Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II [Archive] - Page 21

legendz

26/05/2023, 9:19 PM

Interesting story coming from Mayo that they�re putting together an u21 Development squad that will play against some LoI clubs.

Surely this is fairly obvious step towards creating a side that will compete in a third tier.
CK United and Klub Kildare seem to be taking the better steps towards creating a side to compete in the third tier.

Also I see a few soundings again, this time from Declan Devine, about having u21 teams for LoI clubs.Are many LoI clubs likely to commit to more than soundings? Six fully committed LoI reserve teams, CK United and Klub Kildare should be enough to get a third tier off the ground.

Longfordian

27/05/2023, 8:44 AM

Klub Kildare can't be let in with that name. It sounds like a summer camp for primary school kids.

EalingGreen

27/05/2023, 4:22 PM

Six fully committed LoI reserve teams, CK United and Klub Kildare should be enough to get a third tier off the ground.Whatever else you might call it, a construction like that simply could not be considered to be a "Third Tier" of the LOI.

For implicit in any such deal is the idea that Licencing permitted, each participant should theoretically at least be capable of getting promoted to the next level up, with every FD club capable of being relegated into it, also prepared to drop down.

Simple fact is, many (most?) other league pyramids also have Reserve Leagues and/or under-age leagues eg U-23's/U21's/U-19's etc, but these run in tandem with the pyramid, not as part of it.

GUFCghost

27/05/2023, 7:16 PM

Whatever else you might call it, a construction like that simply could not be considered to be a "Third Tier" of the LOI.

For implicit in any such deal is the idea that Licencing permitted, each participant should theoretically at least be capable of getting promoted to the next level up, with every FD club capable of being relegated into it, also prepared to drop down.

Simple fact is, many (most?) other league pyramids also have Reserve Leagues and/or under-age leagues eg U-23's/U21's/U-19's etc, but these run in tandem with the pyramid, not as part of it.

Well it'd be better than nothing!

pineapple stu

27/05/2023, 7:29 PM

Simple fact is, many (most?) other league pyramids also have Reserve Leagues and/or under-age leagues eg U-23's/U21's/U-19's etc, but these run in tandem with the pyramid, not as part of it.
Actually most other pyramids have the reserve structure built in (though not underage teams)

So FC Basel II are in the Swiss third tier, Molde II are in the Norwegian fourth tier, Legia Warsaw II are in the Polish fourth tier, PAOK II are in the Greek second tier, and so on.

That said, a third tier of six reserve teams plus two other sides, as legendz suggests, isn't really a third tier. You can't add two teams to a reserve league and pretend it's a senior division.

CraftyToePoke

27/05/2023, 9:32 PM

Was surprised to learn only today that the Dutch have had a right dong dong to try to get a fully functioning pyramid established with clubs not wanting to meet the criteria to join the professional second tier mostly. The second tier there has twenty clubs & four of those were the reserve / youth sides of Ajax / Utrecht / PSV & AZ this season.

All the leagues are connected by a promotion and relegation system, but in order to be promoted to the Eerste Divisie a club has to submit a solid business plan to be approved by the Royal Dutch Football Association, as well as meet certain stadium demands, and some other demands that the association stated for all the teams in the top two leagues.

Before 2010 there was no promotion and relegation (based on league result) between the highest amateur level (back then the Hoofdklasse) and the professional leagues. In the 2010�11 season the Topklasse was introduced as an intermediate level between the professional and amateur leagues. Promotion was optional, so it was possible that the IJsselmeervogels who won the 2010�11 Topklasse, was not promoted because they did not want to be bound to the demands for playing in the Eerste Divisie.

In 2016 the Tweede Divisie was (re)introduced between the Topklasse (renamed to Derde Divisie) and Eerste Divisie to further work on stimulating promotion and relegation between the amateur and professional leagues. However, due to resistance from the amateur clubs to meet the demands for the professional leagues and worries from the professional clubs to face bankruptcy after relegation, mandatory promotion and relegation has been postponed until at least the 2022�23 season.

From 2023 to 2024, promotion and relegation between Eerste Divisie and Tweede Divisie has been introduced.

legendz

27/05/2023, 9:55 PM

Well it'd be better than nothing!
It sure would.

That said, a third tier of six reserve teams plus two other sides, as legendz suggests, isn't really a third tier. You can't add two teams to a reserve league and pretend it's a senior division.
Fair comment. It can be a starting point though. There are very few potential new first teams building through the youth structures put in place. Shamrock Rovers are the only standout candidate to field a reserve team. A so-called third tier will be doing well to start with 8 teams as suggested. It will also be doing well to have 4 first teams and upto 10 reserve teams long-term.

