Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[pineapple stu]

The question is probably what do we want to achieve by introducing a third tier and/or pyramid structure. It's far from ideal having basket case clubs in the league with no threat of relegation but at the same time it has given Kerry the opportunity of establishing themselves in the league without the pressure of needing to get points on the board.
I think though the Kerry situation should be what we're trying to avoid - a club coming in and running the risk of losing all early momentum and goodwill with a series of crap results. It's what happened Cabo (who also didn't remotely have the facilities in place, apart from a big academy, and I agree with you that I think it's a definite help) and others before. Too soon they end up playing in front of 300-400 people and it's a real struggle to build from there.

So while I agree with your "What do we want to achieve" goal, I don't think the current setup is the way of doing it.

I also think with a pyramid, you take away the question of working out which towns can support a league team. The structure will naturally provide the answer. And it might be somewhere nobody considered before.

[EalingGreen]

Nobody's pushed out well-established clubs except themselves by being badly-run. Portadown seem to be permanently in crisis for example. Ards sold their ground almost 30 years ago and have been homeless ever since. There's nothing stopping Distillery getting out of the division they're in (third tier), but they haven't come close to managing it in seven years.Yep, Ports have been badly run for some time - buthat hardly makes them unique in the world of football, whether in Ireland or elsewhere. While the essentials are still there (stadium, support, location, history) until such times as they should get it right.

Ards buggered up, no doubt, but they finally look like returning to the town, up the road from their old ground:
https://planetradio.co.uk/cool-fm/local/news/ards-fc-aim-to-move-home-as-chairman-calls-on-executive-to-release-sub-regional-stadia-funding/
While they would never have survived this long without being able to groundshare with neighbours Bangor, who themselves would never have survived without the pyramid:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/northern-ireland/bangor-ground-development-is-next-step-in-clubs-top-flight-bid-3262754

As for Distillery, I don't think it's overstating it to say they were a (direct) victim of The Troubles. And if for various reasons their future in Lisburn is likely to be as an Intermediate club, that's partly because they're being overtaken by their Lisburn neighbours, Ballymacash Rangers.
The Cash are a very progressive club who have developed terrific facilities from scratch in just a few years. For their extensive community involvement, they're similar to eg Mullingar Athletic, the only difference being that having gone from Junior football to Intermediate football, they are determined to go all the way and give Lisburn its own home-grown Senior club for the first time:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/ballymacash-rangers-open-state-of-the-art-community-sports-facility-in-lisburn-2925442
Once again, none of this would have been possible without there being a pyramid, indeed such clubs wouldn't even have tried.

[EalingGreen]

I'm not sure why Distillery have cropped up in this coversation - maybe Ealing Green will correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like they've been irrelevant since they left Belfast.

They parachuted into a greyhound stadium on the outskirts of Lisburn and it's been a bit of a disaster. It seems there's a new club in Lisburn these days - Ballymacash Rangers - who could be in the Championship in a couple of season.I think it was 'Buller' who brought them into the conversation(?), but anyhow, Distillery are no more "irrelevant" than a club like Monaghan Utd or Cabinteeley, except that if ever they have a revival in fortune, they still have a clear route back to Senior status.
While for information, for the last five seasons in the top tier (to 2012/13), they still managed crowds of c.400 at Ballyskeagh, and that at a time when the divisional average was not much more than 800, itself half the figure today (c.1,600).


I know there were certain reasons for it but a couple of years ago I think Institute were playing in a public park in the Championship before they moved to Brandywell.Institute's ground at Drumahoe was very tidy - 3k capacity with half of those seated - I'd say better than many in the LOI FD, maybe even one or two in the PD? The ground was then completely flooded out after the 2017/18 season started, so they moved into a nearby municipal ground as an emergency measure. At the end of that season they moved to the Brandywell, while they tried to sort out Drumahoe.
Unfortunately they couldn't get Planning Permission from the Council to install flood barriers, since that would just have transferred the problem further downstream to a more populated area. And even if they could, the flood brought in Japanese knotweed, meaning they could never get insurance.
However they've now got the go-ahead to build a ground as the centrepiece of a new sports hub in the Waterside:
https://www.derryjournal.com/sport/football/institute-move-closer-to-relocating-back-to-waterside-4019517

In which context Stute are another interesting case. For the first 90-odd years of their existence they were a Junior team, albeit one of the more prominent ones. Then when DCFC moved to the LOI, they saw an opportunity to achieve first Intermediate status, then Senior. Some of this predated the present IL pyramid, but there's no doubt it has been assisted greatly on its way by the new structure.

And seeing as they were attracting 4-500 a decade ago, when crowds generally were v.low, there's no reason why, in the new stadium and with good management, they couldn't aspire to crowds approaching four figures if they got to the IL Prem, which should be enough to sustain p-t professional football. Which imo wouldn't be too shabby, considering they're very much the second team in a city of fewer than 100k.


The question is probably what do we want to achieve by introducing a third tier and/or pyramid structure.Expansion?

Comparing (Greater) Dublin with Belfast, there's no good reason why the former couldn't sustain another Senior club or two at the level of some of the existing ones. While Cork is much bigger than Derry for instance, yet unlike Derry, I'm not sure it's ever had more than one Senior club?

Unless footballing people in ROI are happy to carry on with the same 18 or 20 Senior clubs, with only a yawning chasm below?

[sadloserkid]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-65604796

[culloty82]

I think it was 'Buller' who brought them into the conversation(?), but anyhow, Distillery are no more "irrelevant" than a club like Monaghan Utd or Cabinteeley, except that if ever they have a revival in fortune, they still have a clear route back to Senior status.
While for information, for the last five seasons in the top tier (to 2012/13), they still managed crowds of c.400 at Ballyskeagh, and that at a time when the divisional average was not much more than 800, itself half the figure today (c.1,600).

Institute's ground at Drumahoe was very tidy - 3k capacity with half of those seated - I'd say better than many in the LOI FD, maybe even one or two in the PD? The ground was then completely flooded out after the 2017/18 season started, so they moved into a nearby municipal ground as an emergency measure. At the end of that season they moved to the Brandywell, while they tried to sort out Drumahoe.
Unfortunately they couldn't get Planning Permission from the Council to install flood barriers, since that would just have transferred the problem further downstream to a more populated area. And even if they could, the flood brought in Japanese knotweed, meaning they could never get insurance.
However they've now got the go-ahead to build a ground as the centrepiece of a new sports hub in the Waterside:
https://www.derryjournal.com/sport/football/institute-move-closer-to-relocating-back-to-waterside-4019517

In which context Stute are another interesting case. For the first 90-odd years of their existence they were a Junior team, albeit one of the more prominent ones. Then when DCFC moved to the LOI, they saw an opportunity to achieve first Intermediate status, then Senior. Some of this predated the present IL pyramid, but there's no doubt it has been assisted greatly on its way by the new structure.

And seeing as they were attracting 4-500 a decade ago, when crowds generally were v.low, there's no reason why, in the new stadium and with good management, they couldn't aspire to crowds approaching four figures if they got to the IL Prem, which should be enough to sustain p-t professional football. Which imo wouldn't be too shabby, considering they're very much the second team in a city of fewer than 100k.

