Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[culloty82]

Portlaoise evidently has potential, based on their FAI Cup run this year, but is there a broader soccer infrastructure in Laois to sustain a senior club? The AIL would definitely seem to be a runner at Premier Division level, but beyond those 16-18 clubs, you would presumably have to regionalise straight afterwards - can't imagine Warrenpoint travelling to play Kerry, or Ballinamallard hosting Wexford would be financially viable in the long-term.

[Kiki Balboa]

Portlaoise evidently has potential, based on their FAI Cup run this year, but is there a broader soccer infrastructure in Laois to sustain a senior club? The AIL would definitely seem to be a runner at Premier Division level, but beyond those 16-18 clubs, you would presumably have to regionalise straight afterwards - can't imagine Warrenpoint travelling to play Kerry, or Ballinamallard hosting Wexford would be financially viable in the long-term.

Chicken and the egg stuff, no? Having a LOI team surley helps build the soccer infrastructure around an area. For when you look through the Fai Junior and intermediate cups, most teams are from areas with already with LOI representation (this year being an exception).

[JC_GUFC]

Mullingar will never join the LOI. Those days are long gone

Well probably not from that owner but in terms of a population base it potentially could sustain a club. Do Longford or Athlone draw much support from Mullingar do you know?


Portlaoise evidently has potential, based on their FAI Cup run this year, but is there a broader soccer infrastructure in Laois to sustain a senior club? The AIL would definitely seem to be a runner at Premier Division level, but beyond those 16-18 clubs, you would presumably have to regionalise straight afterwards - can't imagine Warrenpoint travelling to play Kerry, or Ballinamallard hosting Wexford would be financially viable in the long-term.

Yes - all suggestions have been to have regional divisions below that - one of the major issues I think for the Northern clubs is the huge increase in travel costs and also the amount of time players will need to travel to games.

In terms of the lower tier I suppose the question then becomes are clubs like Finn Harps and Longford in the Northern region with the former NIFL clubs or would they stick with playing the LoI clubs? It probably wouldn't do much for the long-term viability of the league if it was purely geographical and the two promoted teams (assuming a promotion from both Championship North and South) were both ex-LoI clubs.

Although it goes against everything a league stands for there would need to be some protection to ensure that a minimum number of former NIFL clubs remained in the top flight.

[Longfordian]

We used to get some regulars coming from Mullingar years ago when we were successful but not any more. As far as I know. They didn't like Athlone Town so they'd rather go to Longford.

[EalingGreen]

The obvious expansion is the All-Ireland League.So what you're saying is that since you're seemingly incapable of expanding your domestic league in the same way as just about every other comparable European country (eg Wales, NI, Iceland, Finland), you should instead try something which no other European country has managed to do?

That is, ignore completely FIFA and UEFA's strict jurisdictions and boundaries etc and combine with the league of another country, a league which incidentally shows no inclination to join any such scheme.

No offence, JC, and I do enjoy your other posts, but this is pie-in-the-sky thinking.

[JC_GUFC]

So what you're saying is that since you're seemingly incapable of expanding your domestic league in the same way as just about every other comparable European country (eg Wales, NI, Iceland, Finland), you should instead try something which no other European country has managed to do?

That is, ignore completely FIFA and UEFA's strict jurisdictions and boundaries etc and combine with the league of another country, a league which incidentally shows no inclination to join any such scheme.

No offence, JC, and I do enjoy your other posts, but this is pie-in-the-sky thinking.

Obviously I meant with agreement from IFA/NIFL etc. Not that the FAI would recreate "Belfast Celtic" and have them play LoI!

There just aren't many large towns left in Ireland that aren't represented by a football team, or have been mentioned as a potential new club.

Looking at NI, as it's the one I'm most familiar with, though the NIFL Premiership has done well in recent seasons there was also a recent report about the lack of crowds in the Championship, that's because many of the clubs are small "junior" clubs with little catchment area. Even from Belfast you have Welders, Knockbreda and Dundela all from the same general area where presumably there are a large number of Glentoran fans. Welders have a lovely new ground so have the most potential but this would be similar to the likes of Ballymun or Crumlin or Killester joining the 3rd tier in League of Ireland.