EalingGreen

29/05/2023, 10:53 AM

Actually most other pyramids have the reserve structure built in (though not underage teams)

So FC Basel II are in the Swiss third tier, Molde II are in the Norwegian fourth tier, Legia Warsaw II are in the Polish fourth tier, PAOK II are in the Greek second tier, and so on.Fair dues, I stand corrected.

Though looking closer, most of those leagues have rather more than 20 clubs in their top two tiers i.e. before you get to where the Reserve teams are. And when you do get there,. you're usually talking 3 or 4 Reserve teams in a division of maybe 12, 14 or 16 teams. That is, they supplement the pyramid, rather than (effectively) being it.

And in any case, 8 teams is not generally a proper basis for a league of any sort - 10 is usually the minimum.

That said, a third tier of six reserve teams plus two other sides, as legendz suggests, isn't really a third tier. You can't add two teams to a reserve league and pretend it's a senior division.Exactly.

JC_GUFC

29/05/2023, 4:31 PM

CK United and Klub Kildare seem to be taking the better steps towards creating a side to compete in the third tier.
Are many LoI clubs likely to commit to more than soundings? Six fully committed LoI reserve teams, CK United and Klub Kildare should be enough to get a third tier off the ground.

I'd have serious reservations around CK United entering the League at the moment.

This thread came back to life because I asked where they intended to play should this ever happen but there is nothing remotely suitable to being a League of Ireland ground that their teams currently use from what I can see.

On top of that their u19 team have lost all 10 of their matches in the first phase of the u19 League - so if anyone thinks Kerry FC are bad this season these lads would bring it to a whole new level next season. I'd imagine there would be some link-up with Carlow IT should they join the League, so they may get facilities and a team that way!

John Caulfield had a piece in the programme this weekend about the need for an u23/development team - he's been getting a bit of stick for his lack of use of underage players when we're cruising to wins in a lot of matches this season.

I would hope that if the 3rd tier is supplemented by these type of teams that they can't be promoted to Division 1 as happens in some other leagues.

culloty82

29/05/2023, 6:14 PM

I'd have serious reservations around CK United entering the League at the moment.

This thread came back to life because I asked where they intended to play should this ever happen but there is nothing remotely suitable to being a League of Ireland ground that their teams currently use from what I can see.

On top of that their u19 team have lost all 10 of their matches in the first phase of the u19 League - so if anyone thinks Kerry FC are bad this season these lads would bring it to a whole new level next season. I'd imagine there would be some link-up with Carlow IT should they join the League, so they may get facilities and a team that way!

John Caulfield had a piece in the programme this weekend about the need for an u23/development team - he's been getting a bit of stick for his lack of use of underage players when we're cruising to wins in a lot of matches this season.

I would hope that if the 3rd tier is supplemented by these type of teams that they can't be promoted to Division 1 as happens in some other leagues.

Just have the same rules that applied in the old A Championship - not just that the reserve sides couldn't be promoted, but the senior clubs would have to finish in the top three of the division to qualify for a play-off with the bottom First Division team, which would ensure that if they did come through that process, they would be able to make an impression on the second tier.

EalingGreen

29/05/2023, 6:43 PM

legendz

29/05/2023, 8:06 PM

Just have the same rules that applied in the old A Championship - not just that the reserve sides couldn't be promoted, but the senior clubs would have to finish in the top three of the division to qualify for a play-off with the bottom First Division team, which would ensure that if they did come through that process, they would be able to make an impression on the second tier.
Agreed on most of that. If a first team hold a First Division licence, finish as the top first team and are in the top half, e.g. 4 of 8 or 5 of 9, let them in a playoff. An active playoff system as much as possible within reason will give first teams in a third tier a lifeline. First Division clubs have been given a lifeline by 2nd to 5th entering the playoffs.

So effectively you're resurrecting the old 'A' Championship, but with a minor tweak.

What could possibly go wrong?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Championship
The main problem with the A Championship was that some Premier clubs detested having to enter a side. Pat's and Sligo were fiercely against it. The solution should have to remove the obligation on Premier clubs and possibly have attempted one national league instead of north and south. A lesson learned from the A Championship is not to have a repeat of the 3 clubs in Galway situation.

JC_GUFC

30/05/2023, 6:53 AM

Another team who will want in will be Limerick FC.

Pat O�Sullivan is still keeping this entity alive and likely will apply to A Championship.

Can the League/FAI just flat out refuse? I�d imagine he�ll have Hogan Park as their home venue.

