Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[pineapple stu]

Its a fixation because its a really clear case study that splitting a small pie isn't a great idea and surely won't grow it.
But it's also a really clear case study that a proper pyramid - which is generally what it's used to argue against - would actually have mitigated against.


Well yes, the initial plan was doubtless to apply for the third tier, but with the First Division vacancy arising from the Bray/Cabinteely merger, and three seasons at U19 level, they can hardly be blamed for deciding to step up.
For the record, I don't think you can blame Kerry at all for wanting to step up in the circumstances. I think the fault here lies more with the daft system we have for electing senior clubs, one which is pretty much unique throughout Europe. I want to see Kerry do well (having lived there a few years), but I think the way ye've come into the league is a hindrance to that unfortunately.

[EalingGreen]

To grow crowds and expand reach, which wouldn't happen in a million years in a small town with splitting a small pie.Surely the point is that if a town like Galway isn't capable of supporting two, never mind three, Senior clubs, then it should not be permitted to? That is, the weakest one or two should be replaced.

The real problem lying not with Galway itself, as in the fact that the FAI doesn't have any suitable replacements lined up, essentially because they lack any mechanism to produce more Senior-level clubs. Which for a wealthy country with a 5 million population which has long been very interested in football etc should ordinarily be puzzling.

Except that to this outsider, it's not puzzling at all. That is, the FAI/LOI seem somehow incapable of adopting, or unwilling to adopt, the method that just about every other comparable country does when seeking to expand its domestic club game i.e. a pyramid system.

In fact I'd guess it's worse again in that it's probably both. That is, if you're the FAI it's much too difficult and long term, also a distraction from their "real" business (international football), while if you're an existing Senior club you probably don't want the added competition.

Meaning that if ambitious Junior/Intermediate clubs aren't getting any lead or encouragement from the FAI and LOI etc, then they will look to grow in other ways. Which brings us back eg to Mullingar Athletic, who look to have settled on the Community route for growth, rather than the Senior route.

Which when you think about it, is worse again, since there is no good reason why a competitive Senior club cannot also have a thriving Community presence, as at least some existing Senior clubs presumably already have.

Now what was someone saying about an AIL?

[sbgawa]

IMO it isnt helped that there are so many problems to solve in football in Ireland that the CEO lives in England.
He was supposed to move over then covid happened and his relocation money is being spent on ocasional flights and hotels instead , meanwhile Zoom is good enough supposedly.
We need root and branch reform meaning loads of small leagues folded into each other , blazers out players in.
Junior football played on same schedule as LOI but with a month off in summer instead of two weeks...
Making that happen will need numerous meetings and a strong arm operating on the ground and traveling around Ireland.......
What we have now wont deliver, not the guys fault himself its the FAI board who allowed this happen

[JC_GUFC]

I don't think it's like the FAI CEO is never here! He was at Rovers v Pat's on Monday and is a regular at LoI games. With so much remote working I really don't see where he's living as much of an issue. Were he living in Westmeath, for example, would that be any different to him living in England if he was at home anyway?

There's been a bit of talk of the Galway/Mervue/Salthill situation developing I see...

Just from my understanding of what went on there - I genuinely think Mervue were interested in joining the League of Ireland, maybe a bit like Cabinteely they saw it was a way of getting their underage teams into the LoI academy set up, though they were still a few years away from being launched. Salthill Devon had no real interest in joining LoI, as far as I can tell, but Mervue were their biggest rivals in Galway in terms of underage teams, so whatever Mervue did Salthill had to copy.

At the time Galway United had a fairly over ambitious CEO, who had no clue about League of Ireland and left the club on very unsteady footing. At the end of 2011 Galway United were relegated after only managing 6 points all season in the Premier Division and in massive debt. As far as I'm aware, had the fans taken over the running of the club in Division 1 we'd have been liable for the debt, so it was chosen not to take over the running of the club for the 2012 season and nobody put in an application (whether the club would even have been granted a license is another question).

During their time in League of Ireland, Mervue continued to play their matches in Fahy's Field , however for the 2012 season Salthill Devon rebranded as 'SD Galway', changed their colours to maroon and moved their games from Drom to Terryland Park - a clear attempt to take over the Galway United place in the league.

This failed absolutely miserably, one "derby" match had fewer than 90 paying fans and by the end of the season they'd returned to play out of Drom again.

The worry I have with a pyramid system, and in general I do support it, is that we've had the likes Athlone, Drogheda, Limerick/Treaty, Cobh, Galway United, Wexford, Waterford, Finn Harps etc. all being absolutely useless at some stage over the last 10/15 years. A pyramid system is likely to see clubs such as St Mochta's, Crumlin and Rockmount be the best and the ones eligible for promotion, so there would be the danger of the league becoming even more Dublin-centric.

Eventually through some sort of deal struck Galway United returned but how else was the club supposed to come back?

Would it help Treaty United if Fairview Rangers got promoted to League of Ireland level or would it push them the way of so many other Limerick clubs? Would Fairview Rangers attract any sort of support in Limerick?

EalingGreen may not like it but in an AIL there isn't a requirement for any club to magic a fanbase out of thin air - these clubs already exist!

[pineapple stu]

The worry I have with a pyramid system, and in general I do support it, is that we've had the likes Athlone, Drogheda, Limerick/Treaty, Cobh, Galway United, Wexford, Waterford, Finn Harps etc. all being absolutely useless at some stage over the last 10/15 years. A pyramid system is likely to see clubs such as St Mochta's, Crumlin and Rockmount be the best and the ones eligible for promotion, so there would be the danger of the league becoming even more Dublin-centric.
Would those teams be able to support an LoI side? Do they have the facilities required (nominally at least...) by licensing? Cost and facilities are a big step up from LSL as far as I'm aware, and I don't know if any of them have any real sort of supporter base?

I'd rather a strong Dublin team in the First Division than a useless country side though, and there's been plenty of those down the years.

There's a feature in this month's When Saturday Comes on East Stirling - the first side relegated out of the Scottish Leagues after more than 100 years in the leagues. It's something the Scottish league clubs had been trying to block, and indeed still are trying to block, which is why there's no automatic promotion/relegation from Highland/Lowland league to the fourth tier. But rather than being downbeat, the article starts "Having been the first club to be relegated from Scottish League Two, East Stirlingshire are still enjoying life in the Lowland league", and a director talks about using the opportunity to rebuild and come back stronger. If a crap Athlone (say) were relegated and replaced by another Dublin team, is it really an issue? Even if it allows Athlone regroup, and pushes the Dublin team (and indeed, teams from outside Dublin) to push themselves to improve?

