Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[Longfordian]

Kenny was responsible for our first success on the field which brought crowds out due to the novelty of it. After his initial good work around the town when he first came in, which increased interest from a very low base it was little to do with him personally though obviously he deserved the credit for the initial on the field success. Crowds dropped off when the initial novelty of being in the top division wore off after a few years. The style of football was just a convenient excuse.

[EatYerGreens]

Kenny was responsible for our first success on the field which brought crowds out due to the novelty of it. After his initial good work around the town when he first came in, which increased interest from a very low base it was little to do with him personally though obviously he deserved the credit for the initial on the field success. Crowds dropped off when the initial novelty of being in the top division wore off after a few years. The style of football was just a convenient excuse.

This is key really. Ireland's predominant sporting 'fan' culture is about big events and chasing success. You only have to look at the difference between the crowds GAA counties attract for league fixtures versus those for knock-outs. The same when Ireland qualify for a major football tournament, and people who rarely go anywhere near the Aviva are suddenly trying to pull all sorts of strings to get onto the bandwagon.

We're big game hunters. The week-in, week-out monotony of supporting football over an eight or nine month long season generally doesn't appeal to the Irish. But rather than be honest about that to ourselves, we just come out white sh!te excuses to put the blame onto everyone and everything else. "Not enough local players ; bad style of football ; weather ; blah blah.

We're an awful bunch of b0ll0x when you think about it.

[legendz]

The third tier should allow non-LoI teams, who've progressed through the youth leagues, the opportunity to join. A representative team like Kerry League wouldn't be able to get promoted. They would however have the opportunity of participating at that level. It could result in the formation of a club entity in time, if that happens to be the natural evolution for any non-LoI entity.

[peadar1987]

Its a valid argument but it does seem to help a connect between players and supporters, at least superficially. Its a long while back now but one of the reasons Dundalk stopped training in Dublin for Dublin based players is that the manager at the time wasnt the most punctual or reliable and players on occasions ran the session. Funny how the players said nothing until the manager left and their contracts were up for renewal!!

For an LOI club with attendances of 200, a squad of players bringing a couple of family and mates each can make a non-trivial difference to the gate.

[passinginterest]

Not really sure where this news fits, but I suppose it's somewhat relevant to further tiers of the league etc. https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40799793.html
Under 19 league will allow 4 overage players (2 under 20 and 2 any age). That will at least help some of the bigger squads give game time to players, especially those returning from injury or just on the fringe of squads.
Some interesting moves in the lower ages too, with the move to three 30 minute thirds and a requirement of at least 30 mins playing time for each player.

[Kingdom]

This is key really. Ireland's predominant sporting 'fan' culture is about big events and chasing success. You only have to look at the difference between the crowds GAA counties attract for league fixtures versus those for knock-outs. The same when Ireland qualify for a major football tournament, and people who rarely go anywhere near the Aviva are suddenly trying to pull all sorts of strings to get onto the bandwagon.

We're big game hunters. The week-in, week-out monotony of supporting football over an eight or nine month long season generally doesn't appeal to the Irish. But rather than be honest about that to ourselves, we just come out white sh!te excuses to put the blame onto everyone and everything else. "Not enough local players ; bad style of football ; weather ; blah blah.

We're an awful bunch of b0ll0x when you think about it.

We're cúnt$ really EYG.

[Brusher]

Brilliant post EYG !!

[Neish]

This is key really. Ireland's predominant sporting 'fan' culture is about big events and chasing success. You only have to look at the difference between the crowds GAA counties attract for league fixtures versus those for knock-outs. The same when Ireland qualify for a major football tournament, and people who rarely go anywhere near the Aviva are suddenly trying to pull all sorts of strings to get onto the bandwagon.

We're big game hunters. The week-in, week-out monotony of supporting football over an eight or nine month long season generally doesn't appeal to the Irish. But rather than be honest about that to ourselves, we just come out white sh!te excuses to put the blame onto everyone and everything else. "Not enough local players ; bad style of football ; weather ; blah blah.

We're an awful bunch of b0ll0x when you think about it.

Don't think it just an Irish thing though. Having spoke with some fans of lower or non league club in England down through the years they say much the same, half or less full stadiums most of the year but all the town/area suddenly big fans when chasing a title/promotion or a big FA cup game

[placid casual]

The key difference in that Neish is that I'm England there is a higher level of football to watch, whereas the LOI is the highest level of football in this country.

