Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[sadloserkid]

It will end in tears. He seems all over the place. But what is one more deluge of tears in the league anyway? I wonder what are the two counties he's considering to set up shop?

[abcd]

Was good to hear but light on detail. Im trying to figure out what angle they are taking. What are their plans if they were to be admitted and what is the end goal is in so far as there is any?

Is the goal to throw money at it to compete and chase the European windfall pipe dream or are they trying to see a gap in the market where they have a nominal league of ireland senior team on a small budget and build a youth infrastructure to provide a gateway to the UK? Alternatively is it a gateway for Eastern European players? They had a lot of random players signed up for last season.

They clearly have nobody on board who has a good knowledge of League of Ireland football or Ireland in general tbh.

It seems like complete pie in the sky to me. Part of me is thinking we don't need another club coming in and inevitably folding in the league of ireland but part of me wants to see what kind of car crash this would be.

[pineapple stu]

That's a really frustrating video. 21 minutes of some Yank spouting every Paddy cliché going, and the interviewer never once asked why a club with literally absolutely nothing - no ground, underage structure, history, or even a location more concrete than "Not Dublin" - wanted to join the league, and why they wouldn't go the same way as lots of other clubs before.

But yeah, waffle on about Jack Charlton and the Black n Tans; that'll help run a club.

[sadloserkid]

That's a really frustrating video. 21 minutes of some Yank spouting every Paddy cliché going, and the interviewer never once asked why a club with literally absolutely nothing - no ground, underage structure, history, or even a location more concrete than "Not Dublin" - wanted to join the league, and why they wouldn't go the same way as lots of other clubs before.

But yeah, waffle on about Jack Charlton and the Black n Tans; that'll help run a club.

Chris Makin CAPTAINED Sunderland, what do youth structures matter against that?

[Nesta99]

Stopped watching as soon as he questioned scheduling of games in a 11 team league and computers could do it - that's just ridiculous! If it was that easy the FAI would have done it long ago, and it might do someone out of a job if computer generated fixture lists existed..... I dunno whether to laugh at the poor naïve souls or that it could actually be that easy for the FAI to schedule fixtures sensibly.

Sport Ireland pulling Morten Stadium probably has more to do with them desperate to offload its management and DCU making enquiries about taking it on and another tenant could have complicated that process. That said irrespective of what is thought about ISFC there would have had to be an agreement on the stadium for the licensing application so Sports Ireland could have been messing for whatever reason?? Some other non athletics tenants could be ousted too in due course. Or it was orchestrated by Rovers FAI insiders try to get SRFCII back in LoI;) or the FAI baulking at things when here wasnt reason to refuse a license so got others to do their bidding or even is it an elaborate prank....20 signed on staff but any footballers?

[NeverFeltBetter]

That was painful.

-So did they have a binding agreement with Sport Ireland or not? He says he could have sued, why didn't he?

-Yes the big issue with 11 teams in a league is figuring out what computer programme will sort out scheduling. Nothing else to overcome. No siree.

-Chris Makin deserves to be involved in the League of Ireland because he captained Sunderland? (not that he won a First Division/Championship in England twice, that's a lesser honour of course).

-When he goes in on Irish history/culture/etc it reminds me of Sean Gallagher during the 2018 Presidential Election: https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1048875833064972288

-The guy's use of "great" just screams Trump.

-A connection with the Kilcoynes, it gets better.

[Lim till i die]

He's been sniffing around Paud down here trying to take over Limerick FC. Which will give you an idea of how clued in he is.

I can also confirm there's no real money there.

[NeverFeltBetter]

POS and the Kilcoynes would be a hell of a partnership.

[Eminence Grise]

But yeah, waffle on about Jack Charlton and the Black n Tans; that'll help run a club.

Two extremes there. One knew how to fill a stadium and the other...

[EatYerGreens]

Two extremes there. One knew how to fill a stadium and the other...

One knew how to sell a stadium...

[Neish]

It will end in tears. He seems all over the place. But what is one more deluge of tears in the league anyway? I wonder what are the two counties he's considering to set up shop?

