Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[Shearer]

maybe it's good that some kids in Limerick have had underage LOI experience with this cursed entity, but otherwise the fact it hasn't been put down by now is wild to me.
This was true at first (post Limerick leaving the league) with some of their players moving on to Treaty and playing senior, but they've done worse and worse with each year and now their two teams have been hammered each and every week unfortunately.

Underage isn't all about winning but it's not about losing either.

[EatYerGreens]

Half Joke half serious but I wonder if there would be any appetite to rebrand treaty as Real Limerick FC, ala Real Salt Lake and the lesser known Real Madrid. It would certainly ruffle a few feathers anyway

Or 'Réal', which is the Irish word for 'develop'.

Rioga Limerick.

[legendz]

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/league-ireland-third-tier-edging-25385774

What odds do we reckon? Fantastic in theory of course and I'd absolutely support it but there's a lot to figure out to avoid the mistakes of the A Championship. Which, for what it's worth, I enjoyed. :)


Steady progress is being made on the establishment of a third League of Ireland division for the 2023 season.


THE League of Ireland is to seek expressions of interest for a delayed third tier in the coming months with the hope of it starting the competition in 2026.

2026 is currently being mooted as the launch year for the Third Tier.

"Up to 20 teams - including Leinster and Munster Senior League sides, university outfits and reserve sides of established League of Ireland clubs - will form the new tier. Ideally, the FAI wants to split it into two regional groups north and south of 10 teams each, and formal expressions of interest will soon be sought."

Sounds like a first iteration plan. If the FAI can get a third tier off the ground, the next step might be the link from district league upwards.
Any future plan should have a place for a Mayo FC.

[Martinho II]

2026 is currently being mooted as the launch year for the Third Tier.

"Up to 20 teams - including Leinster and Munster Senior League sides, university outfits and reserve sides of established League of Ireland clubs - will form the new tier. Ideally, the FAI wants to split it into two regional groups north and south of 10 teams each, and formal expressions of interest will soon be sought."

Sounds like a first iteration plan. If the FAI can get a third tier off the ground, the next step might be the link from district league upwards.
Any future plan should have a place for a Mayo FC.

What does proposals say about team that finishes bottom of 1st Division?

[legendz]

What does proposals say about team that finishes bottom of 1st Division?
Have heard or seen any reference to that so far. I suppose for any future potential pathway, the third tier is crucial. A link up to the First Division could possibly develop in time? Also linking district leagues up to the Third Tier could develop over time?

[nigel-harps1954]

There would have to be, at the very minimum, a playoff to get into the First Division. Otherwise, it's entirely pointless.

[David BOHie]

I really like the idea of a third tier. I think it's going to do a lot for football in this country. Firstly, you have vast areas with little or no league of ireland representation and this is a chance to fix it. Not only will it create more people going to games on a friday, but it will probably add a bit more interest to televised LOI games as LOI will be less alien to more parts of the country. Secondly, it will make the first division more competitive if you have the risk of relegation. Teams will actually have to give a damn and try push on.

As a bit of fun, who do we reckon some of the teams will be?

1. Mayo FC
2. CK United
3. Klub Kildare
4. Meath FC
5. Monaghan United (or some version of Cavan-Monaghan FC)
6. Maynooth University Town FC
7. Shamrock Rovers A
8. St Francis
9. UCC


Beyond that, I don't recall any junior clubs trying to join the LOI before but I might be missing a few.

[pineapple stu]

Is there any indication that this is any more likely than if was 2/3 years ago, or whenever it was last mooted?

[David BOHie]

Is there any indication that this is any more likely than if was 2/3 years ago, or whenever it was last mooted?

I haven't seen one to be honest. It does seem now the LOI kinda has its **** together a little bit more nowadays. Prize money is increasing, albeit at a glacial pace, there is money from the government coming in to the game to help with facilities. The rise in LOI crowds has continued. It just might be more likely that the current conditions do favour more clubs joining the LOI.

[nigel-harps1954]

Bonagee United, Letterkenny Rovers and Cockhill Celtic, all formerly off the parish Ulster Senior League have expressed interest in it, to the best of my knowledge.

[legendz]

There would have to be, at the very minimum, a playoff to get into the First Division. Otherwise, it's entirely pointless.
Agreed but I suppose the reality is that none of the entrants are likely to meet First Division criteria. The focus seems to be more on getting a third tier off the ground. It should be a natural evolution that's some club will progress to improve standards that a link is ultimately created to the First Division. For now, it seems a matter of walking before they run.

[nigel-harps1954]

Agreed but I suppose the reality is that none of the entrants are likely to meet First Division criteria. The focus seems to be more on getting a third tier off the ground. It should be a natural evolution that's some club will progress to improve standards that a link is ultimately created to the First Division. For now, it seems a matter of walking before they run.

There's teams in the First Division that arguably don't meet First Division criteria.

There is zero point in creating a division that offers no promotion into the First Division.

[pineapple stu]

There is zero point in creating a division that offers no promotion into the First Division.
Agreed - we already have plenty of those as it stands.

