons for why that is so - with competition from gaelic games certainly being a factor in at least some places (as well as the fact that outside of cities, most of the bigger towns in NI are very protestant - and again, football is primarily an urban sport).

The north therefore provides a useful 'control' for the argument that gaelic games provide genuine competition for football in the south. And it would suggest strongly that they do - as most of the interest and participation in senior domestic football comes from the unionist half of the population (with other factors no doubt contributing to that too).


P.S. The above situation has developed despite the (sad) loss of a major club, Derry City, from our second city a generation ago. Were eg Cork City to transfer out of the LOI to somewhere else, how weakened would LOI football be by that?

That kind of happened when Cork got demoted to the First Division though. In reality it had little impact on the Premier Division, which if anything has flourished in the last couple of years in their absence (though obviously not because of that absence). Other clubs just stepped into their shoes as the main non-Dublin competitiors (e.g. Derry).

And let's remember that the Irish League didn't "lose" Derry. It essentially pushed the club out, refused to let them back in, and gave its blessing to them going off to what at the time was a much weaker LOI thinking that would get a pesky problem off their back. Fast-forward 40yrs and the Candystripes are the best supported club in NI, the LOI is tronger than the IL, and the northern league is (still) massively dominated by Belfast clubs*. It's all rather backfired spectacularly for the Irish League you could say.

*(You have to go back over a quarter of a century to the last time a club outside of Belfast won the Irish League (Portadown, 1996). They also won it in 1990/1 and 1989/90. Prior to that you have to go back to Coleraine in 1973/4 (a team that was apparently full of ex Derry City players), and before that Derry City in 1964/5. So only 4 of the last 50 league titles in NI have been won by non-Belfast clubs, with only 2 different clubs involved in that).

[sbgawa]

The FAI need to force all leagues into a February to November year.
That at least means that the creation of a Pyramid is one step closer.
I help out in the DDSL and they have just finished until Feb anyway so this whole debate is about the length of break in the Summer.
Force Summer Season.
Force amalgamation of the Numerous leagues and to hell with the blazers trying to protect their Fiefdoms.
Put the Pyramid in place and then allow people to choose if they want to go up or not.
Eventualy the forward thinking clubs will come forward but the FAI wont make this Omelette without Smashing a few eggs

[EatYerGreens]

The FAI need to force all leagues into a February to November year.
That at least means that the creation of a Pyramid is one step closer.
I help out in the DDSL and they have just finished until Feb anyway so this whole debate is about the length of break in the Summer.
Force Summer Season.
Force amalgamation of the Numerous leagues and to hell with the blazers trying to protect their Fiefdoms.
Put the Pyramid in place and then allow people to choose if they want to go up or not.
Eventualy the forward thinking clubs will come forward but the FAI wont make this Omelette without Smashing a few eggs

All of which makes sense on paper - but doesn;t take into account how the FAI is structured. Thsoe blazers effectively run the show.

This is where it's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement. They should make more money available to Irish football - but only in return for a restructuring to align the whole system. Then if any league wants to stick to a Winter season then they can, but will do so in splendid isolation. And any ambitious clubs who hope to receive funding for facilities etc will migrate away from them to do so. Leave the dinosaurs to wither.

[pineapple stu]

So when it comes down to it, your stuff about rugby and GAA is irrelevant and quietly dropped, the points about the clubs not wanting a pyramid is also not relevant to the fact that it's shown to be the best system, and really you seem to think the status quo is best because it's too hard to do anything else?

[EalingGreen]

How can you create a pyramid if the structures beneath the top 2 divisions appear largely disinterested/unwilling?

How would a pyramid work if a lot of clubs just aren't interested in promotion (therefore making it a bit of a farce at times) ?

Discuss.I wouldn't pretend to have answers to those questions, or quick and easy answers, at any rate.

But I fail to see why, given time, support and encouragement etc, towns like Navan, Ennis, Carlow, Newbridge, Swords(!), Kilkenny(!), Naas, Mullingar or Letterkenny couldn't eventually sustain a senior club in the LOI, if only on a p-t basis in the First Division, or a third tier.

I mean, there are undoubtedly people in those places who are interested in football, while it's not like eg Scotland or Portugal where that interest is highly concentrated respectively in two or three giant clubs.

And if a country like Iceland can create a pyramid with 5 tiers, nine divisions and 86 clubs from a population of 375k, then there is no good reason why ROI cannot.

Unless football people consider that such a pyramid would offer no real benefits to the game in the LOI, or even might make things somehow worse?