I doubt they will wander too far from Dublin, Meath or Kildare I'd say. Maybe Laois, Cavan or Carlow at a push

[EatYerGreens]

I doubt they will wander too far from Dublin, Meath or Kildare I'd say. Maybe Laois, Cavan or Carlow at a push

Apart from Meath I don't think there's any point trying with those other places to be honest. Kildare tried a County club from within (ot planted from externally like these guys are trying to do), and it never really took off. No-one lives in Carlow, Cavan or Laois. Their whole counties each have smaller populations than Galway city.

The problem is that football is primarily an urban sport, and there are few population centres in Ireland of any size without an LOI club already. Navan is probably your best bet really. Has a 30,000 population, a decent sense of local identity, a good interest in 'soccer', and an LOI club hasn't been tried there before (I know Drogheda get a bit of support from Meath).

[Martinho II]

Apart from Meath I don't think there's any point trying with those other places to be honest. Kildare tried a County club from within (ot planted from externally like these guys are trying to do), and it never really took off. No-one lives in Carlow, Cavan or Laois. Their whole counties each have smaller populations than Galway city.

The problem is that football is primarily an urban sport, and there are few population centres in Ireland of any size without an LOI club already. Navan is probably your best bet really. Has a 30,000 population, a decent sense of local identity, a good interest in 'soccer', and an LOI club hasn't been tried there before (I know Drogheda get a bit of support from Meath).

Thats an excellent point about Navan. Didnt realise that its soccer hotbed. I should know this but their name escapes me but wots the name of the team from Navan thats in LSL or so? I had no idea that Navan is so big!

[Nesta99]

Navan Cosmos? The MDL grounds in Navan are a hotbed of football alone. Navan seems a bit of a no mans land in football terms - there is a fairly big Drogheda following and a large Dublin population that already have colours nailed to the mast never mind the GAA obsession. Population aside Trim could well a better spot to try and grow a community backed club.

[sadloserkid]

I think Park Villa are the 'big' club in Navan.

[nigel-harps1954]

Apart from Meath I don't think there's any point trying with those other places to be honest. Kildare tried a County club from within (ot planted from externally like these guys are trying to do), and it never really took off. No-one lives in Carlow, Cavan or Laois. Their whole counties each have smaller populations than Galway city.

The problem is that football is primarily an urban sport, and there are few population centres in Ireland of any size without an LOI club already. Navan is probably your best bet really. Has a 30,000 population, a decent sense of local identity, a good interest in 'soccer', and an LOI club hasn't been tried there before (I know Drogheda get a bit of support from Meath).

Portlaoise and Carlow aren't much smaller than Navan, to be fair. Although I don't think Portlaoise would support a LOI side.

[Philosophizer]

Apart from Meath I don't think there's any point trying with those other places to be honest.

Navan is probably your best bet really. Has a 30,000 population, a decent sense of local identity, a good interest in 'soccer', and an LOI club hasn't been tried there before

Having been born and raised in Meath and spent most of my life living here I can tell you soccer is very much the minority sport. Gaelic football rules. Even though Meath are poor these days, this is still very much a Gaelic football stronghold, no doubt about it. Also Navan is a big rugby town.

There are some decent clubs like Park Villa in Navan, Dunboyne, Trim Celtic, and some up near Louth too like Duleek, but soccer has always been the poor relation here.

The county has a big population nowadays, especially Navan, but there would be nothing like the interest in LOI like other similarly sized towns like Drogheda or Dundalk, or even much smaller ones like Sligo or Athlone. I'd like to be proven wrong but I can't imagine there would ever be enough interest to support a new LOI team.

[Kiki Balboa]

Having been born and raised in Meath and spent most of my life living here I can tell you soccer is very much the minority sport. Gaelic football rules. Even though Meath are poor these days, this is still very much a Gaelic football stronghold, no doubt about it. Also Navan is a big rugby town.

There are some decent clubs like Park Villa in Navan, Dunboyne, Trim Celtic, and some up near Louth too like Duleek, but soccer has always been the poor relation here.