If it wasn't for Rovers, me mam living here, and the fact you can't get Manhattan peanuts or proper butchers white pudding anywhere else, I'd gladly walk away from this soft right wing, insular, parish pump political, banana republic and never give it a backward glance.

The risible Sid Vicious got it spot on one time in his life. Asked about the opinion of 'the man in the street', he replied "I've met the man in the street, he's a c***"

[EatYerGreens]

Don't think it just an Irish thing though. Having spoke with some fans of lower or non league club in England down through the years they say much the same, half or less full stadiums most of the year but all the town/area suddenly big fans when chasing a title/promotion or a big FA cup game

But that won't be because the people in those towns are watching Spanish or German football instead. It'll be because they're watching/following a bigger English club in the region. And they'll also bear no ill will towards their local non-league side and happily go watch them when they're doing well, whereas in Ireland those who love English football often have a real disdain for the LOI.

There's also usually a lot of overlap in support between big and little clubs in close proximity in England - almost like a big brother little brother thing. So Gateshead's crowds go up whenever Newcastle aren't at home, for example. A decent numberof English fans would actively support both a big and a little club at the same time.

This webpiece sums it all up for me : THE BEST SUPPORTERS IN THE WORLD? IRELAND’S ENDURING DELUSION – Between the Stripes (https://betweenthestripes.net/news/the-best-supporters-in-the-world-irelands-enduring-delusion/)

[EatYerGreens]

If it wasn't for Rovers, me mam living here, and the fact you can't get Manhattan peanuts or proper butchers white pudding anywhere else, I'd gladly walk away from this soft right wing, insular, parish pump political, banana republic and never give it a backward glance.

But you'd probably end up in England, America or Australia - which are genuinely right wing. Ireland is just a weird mix of right and left stuff at the same time. Hence it's got better pensions than Britain, but you have to pay for healthcare. It's neo-liberal on Corporation Tax, but has nationalised far fewer industries than the Brits. Etc etc

[Nesta99]

But you'd probably end up in England, America or Australia - which are genuinely right wing. Ireland is just a weird mix of right and left stuff at the same time. Hence it's got better pensions than Britain, but you have to pay for healthcare. It's neo-liberal on Corporation Tax, but has nationalised far fewer industries than the Brits. Etc etc

Not entirely true with means tested free care, and what is paid for treatment is a relatively small surcharge for what is often generally very costly. An almost entirely free service like the NHS is abused and battered by many users and causes unnecessary waiting times. We introduced a 24hr GP service in a NHS ED that is paid for as a choice after being triaged as a non emergency - numbers and waiting times and associated cost dropped by nearly 30%. A hybrid system that is fair in means testing will always be more accessible to those who need it most, and free up resources for areas that get neglected like eldercare, which is dreadful in England/Wales, and Mental Health Services here. With the pandemic expansion being needed less, but needs also to remain on standby, and with some proper thinking on lowering the cost of living, there wont be a better opportunity to take a good swipe at resourcing the HSE fully and cull inefficiencies. The will to address a public health emergency shows how quickly thinks can be scaled up and payed for - so the problem being too big to fix is no longer an excuse!

[EalingGreen]

But that won't be because the people in those towns are watching Spanish or German football instead. It'll be because they're watching/following a bigger English club in the region. And they'll also bear no ill will towards their local non-league side and happily go watch them when they're doing well, whereas in Ireland those who love English football often have a real disdain for the LOI.

There's also usually a lot of overlap in support between big and little clubs in close proximity in England - almost like a big brother little brother thing. So Gateshead's crowds go up whenever Newcastle aren't at home, for example. A decent numberof English fans would actively support both a big and a little club at the same time.

Agree with all of this, esp the big club/little club bit. For example, Robert Plant is a well-known Wolves fanatic, but he still nabbed a ticket for Kidderminster's FA Cup game yesterday.

More generally, I remember Arsene Wenger pointing out that England had by far the strongest football culture in the world. And if you think about it, it supports over 100 f-t professional clubs - more than twice as many as comparable countries like Italy, Spain, Germany or France.

Clubs like Burnley, in a town of 100k and surrounded by giant clubs, can still support PL football and draw 20k crowds. Greater Birmingham is not especially big, but still supports 4 decent-sized teams. While if you compare the smaller clubs in eg London with those of Madrid, Paris or Munich/Berlin, Palace, WHU, Fulham, QPR, Millwall, Charlton or even little old Brentford are much bigger than their continental counterparts.