Expansion?

Comparing (Greater) Dublin with Belfast, there's no good reason why the former couldn't sustain another Senior club or two at the level of some of the existing ones. While Cork is much bigger than Derry for instance, yet unlike Derry, I'm not sure it's ever had more than one Senior club?

Unless footballing people in ROI are happy to carry on with the same 18 or 20 Senior clubs, with only a yawning chasm below?

It's only since Cork City was founded that it's only had one club in the League - for many decades it was Cork Celtic and Cork Hibs, the latter were succeeded by Cork Alberts briefly, and the former were previously Evergreen United. Even that potted narrative doesn't tell half the story!

[cláirseach]

Writing centered around 'senior' status is really just a meaingless discussion of language. 'Senior' could be gifted through promotion of a club with an incidentally strong team, though fundamentally otherwise unchanged as club, into a higher division for a passing period, or even thorough the fairly arbitrary rebranding of an intermediate division as a senior division. Neither changes the reality of the club itself, it isn't a relevant yardstick for progression, nor even a coherent grading system. It is solely a label. Linguistics semantics is great and all that but be aware of what you're doing.

[cláirseach]

I thought the posts about Letterkenny Rovers etc. however were interesting. It must be difficult for a club who have in part defined themselves by their (relatively) elevated platform competing at a level of competition that they would view as above that of the majority of surrounding clubs to be faced with the prospect of joining the Donegal League. Could attempting to dominate the Donegal League really compensate for a club like that? What if their current peers (at least Bonagee) join and as a result LK fail to compete? There's even the potential reduction in prestige for their 'second' team to consider. You can see how the third tier would appeal really.

[EalingGreen]

Writing centered around 'senior' status is really just a meaingless discussion of language. 'Senior' could be gifted through promotion of a club with an incidentally strong team, though fundamentally otherwise unchanged as club, into a higher division for a passing period, or even thorough the fairly arbitrary rebranding of an intermediate division as a senior division. Neither changes the reality of the club itself, it isn't a relevant yardstick for progression, nor even a coherent grading system. It is solely a label. Linguistics semantics is great and all that but be aware of what you're doing.
Sorry, but that's nonsense.

In order to progress to Senior status, clubs need to acquire a Licence. This covers minimum standards of stadia, finance, facilities, qualified staffing, safety etc. These standards increase as you progress up the ladder. And it's not just an end-of-year exercise, Licensing requirements are monitored throughout the season, as outlined here:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-football-association/club-licensing

All of which is a hot topic in the IL just now. In the season just ended, Warrenpoint finished 2nd in the Championship (2nd tier), which would normally qualify them for a Promotion/Relegation play-off against the team finishing second bottom of the Prem, Dungannon Swifts. However, they've hit a major problem.

For in order to renew their Licences for next season, clubs have to have all their final Licencing documentation in with the IFA Licensing Committee by 31st March. The Committee has until 15th April to review them, then issue the new Licences. However, when the looked at Point's details, they found that there was an outstanding bill owed to HMRC (£14k?). And even though Point paid it in full by 14th April, the Licence was refused, since 31 March is a strict cut-off.

Point appealed (twice), but have been turned down both times, despite being represented by Barristers etc. They're now looking to Arbitration, but if that doesn't work, they won't be allowed to play in either the Prem or the Championship next season. In fact, it's not altogether clear yet whether they'll be allowed to play in the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier) - they may have to go down to whichever 4th tier league will have them.

And it's because the IFA is pretty tight on this sort of thing that we haven't seen clubs getting into financial difficulty, or even going bust entirely, as (ahem) certain other leagues have had to endure.

Nor is the granting of Licences all a "negative", since Licensing requirements are constantly being upgraded, which should be seen as a "positive" imo. Therefore before Loughgall will be permitted to play home Premiership games at Lakeview next season, they have to make improvements. They're rushing to get these done in time for next season, but if not complete by the start, they've had to nominate Glenavon's ground until Lakeview is ready. This is despite the fact that it was deemed adequate when the club were in the top tier a few years back.

Anyhow, with a capacity of 3k and a grass pitch, I'd guess it's better than one or two grounds in the LOI:

https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/43beb88a-fad0-424e-929f-926a21bc0dfa/fb_10158216383800657_1280x960.jpg/:/rs=w:1200,h:600,cg:true,m/cr=w:1200,h:600

While they have ambitious plans to improve the ground further, funding permitted:
https://www.armaghi.com/news/loughgall-news/loughgall-fc-plans-major-lakeview-redevelopment-with-new-stands-pitch-and-toilets/168239

But yeah, it's probably just semantics...

[cláirseach]

Thank you for the 450 word explanation of what licencing is, but your lengthy post didn't address or show any understanding of the post you were replying to. Senior is a meaningless term to apply across leagues. It does not have a fixed meaning and is not a standardised internationally or, indeed through time.

[EatYerGreens]

They'll have to do a lot to get crowds into Leckview Park, which is a very basic ground with a single 200 seater stand, and basic standing room around the pitch, tiny dressing room/clubhouse building, and little else going for them other than a very good location in Letterkenny.

A very good location in a fast growing town of 20,000 people sounds like a fairly decent starting point tbh. The stadium can always be improved. Is there space at the site to do that ?

[EatYerGreens]

What do you mean by "on fire"? Were that the case, then everyone inside (PD) would perish. If you mean that the "big" PD clubs are in a different financial league from the rest, then fair enough, but even there, there are significant financial disparities within the PD between clubs like UCD, Harps or Drogs, compared with Shams, Cork, Derry etc
Or how do you explain eg Scotland, where the Two Ugly Sisters suck the life out of the rest, yet a country of 5.5m can still somehow sustain a 42 team/4 division league pyramid, with Highland and Lowland feeder leagues beneath. Cove Rangers anyone?

You talk about "the LOI", as though it was one division. But teams coming up from a third tier wouldn't have to go straight into the PD (obv). The best/most sustainable should be able to find their level in the FD, until they grew, in time, to hope to go up another level.

Loughgall are an outlier - I doubt they'll last a season or two (max), just like their only previous short stay in the Prem, in the early noughties.
Which is hardly much different eg from Cobh (2008), Athlone (2014) or Wexford (2016) having their own solitary season in the sun.

In any case, I'm not saying that you should eg create a third tier next year or the year after and expect the top club or two to go straight into the FD the year after that - if anything, that is the opposite of what I'm suggesting.

Which is to build from the bottom up, rationalise your Junior clubs/leagues locally, then build up the best of those into a regionalised, Intermediate set-up, with ever more stringent requirements (financial, facilities, infrastructure etc) along the way, if participants are to achieve the appropriate License. So that eventually (10 years?) the best of the Intermediate clubs in a 3rd tier should be able to have a crack at the 2nd tier.

Or do you you have some alternative plan to expand the domestic professional game in ROI?

Or are you saying that a country like ROI can only ever be capable of sustaining a maximum of 17 or 18 Senior professional clubs, with some of those on a p-t basis?