To me the all-Ireland league isn't complete pie-in-the-sky and UEFA definitely seemed to have viewed proposals somewhat favourably, if all parties were in agreement. It's one way for them to strengthen the smaller leagues.

[legendz]

At the moment the issue that it really isn’t financially viable for any club to join LoI.
If prize money were to be increased and a club could join the league and not immediately lose 100k in their first season then it would become more attractive.
All clubs have to cut their cloth. The league also has to cut its cloth. A self sustainable league will generate revenue through sponsorship and TV deals.
Prize money wasn't a deterrent for Kerry. The goal is to have senior football for the area and a pathway for young players. The costs for the youth leagues seems reasonable based on the clubs that have joined. The third tier should be similarly feasible
The third tier, if it happens, will be doing well to have 4 first teams and 6 reserve teams in time.

[EalingGreen]

Obviously I meant with agreement from IFA/NIFL etc. Not that the FAI would recreate "Belfast Celtic" and have them play LoI!Fair dues.



There just aren't many large towns left in Ireland that aren't represented by a football team, or have been mentioned as a potential new club.

Looking at NI, as it's the one I'm most familiar with, though the NIFL Premiership has done well in recent seasons there was also a recent report about the lack of crowds in the Championship, that's because many of the clubs are small "junior" clubs with little catchment area. Even from Belfast you have Welders, Knockbreda and Dundela all from the same general area where presumably there are a large number of Glentoran fans. Welders have a lovely new ground so have the most potential but this would be similar to the likes of Ballymun or Crumlin or Killester joining the 3rd tier in League of Ireland.When you look at eg Sligo or Ballybofey, Ballinamallard or Loughgall, you don't necessarily need large towns to sustain a Senior football club, if only on a p-t basis.
Remember, with a population of 2m, NI manages (just about!) to sustain 24 senior clubs. Yet ROI, with 2.5 x times the population, struggles to sustain 20. (Or 17, if you "exclude" DCFC from outwith the jurisdiction; UCD, an amateur? college side; and Kerry FC, who are yet to become fully established.)
I have no doubt that there is enough interest and sufficient resources in ROI to support many more clubs at a decent level, if only it was organised better. Take Greater Dublin, for example, with its population of 1.25m. The city supports just four Senior clubs + UCD, while as you say, with a population barely half that, Belfast has four Senior clubs in the Prem, plus another four in the Championship. Granted only two of the former are f-t with the other two hybrid, while the Championship clubs are all definitely smaller than you'd like, but they get by nonetheless.

Further, I don't understand this apparent (near) obsession of the LOI in exploring virgin football territory, planting a flag in the middle of a field somewhere and hoping to build a new football club round it. I mean, there's probably a good reason why eg Mayo has never had a senior football team before now.
Far better imo to build in well-established football country, from the centre out.
And this doesn't just apply to Dublin and district, there is no good reason why eg a city the size of Cork could not support two distinct Senior teams, rather than the same one in a different guise every few years. Similarly, while eg Institute are never going to challenge the dominance of the big Belfast clubs in the IL, nonetheless they do consititute (no pun intended) a second Senior club in the city of Derry.


To me the all-Ireland league isn't complete pie-in-the-sky and UEFA definitely seemed to have viewed proposals somewhat favourably, if all parties were in agreement. It's one way for them to strengthen the smaller leagues.I am not against the idea in principle, indeed I would support it if I thought it could be made to work, but I cannot for the life of me see how it could.
For while UEFA haven't said a firm "No", then again they've never actually had to, since there's never been a firm proposal. By contrast, they've always been at best lukewarm about other proposed trans-national leagues eg the Scandi countries, or Benelux, not least since it would go against the whole principle of separate, independent National Associations, each with its own jurisdiction and territory etc. All of which was before the spectre of the (trans-national) European Super League, which is/was absolute poison to them.
Then you've the opposition of the IFA, if they thought it would erode their own independence and separate integrity, or come to threaten the NI international team. (While a few "blazers" in the FAI mightn't be too satisfied at having to "squeeze up", either!).
And that's before you faced the likely opposition from a section of football fans in NI, whether of club or country or both. While certain NI clubs would also be opposed, most prominently Cliftonville.
Meanwhile there are practical problems of whether UEFA would permit this small island, with its relatively minor league to retain 7 or 8 guaranteed European places - really can't see it myself.
Nor can we overlook the thorny problem of whether this new league would play a Summer season or a Winter one - good luck with squaring that circle!