If the Championship was its own separate league in a separate country, it would the 5th or 6th best supported league in Europe. And going down below that, you have teams like Sunderland, Sheff Wed, Ipswich, Bolton and Bradford regularly drawing five figure gates, sonetimes 20k, 30k or more. Why even Stockport Couny are pulling in 5k every week in the NL, and were even in the early season i.e. before their current run took them to the top of the table.

While for all its own regular under-achievement, the England NT still draws in far bigger crowds for friendlies or qualifiers against San Marino etc, than comparable continental countries.

Though perhaps it is Engliand, with its obsession with the professional game, which is as much an outlier, as ROI is for its bandwagonning tendancy?

[EalingGreen]

Anyhow, getting back on topic, Scotland can maintain a league of four divisions/42 clubs down to Highland/Lowland level below.

And even little NI can operate a pyramic which goes from a Senior League of 2 divisions/24 clubs, with Promotion and Relegation through to Intermediate level, and further through to Junior level (in theory at least!).

Therefore there can be no good reason why ROI couldn't have something similar, if the vision and the will were there (stress the "good").

[pineapple stu]

There's playoffs from the Highland/Lowland down to the next tier now as well - so that's at least six levels.

Means an almost certain end to Fort William flailing about at the foot of the Highland League

[Neish]

But that won't be because the people in those towns are watching Spanish or German football instead. It'll be because they're watching/following a bigger English club in the region. And they'll also bear no ill will towards their local non-league side and happily go watch them when they're doing well, whereas in Ireland those who love English football often have a real disdain for the LOI.

There's also usually a lot of overlap in support between big and little clubs in close proximity in England - almost like a big brother little brother thing. So Gateshead's crowds go up whenever Newcastle aren't at home, for example. A decent numberof English fans would actively support both a big and a little club at the same time.

This webpiece sums it all up for me : THE BEST SUPPORTERS IN THE WORLD? IRELAND’S ENDURING DELUSION – Between the Stripes (https://betweenthestripes.net/news/the-best-supporters-in-the-world-irelands-enduring-delusion/)

Hiow do you know their not watching Spanish or German football?

SKY etc don't just buy right to such games for the Irish market. And for all the cross over with bigger football clubs you mention in england, we have similar with the GAA here in Ireland

[EatYerGreens]

Hiow do you know their not watching Spanish or German football?

If only because the games are not on at the same time :D

Seriously - how many English people do you meet or even hear about who's first club is Spanish or German ? You'd be into the realms of freakish exceptions.

[EalingGreen]

The FAI is about to unveil their 3 year Strategy just now (on YouTube).

According to Dan McDonnell, this is to include a new 3rd tier LOI by 2023 (also a 2nd tier in WNL by 2025):
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/fais-need-for-government-funds-to-fulfil-their-vision-for-the-future-leaves-soccer-body-in-state-of-purgatory-41319960.html

[nigel-harps1954]

Also part of the document:

"Commence consultation on the formation of an Irish football pyramid by Q4, 2022 with an agreed and transformed football pyramid structure in place by 2025"

[pineapple stu]

That sounds very promising - albeit that it has to fall into the realm of "believe it when I see it" for now.

[nigel-harps1954]

Key LOI related bullet points:



Commence consultation on the formation of an Irish football pyramid by Q4, 2022 with an agreed and transformed football pyramid structure in place by 2025
A third tier in the League of Ireland by 2023 and a second tier in the Women’s National League by 2025
A top 30 UEFA league co-efficient for the League of Ireland by 2025
Full-time staff targets working within League of Ireland clubs to be agreed
Academy certification system introduced with the League of Ireland by 2023

[Longfordian]

Good luck with bullets 1 and 3. The rest are feasible, if ambitious.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, just to put 30th in the UEFA rankings in context, at the end of last year it was Poland with 15.125. That'll increase by 2025 with the Conference League allowing more teams second (or third) chances, and we've already got our first two markers for it - 1.875 and 2.875 from 2021 and 2020. So we probably need at least 4.000 per year for the next three years to hit that target. And I don't think it's possible to change that quickly to be honest.

I mean, aim for it for sure. I just hope it's not a sign the plan is a bit long on aspiration and short on practicality

[SeanDrog]

Key LOI related bullet points:



A top 30 UEFA league co-efficient for the League of Ireland by 2025


I wonder how they believe they can directly influence this at the FAI level. Genuinely interested.