[outspoken]

IMO it isnt helped that there are so many problems to solve in football in Ireland that the CEO lives in England.
He was supposed to move over then covid happened and his relocation money is being spent on ocasional flights and hotels instead , meanwhile Zoom is good enough supposedly.
We need root and branch reform meaning loads of small leagues folded into each other , blazers out players in.
Junior football played on same schedule as LOI but with a month off in summer instead of two weeks...
Making that happen will need numerous meetings and a strong arm operating on the ground and traveling around Ireland.......
What we have now wont deliver, not the guys fault himself its the FAI board who allowed this happen

It's not being talked about enough either, Roy Barrett called it a non issue when pressed about it at the start and everyone seems to have just said ah thats grand so. Still no sponsor, promised 3rd tier miles away, no tv deal, no new league sponsor, what are they actually doing monday to Friday in the FAI?

[JC_GUFC]

Would those teams be able to support an LoI side? Do they have the facilities required (nominally at least...) by licensing? Cost and facilities are a big step up from LSL as far as I'm aware, and I don't know if any of them have any real sort of supporter base?



But that's kind of my point - no, I wouldn't think so - but they're the best non-league teams at the moment so would be the first in line for promotion in a pyramid system, which is kind of why the Kerry FC approach does also make a bit of sense, even if on the pitch they're not as competitive as others would be.




I'd rather a strong Dublin team in the First Division than a useless country side though, and there's been plenty of those down the years.

There's a feature in this month's When Saturday Comes on East Stirling - the first side relegated out of the Scottish Leagues after more than 100 years in the leagues. It's something the Scottish league clubs had been trying to block, and indeed still are trying to block, which is why there's no automatic promotion/relegation from Highland/Lowland league to the fourth tier. But rather than being downbeat, the article starts "Having been the first club to be relegated from Scottish League Two, East Stirlingshire are still enjoying life in the Lowland league", and a director talks about using the opportunity to rebuild and come back stronger. If a crap Athlone (say) were relegated and replaced by another Dublin team, is it really an issue? Even if it allows Athlone regroup, and pushes the Dublin team (and indeed, teams from outside Dublin) to push themselves to improve?

Well it does become an issue if you end up losing more and more teams. What if Athlone Town don't get organised at all? Probably the biggest issue for the league as a national league is swathes of the country with no team to support.

[JC_GUFC]

It's not being talked about enough either, Roy Barrett called it a non issue when pressed about it at the start and everyone seems to have just said ah thats grand so. Still no sponsor, promised 3rd tier miles away, no tv deal, no new league sponsor, what are they actually doing monday to Friday in the FAI?

Why do you think it's an issue? How many people actually work in the FAI offices on daily basis?

With all those questions you don't seem to realise that the FAI is massively in debt and is also looked upon very negatively at the moment because of the former goings-on. Things are changing but the FAI did turn down one sponsorship offer because it was from a bookmaker. I guess there's no-one meeting what they value the sponsorship package at so maybe you think they should take a below-par offer just so they can have something.

When was there ever a TV deal? You've heard RTE's head of sport before saying there's no interest - at least now Virgin Media seem to be interested in showing some games so now there is some value and it can be revisited next year.

International matches are now pretty much all being sold out - support for the league is at its highest in about 60 years - so there's a lot going right. It would be great if all the issues you've raised could be fixed overnight but they simply can't.

[EatYerGreens]

Yep, but my point is that given they're so uncompetitive, crowds will surely dwindle like at Cabo.

Again showing the folly of just making up a club and dumping them into the First Division. Far better for a side to be promoted into it; they should be far more likely to be competitive and can build on their momentum

This presumes that an established club joining the LOI will either be relatively successful fairly quickly, or somehow defy the normal rules of sport and retain a viable level of support if and when they're doing badly. Neither of those worked for established clubs like St James's Gate, St Francis, Mervue or Salthill. And Cabinteely WERE an estabished club, but it didn't work for them either. Clubs that perform badly will suffer poor support levels. Doubly so when they haven't had the chance to develop inter-generational support as a senior club yet.

[pineapple stu]

But that's kind of my point - no, I wouldn't think so - but they're the best non-league teams at the moment so would be the first in line for promotion in a pyramid system, which is kind of why the Kerry FC approach does also make a bit of sense, even if on the pitch they're not as competitive as others would be.
Yeah, the non-league side of things does seem woefully underdeveloped, which really doesn't help. But if they don't have, say, a proper ground to play in with minimum capacity, etc, then they're not first in line. (I presume - I don't know what their grounds are like but I'm presuming they're fence-around-the-pitch sort of stuff) Clubs wanting promotion would have to put the effort in off the pitch and earn promotion on the pitch. That's a good mix to encourage.


Well it does become an issue if you end up losing more and more teams. What if Athlone Town don't get organised at all? Probably the biggest issue for the league as a national league is swathes of the country with no team to support.
True - but the general picture seems to be that a proper pyramid helps teams re-organise better than the current position we have now. Monaghan, Kildare, Kilkenny, etc, have all just gone. They're nowhere, because they had nowhere to go to. Anything's better than that - and that's why I quoted the East Stirling director talking about his club's experience of being relegated to non-league.

[EatYerGreens]

Are you going to grow crowds and expand reach with a Kerry side as bad as they currently are? Would they not have been better proving themselves first, building momentum, improving facilities, having a bit of success, etc?

As a general plan, I think that's far more likely to succeed than the way things have currently happened.

I think you're fixating on Kerry here. The reality is that the only way for a club to prove that it can hack it at a particular level is for it to be at that particular level. How often do we see LOI clubs do well in the First Division one season, and then bomb when in the PD the next ? It's fairly common (Bray made a habit of yo-yoing up and down). So it clearly doesn't follow that just because you can do well at a lower level means that you will automatically do well at the level above. UCD have bene awful so far in the PD, but could well wi the FD next year and be back again wthin 12mths. All that would tell us is that the club is too good for the second tier and not good enough for the first.

The pyramid argument makes sense withoiut having to grasp at straws like this. I also think it's fairly disingenuous to be writing off Kerry FC less than 3 months into their senior existence.

[EatYerGreens]

For the record, I don't think you can blame Kerry at all for wanting to step up in the circumstances. I think the fault here lies more with the daft system we have for electing senior clubs, one which is pretty much unique throughout Europe. I want to see Kerry do well (having lived there a few years), but I think the way ye've come into the league is a hindrance to that unfortunately.

This is where the ideal comes up aganst the reality.

It's all very well to lambast the FAI for not having a pyramid. How do you propose they achieve that in the face of misaligned seasons, clubs and officials who appear to have little or no interest in changing that, and an organisational structure in which the LOI is a minority voice ? If I recall correctly, when I suggested that the FAI play hard ball on ths yourself and EaligGreen refused to accept that. So how will the theory of a pyramid be turned into the reality of one, given the inherent structural blockages against it ?

[EatYerGreens]

Surely the point is that if a town like Galway isn't capable of supporting two, never mind three, Senior clubs, then it should not be permitted to? That is, the weakest one or two should be replaced.

The real problem lying not with Galway itself, as in the fact that the FAI doesn't have any suitable replacements lined up, essentially because they lack any mechanism to produce more Senior-level clubs. Which for a wealthy country with a 5 million population which has long been very interested in football etc should ordinarily be puzzling.