[JC_GUFC]

I really like the idea of a third tier. I think it's going to do a lot for football in this country. Firstly, you have vast areas with little or no league of ireland representation and this is a chance to fix it. Not only will it create more people going to games on a friday, but it will probably add a bit more interest to televised LOI games as LOI will be less alien to more parts of the country. Secondly, it will make the first division more competitive if you have the risk of relegation. Teams will actually have to give a damn and try push on.


More than crowds and general public it's more about giving the opportunity to players from these areas.

I don't know how many players from the Kerry Academy ended up playing in League of Ireland before Kerry FC joined the senior ranks - I'd be surprised if it was more than 2 or 3 - and they weren't bad at underage level.

If there's funding made available it hopefully wouldn't cost clubs too much to enter a senior team and more clubs could then express an interest.

Obviously the next stage would be to have proper "Senior Leagues" below this level. We've seen at Galway it's very difficult for any lad to step up from the Galway District League to League of Ireland level and that's not just when we've been in the Premier Division, even lads stuggled to make the step up to Division 1 a Connacht Senior League would obviously be a higher standard and make that step up slightly more manageable.

There's so much that needs to happen though, with the changing of the season in most leagues as well as a huge restructuring it's going to be very hard for the FAI to implement.

[EatYerGreens]

Bonagee United, Letterkenny Rovers and Cockhill Celtic, all formerly off the parish Ulster Senior League have expressed interest in it, to the best of my knowledge.

All 3 of them ? :eek:

Presumably Cockhill would be the best of those on the pitch, given they've been in the FAI Cup a few times recently? But population-wise you'd have to prefer a Letterkenny club. And at least Letterkenny Rovers has a name that would appeal to the whole town.

[EatYerGreens]

There's teams in the First Division that arguably don't meet First Division criteria.

There's also teams/a team in the Premier Division who arguably don't meet PD stadium criteria.

[EalingGreen]

Bonagee United, Letterkenny Rovers and Cockhill Celtic, all formerly off the parish Ulster Senior League have expressed interest in it, to the best of my knowledge.I know it's only one game, but Cockhill Celtic recently lost the final of the Presidents Cup to Enniskillen Rangers, a competition between the FAI and IFA Junior Cup winners:
https://www.irishfa.com/news/2024/september/enniskillen-rangers-victorious-in-presidents-cup-final

This was the first time (in five?) Finals that an IFA team had won; it may be that because of the absence of an FAI pyramid, ROI teams designated as "Junior" may in practical terms be closer to what in NI would be deemed to be Intermediate? (Ekn Rgrs, though arguably the top IFA Junior club these days, are happy with that status, having some years ago moved up to Intermediate status, before stepping down again.)

Beyond that, as you will know Nigel, football seems otherwise to be strong in many parts of Donegal, despite being cut off geographically from the rest of FAI football.

[FWIW - not much, probably! - I'm told that while Cockhill were a good lot who took a decent crowd to the Final in Ballinamallard etc, their football was distinctly "old-school" i.e. physical, direct, even Route One, so that Rgrs were able to outplay them with more of a passing/possession game.]

[EalingGreen]

Obviously the next stage would be to have proper "Senior Leagues" below this level. We've seen at Galway it's very difficult for any lad to step up from the Galway District League to League of Ireland level and that's not just when we've been in the Premier Division, even lads stuggled to make the step up to Division 1 a Connacht Senior League would obviously be a higher standard and make that step up slightly more manageable.Actually your Galway example is clear evidence that a "cart before the horse" approach is unlikely to work. For if you introduce a Third Tier first, even if it didn't exactly constitute "Senior" football, it would still likely be too much too soon for existing clubs, even the most progressive, to take a chance on stepping up. While Kerry FC nowithstanding, past/recent experience must prove that the idea of conjuring up a host of "new" clubs to fill a Third Tier simply won't work either. ('A' League anyone?)

So much more logical to rationalise Junior Leagues first on a local level, including upgrading facilities etc, so that the best/most progressive clubs would then be ready for Intermediate football organised on a regional basis. And from there, the best of those could hope to move up to the Third Tier, or even Senior football in time.

Of course this would take a good deal longer than merely imposing some some sort of Third Tier in 2026 (or whenever), but even if the Third Tier were somehow to work, what next?

While a more incremental, bottom-up approach would permit more time to rationalise the calendar in stages as well.

For let's face it, even the ancient Egyptians and Aztecs etc knew that you build a pyramid from the ground up, not the top down.

[legendz]

There is zero point in creating a division that offers no promotion into the First Division. Definitely. It must be the long-term goal. For now there's no indication that anyone applying for a third tier licence will be applying for a FD licence.

[nigel-harps1954]

All 3 of them ? :eek:

Presumably Cockhill would be the best of those on the pitch, given they've been in the FAI Cup a few times recently? But population-wise you'd have to prefer a Letterkenny club. And at least Letterkenny Rovers has a name that would appeal to the whole town.

FWIW, I don't think all 3 will get in, unless there's a real shortage of applicants and the FAI shoe-horns all 3 in. I reckon Cockhill and one of Letterkenny or Bonagee gets in, more likely to be Letterkenny at this rate.

Either way, it would be a real disaster for Harps to see another Donegal team in the league structures, let alone two. But Letterkenny are certainly starting to get their facilities in order in preparation.