[Hitman]

I wonder how they believe they can directly influence this at the FAI level. Genuinely interested.

By creating the environment for success presumably.

[EatYerGreens]

I wonder how they believe they can directly influence this at the FAI level. Genuinely interested.

The problem is that they need to have some sort of benchmark and target for the league improving in quality, and they're arem;y many of those available. I guess they could've gone for 'a club in European groups stages every other year' similar to the ambition for the national teams.

[pineapple stu]

I wonder how they believe they can directly influence this at the FAI level. Genuinely interested.
Increase funding is the obvious one I guess. Hard when the FAI's broke though.

I'm tempted to say "increase supports for clubs", but that's just words with no real substance.

Otherwise...yeah, not sure.

[sbgawa]

Unless the FAI have gotten assurances from Government of funding none of this makes any difference and or sense.
We are conditioned to living off scraps but if the Government committed as much to the LOI as the greyhounds we could have full time academy set ups with paid coaches and make a start on improving facilities at all LOI clubs.
The fact that none of this money is likely to come means the FAI "ambitions" are to basically cheerlead and hope that Rovers or someone else get group stages while doing nothing more than clapping and staying out of the way.
The fact that they are attaching themselves to a vanity project says it all really

[sadloserkid]

The more I think about it the more likely I think it is that next season's 3-tier league will consist of three divisions of six teams left and we'll actually lose a club rather than gaining any new ones. Might even lose two clubs and get Rovers II again. Would be very FAI. :)

[EalingGreen]

I must say, I'm very impressed by the FAI's ability to spin this waffle out to 68 pages!

The IFA equivalent only managed a paltry 18 pages - and it goes out to 2027!
https://www.irishfa.com/media/37518/a-roadmap-for-football-irish-fa-corporate-strategy-2022-2027.pdf

Maybe the difference is that yours is a "Strategy", whereas ours is a mere "Roadmap"?

Or maybe Hill is being paid by the word?

I suppose it keeps Powerpoint in business, but either way, some rare oul ******** in the both of them lol.

[Nesta99]

With semantics generally very important in Northern Ireland maybe it was just least said soonest mended. FAI has no shortage of documents to indulge in some rehashing waffle!

[sbgawa]

The more I think about it the more likely I think it is that next season's 3-tier league will consist of three divisions of six teams left and we'll actually lose a club rather than gaining any new ones. Might even lose two clubs and get Rovers II again. Would be very FAI. :)

Current two divisions i reckon but with a third division made up of Kerry , Mayo , Club Kildare. Carlow/Kilkenny, Limerick (see below), Cavan Monaghan, Shamrock Rovers ii + maybe 1 or two other reserve teams.
The FAI can by way of grant cover the expenses for the entry of a senior team by the areas with a current underage set up (above) and call it a continuation of the underage setup pipeline.
Fielding the team will be easy just play this years under 19s as a senior team next year instead of those kids going off to play junior football plus a few local lads who like the idea of playing LOI
Also lets not forget Irish Sea FC + any other randomers that i haven't considered here

(Limerick FC (as opposed to Treaty have teams in the underage system and have applied for a senior licence)

[Buller]

https://twitter.com/FAIreland/status/1491033802915053570

FAI to inject an extra €1.5m into Grassroots football in 2022, in addition to the €2m in COVID-19 resilience funding from Government.

The Government has already awarded €2m in COVID-19 relief funding which will see €1.9m go directly to clubs and €100k to affiliates via an application process agreed with Sport Ireland.

Grassroots Director Ger McDermott added: “This additional funding will, I am sure, allow our clubs and affiliates to recover quickly from the financial effects of COVID-19 and empower their plans for the future.

“The money will be allocated to projects that will make a big difference to growing Grassroots football in many of the areas that serve as the lifeblood of adult amateur and underage football across Ireland.


Don't think this money amounts to much when spread out over hundreds of grassroots clubs across the country - but at least its some sort of substance behind their pie in the sky plans!

[EalingGreen]

Current two divisions i reckon but with a third division made up of Kerry , Mayo , Club Kildare. Carlow/Kilkenny, Limerick (see below), Cavan Monaghan, Shamrock Rovers ii + maybe 1 or two other reserve teams.
The FAI can by way of grant cover the expenses for the entry of a senior team by the areas with a current underage set up (above) and call it a continuation of the underage setup pipeline.
Fielding the team will be easy just play this years under 19s as a senior team next year instead of those kids going off to play junior football plus a few local lads who like the idea of playing LOI
Also lets not forget Irish Sea FC + any other randomers that i haven't considered here

(Limerick FC (as opposed to Treaty have teams in the underage system and have applied for a senior licence)
Assuming you're on the right track regarding the new teams, what happens at the end of the first season?