We've been through this before. It's only puzzling to people who don't understand Irish football. The reality is that joining the LOI is a) Financial suicide, given how low the participation and prize money is and how high the costs of travel, fnes, putting together a competitive team to be viable etc are, and b) A huge distraction from the primary job of junior and intermediate clubs - which is to provide junior and intermediate football. What's puzzling is that ANY club would weigh up the current costs and benefits of joining the LOI and think it's a good idea. Which unsurprisingly so very few actually do.


Except that to this outsider, it's not puzzling at all. That is, the FAI/LOI seem somehow incapable of adopting, or unwilling to adopt, the method that just about every other comparable country does when seeking to expand its domestic club game i.e. a pyramid system.

The reason clubs don't want to join the LOI currently is that it's too costly, risky and distracting for them. So how will introducing a pyramid magically resolve those issues ? Bar providing a clearer route to drop down again if it doesn't work out (though that would be only one of a number of concerns they face), it won;t. The way to get more clubs interested in stepping up to the LOI will be to ensure the prize money is such that it becomes more attractive, viable and less costly to take the step up. That could happen either with or without a pyramid. If you introduce a pyramid WITHOUT addressing the various reaosns why clubs currently don't want to join the LOI, you'll just have clubs declining promotion and weaker teams taking their place or relegated sides staying up - all of which would make a mockery of the pyramid system.


Meaning that if ambitious Junior/Intermediate clubs aren't getting any lead or encouragement from the FAI and LOI etc, then they will look to grow in other ways. Which brings us back eg to Mullingar Athletic, who look to have settled on the Community route for growth, rather than the Senior route.

This correctly identifies a problem, but assigns the wrong reason for it. As explained above.


Now what was someone saying about an AIL?

Completely irrelevant to the issue of prize and participation money in the LOI.

[EatYerGreens]

IMO it isnt helped that there are so many problems to solve in football in Ireland that the CEO lives in England.
He was supposed to move over then covid happened and his relocation money is being spent on ocasional flights and hotels instead , meanwhile Zoom is good enough supposedly.
We need root and branch reform meaning loads of small leagues folded into each other , blazers out players in.
Junior football played on same schedule as LOI but with a month off in summer instead of two weeks...
Making that happen will need numerous meetings and a strong arm operating on the ground and traveling around Ireland.......
What we have now wont deliver, not the guys fault himself its the FAI board who allowed this happen

This is what is needed. The notion that a pyramid system can be somehow installed at the moment and will solve all Irish football's problems is utter fantasy.

[EatYerGreens]

Would those teams be able to support an LoI side? Do they have the facilities required (nominally at least...) by licensing? Cost and facilities are a big step up from LSL as far as I'm aware, and I don't know if any of them have any real sort of supporter base?

I'd rather a strong Dublin team in the First Division than a useless country side though, and there's been plenty of those down the years.

There's a feature in this month's When Saturday Comes on East Stirling - the first side relegated out of the Scottish Leagues after more than 100 years in the leagues. It's something the Scottish league clubs had been trying to block, and indeed still are trying to block, which is why there's no automatic promotion/relegation from Highland/Lowland league to the fourth tier. But rather than being downbeat, the article starts "Having been the first club to be relegated from Scottish League Two, East Stirlingshire are still enjoying life in the Lowland league", and a director talks about using the opportunity to rebuild and come back stronger. If a crap Athlone (say) were relegated and replaced by another Dublin team, is it really an issue? Even if it allows Athlone regroup, and pushes the Dublin team (and indeed, teams from outside Dublin) to push themselves to improve?

But this assumes that a crap Athlone would sort themseves out and come back again stronger. What if they didn't ? Surely a club in trouble having their troubles multipled following the shock of relegation (with all the reduction in attendances, sponsorship, player appeal etc that would entail) would be more likely to go bad than turn out well.

I used to love the fact that Berwick Rangers were an English club playing in the Scottish League. But they got relegated to the Lowland League in 2019, and show little sign of making a return anytime soon. For every East Stirling (who are still not back at a higher level btw) there is at least one Berwck. Not all phoenixes rise from the ashes. The LOI's oldest club - Athlone - going out of the senior game and being replaced by yet another small Dublin club would be a tragedy IMO.

I support a pyramid structure in football btw but I think there is a naivety and 'rose-tinted-glasses' to how you view it in the context of Irish football.

[legendz]

Yep, but my point is that given they're so uncompetitive, crowds will surely dwindle like at Cabo.
After their first win?
Just because you are struggling with the concept of a young team, not everyone will have that difficulty.
Kerry have not joined the league like they have invented football. Kerry have entered the league with a respect for the league and an acknowledgement it is going to be difficult. When Kerry joined the youth leagues, it was also a difficult step up.


Again showing the folly of just making up a club and dumping them into the First Division. Far better for a side to be promoted into it; they should be far more likely to be competitive and can build on their momentum
Kerry aren't exactly a made up club. Kerry built up through the youth leagues. Kerry FC is a natural evolution. Quite common in the history of clubs to have an evolution. Joining the third tier would have been the natural progression.
Agreed about clubs being promoted to the First Division. It is the way forward. If Kildare and Carlow Kilkenny join a third tier, it should afford them the opportunity to build on and off the park, and earn a First Division licence.
Mounthawk Park is very fortunate to be allowed host First Division games. Ideally as part of the licencing process, Kildare and Carlow Kilkenny can achieve First Division licences with grounds that are ready for the step up.

[sadloserkid]

If Athlone (or Treaty or anybody else) get relegated to a third tier and can't reorganise themselves sufficiently to rebound then, honestly, fuk them. Clubs being allowed to meander along aimlessly for years doesn't do the league any favours.

[outspoken]

Why do you think it's an issue? How many people actually work in the FAI offices on daily basis?

With all those questions you don't seem to realise that the FAI is massively in debt and is also looked upon very negatively at the moment because of the former goings-on. Things are changing but the FAI did turn down one sponsorship offer because it was from a bookmaker. I guess there's no-one meeting what they value the sponsorship package at so maybe you think they should take a below-par offer just so they can have something.

When was there ever a TV deal? You've heard RTE's head of sport before saying there's no interest - at least now Virgin Media seem to be interested in showing some games so now there is some value and it can be revisited next year.

International matches are now pretty much all being sold out - support for the league is at its highest in about 60 years - so there's a lot going right. It would be great if all the issues you've raised could be fixed overnight but they simply can't.