But apart from that... :wink:

[EalingGreen]

A self sustainable league will generate revenue through sponsorship and TV deals.... ... The third tier, if it happens, will be doing well to have 4 first teams and 6 reserve teams in time.Out of interest, how much sponsorship and TV money do you think such a league (4 + 6) would generate?

I'm guessing somewhere between bugger-all and less than that.

[legendz]

Out of interest, how much sponsorship and TV money do you think such a league (4 + 6) would generate?

I'm guessing somewhere between bugger-all and less than that.Two separate topics. Prize money regards Premier Division. Second topic, likely composition of a third tier.

[nigel-harps1954]

Portlaoise evidently has potential, based on their FAI Cup run this year, but is there a broader soccer infrastructure in Laois to sustain a senior club? The AIL would definitely seem to be a runner at Premier Division level, but beyond those 16-18 clubs, you would presumably have to regionalise straight afterwards - can't imagine Warrenpoint travelling to play Kerry, or Ballinamallard hosting Wexford would be financially viable in the long-term.

If Finn Harps can manage the travel this season, there's no NI club who should have any trouble. We're a small country. Took me all of 4.5 hours to travel from Carlow/Kilkenny border to Letterkenny today. Roughly 6 hours from Tralee to same. We're not going to outer Mongolia or anything.

[EalingGreen]

If Finn Harps can manage the travel this season, there's no NI club who should have any trouble. We're a small country. Took me all of 4.5 hours to travel from Carlow/Kilkenny border to Letterkenny today. Roughly 6 hours from Tralee to same. We're not going to outer Mongolia or anything.
If all else were in place, then I'm sure the travel would not be a deal-breaker.

But I cannot see any way past the opening "If".

[EatYerGreens]

There just aren't many large towns left in Ireland that aren't represented by a football team, or have been mentioned as a potential new club.

That depends what you mean by 'large'.

The CSO definition of a large town is one with a population of 10,000+. For me that would be more of a medum-sized town, with a large one being 20,000+ (i.e. Sligo, Athlone, letterkenny).

So if we take a population of 20,000 as providing a solid base from which to grow support for a potential LOI club, there are quite a few places without an LOI club currently =

- Swords (40,000).
- Navan (30,000).
- Kilkenny (27,000).
- Ennis (26,000).
- Carlow Town (25,000).
- Newbridge (23.000).
- Portlaoise (23,000).
- Naas (22,000).
- Mullingar (22,000).
- Cellbridge (21,000).
- Letterkenny (20,000).

Could some of those locations support a viable LOI club ? I personally believe so anyway. Obviously Kilkenny and Newbridge have tried previously - but in a different era, where there was significantly less support and income generally across the league.

[legendz]

- Swords (40,000).
- Navan (30,000).
- Kilkenny (27,000).
- Ennis (26,000).
- Carlow Town (25,000).
- Newbridge (23.000).
- Portlaoise (23,000).
- Naas (22,000).
- Mullingar (22,000).
- Cellbridge (21,000).
- Letterkenny (20,000).

- Swords (40,000). Fingal II?
- Navan (30,000). Bernard O'Byrne in Athboy?
- Kilkenny (27,000). CK United.
- Ennis (26,000). Treaty supporters?
- Carlow Town (25,000). CK United.
- Newbridge (23.000). Klub Kildare.
- Portlaoise (23,000). Any possibility of an Offaly Laois partnership?
- Naas (22,000). Klub Kildare.
- Mullingar (22,000). Athlone supporters?
- Cellbridge (21,000). Klub Kildare
- Letterkenny (20,000). Finn Harps or Derry City supporters?

As always, any new clubs should start off in the youth leagues.

[2 Year Contract]

- Swords (40,000). Fingal II?
- Navan (30,000). Bernard O'Byrne in Athboy?
- Kilkenny (27,000). CK United.
- Ennis (26,000). Treaty supporters?
- Carlow Town (25,000). CK United.
- Newbridge (23.000). Klub Kildare.
- Portlaoise (23,000). Any possibility of an Offaly Laois partnership?
- Naas (22,000). Klub Kildare.
- Mullingar (22,000). Athlone supporters?
- Celbridge (21,000). Klub Kildare
- Letterkenny (20,000). Finn Harps or Derry City supporters?