For when one (two?) of these new entities gets promoted to the First Division, how are they supposed to survive at that level, without having previously had at least a few seasons establishing and preparing themselves for senior football?

While a First Division team getting relegated to the Third tier would likely suffer a severe culture shock, never mind a financial one. Meaning that if they didn't get straight back up again, they could find themselves "levelling down", rather than "levelling up"?

[sbgawa]

I don't think the promotion relegation thing is a huge issue tbh. Looking at cobh or athlone for example who would potentially be relegated (based on last season) would their crowds / money be any lower if they were relegated?? If anything potentially being in a promotion scrap and title battle in division 2 might be a better draw than perennially being bottomish of division 1.
Clubs in the UK often go from premier league to league 1 and back up.
Also expenses for playing in division 2 for the smaller fully amateur teams wouldn't be appreciably different.. the 3rd tier could effectively start as a mostly under 20 league incorporating the 2022 under 19s fairly easily if the grants were there while also allowing clubs to sign older players.

[pineapple stu]

Cobh were in the A Championship before and while I think they struggled a bit in it, readjusting is the nature of promotion/relegation. They were only in it for a year or two I think before folding entirely for another bit and then being re-elected. I wouldn't be too worried about that aspect - the regional divisions will help. Ditto new teams being promoted - at least they can be relegated again, which was the big problem before.

[EatYerGreens]

Assuming you're on the right track regarding the new teams, what happens at the end of the first season?

For when one (two?) of these new entities gets promoted to the First Division, how are they supposed to survive at that level, without having previously had at least a few seasons establishing and preparing themselves for senior football?

While a First Division team getting relegated to the Third tier would likely suffer a severe culture shock, never mind a financial one. Meaning that if they didn't get straight back up again, they could find themselves "levelling down", rather than "levelling up"?

This is exactly what happened when a second tier was introduced in the LOI - with Sligo, Drogheda, Shelbourne and Longford relegated into the new lower level at the end of the 1984/5 season, and then new club Bray Wanderers promoted as First Division champions at the end of 1985/6. Life went on though.

Same with the situation regarding the pyramid in Scotland being extended to include non-league (Highland/Lowland Leagues). It's just the way it is with starting off promotion and relegation. Unless you're proposing a period of having a closed shop to counter this ?

[EalingGreen]

This is exactly what happened when a second tier was introduced in the LOI - with Sligo, Drogheda, Shelbourne and Longford relegated into the new lower level at the end of the 1984/5 season, and then new club Bray Wanderers promoted as First Division champions at the end of 1985/6. Life went on though.

You may be right.

But surely the difference then was that with those 5 clubs you cite, every one of them had already been in existence for decades, meaning that they had support, personnel and structure to carry them while they adjusted to their new circumstances?

Which is a whole lot different from inventing a stack of entirely new clubs from various junior district leagues, esp in areas of the country which don't already have a particularly strong football culture (at least at a high level)?



Same with the situation regarding the pyramid in Scotland being extended to include non-league (Highland/Lowland Leagues). It's just the way it is with starting off promotion and relegation. Unless you're proposing a period of having a closed shop to counter this ?
Hardly analagous, since the Highland League had already existed since 1893(!), meaning it only had to be integrated into the existing structure.

And while the Lowland League was a new introduction, even there it was just arranging and integrating current clubs, many of them long-standing and drawn from the existing South and East of Scotland leagues.

Whereas with the LOI situation, you're devising a brand new league entirely, with brand new clubs.

Which is not to say it won't work, but Evolution is usually a lot less painful than Revolution.

[pineapple stu]

I think it's definitely fair to say that an existing club like, say, Tralee Dynamoes, would very likely be better placed to step up than a new entity called Mayo FC alright.

That said, at least putting them in a pyramid where relegation to a regionalised lower tier is an option to rebuild is better than the current setup.