The FAI have nothing to do with the crowds, you know that as well as I do. The FAI needed a huge change in his things are done, a lad calling in via zoom or flying in every so often isn't going to achieve that. Staff morale reportedly still very poor within the FAI

[EalingGreen]

The reality is that joining the LOI is a) Financial suicide, given how low the participation and prize money is and how high the costs of travel, fnes, putting together a competitive team to be viable etc
All of those apply eg in the IL bar the travelling costs, which is outweighed by the 20% VAT levied on gate money.
Meanwhile, NI has a population of 2m versus ROI's 5m, and a poorer one at that, plus a political situation whereby certain football fans would never support certain sides even if they lived two doors up from the stadium etc.
Yet still the IL manages to sustain 24 Senior teams in the top two tiers (and that's even without DCFC from our second city), another 12 in the Premier Intermediate League, plus another 100+ Intermediate clubs in four tiers of eight divisions, all with regular Promotion & Relegation in between:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system

While all the time we experience far fewer clubs going into Examinership/Administration with bad debts to reappear next season in a different guise, or alternatively to disappear altogether. While at the same time we are managing to expand the geographical spread of Intermediate and Senior clubs throughout NI by degrees.


[The reality is that joining the LOI is] b) A huge distraction from the primary job of junior and intermediate clubs - which is to provide junior and intermediate football."The primary job"?

Do you not want your club to be the best it can? That is, by producing, improving and signing the best players it can? Who get to train in the best possible facilities, and play in a stadium which has the best possible facilities to attract the maximum fan support? While the club optimises its corporate/sponsorship/commercial/media revenues etc behind the scenes? All of which is designed to see the team reaching the highest possible level?

Which need not be contradicted by the likes of Mullingar Athletic maximising their community set-up - on the contrary, having a solid base in your local community can compliment all the other stuff.


The reason clubs don't want to join the LOI currently is that it's too costly, risky and distracting for them. So how will introducing a pyramid magically resolve those issues ?
There's nothing "magical" about a pyramid, nor is it ever going to be quick to construct either - quite the contrary.

But it's precisely because there's no magic required that just about every other UEFA country, including all the comparable ones, are managing to construct them.

For it doesn't even take any great vision, since the model is already there, nor need it take a huge amount of money, considering how little the FA's eg in Wales, Iceland, Estonia, NI or Albania have to devote to it.

Rather it takes determination, plannning, patience and time. Oh and the basic appreciation that you build a pyramid from the bottom up, not from the top down.


Bar providing a clearer route to drop down again if it doesn't work out (though that would be only one of a number of concerns they face), it won;t.The safety net is not the only attrbute of a pyramid, but it is still a vital one, when added to all the others.


The way to get more clubs interested in stepping up to the LOI will be to ensure the prize money is such that it becomes more attractive, viable and less costly to take the step up... ... Completely irrelevant to the issue of prize and participation money in the LOI.You appear to cling to the low prize/participation money in the LOI as being the major disincentive preventing otherwise aspiring clubs from moving up.

How much prize money do you imagine there is in the NI or Welsh leagues, for instance?

[EatYerGreens]

@EalingGreen - The fundamental difference between football north and south is that there is feck all money in the Irish League. That is why someone like Loughall in a small village can get into the top tier. If they were an LOI First Division club they'd stand zero chance of promotion. It's easy to 'sustain' loads of clubs when it costs very little money to do so (aided in that, of course, by very little travel being involved). There is no financial barrier to entry to stepping up in the IL compared to what there is in the LOI - where the clubs who finish bottom of the First Division will actually lose money over all just form the FAI alone. Just look at the attendances in the LOI First Division this year - with Galway having a number of 4,000+ gates this year. Half the teams in the LOI FD have attendnaces which would be considered bloody good in the Irish League top tier., never mind second Whilst the IL second tier - a direct comparator league for the LOI FD - is largely played in small stadiums in front of basically tumbleweed.

So that's the fundamental difference. It is easy to keep clubs going in a league where the financial stakes are increadibly low. Give it another 5-10 yrs when European money starts to really distort things in the IL and you get more sugar daddy owners like at Larne and Glentoran, and then you'll see the financial stakes rising and life becoming harder for everyone else. Until then, the financial jeopardy of being part of the LOI is nothing like the low-cost Irish League second tier. Likewise in Welsh football, where attendnaces and money are even more sparse than across the IL pyramid. You like to kid yourself that the IL is well run and 'stable'. In reality it's just cheap to run. And if clubs aren't spendng much, because they don't need to to remain competitive, then they're not going to get into financial trouble. It's like comparing the stakes in a game of snap to those on a roulette table.

[nigel-harps1954]

The simple solution is to have a pyramid system, but you cannot get promoted beyond a third tier unless you have facilities and club structures in order to some set specific standard.

For what it's worth, there are suggestions out there that the third tier might actually happen next year. Local rumours here that the Ulster Senior League is folding in the next week and one or two of the teams are applying to the new third tier.

[EalingGreen]

@EatYerGreens

Think of it like this. You want to speak to someone, but his office is on the fourth floor, the lifts are out-of-order and the stairs are blocked. Meaning that the only way of getting up there is via a rope ladder slung from a window on the fourth. Unfortunately the rope ladder doesn't quite reach all the way down to the pavement, it stops a few feet short, meaning you have to give it your best leap, hope to grab on the end and haul yourself up. And even if you can grab hold, you still need the energy to haul yourself up four levels and climb in the window. The risk of falling back and splatting on the pavement at any stage is so great that the vast majority won't even try, never mind succeed.

Now imagine someone starts building steps outside, which will reach up to the window. It won't be quick or easy, not everyone will have the stamina to climb the steps, some won't even try. And even for those who do, many won't quite make it that far, or will lack the extra energy to climb in through the window when they do. Worse still, once inside, you might not be allowed to stay for long and so will have to leave again. But at least the climb back down again won't destroy you.

I assume you see where I'm going with this - the LOI has the rope ladder, whereas the IL is building the steps (pyramid).

As for the financial difference between the two, then while the LOI office is on the fourth floor, the IL is still on the third, I get that. But it also means the steps to the third floor are fewer and shallower, making the climb more manageable. Now in another decade or so, the IL may well see a handful of f-t clubs with big money dominate more than ever i.e. the IL office will now move to the fourth floor. Which of course makes the climb up from the pavement and in through the window that much longer, while it will also be harder to remain inside if/when you finally make it.

But it still won't be impossible, for in the meantime the league will have added extra steps, narrow and steep though they may be.

So start building steps now, oh and from the ground up, not from the fourth floor down!

[pineapple stu]

The simple solution is to have a pyramid system, but you cannot get promoted beyond a third tier unless you have facilities and club structures in order to some set specific standard.
Exactly.

Some sort of licensing system...

[EalingGreen]

The simple solution is to have a pyramid system, but you cannot get promoted beyond a third tier unless you have facilities and club structures in order to some set specific standard.
Indeed.

But not just from the third tier.

Assume your pyramid is organised as follows. 1. You organise the Junior clubs in Local, roughly equal/competitive leagues. 2. The best of these, both on and off the pitch, qualify for promotion to Intermediate level, whose clubs are organised Regionally, again in roughly equal/competitive leagues. 3. Finally, the best of the Intermediate clubs may gain promotion to Senior level, whether this latter comprises two or three divisions etc.