[EatYerGreens]

I really like the idea of a third tier. I think it's going to do a lot for football in this country. Firstly, you have vast areas with little or no league of ireland representation and this is a chance to fix it. Not only will it create more people going to games on a friday, but it will probably add a bit more interest to televised LOI games as LOI will be less alien to more parts of the country. Secondly, it will make the first division more competitive if you have the risk of relegation. Teams will actually have to give a damn and try push on.

As a bit of fun, who do we reckon some of the teams will be?

1. Mayo FC
2. CK United
3. Klub Kildare
4. Meath FC
5. Monaghan United (or some version of Cavan-Monaghan FC)
6. Maynooth University Town FC
7. Shamrock Rovers A
8. St Francis
9. UCC


Beyond that, I don't recall any junior clubs trying to join the LOI before but I might be missing a few.

Ballymun United were saying a couple of years ago that they want to aim for LOI membership in-time - after their ambitious stadium plans happen : Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?height=322&href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2F129434440596 652%2Fvideos%2F582921959467726%2F&show_text=false&width=560&t=0)

[EatYerGreens]

FWIW, I don't think all 3 will get in, unless there's a real shortage of applicants and the FAI shoe-horns all 3 in. I reckon Cockhill and one of Letterkenny or Bonagee gets in, more likely to be Letterkenny at this rate.

Either way, it would be a real disaster for Harps to see another Donegal team in the league structures, let alone two. But Letterkenny are certainly starting to get their facilities in order in preparation.

Yeah - Letterkenny has a decent population by LOI standards and is growinng fast. It might even have been the fasest-growinng large town between the 2016 and 2022 census?

Harps will presumably always have decent local support, but over time it would be hard to see beyond a well-organised Letterkennny-based club in terms of dominating the county re media, sponnsorship, support etc.

[Acornvilla]

The people of Ballybofey need to up their procreaton game, you know what to do Nigel.

[thebronze14]

There's teams in the First Division that arguably don't meet First Division criteria.

There is zero point in creating a division that offers no promotion into the First Division.

I remember before people giving out that attendences and facilities wouldn't be good enough. We need to start somewhere though. If it works in the North then it can work here

[EalingGreen]

I remember before people giving out that attendences and facilities wouldn't be good enough. We need to start somewhere though. If it works in the North then it can work hereExcept that in NI, the IFA didn't just plonk in a (made-up) third tier ("Premier Intermediate League") and leave it there.

There was a five year(?) process of re-arranging the whole league structure, with a promotion pathway from Junior to Intermediate to Senior etc combined with an off-field programme of requiring that facilities be of sufficient standard to gain the appropriate licences. All of which involved existing clubs and took a lot of time and planning.

And even since then there have been continuous modifications and upgrades as and when needed/desired - we're currently on the 2nd (3rd?) Five Year Plan:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-fa-five-year-strategy

Granted a lot of that is the usual PR stuff of spin, hot air and management-speak; while management of the top three mens tiers and top womens tier has been devolved to the https://www.nifootballleague.com/. Nor do we have the summer/winter season problem to contend with.

Nonetheless it has overall been a very good thing for developing the game at all levels, in all parts of NI.

[legendz]

Where do LoI academies fit in to the Third Tier to First Division plans? Having an academy structure should be part of the First Division licencing. If the FAI bring in the 3 tier academy rating then, at least a tier 3 academy should be part of the First Division licencing.

[nr637]

I really like the idea of a third tier. I think it's going to do a lot for football in this country. Firstly, you have vast areas with little or no league of ireland representation and this is a chance to fix it. Not only will it create more people going to games on a friday, but it will probably add a bit more interest to televised LOI games as LOI will be less alien to more parts of the country. Secondly, it will make the first division more competitive if you have the risk of relegation. Teams will actually have to give a damn and try push on.

As a bit of fun, who do we reckon some of the teams will be?

1. Mayo FC
2. CK United
3. Klub Kildare
4. Meath FC
5. Monaghan United (or some version of Cavan-Monaghan FC)
6. Maynooth University Town FC
7. Shamrock Rovers A
8. St Francis
9. UCC


Beyond that, I don't recall any junior clubs trying to join the LOI before but I might be missing a few.



What would be the basic criteria for any grounds used by teams that may be part of this new third tier expansion of the league system in 2025!

Obviously the ground would need to be suitably closed off with proper exit/entrance provided.
The pitch would also need to have a suitable perimeter fence.
Acceptable toilet facilities.
Suitable dressing rooms for both teams and officials.
Suitable viewing areas for fans.
Option to segregate away visiting fans.

What are the ground facilities like at any of the teams above!

Anyone able to offer details of current non-league clubs, Senior or Junior that have a ground & facilities better than any of the current First Division clubs?

As usual I suppose the FAI policy will be to allow teams in with open fields with plans to upgrade overtime!

[Kiki Balboa]

A problem with expanding LOI is that Junior and Intermediate football is strongest around established LOI clubs / areas - due to both knowledge transfer and the archaic structure we have, which doesn't allow for the growth of regional teams.

For that reason, I think the FAI approach of developing a Kerry Fc or Mayo , is currently the right one, and the FAI shouldn't be against picking 'favourites' in unrepresented regions to develop.