As always, any new clubs should start off in the youth leagues.

Although Celbridge is in Kildare, the ground that Klub Kildare play in is 28km from Celbridge while Tallaght is 17km and Inchicore is 20km away

[EalingGreen]

As always, any new clubs should start off in the youth leagues."Always"?

There has been one attempt so far and it remains to be seen whether that attempt will succeed. And even assuming it does, how many other Kerry FC's are there waiting in line to repeat the trick? Realistically you would need another 8 (minimum) or 10 or 12 (ideally) to add a genuine third tier to the pyramid. And whatever else it is, a cobbled-together league consisting of LOI Reserve teams, College teams and elevated Youth teams etc would not constitute a a third tier.

This is because to form a genuine next step in a pyramid, theoretically at least, every participating club should be able/aspiring to get promotion to the FD, and from there the PD. (And yes, I know that in practice, the majority would not be likely to do so any time soon, if ever).

While at the same time, any FD/PD club which hits hard times should know that there is a viable third tier for them to drop down to, without it jeopardising their very existence as a Senior, professional club.

[GUFCghost]

I get the vibe that those who support a pyramid think it's the only possible way to succeed, this seems to me a very eurocentric way of thinking.
Our sporting culture is set by the GAA, which has representative teams at the elite level. Junior and intermediate clubs seem happy out as they are, so why make them change their fundamental nature? Seems to me like the Kerry model is the way forward

[pineapple stu]

Are Kerry really the model if - like Cabo and others before them - they can't make the most of their early momentum because they're utterly awful on the pitch?

Dismissing a pyramid as Eurocentric is a bit bizarre. It works outside Europe too. For a reason

[EalingGreen]

"Our sporting culture is set by the GAA..."I think I see your problem here.

That is, the domestic version of a global, professional sport is being framed by how they do things in a separate, localised and amateur sport which is hardly played anywhere outside of Ireland.

No offence, but that is parochial thinking. Literally.

[WexCar.]

Even the GAA have a pyramid structure at club level and also intercounty level for hurling, it works very well.

A pyramid structure cannot succeed in this jurisdiction while there is a misalignment with seasons. If it was all summer seasons or winter seasons, then the FAI wold stand a much better chance of implementation a pyramid but no established clubs with ambition move up into LOI will make the move in its current form.

We can't be solely dependant on the formation of new clubs like Kerry if the league is to grow. Its great that that pathway exists for locations that it suits but you need existing clubs wanting to step up as they will have an established base and identity to build from.

[EalingGreen]

A pyramid structure cannot succeed in this jurisdiction while there is a misalignment with seasons.And it is that same misalignment alone which is likely to scupper any hope of expansion via some sort of AIL.

For even if a sufficient number of Senior NI clubs were prepared to switch to a summer season (debateable), it would consequently dismantle NI's pyramid. And considering how much work has gone into building it in the first place, I cannot see NIFL, the IFA and the remaining Senior clubs, plus Intermediate/Junior clubs liking that either.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that while the LOI's move to a summer season may have brought short-to-medium term gains, it has caused an equally big, or greater, problem over the long term.

[legendz]

Kerry is one route forward. There is no one size fits all. The one blueprint Kerry have set is to build up through the youth leagues. While Kerry have the backing of all district league clubs that will not be the case everywhere.
Realistically a third tier will be a mix match of reserve teams and first teams graduating from the youth league. Most have acknowledged there is a tier required between the U19s and LoI.
If Mullingar are reluctant to get behind Athlone, it's an example of an area that might benefit from the rivalry of having two clubs. East v West.

[EatYerGreens]

The more I think about it, the more I feel that while the LOI's move to a summer season may have brought short-to-medium term gains, it has caused an equally big, or greater, problem over the long term.

The difference being that the gains it has delivered are actual and tangible, whilst the alleged problems are academic and notional. Becuase there is currently no move to introduce a deep pyramid - and no clamour to have one - so the misaligned seasons don't matter right now. There was no pyramid under Winter football eother, so it's not as if Summer football is the sole r even primary barrier to that happening (will and interest is).

I'd be pretty confident that if a survey was held asking LOI fans if they'd rather stick with a Summer season or revert back to a Winter one, a large majoriity would vote for the status quo. Which again shows that there is no real problem at play here (only for those interested in fantasy pyramid formations).