Obviously this will take years to implement - the IFA/IL started in 2011/12 (I think) and it's by no means finished yet, nor will it ever be, seeing as how things change all the time*. But during that time, you require all aspiring clubs at all levels to make improvements off the pitch, to keep pace with whatever progress they're making on it, by a combination of carrot (funding) and stick (sanctions, promotions denied etc).


* - The most recent version of the IFA's upgraded facilities requirements came in 2019, though these were then scuppered by Covid, meaning implementation is behind schedule. Anyhow, for anyone nerdy enough to scroll through it, it's surprisingly detailed: https://www.irishfa.com/media/41546/ifa-joint-ground-criteria-nov-2019.pdf


Local rumours here that the Ulster Senior League is folding in the next weekCuriously, the NI equivalent in the North West, one of 4 x Intermediate leagues in the fourth tier, is also struggling badly, down to seven teams, when it really should have ten or even twelve:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Intermediate_League

[EatYerGreens]

The simple solution is to have a pyramid system, but you cannot get promoted beyond a third tier unless you have facilities and club structures in order to some set specific standard.

For what it's worth, there are suggestions out there that the third tier might actually happen next year. Local rumours here that the Ulster Senior League is folding in the next week and one or two of the teams are applying to the new third tier.

Any word on which teams Nigel? Presumably Cockhill and Bonagee, given how well they've progressed in cups recently?

[EatYerGreens]

@EatYerGreens

Think of it like this. You want to speak to someone, but his office is on the fourth floor, the lifts are out-of-order and the stairs are blocked. Meaning that the only way of getting up there is via a rope ladder slung from a window on the fourth. Unfortunately the rope ladder doesn't quite reach all the way down to the pavement, it stops a few feet short, meaning you have to give it your best leap, hope to grab on the end and haul yourself up. And even if you can grab hold, you still need the energy to haul yourself up four levels and climb in the window. The risk of falling back and splatting on the pavement at any stage is so great that the vast majority won't even try, never mind succeed.

Now imagine someone starts building steps outside, which will reach up to the window. It won't be quick or easy, not everyone will have the stamina to climb the steps, some won't even try. And even for those who do, many won't quite make it that far, or will lack the extra energy to climb in through the window when they do. Worse still, once inside, you might not be allowed to stay for long and so will have to leave again. But at least the climb back down again won't destroy you.

I assume you see where I'm going with this - the LOI has the rope ladder, whereas the IL is building the steps (pyramid).

As for the financial difference between the two, then while the LOI office is on the fourth floor, the IL is still on the third, I get that. But it also means the steps to the third floor are fewer and shallower, making the climb more manageable. Now in another decade or so, the IL may well see a handful of f-t clubs with big money dominate more than ever i.e. the IL office will now move to the fourth floor. Which of course makes the climb up from the pavement and in through the window that much longer, while it will also be harder to remain inside if/when you finally make it.

But it still won't be impossible, for in the meantime the league will have added extra steps, narrow and steep though they may be.

So start building steps now, oh and from the ground up, not from the fourth floor down!

The only difference in this admittedly tortured analogy being that in the LOI the fourth floor is on fire. So it doesn't matter whether there are steps or a leap required to get onto the ladder, it would still be suicide to go up it.

I don't get why you can't see and accept this fundamental difference. The financial barrier to entry and survival is just so much higher in the LOI than it is in the IL. Please accept this, because it is demonstrably true. Which helps explain why a lot of potential clubs just aren't interested. Why the hell would they be when it could kill or seriously injure them financially?

Again - Loughall would get nowhere in the LOI, yet are now in the IL's top tier. From a village of just a couple of hundred people in an area which already has a number of other senior IL clubs. This is Exhibit A for how different the 2 leagues are, which youseem unwilling to acknowledge or accept.

[EatYerGreens]

Curiously, the NI equivalent in the North West, one of 4 x Intermediate leagues in the fourth tier, is also struggling badly, down to seven teams, when it really should have ten or even twelve:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Intermediate_League

Doesn't the North West have its own rather healthy league that is completely separate from the IFA?

EDIT : This is it here = Derry and District League - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry_and_District_League)

[legendz]

The only clubs interested in the League of Ireland are LoI clubs obviously and the additional clubs who have joined the youth leagues. If any progressive Intermediate clubs have LoI ambitions, the youth leagues are the natural starting point. Some people are engaging in fantasy pyramid discussion.

[sadloserkid]

You... you spent literally years here singing loudly about fantasy pyramids (I believe UL made an appearance in some of your longlists), I appreciate you've moved onto the youth leagues as your new silver bullet but it's a bit jarring still to see you bemoaning pyramids nowadays. ?

How does your criteria feel about clubs like Ballymun or St.Francis (or even Irish Sea) who have either expressed an interest or directly applied for a license without entering the youth leagues?

It would be nice to see more clubs at any level of LOI I'll add but given the amount of clubs who have come and gone from the youth leagues over the years (Lifford anyone?) I wouldn't say it is close to likely that all (or any) of the existing crop without senior teams seriously aspire to having one.

[Buller]

I don't get why you can't see and accept this fundamental difference. The financial barrier to entry and survival is just so much higher in the LOI than it is in the IL. Please accept this, because it is demonstrably true. Which helps explain why a lot of potential clubs just aren't interested. Why the hell would they be when it could kill or seriously injure them financially?

Again - Loughall would get nowhere in the LOI, yet are now in the IL's top tier. From a village of just a couple of hundred people in an area which already has a number of other senior IL clubs. This is Exhibit A for how different the 2 leagues are, which youseem unwilling to acknowledge or accept.

Exactly. Costs around €150,000 a year for only the travel & food to run a nationwide League of Ireland first div team. Don't underestimate how big this is a barrier to entry. Loughgall wouldn't be anywhere near this with those crowds and would get into debt pretty quick.

Meanwhile clubs with potential are destroyed by dropping into amateur leagues. Ards? Distillery? Portadown? Replaced by Warrenpoint, Loughgall. No fans and zero potential to grow. It's a bit of a disaster. The amount of damage done has been multiplied.

At least when LOI teams collapsed in the past, they only dropped one division and made it back very quickly. Cork City, Derry City, Shels, Rovers... they didn't disappear into an amateur league through the pyramid. We can't afford to destroy clubs like they do elsewhere. Support them and they come back faster.

[pineapple stu]

At least when LOI teams collapsed in the past, they only dropped one division and made it back very quickly.
Maybe don't collapse so? Do we really want a league system which almost encourages financial malpractice? Look at Waterford - sure we'll go bust, wipe out debts, and start again in the same division. **** the creditors. Is that fair?

As slk has said, if the likes of Portadown can't get their act together to dump no-fan clubs like Loughgall or Warrenpoint out of the IL Premier, that says a hell of a lot about how badly Portadown are run. (The idea that they're "destroyed by dropping into the amateur leagues" needs a large "citation needed" tag)

Why are we so keen to favour badly-run clubs just because they have more of a history than others?