[Kiki Balboa]

Also, just some other names it would be great for me to see in LOI reborn in the 3rd tier (dispite last post, would also prefer Junior clubs with a bit of history, rather than new teams):

Ex LOI:

Kilkenny City
Kildare County
Sporting Fingal
Thurles Town


Ex A-Championship:

Castlebar Celtic
Carlow FC
Tullamore Town

Rumoured of Potentially Joining LOI:

Mullingar Athletic (in early 2000s)
St. Francis
Athboy Celtic (which is probably a Meath team)
Ballymun

Currently strong non-LOI club:

Maynooth University Town
Malahide United
Lucan United
St. Kevin's Boys (carrys massive underage weight... would not be surprised if they tried to enter)
Newmarket Celtic

[legendz]

... For that reason, I think the FAI approach of developing a Kerry Fc or Mayo , is currently the right one, and the FAI shouldn't be against picking 'favourites' in unrepresented regions to develop.

Agreed 100%. District Junior leagues should feed into Intermediate Regional leagues. There should be an elite playing level to aspire to.
League of Ireland licencing and professionalism should have some degree of separation. The intention of all LoI clubs should be to attain a professional setup. A saturation of clubs as in Galway years ago won't help a vibrant professional setup.
A dual pathway is possibly a better approach in Ireland. The professional pathway within League of Ireland and licencing. The amateur pathway pathway from District to Regional.

[Kiki Balboa]

Agreed 100%. District Junior leagues should feed into Intermediate Regional leagues. There should be an elite playing level to aspire to.
League of Ireland licencing and professionalism should have some degree of separation. The intention of all LoI clubs should be to attain a professional setup. A saturation of clubs as in Galway years ago won't help a vibrant professional setup.
A dual pathway is possibly a better approach in Ireland. The professional pathway within League of Ireland and licencing. The amateur pathway pathway from District to Regional.

Exactly, because of how unbalanced soccer has developed in the country, you probably need to do both if you want a thoroughly functional pyramid.

Before joining them to LOI, Start rearranging Junior and Intermediate leagues (which also seems impossible because of the disputes over the calendar and the GAA) to allow for regional teams to naturally grow (where better run clubs overtake worse), while also parachuting in 'County' teams into the LOI to help give a type of 'center of excellence' to a region, which will help develop players and coaches in the area.

Just for example to show how LOI trickles down... There were some amount of ex Drogheda and Dundalk lads, both coaching and ex professional/underage players, that won the FAI Intermediate Cup with Glebe North this year.

[Elfman]

What would be the basic criteria for any grounds used by teams that may be part of this new third tier expansion of the league system in 2025!

Obviously the ground would need to be suitably closed off with proper exit/entrance provided.
The pitch would also need to have a suitable perimeter fence.
Acceptable toilet facilities.
Suitable dressing rooms for both teams and officials.
Suitable viewing areas for fans.
Option to segregate away visiting fans.

What are the ground facilities like at any of the teams above!

Anyone able to offer details of current non-league clubs, Senior or Junior that have a ground & facilities better than any of the current First Division clubs?

As usual I suppose the FAI policy will be to allow teams in with open fields with plans to upgrade overtime!

My suggestion might be a bit on the detailed side but let me know if this is more technical than people were expecting...

- min 2,000 capacity (of which 200 is at least covered seats and 800 is at least covered standing)
- pitch length a minimum of 95m
- pitch width a minimum of 60m
- min of 1 male, 1 female and 1 disabled toilet with separate toilets for home and away supporters
- separate dressing rooms for home & away teams, a min of 15sqm
- separate dressing room for referees, a min of 9sqm
- a minimum of 4 access turnstiles
- min of 5 reserved wheelchair spaces
- 500 LUX avg horizontal illumination floodlights

Thoughts?

[CorribsideSteve]

My suggestion might be a bit on the detailed side but let me know if this is more technical than people were expecting...

- min 2,000 capacity (of which 200 is at least covered seats and 800 is at least covered standing)
- pitch length a minimum of 95m
- pitch width a minimum of 60m
- min of 1 male, 1 female and 1 disabled toilet with separate toilets for home and away supporters
- separate dressing rooms for home & away teams, a min of 15sqm
- separate dressing room for referees, a min of 9sqm
- a minimum of 4 access turnstiles
- min of 5 reserved wheelchair spaces
- 500 LUX avg horizontal illumination floodlights

Thoughts?

Everything in the criteria listed would probably cost upwards of a million euro, or more.But it's a good list. Hopefully if a new club decides to do this, they can access future sports capital grants.

[Elfman]

Thanks Steve, appreciate the feedback. And while a million sounds a lot, you make a good point about accessing grants to help pay for it

I guess the point I'm making is that the requirements are a lot less than a UEFA Category 1 stadium (which is the minimum for a First Division side) and if that's a struggle for our teams to meet than should we be having a discussion about changing the licensing standards?

To use Galway as an example, I think United would easily meet this reqs but how far off would Mervue and Salthill be? I'd say they'd be able to meet them if the turnstiles, floodlights and seating were relaxed.