The county has a big population nowadays, especially Navan, but there would be nothing like the interest in LOI like other similarly sized towns like Drogheda or Dundalk, or even much smaller ones like Sligo or Athlone. I'd like to be proven wrong but I can't imagine there would ever be enough interest to support a new LOI team.

But of course they wouldnt have an interest in LOI- there is no team in Navan. It is a chicken and an egg situation. Maybe a LOI team would is needed first to build a base.

My knowledge of Meath football is east Meath is a Drogheda strong-hold. Duleek and Bettystown should be the area that Drogheda get fans from. As for Navan, they have a great MDL pitches, but they dont produce many good teams and are not that competitive at most levels (as compared to something like Evergreen of Kilkenny). Navan is really a place the LOI should expand into (if there were resources for that to happen) but at the moment, I'd say there is not much interest.

[Raheen]

Having been born and raised in Meath and spent most of my life living here I can tell you soccer is very much the minority sport. Gaelic football rules. Even though Meath are poor these days, this is still very much a Gaelic football stronghold, no doubt about it. Also Navan is a big rugby town.

There are some decent clubs like Park Villa in Navan, Dunboyne, Trim Celtic, and some up near Louth too like Duleek, but soccer has always been the poor relation here.

The county has a big population nowadays, especially Navan, but there would be nothing like the interest in LOI like other similarly sized towns like Drogheda or Dundalk, or even much smaller ones like Sligo or Athlone. I'd like to be proven wrong but I can't imagine there would ever be enough interest to support a new LOI team.

Parkvilla was in the LSL put returned to the NEFL a few years ago, where it's one of a pair of Navan sides in the top division.

I lived in Navan for a decade and was disppointed with the low standing of football in the town compared to rugby or gaelic football. There are a number of Navan sides in the NEFL but the standard of football is relatively poor given the population base. Also, there are a lot of Dubliners living in Navan, notably on the Johnstown side and they're mostly interested in EPL. In the south of Meath, football is much stronger with both Dunboyne and Ratoath Harps in the LSL.

[Philosophizer]

Yea for a town that size it's surprising that soccer isn't more popular. I honestly think the influence of Colm O'Rourke can't be underestimated. He's been the principal in St Pat's (massive secondary boys school in Navan) and was teaching there for decades and runs the football in the school. They've never had any soccer team in the school. The anti soccer schtick is bred in early in Meath.

[Philosophizer]

Also worth noting that Meath only recently got a 1st competitive Ireland international in Jamie McGrath. Not much soccer tradition in the county.

[Philosophizer]

In the south of Meath, football is much stronger with both Dunboyne and Ratoath Harps in the LSL.
I'd agree with this. Towns like Ashbourne, Ratoath and Dunboyne near the Dublin border would actually have stronger interest in soccer. And their populations have grown a lot since the 90s with the spillover from Dublin.

[Kiki Balboa]

https://www.fai.ie/domestic/news/fai-centenary-intermediate-and-junior-cup-draws-made

There is the draw for the FAI cup. I wonder if any of these would fancy a go at the this new tier, particulary Westport, Freebooters and Clonmal

[pineapple stu]

How are Maynooth University Town set up for this? They were looking to apply this year I think as a combined college/local team. I think they've practically nothing in terms of spectator facilities though, someone was saying? Has there been any developments there? You'd imagine they'd be an obvious candidate if the third tier is looking at college teams (which I don't actually agree with as a specific club demographic to target)

[Philosophizer]

How are Maynooth University Town set up for this? They were looking to apply this year I think as a combined college/local team. I think they've practically nothing in terms of spectator facilities though, someone was saying? Has there been any developments there? You'd imagine they'd be an obvious candidate if the third tier is looking at college teams (which I don't actually agree with as a specific club demographic to target)
No spectator facilities at all in Maynooth, Stu. No idea if they're planning anything.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Maynooth would be an interesting application, but it's hard to see them having a pitch that would meet even relaxed licensing. The astroturf on college grounds might have room to the north for a small stand where there's a little bit of green, it's surrounded by internal college roads otherwise. The Maynooth Town pitch has a bit more space for something like that admittedly. But whose going to pay for it?

What were the requirements for the old A Championship?