[sbgawa]

The only logical outcome to having the clubs competing in the underage structures is to produce clubs in those areas that those kids can continue to play football for.
I think you could call this years 19s becoming next years senior team as evolution as it allows LOI underage players to continue directly into the senior section.
Admittedly as we have seen before with Monaghan, Kildare etc etc it is hard to keep these things going but maybe if expectations are set as the 3rd division being an extension of the underage section and expenses are kept down it doesnt need buckets of money to survive.
The cost of running effectively an under 23's team can be kept at the same level as an under 19 team.

[EalingGreen]

The only logical outcome to having the clubs competing in the underage structures is to produce clubs in those areas that those kids can continue to play football for.
I think you could call this years 19s becoming next years senior team as evolution as it allows LOI underage players to continue directly into the senior section.
Admittedly as we have seen before with Monaghan, Kildare etc etc it is hard to keep these things going but maybe if expectations are set as the 3rd division being an extension of the underage section and expenses are kept down it doesnt need buckets of money to survive.
The cost of running effectively an under 23's team can be kept at the same level as an under 19 team.
But isn't the whole point about a pyramid that there shouldn't be too much of a gap between the different tiers, so that it isn't too much of a shock for teams moving up or down between them?

Presently your top tier is mostly f-t professional, while your second tier is basically p-t professional.

But if your third tier is little more than geerously-expensed amateur, the problem will come when the winners get promoted to the second tier and second tier clubs get relegated to the third.

How much money will this third tier generate, over and above what is needed for mowing pitches and hiring the team bus for away games? Sponsors aren't likely to flock to a brand new club in a small provincial town, nor paying spectators either, especially if the club is near the bottom of the league, losing more than they win. Nor are you likely to have many club stalwarts who will volunteer their time selling raffle tickets and organising social functions etc to raise money etc.

Where are you going to find 10 new stadia of a decent standard, with stands, turnstiles, floodlights, media facilities etc? Training facilities to senior standard? Sure you might have 2 or 3 Tralee Dynamos or Monaghan Utds who could step up, or the odd Cabinteely who might transform from youth to adult. But 8, 10, 12 such clubs?

While without the basic infrastructure of finance and facilities etc, the better and more ambitious players and coaches will likely be tempted away very quickly to bigger clubs who have the money and resources to allow them to progress their careers in senior football, especially if their existing club doesn't have the pull of being their long-established, home town club where their dad, uncles and mates etc all played down the years.


By contrast, if you look at eg the IL third tier, the youngest club is already 40 years old, while the oldest date from 1880, with all bar PSNI established in its own city/town/village, rather than a (vague) region:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/premier-intermediate/2021-2022/standings/

[pineapple stu]

Presently your top tier is mostly f-t professional, while your second tier is basically p-t professional.

But if your third tier is little more than geerously-expensed amateur, the problem will come when the winners get promoted to the second tier and second tier clubs get relegated to the third.
Could not the same thing be said about the league up North though?

(And again, I do agree with you about making clubs up)

[EalingGreen]

Could not the same thing be said about the league up North though?

Not really.

Take the example of eg Portadown FC. They were always a leading provincial club, founded in 1887 in a proper footballing town, and joining the IL in 1924. They've won 4 IL's and 3 Irish Cups in the not-too-distant past and played in Europe many times.

Then a few years back they "fell on hard times" (don't ask why!) and dropped down to the second tier, where they scuttled around for a bit, before finally getting back up for last season.

The point being that they were replaced in the Championship by another Portadown club, Annagh Utd (founded 1963), who had won promotion from the third tier for the first time. And while Ports are struggling to escape relegation this season, Annagh, who have a great wee set-up (ground, reserves, youth, admin etc) are competing well at their new level.

Meanwhile, it looks as though Warrenpoint (1987) will certainly drop out of the top tier this season, but assuming they do, they should still be ok next season. While they'll likely be replaced by their near neighbours, Newry City (2012, but originally 1918), who might give it a decent enough go in the Prem - they've certainly been there before.

As for who replaces Newry from the third tier, it's looking like Armagh City (1963) or Bangor (1918), both of whom have played in the top tier previously, never mind the second.

All of which shows that these are all well-established clubs, who remain reasonably stable and competitive whether they have a good season and get promoted, or a bad one and get relegated. And that strength in depth runs pretty much through the top three tiers, with the Intermediate and Junior leagues further below generally doing ok too. And if this is at a lower overall standard than the LOI (or the best of it, at least), when you consider the relative size and resources of the two countries, the IL can claim to be doing pretty well (imo).