[EalingGreen]

By way of comparison, here are the IFA's Ground Regulations for the different levels of Football in NI, dated Nov.2019 (I think since updated, but can't find more recent):
https://www.irishfa.com/media/41546/ifa-joint-ground-criteria-nov-2019.pdf

I believe that the IFA can be quite strict in applying such matters, with none of the usual "Sure, it'll do" attitude which often prevails. For example, a while back there was a club in a town of just under 10k people, about 10 miles from Belfast, who were very progressive, including facilities at the ground, which they own. They spent a lot of money developing a new social centre (bar, function rooms etc), which was a good income generator and was combined with their other footballing requirements, incl dressing rooms.

But when they applied for the new Intermediate Licence, this was refused, because instead of the dressing rooms being within the maximum permitted 55m from the pitch, they were something like 70m away in the Social centre:
https://www.irishfa.com/media/24660/ifa-intermediate-ground-criteria.pdf

They eventually got their Licence, through some sort of individual derogation I assume, but this caused a lot of consternation, since overall their facilities were absolutely top class for a club of that size and standard.

* - Although our Third tier is called the "Premier Intermediate League", afaik clubs at that level need to comply with Second tier regulations, or commit to do so within a season of getting promoted to that level.

[Buckett]

I love the first line of that document: "The field of play must be rectangular.."! Like there was some renegade groundsmen with a preference for square pitches
FAI should just copy and paste those regulations. The problem though is they're so desperate for clubs to join that the requirements won't be enforced.

[EalingGreen]

I love the first line of that document: "The field of play must be rectangular.."! Like there was some renegade groundsmen with a preference for square pitches Taken, I believe, directly from FIFA's own regulations:

"The field of play must be rectangular and marked with continuous lines."
https://publications.fifa.com/de/football-stadiums-guidelines/technical-guideline/stadium-guidelines/pitch-dimensions-and-surrounding-areas/

So that's dotted lines out, then!

[nigel-harps1954]

Taken, I believe, directly from FIFA's own regulations:

"The field of play must be rectangular and marked with continuous lines."
https://publications.fifa.com/de/football-stadiums-guidelines/technical-guideline/stadium-guidelines/pitch-dimensions-and-surrounding-areas/

So that's dotted lines out, then!

Remove the penalty spots lads!

[EalingGreen]

Remove the penalty spots lads!
You may have a point.

No, wait...
" In geometry, a point has no size, but has a position. This means it has no volume, area or length. We usually draw a point as a small cross 'X' or a small dot (a small, round shape)."

This is all getting very pointless (if it wasn't already)...

[Elfman]

I have to come clean EalingGreen - my suggestions were based on the 2024/25 licensing criteria for... drum roll please... the NIFL Premiership!

I always thought it was mad that LOI's stadium criteria for the first division is UEFA Category 1, with Premier Division being UEFA Category 2. Especially when none of the Premier Division teams, bar Shamrock Rovers and, at a push, Shelbourne, Derry and Galway United, would play in venues that meet such high standards.

I take Buckett's point that LOI are so desperate for teams to join that they give out derogations yearly. But surely that means it makes more sense to lower our standards to a more attainable level? I thought Shels removing seats behind the goal in Tolka Park (to make it standing) improved the atmosphere of the place despite this moving them further away from Cat 2 standards.

If your interested, here's the link to the licensing criteria (Page 50, Annex A): https://www.irishfa.com/media/50261/2024-25-ifa-premiership-licence-manual.pdf

[EalingGreen]

I have to come clean EalingGreen - my suggestions were based on the 2024/25 licensing criteria for... drum roll please... the NIFL Premiership!Aye, I must say I thought they looked familiar, but I couldn't find that particular link on the IFA's website, so had to make do with what I did find.


I take Buckett's point that LOI are so desperate for teams to join that they give out derogations yearly. But surely that means it makes more sense to lower our standards to a more attainable level? I thought Shels removing seats behind the goal in Tolka Park (to make it standing) improved the atmosphere of the place despite this moving them further away from Cat 2 standards.The problem when accepting lower entry standards is that after the 3rd tier is up-and-running, and you then require the clubs to upgrade their facilities, what happens if they can't/won't? (They'll claim that they need what little money they have to keep them competitive on the playing front.)

With no 4th tier and below, the clubs wouldn't be subject to relegation, nor could the FAI simply throw them out, seeing as they lack any replacements. You might replace one or two errant clubs by clubs relegated from the First Division, except that the club(s) finishing top of the Third Tier couldn't/wouldn't step up in turn to replace them.

I'm said it so often I'm even boring myself(!), but you cannot build a pyramid from the top down, it has to be from the bottom up, until your leading clubs in the lower tiers have been sufficiently built up to bridge the gap to the top tiers.

Meanwhile, one additional side issue which may have a bearing is that of ground ownership. You will know much better than me, do many clubs in ROI - all levels - own their own grounds? Am open to correction, but I get the impression that more clubs in NI own their grounds than down South, at higher levels at least.

Which is important since clubs will be far more willing to improve their stadia if they own them than if they don't, esp when improvements pay for themselves to some extent by generating increased revenues.

[sbgawa]

I was talkinmg to a seniorish ref in the LSL and he told me (i sound like Enda Kenny meeting a "man" in the pub)....and he told me a good few of his referee mates would be in favour of a move to Summer soccer and aligning with the LOI.
Something id never considered before but he told me that the better refs operating at junior level and aspiring to move up see the disconnect between junor and senior soccer as a barrier to entry for them.
Not the first time ive never considered something from a refs perspectives.