[Buller]

The FAI need to force all leagues into a February to November year.
That at least means that the creation of a Pyramid is one step closer.
I help out in the DDSL and they have just finished until Feb anyway so this whole debate is about the length of break in the Summer.
Force Summer Season.
Force amalgamation of the Numerous leagues and to hell with the blazers trying to protect their Fiefdoms.
Put the Pyramid in place and then allow people to choose if they want to go up or not.
Eventualy the forward thinking clubs will come forward but the FAI wont make this Omelette without Smashing a few eggs

Yeah I'd absolutely agree with the season alignment. There should be an effort to align all leagues if we can without causing too much disruption to the running of junior clubs, and then consider possible pyramid structures in the future. Far too much politics in football, with separate bodies all around the country trying to operate independently.

I'm just yet to be convinced that having a pyramid is some sort of silver bullet or that its essential by any means for improving the top level game. I still think in some cases it might make some areas worse.

In my own area of Dublin theres far too many micky mouse football clubs, and one really strong, well placed GAA club. Their facilities are top class and they draw in more players and funding than all the other football clubs combined. (likely more factors than that, but you get the point!)

I'm always in favour of consolation and amalgamation! Including with the All-Ireland league :P

[Buller]

Just on this - last year, with 19 clubs, the LoI was the smallest it's been since two divisions were introduced.

Hard to argue we have 20+ clubs or that the league is growing in that case?

Ah come on, you'd measure the leagues growth financially, by the standard of play, and by crowd sizes - not by the number of clubs. If we were to use that metric, the league went through massive growth when the first division was created in the 80s and through the 90s - arguably a period of the leagues worst ever shape.

[Buller]

And if a country like Iceland can create a pyramid with 5 tiers, nine divisions and 86 clubs from a population of 375k, then there is no good reason why ROI cannot.

They're all based on the east side in and around Reykjavik and I think there's very few exceptions - so no travel costs. Makes it far easier to create.

You could make a League of Dublin overnight too with the 20 LSL divisions and the 5 Dublin LOI clubs.

[pineapple stu]

Ah come on, you'd measure the leagues growth financially, by the standard of play, and by crowd sizes - not by the number of clubs. If we were to use that metric, the league went through massive growth when the first division was created in the 80s and through the 90s - arguably a period of the leagues worst ever shape.
You mentioned the number of clubs though?

Number of clubs is very much a sign of health. A league with ten teams would be a real concern, even if they're the ten Premier teams next year say

I agree it's not a silver bullet. But it's still the right thing to do and could only be beneficial

[legendz]

You mentioned the number of clubs though?

Number of clubs is very much a sign of health. A league with ten teams would be a real concern, even if they're the ten Premier teams next year say

I agree it's not a silver bullet. But it's still the right thing to do and could only be beneficial Which club will benefit from a pyramid and what is preventing them from joining the youths leagues as an expression of interest?

[Kiki Balboa]

I'm not fully convinced a pyramid would not cause some greater issues, particularly when it is introduced. A lot of the amateur talent is based in Dublin and in areas that are already represented by the League of Ireland. If a pyramid was introduced, the league might become more Dublin-centric- imagine Athlone and Kerry relegated for St. Francis or St. Mocthas, or a situation like Mervue and Salthill, where promoted teams are directly in the catchment areas of another well-established LOI team and seemingly have limited growth options. For example, looking at the last 16 of the 2022 Intermiedditte cup, only Maynooth is from a county without LOI representation, and really as a town, it is only a stone's throw from Dublin city (I mean Dublin bus still goes there, and it is pretty straight forward to go to St. Pats and Rovers). Point is, with where the talent and proper football teams are outside LOI, if a pyramid system was introduced today, it would more than likely just be a representative of the country as today's LOI is.


I feel like football development is a bit of chicken and the egg in Ireland. A senior LOI team helps football to grow in an area, but you need a strong football base to have a senior LOI team.


I could be wrong however, the last 16 of the FAI junior cup has 4 non-LOI counties represented (Two in Tipp, Peake Villa and St. Michaels, Freebooters in Kilkenny, Ballinasloe Town AFC from Roscommon, and Avenue United from Clare). (Not that a look at two cups in a single year is the best sample, but it is intresting that in the two cups, 6 out of the last 32 are from non-loi counties).


I feel the gap between the leagues is too big (on and off the pitch), and stops a lot of potential growth, especially for clubs in big towns that are stuck in regional leagues. It's why I feel the new regional Third Tier (ala an improved 'A' Championship) is the best option for football in the country first.

[sidewayspasser]

I think looking at the two cups indeed doesn't give you the best sample, particularly the Intermediate cup. This is because intermediate football only exists in limited pockets in the country, namely the areas that are covered by the LSL, MSL and USL. The LSL is basically consists of clubs from Dublin and a few surrounding towns, the MSL is practically a Cork league, and the USL is mainly in Donegal. Outside these, there are no intermediate leagues, so no wonder there are no teams from anywhere else in the Intermediate cup.