[legendz]

You... you spent literally years here singing loudly about fantasy pyramids (I believe UL made an appearance in some of your longlists), I appreciate you've moved onto the youth leagues as your new silver bullet but it's a bit jarring still to see you bemoaning pyramids nowadays. ?

How does your criteria feel about clubs like Ballymun or St.Francis (or even Irish Sea) who have either expressed an interest or directly applied for a license without entering the youth leagues?

It would be nice to see more clubs at any level of LOI I'll add but given the amount of clubs who have come and gone from the youth leagues over the years (Lifford anyone?) I wouldn't say it is close to likely that all (or any) of the existing crop without senior teams seriously aspire to having one. Scrapping the A Championship was a disappointing decision. It was what it was.
The youth leagues have been a great development and long overdue. If Ballymun, St Francis or Irish Sea are interested in joining, why have they not joined the youth leagues as a clear expression of interest?

[Buller]

Maybe don't collapse so? Do we really want a league system which almost encourages financial malpractice? Look at Waterford - sure we'll go bust, wipe out debts, and start again in the same division. **** the creditors. Is that fair?

As slk has said, if the likes of Portadown can't get their act together to dump no-fan clubs like Loughgall or Warrenpoint out of the IL Premier, that says a hell of a lot about how badly Portadown are run. (The idea that they're "destroyed by dropping into the amateur leagues" needs a large "citation needed" tag)

Why are we so keen to favour badly-run clubs just because they have more of a history than others?

When you're not bankrolled by a University and rely on attendances for primary income, it might be disastrous if you drop to an intermediate or amateur division like in NI, no matter how well run!

[pineapple stu]

Who's bankrolled by a university?

UCD have been relegated to the First Division - which is a big drop - more than once and have been fine. We came from the LSL and the LoI B before that.

[nigel-harps1954]

Any word on which teams Nigel? Presumably Cockhill and Bonagee, given how well they've progressed in cups recently?

Letterkenny Rovers have been mentioned.

[nigel-harps1954]

The only clubs interested in the League of Ireland are LoI clubs obviously and the additional clubs who have joined the youth leagues. If any progressive Intermediate clubs have LoI ambitions, the youth leagues are the natural starting point. Some people are engaging in fantasy pyramid discussion.

This might be your funniest post on here.

[pineapple stu]

Letterkenny Rovers have been mentioned.
Out of interest, how would that work for them?

The USL is disbanding because - there's no teams really? Or cost?

It seems to me going into an LoI third tier (surely there won't be enough interest to regionalise it?) would be a lot more expensive. Is it just that the Donegal league is the only other option for them, and they've a bit more ambition than that?

[nigel-harps1954]

Out of interest, how would that work for them?

The USL is disbanding because - there's no teams really? Or cost?

It seems to me going into an LoI third tier (surely there won't be enough interest to regionalise it?) would be a lot more expensive. Is it just that the Donegal league is the only other option for them, and they've a bit more ambition than that?

There's no secret they've always had an eye on the league. They took part in the old under-21 league back in the mid 2000's as well.
They are well known to be paying their players, have a bit of local business backing, and would probably be best placed to be able to afford to step up.

The problem is, they have a team in the Donegal League already, as well as the USL, and they would absolutely see themselves as too big to drop back that far with their first team, so the next natural step would be this new LOI division.

They have very little in the way of support though and would have to do a lot to get crowds into Leckview Park, which is a very basic ground with a single 200 seater stand, and basic standing room around the pitch, tiny dressing room/clubhouse building, and little else going for them other than a very good location in Letterkenny.

[pineapple stu]

Are they any good?

I know we beat them fairly handy in the FAI Cup a couple of years ago, but always hard to tell with those games because of the difference in seasons.

[EalingGreen]

The only difference in this admittedly tortured analogy being that in the LOI the fourth floor is on fire. So it doesn't matter whether there are steps or a leap required to get onto the ladder, it would still be suicide to go up it.
What do you mean by "on fire"? Were that the case, then everyone inside (PD) would perish. If you mean that the "big" PD clubs are in a different financial league from the rest, then fair enough, but even there, there are significant financial disparities within the PD between clubs like UCD, Harps or Drogs, compared with Shams, Cork, Derry etc
Or how do you explain eg Scotland, where the Two Ugly Sisters suck the life out of the rest, yet a country of 5.5m can still somehow sustain a 42 team/4 division league pyramid, with Highland and Lowland feeder leagues beneath. Cove Rangers anyone?


I don't get why you can't see and accept this fundamental difference. The financial barrier to entry and survival is just so much higher in the LOI than it is in the IL. Please accept this, because it is demonstrably true. Which helps explain why a lot of potential clubs just aren't interested. Why the hell would they be when it could kill or seriously injure them financially?You talk about "the LOI", as though it was one division. But teams coming up from a third tier wouldn't have to go straight into the PD (obv). The best/most sustainable should be able to find their level in the FD, until they grew, in time, to hope to go up another level.


Again - Loughall would get nowhere in the LOI, yet are now in the IL's top tier. From a village of just a couple of hundred people in an area which already has a number of other senior IL clubs. This is Exhibit A for how different the 2 leagues are, which youseem unwilling to acknowledge or accept.Loughgall are an outlier - I doubt they'll last a season or two (max), just like their only previous short stay in the Prem, in the early noughties.
Which is hardly much different eg from Cobh (2008), Athlone (2014) or Wexford (2016) having their own solitary season in the sun.

In any case, I'm not saying that you should eg create a third tier next year or the year after and expect the top club or two to go straight into the FD the year after that - if anything, that is the opposite of what I'm suggesting.

Which is to build from the bottom up, rationalise your Junior clubs/leagues locally, then build up the best of those into a regionalised, Intermediate set-up, with ever more stringent requirements (financial, facilities, infrastructure etc) along the way, if participants are to achieve the appropriate License. So that eventually (10 years?) the best of the Intermediate clubs in a 3rd tier should be able to have a crack at the 2nd tier.

Or do you you have some alternative plan to expand the domestic professional game in ROI?

Or are you saying that a country like ROI can only ever be capable of sustaining a maximum of 17 or 18 Senior professional clubs, with some of those on a p-t basis?

And even then at the cost of occasional member clubs going bust every few years, only to re-emerge in a new wrapper, as though nothing had ever happened?

[joey B]

Are they any good?

I know we beat them fairly handy in the FAI Cup a couple of years ago, but always hard to tell with those games because of the difference in seasons.

They’re not even the best team in their own town,Bonagee are miles better than them….

[nigel-harps1954]

They’re not even the best team in their own town,Bonagee are miles better than them….

Absolutely. And Bonagee probably have a better setup than then, but I'd doubt if they'll make the step up.

[EalingGreen]

Exactly. Costs around €150,000 a year for only the travel & food to run a nationwide League of Ireland first div team. Don't underestimate how big this is a barrier to entry. Loughgall wouldn't be anywhere near this with those crowds and would get into debt pretty quick.How does eg Scotland manage it?