Ive no idea how representative he is and how many "mates" he was talking about but considering the shortage of referees it could be another straw towards breaking this particular camels back.

[Elfman]

Aye, I must say I thought they looked familiar, but I couldn't find that particular link on the IFA's website, so had to make do with what I did find.

I think you might have shared the latest version before as I'd say that's where I got it from. Thank you if you did because I have to say I think they're great. Much more reasonable than demanding Category 1 stadiums from everyone without enforcing it - let UEFA do that if people qualify for Europe.


The problem when accepting lower entry standards is that after the 3rd tier is up-and-running, and you then require the clubs to upgrade their facilities, what happens if they can't/won't? (They'll claim that they need what little money they have to keep them competitive on the playing front.)

With no 4th tier and below, the clubs wouldn't be subject to relegation, nor could the FAI simply throw them out, seeing as they lack any replacements. You might replace one or two errant clubs by clubs relegated from the First Division, except that the club(s) finishing top of the Third Tier couldn't/wouldn't step up in turn to replace them.

Yes well I'd agree that any third tier would have to be created with a view to connecting to the existing 4th tiers (currently Leinster Senior League and Munster Senior League - not sure if Ulster Senior League is still running). And obviously you're adjusting the standards in the Prem and 1st Division so the leap isn't as great as it would be right now (and that's before we talk misaligned calendars!).

As for what to do if clubs can't or won't meet the standards, then you simply do what happens in England: if none of the winning teams in the divisions below meet the licensing criteria, they won't get promoted. This means there will be a reprieve for the team that should have been relegated, but only a reprieve. Wouldn't the same thing happen in the Northern Irish leagues if a promoted club didn't meet the criteria or is there a different option in place?


I'm said it so often I'm even boring myself(!), but you cannot build a pyramid from the top down, it has to be from the bottom up, until your leading clubs in the lower tiers have been sufficiently built up to bridge the gap to the top tiers.

Meanwhile, one additional side issue which may have a bearing is that of ground ownership. You will know much better than me, do many clubs in ROI - all levels - own their own grounds? Am open to correction, but I get the impression that more clubs in NI own their grounds than down South, at higher levels at least.

Which is important since clubs will be far more willing to improve their stadia if they own them than if they don't, esp when improvements pay for themselves to some extent by generating increased revenues.

Again I agree with you about the pyramid but the problem is that we don't even have one. I think connecting the different pieces together, so that movement is possible theoretically even if not realistically, needs to take place first and then you can start building better standards from the bottom up. Ground ownership is a good point and while I don't have the numbers to hand, the best junior teams I'm familiar with do own their own pitches. However, as a country we suffer with a lack of sports facilities in general and I've been told by coaches at grassroots level that some areas in the country have too many clubs to support teams at each age level and too few pitches to play on. So I guess it depends on where we're talking about starting for the bottom of the pyramid - counties? districts? parishes?

[Elfman]

I was talkinmg to a seniorish ref in the LSL and he told me (i sound like Enda Kenny meeting a "man" in the pub)....and he told me a good few of his referee mates would be in favour of a move to Summer soccer and aligning with the LOI.
Something id never considered before but he told me that the better refs operating at junior level and aspiring to move up see the disconnect between junor and senior soccer as a barrier to entry for them.
Not the first time ive never considered something from a refs perspectives.

Ive no idea how representative he is and how many "mates" he was talking about but considering the shortage of referees it could be another straw towards breaking this particular camels back.

Another interesting dimension to the discussion. Do we know how new LOI refs are chosen at the moment? Are they only selected from the provincial Senior Leagues?

[sbgawa]

I googled all our favourite referees Rob Hennessy and he came from the clare schoolboys league and the clare District league ....a big loss to them :)
I suppose they must all come through the junior leagues although I think damien mcgrath just wondered onto the pitch one day on his way from specsavers and decided to give it a go.

[Elfman]

A big jump to go from that level to the LOI. Haha, I'll say nothing here on that subject - I don't want a Stephen Bradley type ban!

[Buckett]

The underage LOI is where they would test out potential senior referees I'd imagine, after doing well in their district leagues.

[EalingGreen]

Yes well I'd agree that any third tier would have to be created with a view to connecting to the existing 4th tiers (currently Leinster Senior League and Munster Senior League - not sure if Ulster Senior League is still running). And obviously you're adjusting the standards in the Prem and 1st Division so the leap isn't as great as it would be right now (and that's before we talk misaligned calendars!).
Except that if it hasn't really proven feasible to "connect downwards" from the top two tiers to third tier, similarly it's not going to be feasible to connect further down from third tier to fourth and fifth.

The answer surely has to be to raise the game (playing standards, facilities, support, structures etc) from the bottom up, so that clubs can ascend to their optimal level as and when they're genuinely ready, not when, in the absence of any alternatives, the FAI/LOI says they'd like them to "have a go".