[EatYerGreens]

Kerry is one route forward. There is no one size fits all. The one blueprint Kerry have set is to build up through the youth leagues. While Kerry have the backing of all district league clubs that will not be the case everywhere.
Realistically a third tier will be a mix match of reserve teams and first teams graduating from the youth league. Most have acknowledged there is a tier required between the U19s and LoI.
If Mullingar are reluctant to get behind Athlone, it's an example of an area that might benefit from the rivalry of having two clubs. East v West.

Anyone I know from the Mullingar area who was interested n LOI gravitated more towards Longford Town, which is quite a bit closer (40kms v 60kms). Though that could also have bene due to the fact that Longford had a strong period 20yrs ago whilst Athlone have been fairly rubbish since the early 1980s.

[EalingGreen]

The difference being that the gains it has delivered are actual and tangible, whilst the alleged problems are academic and notional. Becuase there is currently no move to introduce a deep pyramid - and no clamour to have one - so the misaligned seasons don't matter right now. There was no pyramid under Winter football eother, so it's not as if Summer football is the sole r even primary barrier to that happening (will and interest is).

I'd be pretty confident that if a survey was held asking LOI fans if they'd rather stick with a Summer season or revert back to a Winter one, a large majoriity would vote for the status quo. Which again shows that there is no real problem at play here (only for those interested in fantasy pyramid formations).Whatever the rights or wrongs of that post, it doesn't actually address the main point I was making, which was that the summer/winter issue would on its own scupper any realistic hope of expansion via an AIL.

While in ROI, it mitigates against expansion of the pyramid beyond the present two levels. Fair enough if people are genrally happy with a summer LOI and all the rest, but this whole thread is about expansion of the LOI beyond two divisions.

Or are you just looking for any old excuse to have a pop at me?

Again.

[EatYerGreens]

Whatever the rights or wrongs of that post, it doesn't actually address the main point I was making, which was that the summer/winter issue would on its own scupper any realistic hope of expansion via an AIL.

I believe an AIL will probably be introduced as a result of political change on the island. In those circumstances, it will happen regardless of league misalignment. A solution will be found.

An AIL is only a fringe option for expanding the range of the LOI anyway. A third tier will be in place way before that.


Or are you just looking for any old excuse to have a pop at me?

Again.

Ahh Jaysus - would you ever grow up :rolleyes:

#insecure

[EalingGreen]

Mullingar will never join the LOI. Those days are long goneI took a quick look at Mullingar Athletic's website just now.

They have a hugely impressive Facilities Development Plan under way and good luck to them. But with the way all that space and money is given over to extra pitches etc, rather than eg expanding their main stadium, it seems clear that their whole thrust is towards developing as a Community club, not towards becoming a senior LOI club.

Which is absolutely no criticism btw - quite the contrary in fact - but if a town like Sligo can sustain an LOI club, why cannot a similarly sized town like Mullingar do the same?

It can surely only be a lack of aspiration rather than a lack of potential - same as for another dozen or more Mullingars throughout the country, I suspect.

https://mullingarathleticafc.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Picture1.jpg
(Note that the new Spectator Main Stand is only Phase Four)

https://mullingarathleticafc.com/facilities-development-plan-2023-2030/

[outspoken]

Are Kerry really the model if - like Cabo and others before them - they can't make the most of their early momentum because they're utterly awful on the pitch?

Dismissing a pyramid as Eurocentric is a bit bizarre. It works outside Europe too. For a reason

Cabos early strong crowds were all people connected with the club though, plus they didn't have a proper base like Kerry do with MH. Kerry seem to have captured the imagination of people who had no previous involvement with the club which is very encouraging

[EatYerGreens]

I took a quick look at Mullingar Athletic's website just now.

They have a hugely impressive Facilities Development Plan under way and good luck to them. But with the way all that space and money is given over to extra pitches etc, rather than eg expanding their main stadium, it seems clear that their whole thrust is towards developing as a Community club, not towards becoming a senior LOI club.

Which is absolutely no criticism btw - quite the contrary in fact - but if a town like Sligo can sustain an LOI club, why cannot a similarly sized town like Mullingar do the same?