And even then at the cost of occasional member clubs going bust every few years, only to re-emerge in a new wrapper, as though nothing had ever happened?

Ignoring a bit of weirdness and some factual errors in the above (e.g. Harps aren't a Premier Division club), how do you propose installing the root and branch change you suggest when leagues below the LOI aren't interested in changing to a Summer season (one actually took advantage of the recent turmoil in the FAI to revert back to a winter season), and the senior game is a minority voice within the sport ? It's all very well to excitedly map out a new structure for Irish fotball. But how do you implement it ? I've asked you this previously and don't recall a credible response (apologise if I missed it).

[EatYerGreens]

How does eg Scotland manage it?

It's very simple. The money for being in Scottish football is substantially higher than it is for being in the LOI. To the point where one league does not entail financial risk to clubs taking the stepping up, whilst the other clearly does.

The total prize pot for the SPL alone is £30m. For the LOI PD it's €430,000 (£369,000). The LOI PD prize money is therefore just 1.2% of the SPL prize fund (despite having crowds which are much higher than just 1.2% of Scotland's). The total prize fund across al 4 tiers of Scottish football is £34.35m (€39.2m). For the LOI's 2 divisions it's a total of €610,000 (£520,600) = 66 times smaller.

The prize money for being LOI PD Champions is €125,000 (£107,000). That's identical to the prize money just for finishing in second place in Scotland's 3rd tier (which is not even an automatic promotion place).

The winners of Scotland's lowest senior tier - League 2/4th tier - get £67,500/€76,500. The wnners of the LOI's lowest senior tier (FD/Tier 2) get less than half that = £31,000/€36,200. The LOI First Division involves 18 away fixtures. If we assume an average travel cost for each of those away games as being €1,000 for a decent 'luxury' coach (others can advise if that is too high or too low), then a club would have to finish in 4th place out of the 10 FD clubs just to cover their travel costs alone from the prize money. And this is a league with clubs at diametrically opposite eneds of the country (Donegal to Kerry and Wexford).

If you finish bottom of the LOI First Division this year, your prize money will be €11,600 (£9,900). That would only cover a fraction of your travel costs for the season. And all this FAI prize money is of course before deductions for all the things the FAi enforces financial penalties for (e.g, flares, player discipline etc). If you finish bottom of the Scottish 4th tier/League 2, your prize money is £45,000 (€51,000). Which would cover travel costs in that division. BTW - Finishing bottom of Scotland's 4th tier results in higher prize money than you get for finishing 3rd in Ireland's top tier (€45,000). So Cowdenbeath's financial prize last year for finishing rock bottom of all of Scotland's 42 senior football clubs, and being relegated to non-league in the process, was 13% greater than the money Dundalk got for finishing 3rd in the Irish top tier.

Is the penny dropping yet as to what the differences between Scotland and Ireland are, and why a club joining the LOi would face financiall risks of a level it just wouldn't in Scotland or NI ?

You're doing that thing you have a habit of doing on here where you come to a conclusion and fight to the death to defend it, even in the face of clear facts and'or overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

It is not at all financial suicide for a non-league club to step up to senior level in Scotland - given the money available there. It is in the LOI. And the fact that so few clubs actually want to step up is clear and incontravertible evidence for that. Unless you just believe that Irish clubs are just uniquely unambitious within world football.

[EatYerGreens]

Ultimately, as someone has mentioned, at the moment it would be financial suicide for St Michael's to join the LoI so until that changes we're just going to be left with the status quo and maybe a few jumped up academies and a couple more University sides to emulate UCD, though I would prefer if existing clubs established those links with universities as UCD have shown there isn't really much in the way of support for those teams, which I think is kind of important for the image of the league.

A number of us have now made that point, but Ealing Green refuses to accept it. Perhaps he knows and nderstands the reality of football in the south better than those who actually live and support the game here do.

[EatYerGreens]

As for Distillery, I don't think it's overstating it to say they were a (direct) victim of The Troubles. And if for various reasons their future in Lisburn is likely to be as an Intermediate club, that's partly because they're being overtaken by their Lisburn neighbours, Ballymacash Rangers.
The Cash are a very progressive club who have developed terrific facilities from scratch in just a few years. For their extensive community involvement, they're similar to eg Mullingar Athletic, the only difference being that having gone from Junior football to Intermediate football, they are determined to go all the way and give Lisburn its own home-grown Senior club for the first time:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/football/ballymacash-rangers-open-state-of-the-art-community-sports-facility-in-lisburn-2925442
Once again, none of this would have been possible without there being a pyramid, indeed such clubs wouldn't even have tried.

Ballymacash have made tremendous progress, but are hampered by the fact they have a small stadium in a hemmed-in location that is completely surrounded by a loyalist housing estate. All of that will put a relatively low ceiling upon their long term potential and appeal.

Their crowds this season have been decent for their level, but nothing spectacular either despite the obvious buzz around the club. They may well harbour hopes of being a top tier club, but I don't think they have the ingredients to sustain themselves at that level beyond the short term.

[EalingGreen]

Thank you for the 450 word explanation of what licencing is, but your lengthy post didn't address or show any understanding of the post you were replying to. Senior is a meaningless term to apply across leagues. It does not have a fixed meaning and is not a standardised internationally or, indeed through time.Yeah, you're right, I could have dispensed with 449 words and just gone with "Nonsense".

[nigel-harps1954]

A very good location in a fast growing town of 20,000 people sounds like a fairly decent starting point tbh. The stadium can always be improved. Is there space at the site to do that ?

They don't have much expansion space at all without purchasing a bit of land around them. 4G pitch runs alongside their main grass pitch, carpark at one end, small bit of space at the other end, and about six foot at the other sideline to the perimeter fencing.

[EalingGreen]

Ignoring a bit of weirdness and some factual errors in the above (e.g. Harps aren't a Premier Division club), how do you propose installing the root and branch change you suggest when leagues below the LOI aren't interested in changing to a Summer season (one actually took advantage of the recent turmoil in the FAI to revert back to a winter season), and the senior game is a minority voice within the sport ? It's all very well to excitedly map out a new structure for Irish fotball. But how do you implement it ? I've asked you this previously and don't recall a credible response (apologise if I missed it).There's no doubt that the LOI/FAI have erected a huge barrier for themselves with the seasonal split etc.
But if you're ruling out the pyramid structure that is used in just about every other country in Europe (and beyond), what is your prescription for expanding the domestic game?

Or are you happy to continue with the same 18 or 19 clubs, in the same 14 or 15 locations, with no real hope of anything new*?

Oh and btw, Finn Harps spent 4 of the previous 5 seasons in the PD before this one. But I'm sure you knew that.

* - Unless you count the occasional club going into Examinership/Bankruptcy, to be replaced by a "phoenix" club in a new wrapper as "new".

[EalingGreen]

It's very simple. The money for being in Scottish football is substantially higher than it is for being in the LOI. To the point where one league does not entail financial risk to clubs taking the stepping up, whilst the other clearly does.