[pineapple stu]

This is Tullamore's ground, and they played in the A Championship.

https://www.ourgrassroots.ie/media/ousfntpa/tullamore-town-fc-pitch.jpg

They're looking to build a small stand, I think, but so far as I can see that's what they have now. The clubhouse is nice from what I recall (we played in them in the League Cup around 2008) and while a clubhouse isn't a stand, it's certainly nice to have it already there.

They might be an interesting one in that they were in the old LoI B Division, so there is a bit of LoI history there - albeit that it's a long time ago now and maybe not of huge relevance today. But a lot of the current provincial sides had good LSL backgrounds - Longford, Dundalk, Bray, even Sligo.

[nigel-harps1954]

If Salthill Devon and Mervue were allowed into the First Division with no spectator facilities then precedence has already been set. As long as someone can provide proof of future plans for a stand of some sort, then that should be adequate for the third tier.

[Nesta99]

If Salthill Devon and Mervue were allowed into the First Division with no spectator facilities then precedence has already been set. As long as someone can provide proof of future plans for a stand of some sort, then that should be adequate for the third tier.

Acceptable practice in the top tier as it is,

[Martinho II]

I think Park Villa are the 'big' club in Navan.

No better man Sadloserkid thats the team I had in mind!

[Martinho II]

I wonder is there any appetite for a Mayo based side to be in the loi? Castlebar Celtic is the team I have in mind! Their manager is ex Longford Town,Athlone Town and Galway Utd player Stephen Gavin. Think they are the biggest side in Co Mayo top of my head.

[Bucket]

The Mayo League have a couple of LOI underage teams so presumably they will continue on this pathway to U19's and then senior level. There's 5 or 6(I think) Mayo lads playing underage for Ireland so there's definitely potential.

[EatYerGreens]

Having been born and raised in Meath and spent most of my life living here I can tell you soccer is very much the minority sport. Gaelic football rules. Even though Meath are poor these days, this is still very much a Gaelic football stronghold, no doubt about it. Also Navan is a big rugby town.

There are some decent clubs like Park Villa in Navan, Dunboyne, Trim Celtic, and some up near Louth too like Duleek, but soccer has always been the poor relation here.

The county has a big population nowadays, especially Navan, but there would be nothing like the interest in LOI like other similarly sized towns like Drogheda or Dundalk, or even much smaller ones like Sligo or Athlone. I'd like to be proven wrong but I can't imagine there would ever be enough interest to support a new LOI team.

I take your point, but would respond with 2 additional points.

Firstly - show me a county that has a genuinely big interest in soccer and which doesn't already have an LOI team ? I honestly don;t believe there is one. So by that yardstick, the league would never expand geographically.

Secondly - there are LOI clubs which manage to survive or even thrive in predominantly GAA counties. Finn Harps being probably the clearest example. If they weren't a senior club and you were looking for where the next LOI club could come from, I doubt you'd think Donegal - let alone a small town with a population of only 6,000 within it. Longford is another example. Longford Town may not be packing out Flancare (or whatever it's called these days) Park, but they're almost 40yrs in the senior game now and have aquitted themselves well for being from a small town (10,000 people). Again - if they weren't senior you wouldn't be looking to Longford as an obvious place for a senior club to come from.

There will be pockets of potential in even otherwise-GAA counties. Navan may not be the best example of that - but there will be others. If not, the we may as well just stick with what we've got, plus the occasional new Dublin team.

[EatYerGreens]

Maynooth should only be allowed in if they're restricted to picking priests from the seminary.

Echoes of that Father Ted 'All Priests Challenge Match' episode

[Eminence Grise]

Could work, but Romeo Sensini is player-coach at Termonbarry Alberts these days.

[pineapple stu]

Longford is another example. Longford Town may not be packing out Flancare (or whatever it's called these days) Park, but they're almost 40yrs in the senior game now and have aquitted themselves well for being from a small town (10,000 people). Again - if they weren't senior you wouldn't be looking to Longford as an obvious place for a senior club to come from.
I don't quite agree with that. Longford had a long history as an intermediate team and were an obvious candidate to join the senior ranks. I think they were briefly a decent junior side before joining the LSL around 1937. They had some strong teams in it; they nearly won the LSL a couple of times in the 60s (they got screwed over one year in particular by LSL incompetence) and won the Intermediate Cup five times. The Cup runs in particular always generated a lot of interest in the town.