For they've not just settled on their historic footballing history and infrastructure, but have looked to expand beyond their traditional confines eg by incorporating the Highland and Lowland leagues into their existing pyramid, with a further five tiers below them. While the travel/food costs etc, are just as onerous as in ROI.

While as a well-run club, I'd be very surprised if Loughgall allowed themselves to get into unsustainable debt - certainly not in order to stay in the Prem at all costs (literally).


Meanwhile clubs with potential are destroyed by dropping into amateur leagues. Ards? Distillery? Portadown? Replaced by Warrenpoint, Loughgall. No fans and zero potential to grow. It's a bit of a disaster. The amount of damage done has been multiplied."Destroyed"? "Amateur leagues"? What are you talking about?

Ports and Ards have been bouncing between the Championship and Prem for a few years now, with Distillery comfortable enough in the PIL (3rd tier). They may be modest enough outifts, but with proper management Ports should easily be able to survive, even thrive, in the top tier. While Ards finally look like securing a new ground after a quarter century of homelessness, which could set them up for a return to their former status. All three clubs are part-time professional.

As for Warrenpoint or Loughgall, so what if they are/were never going to be top tier beyond the short term? So long as they're not getting hammered every week in the top flight, their example gives hope to other small or struggling clubs. In which regard, Warrenpoint replaced Newry for a period, after the latter went bust. However, since Newry's fans retained control of the Showgrounds, and NI has a pyramid, those fans were able to resurrect a phoenix club, come back in the fifth tier, and work their way back to the top flight within a few years, where in a neat piece of symmetry, they replaced Warrenpoint.

Or would you say that the likes of Newry, modest though they are, don't deserve their place in the top flight either?


At least when LOI teams collapsed in the past, they only dropped one division and made it back very quickly. Cork City, Derry City, Shels, Rovers... they didn't disappear into an amateur league through the pyramid. We can't afford to destroy clubs like they do elsewhere. Support them and they come back faster.And that's a recommendation for the league, is it?

Have you ever heard of the concept of "Moral hazard" (And no, his brother wasn't on the bench for Real Madrid last night). If clubs know they can blow their budget in a dash for silverware, and then suffer no real penalty if/when it all goes wrong, then that's exactly what some (many?) of them are going to do.

Maybe you feel their rather greater attrition rate somehow makes the LOI more attractive than the IL, but as I see it, this set-up doesn't just "reward" financial mismanagement amongst the existing clubs, it further closes down any places for aspiring replacement clubs.

And I repeat, the third tier of the IL pyramid is p-t professional. While there is also a bit of money some of the lower tiers, even if it is hardly more than generous petrol expenses. Either way, it isn't "amateur".

[Buller]

How does eg Scotland manage it?
They're not just as onerous! Republic of Ireland is far more spaced out between population centers. The majority of Scotlands 5.4m population is highly concentrated in the lowlands an 1hr to 1.5hr drive between Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee.

Scotland population distribution:
Scotland Population Distribution (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/361413938830778974/)

ROI population distribution:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/2vatm7/population_density_of_ireland_600x880/



Ports and Ards have been bouncing between the Championship and Prem for a few years now, with Distillery comfortable enough in the PIL (3rd tier). They may be modest enough outifts, but with proper management Ports should easily be able to survive, even thrive, in the top tier. While Ards finally look like securing a new ground after a quarter century of homelessness, which could set them up for a return to their former status. All three clubs are part-time professional.

Distillery are comfortable enough playing amateur football in part due to a pyramid? Fantastic but no thanks!

I think its disastrous that you've flooded your top 2 leagues with amateur sides with nearly no potential for growth - pushing out well established clubs with real fanbases.




Have you ever heard of the concept of "Moral hazard" (And no, his brother wasn't on the bench for Real Madrid last night). If clubs know they can blow their budget in a dash for silverware, and then suffer no real penalty if/when it all goes wrong, then that's exactly what some (many?) of them are going to do.

Maybe you feel their rather greater attrition rate somehow makes the LOI more attractive than the IL, but as I see it, this set-up doesn't just "reward" financial mismanagement amongst the existing clubs, it further closes down any places for aspiring replacement clubs.

And I repeat, the third tier of the IL pyramid is p-t professional. While there is also a bit of money some of the lower tiers, even if it is hardly more than generous petrol expenses. Either way, it isn't "amateur".

Call a spade a spade, you're describing amatuer football. In that case the LSL is p-t professional too.

I think clubs always try to avoid going bankrupt as a rule of thumb - don't think a pyramid features too much in playing budget meetings!!

It's bit naive to give advice on a pyramid system that has arguably not had much benefit up north, especially in an environment so conducive too it: small distances, concentrated clubs in Antrim, where travel expensive are virtually nil. If ROI was only Leinster - it'd be very easy to implement.

Crowds are booming here without a pyramid.

[culloty82]

The simple solution is to have a pyramid system, but you cannot get promoted beyond a third tier unless you have facilities and club structures in order to some set specific standard.

For what it's worth, there are suggestions out there that the third tier might actually happen next year. Local rumours here that the Ulster Senior League is folding in the next week and one or two of the teams are applying to the new third tier.

Wales is probably the most instructive template that the FAI could follow - the FAW administers the top three tiers, with the Cymru Premier the only centralised league, that devolves to the second-level Cymru North and South, and these in turn trickle down to four Ardal Leagues (NW, NE, SW, SE). These all have fixed infrastructural and licensing criteria, with leave to appeal by all unsuccessful clubs. Finally, there are fourth-level district leagues that correspond to our county level:

https://www.faw.cymru/en/news/mens-club-licensing-faw-tier-3-first-instance-body-decisions/?back=/en/news/&pos=8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardal_Leagues

Like here, internal politicking delayed the process for some time, but the key difference is that all the leagues followed the same seasonal calendar.

[EalingGreen]

They're not just as onerous! Republic of Ireland is far more spaced out between population centers. The majority of Scotlands 5.4m population is highly concentrated in the lowlands an 1hr to 1.5hr drive between Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee.Population distribution is one thing, club distribution is another. And the SFL has 42 members, as opposed to the LOI's 20, leading to the following travelling:
SPL - Dingwall to Kilmarnock: 200 miles;
Championship - Inverness to Ayr: 210 miles;
League One - Peterhead to Dumfries: 245 miles;
League Two - Elgin to Stranraer: 270 miles.

Even the regionalised 5th tier Highland and Lowland leagues require significant travel eg Wick to Brechin = 215 miles, or Castle Douglas to Cowdenbeath = 130 miles.


Distillery are comfortable enough playing amateur football in part due to a pyramid? Fantastic but no thanks!

I think its disastrous that you've flooded your top 2 leagues with amateur sides with nearly no potential for growth - pushing out well established clubs with real fanbases.

Call a spade a spade, you're describing amatuer football.