It can surely only be a lack of aspiration rather than a lack of potential - same as for another dozen or more Mullingars throughout the country, I suspect.

https://mullingarathleticafc.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Picture1.jpg
(Note that the new Spectator Main Stand is only Phase Four)

https://mullingarathleticafc.com/facilities-development-plan-2023-2030/

There are 2 main clubs in Mullingar - Town and Athletic. I can never remember which is which, but one has decent support within the town, whilst the other has much less support but far better facilities. One is also in a more central location, whilst the other is on the edge of a housing estate. Again - I can never remember which is which.

I don't think it's reasonable for @Outspoken to claim that "Mullingar will never have an LOI club". Both Town and Athletic were doggedly tryinng to get into the LOI back in 2002 when Kildare got awarded their place. Mullingar Town played in the old Eircom U21 league 20yrs ago as a stepping stone to full senior participation. At the time the club was bankrolled by Jim Moore - a wealthy local man with a bg building firm in London, who shipped over a load of players from England and spent more than €100,000 on the club to show they could work at LOI level. If memory serves me right this means that Town were the club with the better resources but the weaker local support. There has long been bad bloody between the 2 clubs in Mullingar, and Moore pumping money into Town only exasperated that.

There is no reason why Mullingar couldn't make an LOI club viable. It certainly has the population, and as a former 'garrison town' it has a longstanding interest in football/soccer too. Local footballng politics would appear to be the main barrier tbh.

[pineapple stu]

Cabos early strong crowds were all people connected with the club though, plus they didn't have a proper base like Kerry do with MH. Kerry seem to have captured the imagination of people who had no previous involvement with the club which is very encouraging
If they got 1k at games from within the club, is that a problem? That's supposed to be one of the benefits of a strong community setup after all

You could also add Kildare and maybe Wexford too (can't quite remember) who started off with good crowds but they faded when the team weren't great.

[Philosophizer]

There are 2 main clubs in Mullingar - Town and Athletic. I can never remember which is which, but one has decent support within the town, whilst the other has much less support but far better facilities. One is also in a more central location, whilst the other is on the edge of a housing estate. Again - I can never remember which is which.I
Athletic are based a few km outside the town, similar to Longford in that way. They’re the one with great facilities
As the name suggests, Town are based in the town. Their ground is wedged into a housing estate. They’ve a decent pitch and a 5 a side all weather if memory serves me.
Afaik, neither have made any mention of going for entry into the LOI for a long time.

[EalingGreen]

If they got 1k at games from within the club, is that a problem? That's supposed to be one of the benefits of a strong community setup after allMullingar Athletic say that alongside the thirty one teams they run, they have weekly coaching for an additional 200 children from six years to nine years, while they also have 725 signed up Club Members. Meaning that when you count all the associated family members and friends etc, that should provide a great community/base for decent crowds for a semi-pro team in the LOI.

While "a major part of funding" for each of the 4 phases of this €1.5m Development will be supported by a weekly club development draw with a Jackpot of up to €5,000 each week. This shows that they must also have a very progressive and committed Committee and set of volunteers running the club.

When you also add in the space available to them on their (club-owned) site, which I believe is only a couple of miles outside the town, they look to be exactly the sort of club the FAI should be encouraging to join the LOI set-up. However it is clear that the club is going in a different direction - and the best of luck to them along the way.

[Philosophizer]

Mullingar Athletic say that alongside the thirty one teams they run, they have weekly coaching for an additional 200 children from six years to nine years, while hey have 725 signed up Club Members. Meaning that when you count all the associated family members etc, that should provide a great community/base for decent crowds for a semi-pro team in the LOI.

While "a major part of funding" each of the 4 phases of this €1.5m Development will be supported by a weekly club development draw with a Jackpot of up to €5,000 each week. This shows that they must also have a very progressive and committed Committee and group of volunteers running the club.

When you also add in the space available to them on their (club-owned) site, which I believe is only a couple of miles outside the town, they look to be exactly the sort of club the FAI should be encouraging to join the LOI set-up. However it is clear that they're going in a different direction - and the best of luck to them along the way.
Athletic are an excellently ran club, no doubt about it. And always have been. They probably have 2 teams at every age level. I’m not sure if Town have any underage teams at all. It might only be senior.
One thing that could hold Athletic back would be the distance out of the town. It’s not walkable from the town. Also there is a lot of bad blood between the clubs so they might have alienated half of their locality.