The LSL back in the day was a silly league in its own right - there wasn't even relegation to its own second tier for much of it - but it did at least highlight potential new senior teams (along with, as already mentioned, Dundalk, Sligo, UCD, Bray and Athlone). Leixlip and Tullamore were probably the only other regional teams to compete in the time before the LoI First Division.

It's a pity it's now really a Dublin and District League, but it does show how if you could just fix the setup at non-league level, that suitable teams would rise to the top in places you mightn't have thought of if you were basing things off franchise football.

[Bucket]

If there was promotion/relegation between LSL and LOI, would many of the LSL teams actually want to go up?
Would the LSL change their season to the calendar season?

[EatYerGreens]

I don't quite agree with that. Longford had a long history as an intermediate team and were an obvious candidate to join the senior ranks. I think they were briefly a decent junior side before joining the LSL around 1937. They had some strong teams in it; they nearly won the LSL a couple of times in the 60s (they got screwed over one year in particular by LSL incompetence) and won the Intermediate Cup five times. The Cup runs in particular always generated a lot of interest in the town.

The LSL back in the day was a silly league in its own right - there wasn't even relegation to its own second tier for much of it - but it did at least highlight potential new senior teams (along with, as already mentioned, Dundalk, Sligo, UCD, Bray and Athlone). Leixlip and Tullamore were probably the only other regional teams to compete in the time before the LoI First Division.

It's a pity it's now really a Dublin and District League, but it does show how if you could just fix the setup at non-league level, that suitable teams would rise to the top in places you mightn't have thought of if you were basing things off franchise football.

But Longford is a GAA county. Which was the point that was made to rule out Meath.

[pineapple stu]

Longford is maybe more of a football county than you give it credit for though. It can first and foremost be a GAA county, but there can still be degrees of second preference, and Longford Town top anything in Meath or Carlow or Laois. I don't agree it wasn't an obvious choice to go looking for a senior club. They may be a fairly meh senior club - I hope the Town guys won't mind me saying that! - and it's certainly hard to see where you'd get a club with much more potential than them (and that does include three European qualifications this century, and promotion only last year). But that's no reason not to try.

But bottom line is I don't think it helps trying to pick places that "should" have LoI clubs. The Navan/Dunboyne example is a good one, where the less obvious candidate may be the better one.

And while, say, Meath clubs are allowed tip away in the Meath District League and never push themselves for promotion to a higher level, then really there's no incentive for an LoI team to emerge from Meath. And that goes for most other unrepresented counties too.

[Mr A]

Secondly - there are LOI clubs which manage to survive or even thrive in predominantly GAA counties. Finn Harps being probably the clearest example. If they weren't a senior club and you were looking for where the next LOI club could come from, I doubt you'd think Donegal - let alone a small town with a population of only 6,000 within it.

While I would never argue that Harps make a lot of sense, it is a big football county. It has Donegal, Inishowen and Ulster Senior Leagues. The GAA is strong as well of course, but a quick scan of this admittedly incomplete and out of date wiki page would support the idea that Donegal has a lot of football clubs and people.

I mean this is pretty impressive, even if the pandemic may have ruined some of it: https://www.donegaldaily.com/2020/10/07/four-new-clubs-seven-new-teams-huge-increase-in-donegal-league-numbers/

[Burnsie]

If there was promotion/relegation between LSL and LOI, would many of the LSL teams actually want to go up?
Would the LSL change their season to the calendar season?

First question - not many, would be my guess. Certainly not unless there were a massive overhaul of the costs and incentives involved. As pointed out elsewhere, most are Dublin based and my guess is that nearly all of them are happier being at the top of their particular tree, and wouldn't chuck that in order to become the next Salthill Devon / Cabinteely or whoever

Second question - I doubt it. There was an effort made pre-COVID (and pre-FAI nua) when it was put to the clubs and it didn't look like having anywhere near enough support

[Bucket]

Thanks for that information Burnsie

[pineapple stu]

On a similar note I guess, has there been any reports of any LSL clubs interested in joining this third tier?