I mean, like the 'A' League before it, some of these proposals for the Third Tier are like Karaoke Night down the local pub: "Is there anyone else out there who'd like to come up on stage and have a go?" That's not how professional singers/bands develop, they have to learn their trade/pay their dues in small venues, earning little more than petrol money to start with, while they learn how to play and build an audience etc. And it's the pretty much the same with Football. (In other words it's a question of commitment. Or do I mean "The Commitments"? :))



As for what to do if clubs can't or won't meet the standards, then you simply do what happens in England: if none of the winning teams in the divisions below meet the licensing criteria, they won't get promoted. This means there will be a reprieve for the team that should have been relegated, but only a reprieve. Wouldn't the same thing happen in the Northern Irish leagues if a promoted club didn't meet the criteria or is there a different option in place?
Not sure exactly how it works everywhere in England, but we had exactly that problem in the IL last season. Dundela were flying high in the Championship (2nd Tier) and hoping to get promotion, if not automatically in top spot, then via finishing second and winning a play-off against the team finishing second bottom in the Prem.

However, because their pitch didn't meet the minimum width requirements for a Premiership Licence, they were told they could not be promoted. Instead, the automatic or play-off place would go to the next highest club who were eligible for a Prem Licence. Now as it happens, they eventually finished two points short of the play-off position, four short of automatic, so it was all academic. But the point is that the Duns are a leading and long-established club, who have held their own at the second or third level for years, and whose facilities and set-up are otherwise pretty good (indeed better, I'd say, than eg some LOI FD clubs):
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/dundelas-hopes-of-top-flight-football-ended-as-wilgar-park-pitch-fails-to-meet-premiership-size-regulations-4525890
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023%E2%80%9324_NIFL_Championship


Again I agree with you about the pyramid but the problem is that we don't even have one. I think connecting the different pieces together, so that movement is possible theoretically even if not realistically, needs to take place first and then you can start building better standards from the bottom up. Ground ownership is a good point and while I don't have the numbers to hand, the best junior teams I'm familiar with do own their own pitches. However, as a country we suffer with a lack of sports facilities in general and I've been told by coaches at grassroots level that some areas in the country have too many clubs to support teams at each age level and too few pitches to play on. So I guess it depends on where we're talking about starting for the bottom of the pyramid - counties? districts? parishes?From this outsider's viewpoint, I have to say your last sentence nails exactly how/why the FAI/LOI is getting it wrong.

For if a pyramid has to be built from the ground up, then before you even get to the construction phase, you have to have to have the right building blocks. And that must mean existing clubs, which are good enough to compete on the field, and strong enough, infrastructure-wise, to sustain themselves off it. Which suitability they must prove by working their way up through local leagues, then regional leagues, to Senior level, whilst also gaining the appropriate Licences.

And if such clubs are concentrated in certain areas which may already be well represented with Senior clubs, as they will likely be, then so be it. For that is simply a reflection that the game is obviously stronger in some areas than others. The corollary of which is that if other areas do not have such candidate clubs, there has to be a reason why eg population, tradition, competition with GAA etc. All of which means that it must be far harder to pluck some new, made-up club out of thin air and hope that it will thrive, or take a very minor existing one out in the sticks, than promote one which has already put in the hard yards over many years to prove it is fit, regardless of where it is located.

So the FAI really needs to forget this idea of "counties? districts? parishes?", a notion that may be suitable for a predominantly rural and amateur sport like GAA, and concentrate instead on promoting (literally and figuratively) proper clubs, in competitive leagues, based in areas which can sustain their development ( i.e. crowds, facilities, travelling etc)

I mean, it's not even as if you're permanently writing off these other non-footballing regions either, since experience eg in NI has shown that if you build a solid base in your traditional heartland (Belfast, Antrim, North Down, mid-Ulster etc), it is entirely possible in time to expand from the centre out to the regions (Tyrone, Fermanagh, South Down etc.)

[Elfman]

Except that if it hasn't really proven feasible to "connect downwards" from the top two tiers to third tier, similarly it's not going to be feasible to connect further down from third tier to fourth and fifth.

The answer surely has to be to raise the game (playing standards, facilities, support, structures etc) from the bottom up, so that clubs can ascend to their optimal level as and when they're genuinely ready, not when, in the absence of any alternatives, the FAI/LOI says they'd like them to "have a go".

I mean, like the 'A' League before it, some of these proposals for the Third Tier are like Karaoke Night down the local pub: "Is there anyone else out there who'd like to come up on stage and have a go?" That's not how professional singers/bands develop, they have to learn their trade/pay their dues in small venues, earning little more than petrol money to start with, while they learn how to play and build an audience etc. And it's the pretty much the same with Football. (In other words it's a question of commitment. Or do I mean "The Commitments"? :))

I'm a bit confused what evidence you're citing there... is the A Championship? If so, I agree that was a failure but I don't think it's intent was to connect the divisions, just an opportunity to give junior clubs a chance to play at a higher level. If not, I'd be keen to hear examples where "connecting downward" has failed when even the IFA have said they plan to insert 3 tiers into their pyramid (below the Championship and above the Intermediate leagues):
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/northern-ireland/ifa-confirm-significant-restructure-of-the-mens-football-pyramid-in-northern-ireland-with-changes-set-to-come-into-place-in-2026-4627896

What I really like about this proposal is clubs categorising themselves as Performance clubs or Everyday clubs: those clubs that want to progress through the pyramid and those clubs who prefer to focus on player participation. We might find out that all clubs below LOI level want to stay as everyday clubs, which would make a third tier a moot point.