This would bring back memories of the Galway situation. I don�t know would he have any clout to bring in decent Junior players.

sadloserkid

30/05/2023, 7:39 AM

JC_GUFC

30/05/2023, 9:14 AM

I'm probably more on the periphery of football in Limerick than you are at this stage JC but I wouldn't take it as a given that POS has any real interest in going senior again.

I doubt he can afford it anyway and the current 'project' is a convenient enough faux-altruistic shield for him to hide behind without risking any further exposure.

I presume his only interest is in keeping the "rights" to the Limerick name in League of Ireland football. I'm not sure he can just do that by running one "academy" team who just get hammered in every match they play, which is why I think he would be looking to enter a side in the A Championship. If he even causes some doubt around the feasibility of Treaty United that's enough for him I'd imagine.

There's obviously something still badly wrong in Limerick football that Treaty haven't been a success - previously people pointed to the move away from Markets Field having killed the interest in it. I know the Junior scene is very strong and hurling is going through a golden generation in city and county but Treaty are one of a very small handful of clubs who don't seem to have benefitted at all from the newly found interest in League of Ireland.

pineapple stu

30/05/2023, 9:50 AM

Another team who will want in will be Limerick FC.

Pat O�Sullivan is still keeping this entity alive and likely will apply to A Championship.

Can the League/FAI just flat out refuse? I�d imagine he�ll have Hogan Park as their home venue.
Just shows another problem with the current "We'll take whoever's interested" approach.

Ok, they shouldn't get promoted - unless the rest of the league is either ineligible for promotion or unsuited dross that loses pretty much every game at youth level and clearly isn't ready to step up to a third tier...

NeverFeltBetter

30/05/2023, 10:53 AM

LOI should steer well clear of any POS-related venture, though I do genuinely doubt he'd make an application at this stage. I can't find how old he is now. but I presume he must be pushing on, I don't know how much of an actual role he has in whatever Limerick FC is now.

Regards Treaty support, there's a combination of reasons of course, but never underestimate the fairweather nature of a lot of the potential support in the city, which has always been the way. If Treaty started a non-stop winning run this weekend and were flying high on the top of the table they could start getting closer to four figures. Consistent mid-table/last play-off spot with no realistic chance of promotion will get them a few hundred. LFC was like that too, albeit with a base support that was a bit more numerous in fairness.

JC_GUFC

26/06/2023, 2:54 PM

I resurrected this thread wondering about CK United and where they'd played. Someone on the GUFC forum posted that the club have submitted to Kilkenny County Council to keep Buckley Park zoned as Sporting/Community usage and that they'd be interested in being involved in being the anchor tenant.

The club is referred to Carlow Kilkenny FC, so that's obviously from before this season when they rebranded as CK United.

Still I suppose it is an indication of where they most likely see their future.

Meanwhile Mayo FC have successfully applied to be part of the u14 and u15 leagues next season with Kerry FC entering the Women's U17s from next season.

EalingGreen

26/06/2023, 4:36 PM

I resurrected this thread wondering about CK United and where they'd played. Someone on the GUFC forum posted that the club have submitted to Kilkenny County Council to keep Buckley Park zoned as Sporting/Community usage and that they'd be interested in being involved in being the anchor tenant.
Stadium nerd that I am, I googled Buckley Park.

Seems to have been a very tidy stadium back in the day, but has been allowed to become very delapidated since:
https://www.facebook.com/eireguide/posts/pfbid0CiazbK1joJxcKpKvJYr7siXdXwwPb3Qe34Ri72PRoivc DghQN4PR3wteMQPSqZQil

and

https://scoreline.ie/a-sad-sight-to-behold-buckley-park-a-shadow-of-its-former-self-following-years-of-lying-idle/

Would cost someone a lot of money to renovate it, I'd guess. Also seems to be a good bit out of the town (3-4 kms?).

nigel-harps1954

26/06/2023, 4:42 PM

It's a bit of a run out of Kilkenny, but it's a fine little ground. Wouldn't take a huge amount to get it up to scratch again.

Martinho II

26/06/2023, 8:43 PM

It's a bit of a run out of Kilkenny, but it's a fine little ground. Wouldn't take a huge amount to get it up to scratch again.

I doubt its as far out of Kilkenny as Bishopsgate is out of Longford Nigel! Shocked to see how diplated the ground has become. Last time I was there was 21years ago when Kilkenny City knocked us out of the FAI Cup in 02/03 season!

nigel-harps1954

26/06/2023, 8:53 PM

I doubt its as far out of Kilkenny as Bishopsgate is out of Longford Nigel! Shocked to see how diplated the ground has become. Last time I was there was 21years ago when Kilkenny City knocked us out of the FAI Cup in 02/03 season!