[Martinho II]

I am pretty sure that I was out in Mullingar Towns ground a long long time ago. It was a pity that they never made the step up.

[legendz]

The First Division playoff format has energised the First Division. It has delivered in giving clubs a lifeline. A two team play-off at the start of the season for the final European spot would be a high profile high octane start to the season.

[2 Year Contract]

A two team play-off at the start of the season for the final European spot would be a high profile high octane start to the season.

Not a chance any club would agree to a European playoff at the start of the season. Having European prize money or not massively dictates what the playing budget for a club's squad is, so clubs will naturally only ever want the european places decided by the end of a season, and rightly so.

[legendz]

Not a chance any club would agree to a European playoff at the start of the season. Having European prize money or not massively dictates what the playing budget for a club's squad is, so clubs will naturally only ever want the european places decided by the end of a season, and rightly so. I accept that point alright. Playoffs are like Marmite. A playoff should have a natural high profile but with the FAI Cup final being rightly the closing of the season, there is no clear calendar slot for a playoff.

[outspoken]

If they got 1k at games from within the club, is that a problem? That's supposed to be one of the benefits of a strong community setup after all

You could also add Kildare and maybe Wexford too (can't quite remember) who started off with good crowds but they faded when the team weren't great.

The point I was trying to make is despite the fact Cabo had the advantage of so many members they still couldn't make it work whereas Kerry have for whatever reason greatly appealed to your average football fan in the county.

[outspoken]

There are 2 main clubs in Mullingar - Town and Athletic. I can never remember which is which, but one has decent support within the town, whilst the other has much less support but far better facilities. One is also in a more central location, whilst the other is on the edge of a housing estate. Again - I can never remember which is which.

I don't think it's reasonable for @Outspoken to claim that "Mullingar will never have an LOI club". Both Town and Athletic were doggedly tryinng to get into the LOI back in 2002 when Kildare got awarded their place. Mullingar Town played in the old Eircom U21 league 20yrs ago as a stepping stone to full senior participation. At the time the club was bankrolled by Jim Moore - a wealthy local man with a bg building firm in London, who shipped over a load of players from England and spent more than €100,000 on the club to show they could work at LOI level. If memory serves me right this means that Town were the club with the better resources but the weaker local support. There has long been bad bloody between the 2 clubs in Mullingar, and Moore pumping money into Town only exasperated that.

There is no reason why Mullingar couldn't make an LOI club viable. It certainly has the population, and as a former 'garrison town' it has a longstanding interest in football/soccer too. Local footballng politics would appear to be the main barrier tbh.

I'm well aware of all of this, I'm in Mullingar on a regular basis. The FAI not allowing Mullingar in when they had that backing was crazy then again would he have stayed for the long haul, who's to know but I very much feel like the boat was missed for them to every become a Loi side.

[EatYerGreens]

If they got 1k at games from within the club, is that a problem? That's supposed to be one of the benefits of a strong community setup after all

You could also add Kildare and maybe Wexford too (can't quite remember) who started off with good crowds but they faded when the team weren't great.

Are there any football clubs anywhere who don't see attendances fall when they perform badly, and increase when they do well (capacity allowing) ? I can remember the decade when Ramgers were rampant in Scotland and it was fairly easy to get tickets for Celtic games, for example.

[pineapple stu]

The point I was trying to make is despite the fact Cabo had the advantage of so many members they still couldn't make it work whereas Kerry have for whatever reason greatly appealed to your average football fan in the county.
Yep, but my point is that given they're so uncompetitive, crowds will surely dwindle like at Cabo.

Again showing the folly of just making up a club and dumping them into the First Division. Far better for a side to be promoted into it; they should be far more likely to be competitive and can build on their momentum

[outspoken]

Yep, but my point is that given they're so uncompetitive, crowds will surely dwindle like at Cabo.

Again showing the folly of just making up a club and dumping them into the First Division. Far better for a side to be promoted into it; they should be far more likely to be competitive and can build on their momentum

Mervue and Salthill were promoted and bar Mervue's final season both were generally crap?

[Buller]

Mervue and Salthill were promoted and bar Mervue's final season both were generally crap?

No no no, things were going swimmingly.