The overall point being that none of this structure was achieved overnight; on the contrary, it's taken many years of planning and hard work.

[pineapple stu]

I think you're confusing two points here - one about creating new clubs rather than encourage existing ones (which I agree with) and one about the gap between tiers (which I think is a similar issue to the IL)

OK, Portadown get relegated - as did Cork. They'll be back. Annagh United got promoted - and of course we don't have an equivalent because our structure is silly.

But the gap between IL Premier (Linfield, Coleraine, Glens, even Larne with their purple bricks) to second tier (Annagh, H&W, Stute) is by and large as big as here, and when you go down to the third tier (which surely has to be "little more than generously-expensed amateur") you can even see a former big name (Distillery) who are, as you fear for the LoI, "levelling down rather than levelling up"

I think the arguments around the gaps between the tiers is very similar to the IL and is just something that happens when you bring in various tiers. I don't see that as a problem per se.

[EalingGreen]

I think you're confusing two points here - one about creating new clubs rather than encourage existing ones (which I agree with) and one about the gap between tiers (which I think is a similar issue to the IL)

OK, Portadown get relegated - as did Cork. They'll be back. Annagh United got promoted - and of course we don't have an equivalent because our structure is silly.

But the gap between IL Premier (Linfield, Coleraine, Glens, even Larne with their purple bricks) to second tier (Annagh, H&W, Stute) is by and large as big as here, and when you go down to the third tier (which surely has to be "little more than generously-expensed amateur") you can even see a former big name (Distillery) who are, as you fear for the LoI, "levelling down rather than levelling up"

I think the arguments around the gaps between the tiers is very similar to the IL and is just something that happens when you bring in various tiers. I don't see that as a problem per se.
I agree that there is a danger that the top four or five clubs in the IL Prem could soon be out of reach of the rest of the teams in NI (support, European money, benefactors etc). Though that is happening everywhere eg English PL, Scotland (obv) and even the LOI Prem.

But that wasn't really what I was saying. For while the gap eg between Linfield at the top of the IL, and PSNI at the bottom of the third tier, is obviously so huge as to be completely unbridgeable, my point is that the gap between the bottom few IL Prem clubs, and the top few Championship clubs isn't that big. Ditto the gap between the bottom few Championship clubs and those at the top of the third tier.

Whereas there is a danger that if you suddenly introduce a whole third tier of 10 made-up clubs to the LOI, without their having any of the history, support, finances, stadium or infrastructure needed to survive at senior level, it could mean that clubs promoted from the 3rd tier find that no sooner have they "climbed Carrauntoohillf", than they find they're required to "climb Mont Blanc".

While clubs getting relegated from the second tier find themselves "dropping off a cliff".

[EalingGreen]

Remember, too, that the LOI presently has only 19 clubs in the top two divisions, whereas the IL has 24.

Which means that if No.s 20 to 24 in the latter are that much further from Linfield than, say 18 or 19 in the LOI are to Shams, they must nonetheless be closer to the teams at the top of the third tier - not least because most of them were playing down there at one time or another!

[nigel-harps1954]

To be fair, you're really oversimplfying things.

There's no reason the likes of a Kerry side, playing out of a decent facility in Mounthawk Park, couldn't be equally as successful as any long established junior or intermediate side. They've sown the seeds at underage level this past five or six years. They're on the edge of Tralee, a town of 25,000 people. It's well enough equipped, in theory at least, to host a LOI side.

Monaghan United would be in the driving seat to take one of the places. They're currently playing in the Ulster Senior League, and have long established links with the LOI already.

There was a Leinster Senior League club who mentioned big plans, was in Bluebell or Crumlin? Cabo departure leaves a gap for a Dublin side in the third tier. One of the thriving LSL sides might fancy a crack at it.


There's plenty of sides out there who could, and should, be able to step into a third division, if it were regionalised. The idea to fill up the rest of the spots with LOI B sides should be welcomed, and a regional North/South division would make it more cost effective for teams to step into.

[pineapple stu]

I agree that there is a danger that the top four or five clubs in the IL Prem could soon be out of reach of the rest of the teams in NI (support, European money, benefactors etc). Though that is happening everywhere eg English PL, Scotland (obv) and even the LOI Prem.
OK - but that's not the point that I'm saying you're making.


my point is that the gap between the bottom few IL Prem clubs, and the top few Championship clubs isn't that big. Ditto the gap between the bottom few Championship clubs and those at the top of the third tier.
And in the LoI, you have UCD/Drogheda/Harps at the bottom of the Premier and at the top of the First you have Cork/Waterford/Galway. That's also not that big.