It's a fair bit out of the town Marty! Certainly not something I'd be walking anyway. About 4km out of the town centre. I was down around the ground a couple of years ago, but last was inside Buckley Park at the end of 2007 season with a big Harps crowd that night. Superb stand behind the goal that would rival anything in either division currently.

kksaints

26/06/2023, 9:08 PM

It's a fair bit out of the town Marty! Certainly not something I'd be walking anyway. About 4km out of the town centre. I was down around the ground a couple of years ago, but last was inside Buckley Park at the end of 2007 season with a big Harps crowd that night. Superb stand behind the goal that would rival anything in either division currently.

The entrance to Buckley park is up the same lane as a nursing home off the Kilkenny to Callan road around 4km from the City Centre. The entrance is incredibly easy to miss as it isn't signposted at all.

legendz

27/06/2023, 8:05 AM

We don�t know what the criteria is for the third tier, we may not need a stand...
https://carlow-nationalist.ie/2022/12/15/newly-branded-ck-utd-team-to-hold-mu19-trials-on-sunday/

nr637

27/06/2023, 8:47 AM

Now that the FAI have formally approved Mayo FC for the 2023/24 season, maybe they could start in the Third Tier Proposal, if it ever gets established!

:confused:

JC_GUFC

27/06/2023, 9:21 AM

Further in what I posted the submission seemed to indicate that Buckley Park is in an area earmarked for development of housing and amenities. That would presumably help with the accessibility of the ground from the town - it's probably a similar distance from the town as Monaghan was.

That's one of the issues for clubs like Longford and Wexford I feel, it's an effort to get to the ground to arrange a lift etc. so it's very easy for crowds to drop off when things aren't going well.

In saying that if that stand can be salvaged and the pitch re-sown you'd think it would be the best option rather than building a whole new ground.

Apparently it is privately owned though, so a lot would depend on what the owner's wishes are.

JC_GUFC

27/06/2023, 9:24 AM

Now that the FAI have formally approved Mayo FC for the 2023/24 season, maybe they could start in the Third Tier Proposal, if it ever gets established!

:confused:

Only for the Men's U14 and U15 leagues, so you'd imagine a senior team is probably at least 4 years away for them.

The women's senior team could be sooner than that if their u17 entry is successful. The Women's league is very young in any case so it wouldn't surprise me if they were entering into 2025/26 senior season.

EatYerGreens

27/06/2023, 10:40 AM

We don�t know what the criteria is for the third tier, we may not need a stand...
https://carlow-nationalist.ie/2022/12/15/newly-branded-ck-utd-team-to-hold-mu19-trials-on-sunday/

Am I the only one who thinks that 'CK United' is a terrible name for a football club ?

culloty82

27/06/2023, 11:34 AM

Unlike last season, there doesn't seem to be any new edition of the Licensing Manual on the FAI website - at least then, a person could track the timetable to see the deadlines Kerry had to meet, whereas now we don't know about any third-tier schedule if/when it does go ahead next year.

EalingGreen

27/06/2023, 1:24 PM

Am I the only one who thinks that 'CK United' is a terrible name for a football club ?Nope.

If they didn't want to be associated with a single town or county only (makes sense), then I think they should have gone for something like "South East Celtic FC" - a bit anodyne perhaps, but they could capitalise on being the only "Celts" in the LOI.

EatYerGreens

27/06/2023, 1:55 PM

Nope.

If they didn't want to be associated with a single town or county only (makes sense), then I think they should have gone for something like "South East Celtic FC" - a bit anodyne perhaps, but they could capitalise on being the only "Celts" in the LOI.

KilCarlow FC / CarlKenny FC? :)

Not The Irish Sea FC?

I'll get my coat...

There's surely got to be an opportunity for a team here called the Irish Rovers?

JC_GUFC

27/06/2023, 2:11 PM

Am I the only one who thinks that 'CK United' is a terrible name for a football club ?

I was bemoaning the fact on our forum that we have Wexford FC, Kerry FC and now Mayo FC.

Terribly unimaginative names - I understand that they don't want the new entity to be associated with (Castlebar) Celtic or (Westport) United in Mayo's case but 'Kingdom FC' could have been a bit different for Kerry.

EalingGreen

27/06/2023, 3:02 PM

'Kingdom FC' could have been a bit different for Kerry.Or even "Kerry Kings FC" - at least until they get (ahem) deposed...

EalingGreen

27/06/2023, 3:06 PM

There's surely got to be an opportunity for a team here called the Irish Rovers?Aye, but don't you know the fate which befell the original Irish Rover?