[pineapple stu]

But a new third tier is just an extra layer on an already failed system. We saw the issues it gave Tralee Dynamoes when they joined, and then it folded so they want back to the bottom of Kerry. That has to be a huge disincentive to joining. You need the safety net of relegation to encourage new clubs. That's the biggest failure of the A Championship.

If more clubs from areas with LoI clubs end up joining the league, so what? If it turns out like Salhill/Mervue, they'll be relegated again, and it should give Galway a root up the hole to not be so complacent.

The idea of picking, say, Carlow as a new club is just the same franchise model that's failed repeatedly in the past. Every single club bar Bray to have joined the LoI since the two-tier structure was introduced has gone bust or withdrawn from the league. And let's not forget clubs like Waterford/Wexford "going bust" to write off a load of debt and restarting at the exact same level.

[Kiki Balboa]

But a new third tier is just an extra layer on an already failed system. We saw the issues it gave Tralee Dynamoes when they joined, and then it folded so they want back to the bottom of Kerry. That has to be a huge disincentive to joining. You need the safety net of relegation to encourage new clubs. That's the biggest failure of the A Championship.

If more clubs from areas with LoI clubs end up joining the league, so what? If it turns out like Salhill/Mervue, they'll be relegated again, and it should give Galway a root up the hole to not be so complacent.

The idea of picking, say, Carlow as a new club is just the same franchise model that's failed repeatedly in the past. Every single club bar Bray to have joined the LoI since the two-tier structure was introduced has gone bust or withdrawn from the league. And let's not forget clubs like Waterford/Wexford "going bust" to write off a load of debt and restarting at the exact same level.

But this is based on that football is equally spread around the country. Its not- there are large areas that have little football infrastructure or interest, and creating a pyramid system will not address that. Secondly, teams 'go bust' the whole time in non-LOI football, and are constantly changing leagues or dropping divisions without playing any football. The 'boom/bust' cycle isnt just reserved for LOI. There would be no indication that a pyramid system would change this in LOI.

While creating a 3rd Tier would allow for hubs to develop (which should include a certain amount of resources, but it also gives a focus on who to give resources to), like Kerry FC, to provide knock on effects for soccer in whole region, while giving a division for teams to reorganise in, without dropping way down multiple tiers if things do go wrong.

Just point out, I too would much prefer a pyramid system in the country- it would be a lot fairer way to do football- but I still see issues with it. I think a regional Third Tier is an important First step towards a healthier football system in Ireland.

[pineapple stu]

The boom/bust isn't exclusively LoI, no, but it is still a big barrier to entry to it. The costs are higher in the LoI, it's a higher risk - and there's no way to drop down back to, say, the LSL top flight if things don't work out. That's the big fault with the A Championship that a pyramid system would change - the option of just dropping down to a more local division if things don't quite work out. It isn't really a division for teams to reorganise in - it's just another version of the First Division but with even less profile (if that's possible!) Cobh didn't reorganise in it, for example.

[Kiki Balboa]

The boom/bust isn't exclusively LoI, no, but it is still a big barrier to entry to it. The costs are higher in the LoI, it's a higher risk - and there's no way to drop down back to, say, the LSL top flight if things don't work out. That's the big fault with the A Championship that a pyramid system would change - the option of just dropping down to a more local division if things don't quite work out. It isn't really a division for teams to reorganise in - it's just another version of the First Division but with even less profile (if that's possible!) Cobh didn't reorganise in it, for example.

I don't think we are disagreeing much, I think a pyramid would also be great, but don't think its a bad idea to build down first. It would also be great to build up, like to reorganise the local leagues and the LSL for example, but a Third Tier is still a needed addition to link LOI to the pyramid.

I think it is not a bad idea for the FAI to provide resources to enitities in areas that are under-represented in Football help buld football in those regions (be it league teams, already established junior teams (which would be my preference), or brand new entities), and the Third Tier offers a great way to have focus with that.

I also am aware of where non-loi football is strongest is often where LOI is, and if a pyramid structure was introduced today, it would be Dublin dominated, and would crowds the pathways for regional teams to build.

[pineapple stu]

I think if you talk about building down though, you have to do it in the way it's done in, say, England/Scotland, where you take a whole existing league and add it on to the bottom. So the Scottish league built down by merging in the Highland/Lowland leagues, and now it's gone further with relegation out of those and to the levels below. Ditto England introducing promotion/relegation between Division Four and the Conference. So you merge in the MSL/LSL here (and I know there's huge politics to be overcome there)

I don't think you can do it by creating a new tier and blindly hoping clubs will join it, which is what we're trying. And not very successfully, given this thread is running a year and we're no closer to that third tier.