The total prize pot for the SPL alone is £30m. For the LOI PD it's €430,000 (£369,000). The LOI PD prize money is therefore just 1.2% of the SPL prize fund (despite having crowds which are much higher than just 1.2% of Scotland's). The total prize fund across al 4 tiers of Scottish football is £34.35m (€39.2m). For the LOI's 2 divisions it's a total of €610,000 (£520,600) = 66 times smaller.

The prize money for being LOI PD Champions is €125,000 (£107,000). That's identical to the prize money just for finishing in second place in Scotland's 3rd tier (which is not even an automatic promotion place).

The winners of Scotland's lowest senior tier - League 2/4th tier - get £67,500/€76,500. The wnners of the LOI's lowest senior tier (FD/Tier 2) get less than half that = £31,000/€36,200. The LOI First Division involves 18 away fixtures. If we assume an average travel cost for each of those away games as being €1,000 for a decent 'luxury' coach (others can advise if that is too high or too low), then a club would have to finish in 4th place out of the 10 FD clubs just to cover their travel costs alone from the prize money. And this is a league with clubs at diametrically opposite eneds of the country (Donegal to Kerry and Wexford).

If you finish bottom of the LOI First Division this year, your prize money will be €11,600 (£9,900). That would only cover a fraction of your travel costs for the season. And all this FAI prize money is of course before deductions for all the things the FAi enforces financial penalties for (e.g, flares, player discipline etc). If you finish bottom of the Scottish 4th tier/League 2, your prize money is £45,000 (€51,000). Which would cover travel costs in that division. BTW - Finishing bottom of Scotland's 4th tier results in higher prize money than you get for finishing 3rd in Ireland's top tier (€45,000). So Cowdenbeath's financial prize last year for finishing rock bottom of all of Scotland's 42 senior football clubs, and being relegated to non-league in the process, was 13% greater than the money Dundalk got for finishing 3rd in the Irish top tier.

Is the penny dropping yet as to what the differences between Scotland and Ireland are, and why a club joining the LOi would face financiall risks of a level it just wouldn't in Scotland or NI ?

You're doing that thing you have a habit of doing on here where you come to a conclusion and fight to the death to defend it, even in the face of clear facts and'or overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

It is not at all financial suicide for a non-league club to step up to senior level in Scotland - given the money available there. It is in the LOI. And the fact that so few clubs actually want to step up is clear and incontravertible evidence for that. Unless you just believe that Irish clubs are just uniquely unambitious within world football.You keep banging on about Prize Money, as though that were the overriding source of revenue for any aspiring professional club, whether p-t or f-t. Meaning you ignore gate money, sponsorship and corporate, social clubs and lotteries, government funding/grants, UEFA and European money, plus the odd benefactor (DCFC or Larne), all of which bring income into clubs outwith mere Prize Money.

While you also ignore eg the fact of 20% VAT on gate revenues which hampers UK clubs.

You ignore the fact that with a population hardly much bigger than ROI, Scotland manages to maintain 42 Senior clubs, with a pyramid below, despite the Old Firm sucking the life out of everyone else.

You ignore the fact of 4 guaranteed European places giving a disproportionate financial boost to a small league of 10 clubs compared with other, larger leagues.

And you ignore the fact that there is bugger all prize money for the leagues in NI or Wales either, but they manage somehow to expand.

Or is that all you've got?

[EalingGreen]

They may well harbour hopes of being a top tier club, but I don't think they have the ingredients to sustain themselves at that level beyond the short term.Ballymacash very likely couldn't sustain Prem football into the medium term or beyond, but they're going for it nonetheless. And considering where they've come from (i.e. nowhere), in such a short space of time, the likes eg of them, Loughgall and Larne demonstrate what can be done with vision, ambition and investment - so long as there is a framework within which to go for it.

[joey B]

A very good location in a fast growing town of 20,000 people sounds like a fairly decent starting point tbh. The stadium can always be improved. Is there space at the site to do that ?

Seem a bit hemmed in with the river and retail units at both ends but seems plenty of room either side with their own Astro and a decent bit of ground on the other side.......

https://i.imgur.com/CBbXVaP.png

[Buller]

You keep banging on about Prize Money, as though that were the overriding source of revenue for any aspiring professional club, whether p-t or f-t. Meaning you ignore gate money, sponsorship and corporate, social clubs and lotteries, government funding/grants, UEFA and European money, plus the odd benefactor (DCFC or Larne), all of which bring income into clubs outwith mere Prize Money.


Because thats how Scottish lower league nationwide teams with small crowds can afford traveling any distance at all and paying travel costs of the cherry picked outlier distances you described. If you don't have crowds, prize money is the next biggest contributer by a wide margin.

Even Scottish second tier clubs earn between €250,000 and €750,000 in prize money.




You ignore the fact that with a population hardly much bigger than ROI, Scotland manages to maintain 42 Senior clubs, with a pyramid below, despite the Old Firm sucking the life out of everyone else.

Most of the population and clubs are in the region of 1 to 1.5hr drive between each other.

Please don't ignore this and cherry pick longest distance outliers again. Please use the median values rather than the extreme, as its very disingenuous supporting your point with rare cases.

Ireland has clubs more spaced out between populations centres with no prize money on offer to offset this big barrier to nationwide league entry.



You ignore the fact of 4 guaranteed European places giving a disproportionate financial boost to a small league of 10 clubs compared with other, larger leagues.


What has this got to do with allowing amateur teams to rise to the top division and established clubs to sink to junior football?



And you ignore the fact that there is bugger all prize money for the leagues in NI or Wales either, but they manage somehow to expand.


NI league can expand very easily in that tiny geographical region - just as there are hundreds of teams in the Leinster Senior League. Low barrier to entry.

Wales is also a much smaller country than Ireland, half the distances in a lot of cases. And even then, their 2nd tier is regionalised North & South.


Also, will let my LSL friends know they're actually p-t professionals!

[EatYerGreens]

There's no doubt that the LOI/FAI have erected a huge barrier for themselves with the seasonal split etc.
But if you're ruling out the pyramid structure that is used in just about every other country in Europe (and beyond), what is your prescription for expanding the domestic game?

Or are you happy to continue with the same 18 or 19 clubs, in the same 14 or 15 locations, with no real hope of anything new*?

Oh and btw, Finn Harps spent 4 of the previous 5 seasons in the PD before this one. But I'm sure you knew that.

* - Unless you count the occasional club going into Examinership/Bankruptcy, to be replaced by a "phoenix" club in a new wrapper as "new".

Where did I say I'm against a pyramid ?

I'm just pointing out to you that it's very easy to come on here and lecture us all about how football should be structured in the south. But you completely ignore reality in the process of that. And when challenged as to how your proposal can be implemented in the face of that reality - your response is to completely ignore that point and instead seek to challenge ME to say how I would change Irish football. When I'm not the one doggedly demanding on here that it be changed in an unachievable way !

So weird. And presumably it's because you have no solution to the limitations preventing your proposal from happening (but you'll cntinue to lecture us all to demand that it happens anyway).