Sure even the poor oul dog was drowned...

sbgawa

27/06/2023, 3:38 PM

KilCarlow FC / CarlKenny FC? :)

Not The Irish Sea FC?

I'll get my coat...

There's surely got to be an opportunity for a team here called the Irish Rovers?

Are you trying to upset the sligo lads? they are a bit sensitive on this issue

legendz

27/06/2023, 5:11 PM

Now that the FAI have formally approved Mayo FC for the 2023/24 season, maybe they could start in the Third Tier Proposal, if it ever gets established!
:confused:
For years the First Division only had 3 series of fixtures, e.g. 27 games in 2019. The Premier Division and First Division both have 36 games this year. 11 teams playing 30 games wouldn't be ideal. Cutting 3 home games each.
With the Premier Division and First Division having a 36 game strong season, the third tier should build on that. Unexpected situations can arise. If there are 2 or 3 clubs with a First Division licence in a third tier, if any LoI club suffers an unexpected situation, a club can be ready to take their place in the following year. Where everything is going hunky dory, there can be a playoff mechanism from the third tier to First Division.
The number of potential first teams clubs in a third tier stands at 3. Kildare, CK and Mayo. Kildare and CK are likely to be the first two ready to join. The tipping point for a third tier then will be at least 6 LoI clubs fully committed to entering a second team. The running costs show be as low as entering an U19 team. The main additional cost will be the travel costs for a national league, as opposed to the regional leagues at youth level.

Martinho II

27/06/2023, 6:50 PM

With this new proposed 3rd tier does that mean relegation from the 1st Div? That was one criticism the last time this was launched in 09!

culloty82

27/06/2023, 9:16 PM

You'd expect and hope so, whether that would be automatically or after a play-off could be decided later, when the number of interested first teams becomes clear.

legendz

27/06/2023, 9:22 PM

The FAI are to create a third tier for the for the upcoming League of Ireland season, in which an adult Mayo FC team could potentially compete in their first year.
"It�s a better launching pad for a young Mayo League of Ireland team, rather than being thrown in at the deep end and being hockeyed every week,� said a source
https://www.mayonews.ie/news/home/1231785/mayo-fc-set-to-be-established.html
A source in Mayo seems to expect a third tier in 2024 and that Mayo FC will join that tier in 2026.

Promotion and relegation between the current First Division and the new third tier is on the cards but the reserve sides of existing League of Ireland clubs won�t move up or down.The Irish Mirror have suggested since the third tier talk first started that there is likely to be promotion/relegation.

nigel-harps1954

28/06/2023, 11:13 AM

It would be a totally pointless league if there were no promotion/relegation.

pineapple stu

28/06/2023, 11:15 AM

Yep - I don't see how that would be/was a criticism of it either?

EalingGreen

13/07/2023, 2:36 PM

Kinda related to a Third Tier in the LOI comprising a mix of separate clubs and Reserve teams was a proposal to introduce a new "Conference League" in the fifth tier of Scottish football (i.e. between the SFL and the Highland/Lowland leagues), which would have had 3 or 4 Reserve teams competing - Celtic, Rangers, Hearts etc. This was roundly rejected in a vote at a recent meeting of the SFA.

Mark Wotte, Dutch former Performance Director at the SFA explains here why he felt it a bad decision to reject it:
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/23648513.visionary-dutch-coach-rues-scottish-footballs-b-team-block/

While Craig Telfer, Stenhousemuir fan and presenter of the BBC's "View from the Terrace", argues why it was the right decision:
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/23652080.fan-view-conference-league-proposal-just-power-grab/

culloty82

30/09/2023, 1:23 PM

Is the third tier still going ahead next year? Perhaps we may hear details when licences are awarded in November, but surprising that nothing has leaked out so far.

GUFCghost

30/09/2023, 3:17 PM

I think we're more likely to see a new County FC type club added every so often then a revamp of the pyramid anytime soon.
FAI is broke, so whatever incentives they need to offer clubs to compete over a wider area isn't there

nigel-harps1954

17/12/2023, 1:34 PM

This is certainly interesting.

1736070957528240258

Buckett

17/12/2023, 2:04 PM

Hopefully they'll reach the Cup final every year and lose in proper Mayo tradition!

legendz

17/12/2023, 6:54 PM

If all the city clubs fielded a second team in the third tier, should it finally come about, it will possibly consist of:
1. Bohemians II
2. CK United
3. Cork City II
4. Derry City II
5. Galway United II
6. Klub Kildare
7. Mayo
8. Shamrock Rovers II
9. Shelbourne II
10. St Patrick's Athletic II
11. Treaty United II
12. Waterford II

2 Year Contract

17/12/2023, 7:41 PM