Anyway, I'm keen to avoid the discussion descending into another 'third tier vs no third tier' debate. I've already pointed out that I agree with you about building from the bottom of the pyramid but the thread is called 'Third Tier Talk' so I'd prefer to focus on how a third tier could feasibly work.

Obviously the calendars would need to be aligned. Obviously running costs would have to be more practical (through travel reduction, amateur teams, grants, etc.). What I think is worthy of discussion is how that would look. What are the basics we would expect if we went to see a top amateur team? Separate toilets for home and away supporters might be a stretch at that level but surely separate toilets for men and women should not be. Could the LSL and MSL meet these standards? Let's ask them!

If we draw up new league stadium standards, similar to the NIPL, that are more realistic than UEFA's categories but this time we actually enforce them, it would help to regulate standards across the board. Most LOI teams don't qualify for Category 2 and none of the First Division sides qualify for Cat 1 (there was no TV studio at the recent U21s game in Turners Cross!). Your example of Dundela is a great one: OK it seems a little harsh but of course they shouldn't get promoted if the team directly below them meets the requirements. If you're not holding people to existing standards then you might as well have no standards at all, right?

[EalingGreen]

I'm a bit confused what evidence you're citing there... is the A Championship? If so, I agree that was a failure but I don't think it's intent was to connect the divisions, just an opportunity to give junior clubs a chance to play at a higher level.I don't think it's entirely correct to say that the 'A' Championship wasn't intended "to connect the divisions", since (non-Reserve) teams were entitled to be promoted to the second tier. Indeed Mervue and Salthill both managed it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Championship


If not, I'd be keen to hear examples where "connecting downward" has failed when even the IFA have said they plan to insert 3 tiers into their pyramid (below the Championship and above the Intermediate leagues):
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/northern-ireland/ifa-confirm-significant-restructure-of-the-mens-football-pyramid-in-northern-ireland-with-changes-set-to-come-into-place-in-2026-4627896
I think you're misunderstanding this latest move by the IFA. That is, for whatever reason, the NIFL, which runs Senior football autonomously in NI (devolved by the IFA, basically), has decided it doesn't want to continue running the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier).

Meaning that the IFA will now take responsibilty for administering third level football, as well as further down. But this latest move should not be construed as "inserting three tiers into the pyramid", rather it taking the opportunity restructure/rationalise the existing structure, involving the existing clubs, as they've been doing continuously ever since the present basic structure was originally set up.


What I really like about this proposal is clubs categorising themselves as Performance clubs or Everyday clubs: those clubs that want to progress through the pyramid and those clubs who prefer to focus on player participation. We might find out that all clubs below LOI level want to stay as everyday clubs, which would make a third tier a moot point.
No offence, but having two different categories of club in the same Division is kinda contradictory.
Now I know that some Leagues (eg Scotland, Spain, Netherlands) have a handful of Senior clubs' Reserve teams playing in lower tier divisions. But that is a reflection of the fact that there is such a disparity between the Senior clubs' standards, even at top tier level, that they could not sustain a straight Reserve League (Celtic Reserves vs Ross County Reserves anyone?).
Therefore the big clubs are allowed to insert their Reserves into lower divisions to give them proper competition, and/or make up the numbers.
But outwith all those few clubs, the remainder, who make up the great majority, are all expected to compete for promotion up the pyramid as best they can.



Anyway, I'm keen to avoid the discussion descending into another 'third tier vs no third tier' debate. I've already pointed out that I agree with you about building from the bottom of the pyramid but the thread is called 'Third Tier Talk' so I'd prefer to focus on how a third tier could feasibly work.

Obviously the calendars would need to be aligned. Obviously running costs would have to be more practical (through travel reduction, amateur teams, grants, etc.). What I think is worthy of discussion is how that would look. What are the basics we would expect if we went to see a top amateur team? Separate toilets for home and away supporters might be a stretch at that level but surely separate toilets for men and women should not be. Could the LSL and MSL meet these standards? Let's ask them!

If we draw up new league stadium standards, similar to the NIPL, that are more realistic than UEFA's categories but this time we actually enforce them, it would help to regulate standards across the board. Most LOI teams don't qualify for Category 2 and none of the First Division sides qualify for Cat 1 (there was no TV studio at the recent U21s game in Turners Cross!). Your example of Dundela is a great one: OK it seems a little harsh but of course they shouldn't get promoted if the team directly below them meets the requirements. If you're not holding people to existing standards then you might as well have no standards at all, right?That's all fair enough.

But if NI, with 40% of ROI's population (and 30% of its wealth?) can implement a pyramid, there is no good (emphasise) reason why ROI cannot. Ditto Wales and Scotland etc. But the FAI's problem is that they have prioritised the top two tiers to the complete exclusion of everyone else below, made worse by the season misalignment.

Therefore imo they are very unlikely to succeed by carrying on down that road, while hoping to to drag everyone else behind them, since the rest cannot keep up. Indeed the gap is so wide that the rest don't even want to.

Instead the FAI must surely concentrate on building up the clubs outside the top two tiers organically, so that they will eventually catch up themselves under their own efforts.

Which is only what happens/has happened in every other comparable system.