P.S. Where Finn Harps used to be in the past is irrelevant to where they are now. They are very firmly a First Division club right now. Especially as there is zero danger of them getting out of the FD for the foreseeable future. This is just yet more evidence of you doggedly trying to defend anything and everything you say, even when it is clearly wrong. Please stop this and have the humility to acknowledge that sometimes we all get things wrong (and yes - that includes both me and you). You don't have Papal Infallibility, and don't have to defend to the death everything you say just because you've said it.

[EatYerGreens]

You keep banging on about Prize Money, as though that were the overriding source of revenue for any aspiring professional club, whether p-t or f-t. Meaning you ignore gate money, sponsorship and corporate, social clubs and lotteries, government funding/grants, UEFA and European money, plus the odd benefactor (DCFC or Larne), all of which bring income into clubs outwith mere Prize Money.

This is just kicking dust in the air to confuse things.

European prize money will be pretty much the furthest thing from the minds of any club considering taking the step up to the LOI/senior game. Just surviving at FD level for a few years to get themselves established is all they will realistically care about. Kerry FC being a perfect case in point. Gate receipts are a witheringly small proportion of the income for clubs in the FD. Government funding and grants obviously can't cover running costs - just capital investment. And a quick look around the LOI will show you how little such grant money there is anyway. Few clubs in the south have much in the way of a social club - and those that do have limited income from them outside of matchdays. So sponsorship is pretty much the only credible thing on your list there. But again I will point out the obvious - either Irish football clubs are uniquely unambitious within world football, in that they have no interest in rising to a higher level. Or they know full-well how difficult and punishing it is financially, plus the strucutural hurdle of the different seasons, so they're just not interested. Please tell us which of those 2 explanations you believe is causing the lack of clubs wanting to jon the senior game?

BTW - You should send your list of funding suggestions around Leinster Senior League clubs and see if it encourages any to want to take the step up to the LOI. The Champions League participation money in particular will be a real draw to them to enter the FD at the first available opportunity :star: #JonathanGabyVibes




While you also ignore eg the fact of 20% VAT on gate revenues which hampers UK clubs.

I don't ignore it at all. It's just that when your prize fund is 66 times SMALLER tha the money available in a league in a comparable country, the fact you can hold on to a bit more of your fairly mediocre gate money really does whither in relevance and importance. I will highlight again the pretty staggering fact that the worst performing club in the lowest tier of Scottish senior football gets more in prize money than the 3rd best performing club in the LOI's highest tier receives.


You ignore the fact that with a population hardly much bigger than ROI, Scotland manages to maintain 42 Senior clubs, with a pyramid below, despite the Old Firm sucking the life out of everyone else.

What has that got to do with the fact that there is real financial jeopardy involved in a club joining the LOI ?


You ignore the fact of 4 guaranteed European places giving a disproportionate financial boost to a small league of 10 clubs compared with other, larger leagues.

What has that got to do with the fact that there is real financial jeopardy involved in a club joining the LOI's lowest tier ? And that just survivng at FD level is as far as they can realistically see ? I'm sure Kerry FC were planning to hear the Champions League anthem at Mounthawk Park next Summer when they submitted ther applicatio to join the LOI First Division for 2023. #DreamBig


And you ignore the fact that there is bugger all prize money for the leagues in NI or Wales either, but they manage somehow to expand.

Not ignored at all. I've highlighted repeatedly how there is feck all money in those leagues, so the cost of participation within them is a lot lower (plus travel costs are tiny in the NI pyramid). Hence why clubs can get promoted to the top tier of the IL from tiny villages and with relatively few supporters and little money. Because they're only competing against other similar clubs to achieve that prize. What's the old phrase - 'In the Land of thr Blind, the one-eyed man is king' ? Then there's that stubborn problem of different seasons and an unwillingness for non-senior clubs to change away from it, which you repeatedly refuse to accept is a barrier that can neither be ignored nor wished away (and which you have no credible solution for).


Or is that all you've got?

Touché ! You remind me of the Black Night in Monty Python's 'The Holy Grail'. Reduced to a limbless stump on the ground by repeating the same failed points ad nauseum and ignoring nfact-based challenges to them, yet still trying to claim you're thrashing everyone else's points on this issue :D Just too funny x

[EalingGreen]

@EatYerGreens

Let's strip this back to basics. You say you're not opposed to a pyramid, at least in principle, so why not start to construct one starting from the bottom up, rather than attempting to build it fro the top down i.e. this hare-brained proposal for a third tier.

If nothing else, this would offer time (10 years? 20 years?) to address the problems of entry cost to the 2nd or 3rd tiers for new clubs, such as low prize money and high travelling expenses. I mean, many other comparable countries face those exact same problems and yet have somehow found a solution. Or do you feel that ROI is somehow a uniquely special case?

Maybe you do. Or maybe you are content to accept the status quo such that when it comes to expanding and growing Senior, professional club football in ROI, the LOI has pretty much stalled at 20 clubs (incls DCFC, UCD and Kerry), with all attempts at expansion to date proving unsuccessful ('A' league, new "Franchise" clubs, parachuting in of existing small clubs, Reserve sides etc). A further consequence of which is that the existing LOI clubs know that they can risk spending money they don't really have, in the pursuit of silverware, since even if they should go belly-up, the league cannot take the ultimate disciplinary action and demote, or even expel them, since there are never any new clubs to take their place.

Do you have your own solution to all this?

Or maybe you don't feel the need for a solution, since you don't consider this to be a problem in the first place?

I'll throw this back to you, in the (possibly vain) hope that you will stick to the issues and not resort to your m.o. of personalising the debate and handing out ad hominem digs etc

[EatYerGreens]

@EatYerGreens

Let's strip this back to basics. You say you're not opposed to a pyramid, at least in principle, so why not start to construct one starting from the bottom up, rather than attempting to build it fro the top down i.e. this hare-brained proposal for a third tier.

Honestly - this is in 'banging head against brickwall territory' now.

Please educate us all on how a pyramid can be implicated in a scenario where :

1) The seasons are out of synch.
2) Clubs below the LOI appear to have little interest in switching to a Summer season (& one actually reverted back to a winter one at the first opportunity).
3) The LOI is a minor voice within the running of football here.
4) The FAI's infuence within and control over the non-senior game is lower now than it was during the Delaney era.

I'm not the one banging the table repeatedly, lecturing everyone and demanding that a pyramid be introduced for the LOI. You are. So it's YOUR responsibility to expain how what you're demanding can be delivered. It's not for me to dig you out of this particular hole. (Though I note that I did previously some months ago provide an answer for how a pyramid could be introduced, which you rubbished at the time on the false pretence of 'political interference')

Please don't respond again with more bluff, obfuscation, segways and lectures until you have an answer for how your proposed revolution in Irish football will be implemented in the face of entrenched opposition. Surely you have some idea for how to deliver what you're demanding ?

Many thanks.

[EalingGreen]

How to build a pyramid?

Even the Ancient Egyptians new 3,000 years ago that you start at the bottom and build up.

In ROI's case that means starting with Junior clubs and rationalising the setup by introducing local leagues with broadly comparable standards.

Then when you've got that sorted, you add a regionalised, Intermediate set-up at the next level up (mitigates the travel problem).