[culloty82]

Except, of course, it would have to be an entirely reconstructed MSL, that yes, retains some of the leading Cork clubs like Rockmount and Avondale, but also adds in some of the more ambitious junior sides in the province like Villa FC, Fairview, Pike, Clonmel, St Michael's, Killarney Celtic & Athletic, and Tralee Dynamos. Similarly, if Connacht were to be involved, it would require a division containing Salthill, Mervue, Castlebar and Boyle, among others.

[Kiki Balboa]

I think if you talk about building down though, you have to do it in the way it's done in, say, England/Scotland, where you take a whole existing league and add it on to the bottom. So the Scottish league built down by merging in the Highland/Lowland leagues, and now it's gone further with relegation out of those and to the levels below. Ditto England introducing promotion/relegation between Division Four and the Conference. So you merge in the MSL/LSL here (and I know there's huge politics to be overcome there)

I don't think you can do it by creating a new tier and blindly hoping clubs will join it, which is what we're trying. And not very successfully, given this thread is running a year and we're no closer to that third tier.

But didn't we do it before with the First?


We also don't know if it is successful yet or not, who was approached or why clubs might be hesitant. So with the absent of edvidence, we are only arguing about theoretical approaches to expansion- to which I say creating a new Third Tier is needed anyway for the football pyramid system in Ireland, and can provide a good way to focus on developing the sport in new areas.


Your leagues mentioned were probably already well-established leagues that could fit into the pyramid framework. This is absent in Ireland. You can't merge the MSL and LSL into the league of Ireland as it is today. You would need to build those leagues up from the bottom first to be truly representative of their provinces (which they aren't now)- and even at that best I could see it would they would be the 4th tier in any pyramid structure, as the gap between LSL and the First is too big for a single season jump (on and off the pitch).


In the German football pyramid, you could argue that the LSL and MSL are similar to the Regionalliga, which was their 3rd tier until 2008 (the German 3rd Liga was created from the new). But that has caused heaps of issues for German football, and are trying desperately to reform their system. This would probably be the same issue in Ireland if we only used the current competitions within a pyramid structure.



Now that I'm thinking about it, this is how I would imagine an Irish pyramid structure If I had my way and with massive resources:




Create a 3rd Tier ala 'A' Championship, and provide off-the-field resources to its regional clubs to help them take the step to LOI Football (resources such as grants for coaching licenses, grants towards a director of football, grants towards facilities, grants towards hiring professional CEO/ someone in charge of building a support base)

Give the same resources to teams struggling in the First to help the rebuild (for example Athlone)

Cut the provincial leagues to one or two divisions, and then have subdivisions under it that are regionalised

have the local leagues feed into these regionalised provincial leagues


Something like this:




LOI Premier



LOI First



LOI Third Tier North

LOI Third Tier South



USL/CSL

LSL

MSL



North

South

North

Dublin

South

North

South



Regional/ Local Leagues




I think it would be great to have the LSL and MSL eventually feed into the Third Tier too, but I would prefer to build a new Third Tier first.

[pineapple stu]

But didn't we do it before with the First?
Yes - but hasn't that just deferred the same problem we had anyway?


We also don't know if it is successful yet or not, who was approached or why clubs might be hesitant. So with the absent of edvidence, we are only arguing about theoretical approaches to expansion
I think we can argue it was unsuccessful. We know the FAI had a plan to launch a 20-team third tier for 2023 and yet 12 months later we have not a single club for it (granted, some of the clubs would have been reserve teams). The only new team in that time, Kerry, are plugging a gap in the First Division, which has a pretty big rate of attrition. That's a failure in my eye.


You can't merge the MSL and LSL into the league of Ireland as it is today. You would need to build those leagues up from the bottom first to be truly representative of their provinces (which they aren't now)- and even at that best I could see it would they would be the 4th tier in any pyramid structure, as the gap between LSL and the First is too big for a single season jump (on and off the pitch).
There's something in this for sure. Yes, the MSL/LSL need to be more than a Cork/Dublin league for sure. And yes, you need to get rid of silly stuff like the AUL/United Churches League and the various district leagues.

But I still think it's the proper plan, even if it can't be just clicked into place like the Highland/Lowland league in Scotland. It'd be quicker than trying to convince 12 new clubs to jump up.

And I think MSL/LSL clubs are less likely to want to be promoted to a national third tier than to the First Division tbh. If the First Division is a graveyard, what's the third tier going to be like, when a good chunk of it is B teams (not hugely popular among "real" clubs on the continent afaik. I wouldn't be worried about the jump - let them have a target to bridge.


In the German football pyramid, you could argue that the LSL and MSL are similar to the Regionalliga, which was their 3rd tier until 2008 (the German 3rd Liga was created from the new). But that has caused heaps of issues for German football
Such as what, out of interest?

[legendz]

Two pyramids is probably an Irish solution. Pyramid 1: Premier Division, First Division and the Third Tier. Pyramid 2: All district leagues offering a pathway to a provincial/regional league.