I think we needed to expand it and allow all 10 Galway junior clubs to be promoted to the first division to build momentum across the city. These Galway United crowds are far too big at present and need to be split 10 ways.

[pineapple stu]

Mervue and Salthill were promoted and bar Mervue's final season both were generally crap?


No no no, things were going swimmingly.

I think we needed to expand it and allow all 10 Galway junior clubs to be promoted to the first division to build momentum across the city. These Galway United crowds are far too big at present and need to be split 10 ways.
I don't know how many times this has been mentioned, but every time people ignore the fact that (a) they didn't really earn promotion because there still wasn't a proper pyramid in place - being the best of three other teams who also shouldn't have been elected to the third tier doesn't really count- and (b) one or other of them would have been relegated every single year from 2010 to 2013 had there, again, been a proper pyramid in place.

And Salthill weren't really promoted at all in fact - Kildare County withdrew and Salthill, who had been down to play them in a play-off, were elected to the league.

I'm not saying every club that gets promoted in a proper system will do well btw. But clubs who are made up a couple of months before the start of the season and dumped into the First Division to struggle will tend to do a lot worse that those who build momentum (and improve facilities, etc) through proper progress, which is the point of a pyramid.

[Buller]

I don't know how many times this has been mentioned, but every time people ignore the fact that (a) they didn't really earn promotion because there still wasn't a proper pyramid in place - being the best of three other teams who also shouldn't have been elected to the third tier doesn't really count- and (b) one or other of them would have been relegated every single year from 2010 to 2013 had there, again, been a proper pyramid in place.

And Salthill weren't really promoted at all in fact - Kildare County withdrew and Salthill, who had been down to play them in a play-off, were elected to the league.

I'm not saying every club that gets promoted in a proper system will do well btw. But clubs who are made up a couple of months before the start of the season and dumped into the First Division to struggle will tend to do a lot worse that those who build momentum (and improve facilities, etc) through proper progress, which is the point of a pyramid.

Yeah point taken but they're both very well run clubs who would have no doubt got there on their own accord. Far better run than Galway Utd entities before them at least!

[pineapple stu]

They may well have gotten to the second tier on their own, sure. But they wouldn't have lasted, so what harm? Though if they were far better run than Galway (and in many ways they probably were alright), then why protect Galway? Because they got there first? That makes no sense.

[Buller]

They may well have gotten to the second tier on their own, sure. But they wouldn't have lasted, so what harm? Though if they were far better run than Galway (and in many ways they probably were alright), then why protect Galway? Because they got there first? That makes no sense.

To grow crowds and expand reach, which wouldn't happen in a million years in a small town with splitting a small pie.

[pineapple stu]

Is a badly run club or a well run club more likely to achieve that though?

Again, I think there's a fixation on Galway as a city because of Mervue/Salthill, which is a bit of an anomaly for the reasons I've given. Are you going to grow crowds and expand reach with a Kerry side as bad as they currently are? Would they not have been better proving themselves first, building momentum, improving facilities, having a bit of success, etc?

As a general plan, I think that's far more likely to succeed than the way things have currently happened.

[culloty82]

Yep, but my point is that given they're so uncompetitive, crowds will surely dwindle like at Cabo.

Again showing the folly of just making up a club and dumping them into the First Division. Far better for a side to be promoted into it; they should be far more likely to be competitive and can build on their momentum

Well yes, the initial plan was doubtless to apply for the third tier, but with the First Division vacancy arising from the Bray/Cabinteely merger, and three seasons at U19 level, they can hardly be blamed for deciding to step up. 15-20 points, which is still a realistic target, would have probably been the maximum return that could have been expected at the start of the season, and if the crowds stabilise between 600-800, it'll be at a more sustainable level than the early sell-outs.

[Buller]

Is a badly run club or a well run club more likely to achieve that though?

Again, I think there's a fixation on Galway as a city because of Mervue/Salthill, which is a bit of an anomaly for the reasons I've given. Are you going to grow crowds and expand reach with a Kerry side as bad as they currently are? Would they not have been better proving themselves first, building momentum, improving facilities, having a bit of success, etc?

As a general plan, I think that's far more likely to succeed than the way things have currently happened.

Its a fixation because its a really clear case study that splitting a small pie isn't a great idea and surely won't grow it.