With each step upwards, you progressively increase the requirements to get the appropriate Licence - stadium, finances, facilities, qualified staff etc.

Eventually you get to the stage whereby the step-up to a 3rd tier, and from there to the FD, and then PD, is not so steep and unrealistic as to be completely prohibitive.

Of course such a process could never be achieved overnight, but that just means there is time to address the major issues such as Prize money, and of course, the seasonal imbalance.

All of which takes long term vision, commitment and resourcing from all the different stakeholders who control the game. Which means starting sooner rather than later.

Of course you may consider that this is unachievable (though I really do wonder how comparable countries like Iceland, Finland, Albania, Wales and NI have managed it).

Either way, the FAI's current proposal to start with a third tier (the subject of this thread, remember), must surely be doomed to failure - it's that building from the top down thing again.

On which point, if you agree that that cannot work, but also don't believe that my suggestion could be made to work, then instead of having a pop at me - again - then why not answer the questions I posed to you in my last post, namely:

"Do you have your own solution to all this?

Or maybe you don't feel the need for a solution, since you don't consider this to be a problem in the first place?"

[JC_GUFC]

To be fair I think this has kind of somewhat started in Leinster/Dublin.

The AUL used to be the big 'Junior' League in Dublin mainly consisting of Northside teams and then the Leinster Senior League was the big Intermediate League, mainly consisting of Southside teams.

For various footballing political reasons a lot of clubs started to leave the AUL and join the LSL - they had to join in 5th or 6th tier. Now the AUL is pretty much redundant and the LSL is the strongest league in the country.

In the top Division of this season's LSL Killester, Malahide and Ballymun were all playing in the AUL relatively recently. Even Sheriff YC who were the AUL's strongest team left a couple of seasons ago - they were promoted to Intermediate from Junior football but for whatever reason seem to have not finished this season in the LSL 4th tier.

I do agree with EalingGreen that other leagues need to be similarly structured. Like the Munster Senior League is exclusively clubs from Cork but surely this needs to include the best of Waterford, Tipp, Limerick, Kerry and Clare leagues - you could even have the argument that it doesn't necessarily have to be on a provincial basis - depending on how many 'senior leagues' there will be. You should get promoted from those "county" leagues into a wider Munster League, if there is an element of rivalry within Limerick, for example, this would really boost the profile of the local cup tournaments, so the "big shots" from the Munster League are playing the teams left behind in the cup competition!

The Ulster Senior League being wound up should present an opportunity to review what the plans are for Donegal/Inishowen etc.

[JC_GUFC]

I think though the Kerry situation should be what we're trying to avoid - a club coming in and running the risk of losing all early momentum and goodwill with a series of crap results. It's what happened Cabo (who also didn't remotely have the facilities in place, apart from a big academy, and I agree with you that I think it's a definite help) and others before. Too soon they end up playing in front of 300-400 people and it's a real struggle to build from there.

So while I agree with your "What do we want to achieve" goal, I don't think the current setup is the way of doing it.

I also think with a pyramid, you take away the question of working out which towns can support a league team. The structure will naturally provide the answer. And it might be somewhere nobody considered before.

But how else would a team from Kerry enter League of Ireland when no structure is in place to enable them to do so? Tralee Dynamos tried to enter via A Championship but were stopped - I do feel this version is more sustainable than Tralee Dynamos would have been as they already have the structures in place with the academy and they have a greater reach than a club named "Tralee".

I've been at a couple of their games so far and though their crowds will inevitable drop they're far more likely to survive than Cabo ever were. First off the facilities at Mounthawk Park are far superior to those at Stradbrook, which really shouldn't have been allowed host LoI matches, also I'm not sure how much the people of Cabinteely really bought into them being represented on the LoI stage? That's definitely a thing for Kerry - and it would likely be more a thing for Ballymun, if for example they joined.

I suppose you're right - the pyramid should, in theory, show which clubs are serious about being a LoI club. If for example Crumlin United kept winning the Leinster Senior League but made no effort to improve their ground so were kept on being refused LoI status it could create a bit of a log jam of teams behind them - but ideally the scenario would be that players would leave Crumlin as they'd like to earn more by playing LoI (in practice at the moment that's not the case).

Finally just on the NI structure, a club like Annagh, who were in the playoff last year and will be again this year, being promoted and playing in Coleraine, surely doesn't add much, if anything to the clubs who want the NI League to become professional. There's an absolutely massive gulf in standards between the top and bottom sides, much more so than in LoI.

[nigel-harps1954]

You'd wonder if Warrenpoint will possibly look towards the LOI, if rules permit, and they seek UEFA permission, since they're being pushed out of the senior Irish League ranks.

[JC_GUFC]

You'd wonder if Warrenpoint will possibly look towards the LOI, if rules permit, and they seek UEFA permission, since they're being pushed out of the senior Irish League ranks.

I would say there's absolutely no chance. First off IFA would have to sanction that move, which I'd imagine they absolutely wouldn't as in their view Warrenpoint have broken the rules. I think there was some talk of Newry doing similar when they suffered a similar fate but I've no idea if they seriously looked into it. It didn't take them long to get back up and Warrenpoint should be able to manage the same.

[EatYerGreens]

How to build a pyramid?

Even the Ancient Egyptians new 3,000 years ago that you start at the bottom and build up.

In ROI's case that means starting with Junior clubs and rationalising the setup by introducing local leagues with broadly comparable standards.

Then when you've got that sorted, you add a regionalised, Intermediate set-up at the next level up (mitigates the travel problem).

With each step upwards, you progressively increase the requirements to get the appropriate Licence - stadium, finances, facilities, qualified staff etc.

Eventually you get to the stage whereby the step-up to a 3rd tier, and from there to the FD, and then PD, is not so steep and unrealistic as to be completely prohibitive.

Of course such a process could never be achieved overnight, but that just means there is time to address the major issues such as Prize money, and of course, the seasonal imbalance.

All of which takes long term vision, commitment and resourcing from all the different stakeholders who control the game. Which means starting sooner rather than later.

Of course you may consider that this is unachievable (though I really do wonder how comparable countries like Iceland, Finland, Albania, Wales and NI have managed it).

Either way, the FAI's current proposal to start with a third tier (the subject of this thread, remember), must surely be doomed to failure - it's that building from the top down thing again.

On which point, if you agree that that cannot work, but also don't believe that my suggestion could be made to work, then instead of having a pop at me - again - then why not answer the questions I posed to you in my last post, namely:

"Do you have your own solution to all this?

Or maybe you don't feel the need for a solution, since you don't consider this to be a problem in the first place?"

With respect, all that this tells us is that you genunely don't understand the realities within football south of the border. Maybe send the above to the FAi along with an invoice for the consultancy work?

[EatYerGreens]

You'd wonder if Warrenpoint will possibly look towards the LOI, if rules permit, and they seek UEFA permission, since they're being pushed out of the senior Irish League ranks.

No chance. Newry didn't when they were in a similar(ish) posiiton, and the rules won't allow it anyway.