(Or MSL, for anyone in the know there)

[Bucket]

Ballymun?

[Martinho II]

I think myself that there seemed to be a more of a connection with Longford Town FC amongst the locals when we were playing in Abbeycartron and more locals in the side. But I have found myself since we moved to the Strokestown Road that the old reliables that were regulars in Abbeycartron dont come out any more cos of the lack of locals in the side. For the 1st 16 yrs of our loi history we struggled to get the crowds out.

It was thanks to the hard work of SK that ppl started coming out again in their droves even the GAA heads. That was the power of Stephen Kenny and his appeal to all ppl of all diff societies. We have struggled to have a quality manager since SK. I for one feel that the crowds we got 20 years ago will never be the same again as even when we were winnin trophies under AM we didnt hit as big of gates as the GAA heads got sick of AM football.
I find with our support base that the majority of our support are scattered around Co Longford . I for one am five miles out of Longford Town. Other lads I know are the same.

To sum it up I think if we moved closer to Longford again then more people would come out but that wont change!

[EatYerGreens]

I think myself that there seemed to be a more of a connection with Longford Town FC amongst the locals when we were playing in Abbeycartron and more locals in the side. But I have found myself since we moved to the Strokestown Road that the old reliables that were regulars in Abbeycartron dont come out any more cos of the lack of locals in the side.

You hear that excuse raised at some point or other at pretty much every club outside of Dublin to be honest. And then when the said club does go down the local route again, those supporters still don't bother turning up.

Bottom line is that success brings fans out (and for a small place like Longford - success will almost certainly rely on a large helpign of outside players). Following a football team involves lots of ups and downs over time. It's just a lot easier to blame the club whenever you can't be arsed to watch them any more in a down spell than it is to just be honest about the fact that you can't be arsed going any more. Hence why you hear that excuse at so many clubs.

[Nesta99]

You hear that excuse raised at some point or other at pretty much every club outside of Dublin to be honest. And then when the said club does go down the local route again, those supporters still don't bother turning up.

Bottom line is that success brings fans out (and for a small place like Longford - success will almost certainly rely on a large helpign of outside players). Following a football team involves lots of ups and downs over time. It's just a lot easier to blame the club whenever you can't be arsed to watch them any more in a down spell than it is to just be honest about the fact that you can't be arsed going any more. Hence why you hear that excuse at so many clubs.

Aye and when Dundalk managed both success and locals in the side those same people wouldnt go as they didnt want to be seen as glory hunters...

Are there legit reasons for LSL not to align the season with LoI? apart from some inconvenience and not wanting LoI to be the standard barer. At least partial alignment with the LoI season could be managed if the old nugget of summer holidays are rolled out as a reason not to play in a summer season - we play half a seasons worth of games nearly between Feb and May.

[wonder88]

Always good to have a good few locals in any clubs team, I would say it does matter, but agree it is used as an excuse often (success matter more). One issue I have a problem with is the requirement to train locally. Many Gaa county teams have organised training sessions in Dublin over the years to facilitate players based in the capital. With the biggest share of players (of the required talent) located in the Dublin area, having training near them during the week makes financial sense.

[Nesta99]

Its a valid argument but it does seem to help a connect between players and supporters, at least superficially. Its a long while back now but one of the reasons Dundalk stopped training in Dublin for Dublin based players is that the manager at the time wasnt the most punctual or reliable and players on occasions ran the session. Funny how the players said nothing until the manager left and their contracts were up for renewal!!

[Stav]

If you are relying on the manager to build interest that is sustainable you are wasting your time. Longford have better facilities than most in the league. They are out of the town but why not run buses to help people get there. Maybe its time to try and really build interest in the club from the much bigger town just up the road. Mullingar. Its unlikely Bishopsgate will be replaced by houses so where is the money to come from if the club were to move. Longford got a lot of people into the town in the last 20 years and they are not at all Gaa players.