Noun: Amateur:

1. a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid rather than a professional basis.

As for "flooding our top 2 leagues with amateur sides with nearly no potential for growth... ... [and] pushing out well established clubs", dear oh dear. I think you need to educate yourself on basic concepts like Promotion & Relegation. I know there's not a great deal of it to be seen in the LOI, but hey, even the Yanks get it:
https://worldsoccertalk.com/news/what-is-promotion-and-relegation-20230205-WST-417286.html

P.S. Afaik, there are only two Amateur teams in the whole of the LOI (20 clubs) and the IL (24 clubs), Kerry FC and UCD. (Am open to correction on those two)


I think clubs always try to avoid going bankrupt as a rule of thumb - don't think a pyramid features too much in playing budget meetings!!

It's bit naive to give advice on a pyramid system that has arguably not had much benefit up north, especially in an environment so conducive too it: small distances, concentrated clubs in Antrim, where travel expensive are virtually nil. If ROI was only Leinster - it'd be very easy to implement. Er, there have been rather more Examinerships and Bankruptcies in the LOI than in the IL, despite the latter having more clubs, and (much) greater movement between the different levels*. As far as I can remember, the only one in recent years was Newry City, where a creditor pulled the plug on them and they went under. Fortunately, however, he couldn't get his hands on the Showgrounds, the fans took over, formed a phoenix club and started again in the fifth tier. And a few years later, they're back in the Premiership!
Another notable example was Bangor FC, a long-established Senior club. They realised they were having trouble competing financially, but instead of fighting the inevitable, they voluntarily withdrew from the top tier (after fulfilling their fixtures btw) and dropped down to Intermediate football until they got their finances sorted out. And this season they've romped to the PIL title (3rd tier, Intermediate), and are hoping to go all the way to the Premiership in a redeveloped stadium.
Neither would have been possible had we not had a pyramid, instead two long-established Senior clubs would have disappeared.

As for "not much benefit up North etc", that's utter rot! Ask anyone in NI football and they'll all agree that the pyramid has been beneficial, not least in expanding Senior football to new areas outwith it's Belfast/Co.Antrim heartland, from Institute (Derry) to Warrenpoint, Castlederg to Loughgall and Ballinamallard to Lisburn etc.


* - It's that pyramid thing again


Crowds are booming here without a pyramid.How much bigger would they be if you managed to expand outside the same bare handful of traditional centres?

To take a comparison, in the top flight in NI, crowds have all but doubled in the last decade. And from 2021/22 to the season just ended, crowds are up by another 10%. Specifically, the top 10 teams are averaging 1,776. Not much compared with the crowds currently watching the LOI, you might say, until you consider this. The population of the ROI is 2.5 times that of NI, meaning that the same turnout down South would generate average PD crowds of 4,440 - you're still somewhat short*. None of which is to disparage LOI crowds and growth etc, I'm happy to acknowledge that they're highly impressive.

But I have no doubt whatever that the IL's crowds would be a lot lower had we not introduced the pyramid and were instead continuously watching the same old teams, in the same old locations, season after season after season.

* - And that's with the benefit of Derry City's crowds, which give a great boost from across the border to the LOI totals.

[EalingGreen]

Wales is probably the most instructive template that the FAI could follow - the FAW administers the top three tiers, with the Cymru Premier the only centralised league, that devolves to the second-level Cymru North and South, and these in turn trickle down to four Ardal Leagues (NW, NE, SW, SE). These all have fixed infrastructural and licensing criteria, with leave to appeal by all unsuccessful clubs. Finally, there are fourth-level district leagues that correspond to our county level:

https://www.faw.cymru/en/news/mens-club-licensing-faw-tier-3-first-instance-body-decisions/?back=/en/news/&pos=8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardal_Leagues

Like here, internal politicking delayed the process for some time, but the key difference is that all the leagues followed the same seasonal calendar.Well said, incl the bit about the seasonal calendar.

[culloty82]

UCD are semi-pro, AFAIK, but Treaty are amateur, along with Kerry (and even Kerry ultimately plan to go part-time in future seasons when they get a better understanding of the returns or otherwise from this term).

[pineapple stu]

Distillery are comfortable enough playing amateur football in part due to a pyramid? Fantastic but no thanks!

I think its disastrous that you've flooded your top 2 leagues with amateur sides with nearly no potential for growth - pushing out well established clubs with real fanbases.
I still don't get the concern here to be honest.

Nobody's pushed out well-established clubs except themselves by being badly-run. Portadown seem to be permanently in crisis for example. Ards sold their ground almost 30 years ago and have been homeless ever since. There's nothing stopping Distillery getting out of the division they're in (third tier), but they haven't come close to managing it in seven years.

I don't understand why you're so keen to protect such badly-run clubs?

You say "Crowds are booming here without a pyramid" but the point is that we've been running out of clubs for a while now, to the extent that we've twice had to rely on Rovers to field a second team just to make up the numbers in the First Division. Literally every club bar Bray (and Kerry) to have joined the First Division since it started has gone bust. Some have disappeared altogether, others have used the opportunity to wipe off a huge amount of debt, knowing there's effectively no punishment. That's a ridiculous state of affairs.

[JC_GUFC]

I'm not sure why Distillery have cropped up in this coversation - maybe Ealing Green will correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like they've been irrelevant since they left Belfast.

They parachuted into a greyhound stadium on the outskirts of Lisburn and it's been a bit of a disaster. It seems there's a new club in Lisburn these days - Ballymacash Rangers - who could be in the Championship in a couple of season.

I know there were certain reasons for it but a couple of years ago I think Institute were playing in a public park in the Championship before they moved to Brandywell.

The question is probably what do we want to achieve by introducing a third tier and/or pyramid structure. It's far from ideal having basket case clubs in the league with no threat of relegation but at the same time it has given Kerry the opportunity of establishing themselves in the league without the pressure of needing to get points on the board. If they had to immediately bring in experienced League of Ireland journeymen from Cork/Limerick/Galway/Dublin I have no doubt the crowds would have fallen away by now.

For me, what the league needs, is to have a wider appeal around the country, so that's why I'd be in favour of the likes of CK United, Monaghan, Mayo who have established roots with academies in place - the introduction of academies I think is one of the reasons in the surge in attendances at matches - there are so many people with a connection through a friend/relative/neighbour being a player at some level - so a connection is then made to the first team.

Tipperary is another obvious area but would a club like St Michael's be sustainable at LoI level? Would anyone outside Tipp Town go to support them? Does that restrict the potential of the club that they've always been rivals with Clonmel Town for example?

Ultimately, as someone has mentioned, at the moment it would be financial suicide for St Michael's to join the LoI so until that changes we're just going to be left with the status quo and maybe a few jumped up academies and a couple more University sides to emulate UCD, though I would prefer if existing clubs established those links with universities as UCD have shown there isn't really much in the way of support for those teams, which I think is kind of important for the image of the league.