A bigger potential challenge coming down the line for football in that corner of South Down is the fact that Rathfrailand are in for the play-offs for promotion to the Irish League 3rd/intermediate tier. They're located 11 miles from Warrenpoint and 12miles from Newry City FC, in a very small triangle to the east of Newry town. In case anyone thinks this sounds a wee bit like Galway, Mervue and Salthill, it would arguably be worse than that - because whilst these clubs are located a bit further apart, Newry has a population of only 30,000, so is less than half the size of Galway. Someone told me that the fortunes of Newry and Warrenpoint tend to see-saw between themselves as it is (i.e. when one does well the other less so, because they're competing for a small pool of players). If a third 'high-level' club was added to that it could make all of them worse by spreading the resources too thinly. Will be interesting to see what happens.

[pineapple stu]

But how else would a team from Kerry enter League of Ireland when no structure is in place to enable them to do so?
Well, true - but this is what we need to develop though.


I suppose you're right - the pyramid should, in theory, show which clubs are serious about being a LoI club. If for example Crumlin United kept winning the Leinster Senior League but made no effort to improve their ground so were kept on being refused LoI status it could create a bit of a log jam of teams behind them - but ideally the scenario would be that players would leave Crumlin as they'd like to earn more by playing LoI (in practice at the moment that's not the case).
The Crumlin example is probably quite likely alright - but you could mitigate that to an extent by allowing promotion to the highest-placed team with a licence (within reason - top 3 in a 12-team league or something)

Funding the LoI better would also help sort the problem - but then funding the LoI better would help sort lots of problems, and it's not something the FAI have been overly bothered with down the years, sadly. And who knows when they'll get around to it with their finances the way they are.

[EatYerGreens]

Funding the LoI better would also help sort the problem - but then funding the LoI better would help sort lots of problems, and it's not something the FAI have been overly bothered with down the years, sadly. And who knows when they'll get around to it with their finances the way they are.

I would say that a better-funded LOI structure would be an essential pre-requisite to the introduction of any pyramid.

As has been rehearsed ad nauseum on here by myself and others, the finances of joining the LOI FD largely don't stack up at the moment. If that isn't addressed the risk with a pyramid would be either clubs passing up on the opportunity to be promoted (thereby making a bit of a mockery of the structure) or clubs taking the step up and gettting their fingers burned as a result. So to give a pyramid the best chance of success the financial appeal/viability of the senior game should be addressed in tandem.

[yurt]

I skipped through most of the posts in this thread so sorry if this has been discussed but how many junior leagues are already running on a summer calendar? I seem to remember the Mayo league being one.

I'm sure it's been discussed at length but to me the problem is clearly that 99% of clubs in the country are continuing to play winter football. It makes no sense that we are sending out people of all ages to play in the wind and the rain is muck patches across the country. If the FAI can find a way to convince junior leagues to move to a summer calendar all these issues around which clubs or regional sides can join senior football would begin to figure itself out naturally.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the new FAI are at least trying to fix the right issues so hopefully this is something which we will see some progress on over the coming seasons.

[Buller]

I skipped through most of the posts in this thread so sorry if this has been discussed but how many junior leagues are already running on a summer calendar? I seem to remember the Mayo league being one.

I'm sure it's been discussed at length but to me the problem is clearly that 99% of clubs in the country are continuing to play winter football. It makes no sense that we are sending out people of all ages to play in the wind and the rain is muck patches across the country. If the FAI can find a way to convince junior leagues to move to a summer calendar all these issues around which clubs or regional sides can join senior football would begin to figure itself out naturally.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the new FAI are at least trying to fix the right issues so hopefully this is something which we will see some progress on over the coming seasons.

Interesting. Is there are reason Galway and Mayo leagues exist separately? Would make sense for there to be a Connaught League - Castlebar/Westport 1hr-1.5hr drives from Galway City / Loughrea / Ballinasloe. Madness they're not combined.

[Burnsie]

I mean, if you're talking about merging leagues, you could start in Leinster - a very small administrative area (in international terms) which has - and I'm not making this up (http://www.leinsterfa.ie/affiliated-leagues) - at least seventeen different league systems within it (albeit a handful of them are underage).

[Buller]

I mean, if you're talking about merging leagues, you could start in Leinster - a very small administrative area (in international terms) which has - and I'm not making this up (http://www.leinsterfa.ie/affiliated-leagues) - at least seventeen different league systems within it (albeit a handful of them are underage).

Oh I know that; there'll always be local leagues. But its a shame there's no Connaught-wide top tier league in the region like there is in Leinster.

[JC_GUFC]

Interesting. Is there are reason Galway and Mayo leagues exist separately? Would make sense for there to be a Connaught League - Castlebar/Westport 1hr-1.5hr drives from Galway City / Loughrea / Ballinasloe. Madness they're not combined.

Funny you should say this because Ballinasloe don't play in the Galway & District League - they play in Roscommon!

When Salthill & Mervue left the League of Ireland the talk was they'd join a revived Connacht Senior League but for whatever reason there wasn't enough interest to make that happen.

There are plenty of clubs you'd think should have been interested such as Castlebar and Westport in Mayo, Boyle Celtic in Roscommon, Manor Rangers from Leitrim, a few Sligo clubs. Costs would go up but teams would also be playing at a higher standard.

Maybe there were other issues around the realigning of seasons or something but it didn't seem to get off the ground at all - there could also be a lack of footballing political will for this to happen.

[legendz]

Interesting. Is there are reason Galway and Mayo leagues exist separately? Would make sense for there to be a Connaught League - Castlebar/Westport 1hr-1.5hr drives from Galway City / Loughrea / Ballinasloe. Madness they're not combined. Limerick and Tipperary have two district leagues. Why would Mayo join Galway? Mayo League have entered the League Cup previously. Castlebar were in the A Championship. Mayo were in the U14 league last year. Mayo will probably follow Kerry's path in the next few years.
The first step in building any pyramid will be to have a number of district leagues offering promotion to a regional league.
The last time this thread was in full swing I was suggesting a dual pyramid. District leagues offering promotion to regional leagues. The LoI and third tier being for those who apply for an elite licence. Part of the elite licence criteria being participation in the youth leagues.

[culloty82]

You don't even need to call that a dual pyramid - once the third tier is established, set out a five-year plan for reforming intermediate leagues at provincial level, moving to a summer calendar and linking into the junior leagues, all the while agreeing entry criteria similar to the senior Club Manual, but obviously not as onerous in Tier 4.

[EatYerGreens]

You don't even need to call that a dual pyramid - once the third tier is established, set out a five-year plan for reforming intermediate leagues at provincial level, moving to a summer calendar and linking into the junior leagues, all the while agreeing entry criteria similar to the senior Club Manual, but obviously not as onerous in Tier 4.

The problem is the inertia and politics in the game below senior level, combined with the fact the FAi has even less influence amongst those ranks now than it did under Delaney (who had bought them all off).

I suspect that the way to whip everyone into shape/get them onboard will be funding grants. More money for Irsih football's lower levels to help them cope wiht the desired transition.

Otherwise, why will they willingly change ? They don;t currently value the LOI, so see no need for a route up through the levels to get into it. There needs to be a whole culture and power shift within the game.