I think you're grossly overestimating the LoI First Division to think that promotion to it is equivalent to climbing Carrauntoohil. And yes, clubs being relegated from the FD could "drop off a cliff" - but no different to NI, as in the example of Lisburn Distillery that I gave.

And again, I agree that the jump would be better made by established clubs rather than brand new ones.


There was a Leinster Senior League club who mentioned big plans, was in Bluebell or Crumlin?
Ballymun United

[EatYerGreens]

Also important to note that promotion and relegation leads to a degree of 'trickle-down' across a pyramid. If you look at the non-league/conference scene in England now versus how it was when P&R was first introduced out of it in 1987 it is light years away in terms of the difference, Even if you look at the conference level in England 15 to 20yrs ago vs now, there is no comparison. It's only in the last 10 years or so that big clubs like Luton, Wimbledon, Bristol Rovers, Halifax etc started being at conference level in numbers, which has led since to the Conference Premier becoming an almost entirely professional league. And a lot of the clubs who replaced them in the Football League have become established there now (e.g. Stevenage, Forest Green, Crawley, Fleetwood, Cheltenham).

The dynamic is a three-way thing. Firstly some bigger clubs fall down the pyramid - though still retaining the potential they had in terms of support, sponsorship etc. That therefore generally over time lifts the quality of the tiers they fall into - by having more established clubs with better stadia, bigger actual/potential fanbases, larger gates at games home and away etc. Portadown were outnumbering the home support at pretty much every away game they played whilst in the IL second tier.

Then secondly you have the movement the other way - with smaller clubs rising up the pyramid and getting more established there, which helps them to grow both fanbase and facilities (though it takes time). An example of this in the IL would be Dunganon Swifts - who first got promoted to the top tier in 2003, and have become an established top tier club since then. With Stangmore Park greatly improved, and the team making an Irish Cup Final and also playing in Europe twice. Would Stangmore be the ground it is now if they'd never played in the IL top tier ? Obviously it wouldn't (because it wouldn't have needed to be).

And then finally there are clubs who have never played at a high level in the pyramid but aspire to do so - and therefore invest in their facilities, team etc to be in a position where that would be possible some day (ratehr ths win promotion on the pitch and then get refused on the basis of facilities). Harland & Wolff Welders with their fantastic new stadium would be a good example of that. Which again improves the whole eco-system and lifts the bar across the level they currently play at.

The net result of the three dynamics above is that the ebb and flow of clubs up and down lifts the standards slowly across all levels of the pyramid. It's an undeniable dynamic, but does take a bit of time to naturally occur/evolve.

[EatYerGreens]

I agree that there is a danger that the top four or five clubs in the IL Prem could soon be out of reach of the rest of the teams in NI (support, European money, benefactors etc). Though that is happening everywhere eg English PL, Scotland (obv) and even the LOI Prem.

But that wasn't really what I was saying. For while the gap eg between Linfield at the top of the IL, and PSNI at the bottom of the third tier, is obviously so huge as to be completely unbridgeable, my point is that the gap between the bottom few IL Prem clubs, and the top few Championship clubs isn't that big. Ditto the gap between the bottom few Championship clubs and those at the top of the third tier.

Whereas there is a danger that if you suddenly introduce a whole third tier of 10 made-up clubs to the LOI, without their having any of the history, support, finances, stadium or infrastructure needed to survive at senior level, it could mean that clubs promoted from the 3rd tier find that no sooner have they "climbed Carrauntoohillf", than they find they're required to "climb Mont Blanc".

While clubs getting relegated from the second tier find themselves "dropping off a cliff".

Why are you assuming that an LOI 3rd tier would be an entity made up of entirely new. rootless clubs ? It's likely that a number of them will be existing clubs taking a step up. Either clubs already paying senior football at the non-league level, or clubs currently in the underage system who would just evolve to add a senior men's team as well. And even in the cases of new clubs, they wouldn't be literally pulled out of thin air. They would have some existing support structures, stadia etc etc. A bit like how Kildare County was a 'new' club when it joined the LOI, but in reality wasn't really. Same if a Monaghan/Cavan club joins the 3rd tier.

No-one as far as I can see is proposing to have a third tier entirely made up of Sporting Fingals playing out of non-existing stadia.