[EalingGreen]

With respect, all that this tells us is that you genunely don't understand the realities within football south of the border. Maybe send the above to the FAi along with an invoice for the consultancy work?If you really meant "respect" - and nothing in your posts has ever indicated that you do - then rather than sniping from the touchlines, you'd amswer my simple question, namely:

"Do you have your own solution to all this?

Or maybe you don't feel the need for a solution, since you don't consider this to be a problem in the first place?"

[EatYerGreens]

If you really meant "respect" - and nothing in your posts has ever indicated that you do - then rather than sniping from the touchlines, you'd amswer my simple question, namely:



Stop swinging your handbag love. You'll do yourself an injury.


"Do you have your own solution to all this?

Or maybe you don't feel the need for a solution, since you don't consider this to be a problem in the first place?"

Firstly - I'm not the one demanding the change, so I don't have to come up with a solution. And I note that you have failed repeatedly when challenged to outline how the issues in Irish football that make the switch to a pyramid difficult to achieve can be overcome. But sure, you just demand a different standard from everyone else :rolleyes:

As it happens - I do have a solution to introducing a pyramid. Or more correctly, to unlocking rhe various barriers that currently prevent it. I outlined it in some detail on here months ago. The solution is essentially money. Using funding to restructure the game at all levels by cajoling the junior and intermediate leagues into what the FAI wants them to do in order to get the grants. Money that will inevitably have to come from the government (as the FAI is still largely skint).

You should be well aware of this proposal btw - because you scoffed at it on here when I raised it previously (with the nonesense claim that UEFA would reject it as political interference).

So there's you're answer. And it's one you've already had from me for at least 6mths now (pay atention at the back please!)..

So what is your solution to unlocking the barriers within Irish football that currently prevent the changes required to introduce a pyramid ?

[legendz]

The problem is the inertia and politics in the game below senior level, combined with the fact the FAi has even less influence amongst those ranks now than it did under Delaney (who had bought them all off).
A third tier is one way to circumvent those politics. The Ireland u17s had a great results last evening. Many of the players being part of LoI academies. Brexit seeing young players stay in Ireland for longer. The national youth leagues becoming established in recent years.
How many families have a kid in an LoI club's academy. That is building a connection.
Some people go on about Kerry support dwindling away. Time will tell. Many families have had someone playing for Kerry in the youth leagues since 2016. There is an appreciation of the level and no expectation of overnight success. That is support on a solid enough foundation.
Ireland u17s are an endorsement of the youth league structure. The glaring piece missing in the current LoI puzzle is that tier between u19 and the LoI. The third tier should be a natural progression from U19s without being obligatory for clubs. It might suit the likes of Shamrock Rovers. There wouldn't be many First Division clubs if any fielding a second team.

[EalingGreen]

Stop swinging your handbag love. You'll do yourself an injury.Pathetic.


Firstly - I'm not the one demanding the change, so I don't have to come up with a solution. And I note that you have failed repeatedly when challenged to outline how the issues in Irish football that make the switch to a pyramid difficult to achieve can be overcome. But sure, you just demand a different standard from everyone else :rolleyes:
I'm not "demanding" change either, merely pointing out that if it is required to expand the Senior club game in ROI, the obvious mechanism to do so is via a pyramid, as adopted in just about every other country. And you build a pyramid from the bottom up, not the top down. Which is why inserting some sort of 3rd tier in isolation seems doomed to failure.
As for how I think it might be done, see my post #976 (I know you read it because you replied to it - #981)


You should be well aware of this proposal [of mine to introduce a pyramid btw] - because you scoffed at it on here when I raised it previously (with the nonesense claim that UEFA would reject it as political interference).Aiui, political interference is only a problem if the Association in question objects to it. And such interference occurs, and is accepted, all the time - eg IFA reforming its Board and governance structures at the behest of the Minister/Sports Council, or the English FA accepting a Regulator. Such interference will most often be accepted (ahem) when an Association is skint and requires a financial bail-out.
Oh, and this is a FIFA matter, not a UEFA one.


So what is your solution to unlocking the barriers within Irish football that currently prevent the changes required to introduce a pyramid ?How curious that you have a habit of referring back to posts you claim others make, though without actual quotations, yet ignore the answers which are right in front of you, in this case #976.

[Shinkicker]

No chance. Newry didn't when they were in a similar(ish) posiiton, and the rules won't allow it anyway.

A bigger potential challenge coming down the line for football in that corner of South Down is the fact that Rathfrailand are in for the play-offs for promotion to the Irish League 3rd/intermediate tier. They're located 11 miles from Warrenpoint and 12miles from Newry City FC, in a very small triangle to the east of Newry town. In case anyone thinks this sounds a wee bit like Galway, Mervue and Salthill, it would arguably be worse than that - because whilst these clubs are located a bit further apart, Newry has a population of only 30,000, so is less than half the size of Galway. Someone told me that the fortunes of Newry and Warrenpoint tend to see-saw between themselves as it is (i.e. when one does well the other less so, because they're competing for a small pool of players). If a third 'high-level' club was added to that it could make all of them worse by spreading the resources too thinly. Will be interesting to see what happens.
Rathfriland won't have a major impact on Warrenpoint or Newry. It may be 11 or 22 miles away but it's very remote. On amateur league match day its almost impossible to get parked (this includes players) the local recycling center (next door) gets blocked and if its busy the access road is totally blocked is total mayhem. The locals give out like fcku.

[EalingGreen]

You should be well aware of [my proposal for introducing a pyramid] btw - because you scoffed at it on here when I raised it previously (with the nonesense claim that UEFA would reject it as political interference).
I must confess that I was baffled when I read that, since it is at odds with my understanding of how this works. So I did a search back through the thread and found that it was another poster entirely who had made this case (see post #'s 608 & 614).

By contrast, this is what I posted on the topic (#665):
FIFA only prohibits unwanted political interference/instruction in football. In other words, FIFA will not object so long as the Association in question accepts the intervention/instruction, even if that "acceptance" is only on pain of getting government funding cut off if it doesn't.
(And once again, I would point out that the suspension or expulsion of a Member Association is not a delegated matter for individual Confederations either, i.e. it is for FIFA to decide, not UEFA)

Indeed there have been a couple of other instances previously when you have attributed something to me - without an actual link, of course - which I did not recognise, but I couldn't be arsed to trawl back through the relevant thread. So I'll be charitable and assume that rather than making things up, it may just be that your memory is faulty - God knows, you have spats with so many posters on here that it must be hard for you to keep up.

[JC_GUFC]

https://westernpeople.ie/2023/05/25/big-games-confirmed-for-mayo-u21-development-squad/


Interesting story coming from Mayo that they’re putting together an u21 Development squad that will play against some LoI clubs.

Surely this is fairly obvious step towards creating a side that will compete in a third tier.

Also I see a few soundings again, this time from Declan Devine, about having u21 teams for LoI clubs.

[EalingGreen]

Surely this is fairly obvious step towards creating a side that will compete in a third tier.Compete against whom?