Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[EatYerGreens]

Tbh, I still can't get my head round whether Sevco are just the old club in a new wrapper, or a brand new entity entirely. But if it were the latter, then properly speaking they should have been wound up and a new, phoenix club required to start again right at the very bottom in eg the Glasgow & District League Division 3 (orwhatever) like eg Bury FC have had to do in England. But of course whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, there is no way the SFA would ever have countenanced that latter outcome.

Scotland's pyramid at that time stopped at League 2 - which is why Rangers were asked to start again at that level. Had it all happened a few ywars later then there would have been a deeper pyramid structure, necessitating them to start even further down.

Which I guess is the 'prolonging the pain' point.

[legendz]

You don't agree with relegation?

What a bizarre thing not to agree with


"We were here first, so we must be here forever more" is it, then? "And if need be, we will draw up the ladder behind us, in case any newcomers shouild come along to threaten us. You know, by playing better football and drawing bigger crowds."

No drawing up the ladder. The proposed third tier can expanded to a fourth tier if needed. Promotion/relegation from the First Division to the third tier. If a fourth tier is installed, promotion/relegation as well. While LoI second teams probably won't be admitted to the First Division, if the third tier expanded to a fourth tier, LoI second teams might be tested in a promotion/relegation environment.
If a club decides to join elite ranks and they qualify for an elite licence, they would transition from recreational level to elite level.

[Poor Student]

If Glasgow Rangers werent relegated 4 tiers down to the bottom of the Scottish pyramid when they reformed - they might have recovered sooner? They spent 4 years (I think?) having to play semi-pro outfits. But yes, I think going down a tier can actually help the process.


They weren't relegated. They ceased to exist and a new entity applied for the vacancy they left and were admitted to the league. RSSF probably best summarise the situation (https://www.rsssf.org/miscellaneous/kamprec.html) stating: "In 2012, Rangers were dissolved, after which a homonymous club was founded, which was admitted to the fourth league level and won its first championship in 2021; that title is not included here."

[culloty82]

That's all rather nitpicking, akin to saying Fiorentina and Napoli only have histories less than twenty years old, which technically happened when they went bust, before they were eventually able to repurchase the legal and historical rights to the continuity club. Similarly, would anyone really say that Middlesbrough are less than forty years old, as its holding company collapsed in 1986, but the football club itself escaped without consequences to its Football League status?

[EalingGreen]

Scotland's pyramid at that time stopped at League 2 - which is why Rangers were asked to start again at that level. Had it all happened a few ywars later then there would have been a deeper pyramid structure, necessitating them to start even further down.
But if they were a brand new club (unsure?), then why were they allowed membership of the Scottish league at any level?

If I were to start up a new club in Glasgow, they'd have to start in whatever league would have them, at whatever level. They certainly couldn't expect to be invited to join a Pro-/Semi-pro League like the SFL.

Which is why eg Bury had to start at the 10th(?) tier in England, likewise eg FC United of Manchester etc.

[Poor Student]

That's all rather nitpicking, akin to saying Fiorentina and Napoli only have histories less than twenty years old, which technically happened when they went bust, before they were eventually able to repurchase the legal and historical rights to the continuity club. Similarly, would anyone really say that Middlesbrough are less than forty years old, as its holding company collapsed in 1986, but the football club itself escaped without consequences to its Football League status?

I can't speak to every instance but it's very clear that Rangers were liquidated, ceased to exist and a phoenix entity had to apply for the vacant place left in the league by Rangers' liquidation.

[pineapple stu]

But if they were a brand new club (unsure?), then why were they allowed membership of the Scottish league at any level?

If I were to start up a new club in Glasgow, they'd have to start in whatever league would have them, at whatever level. They certainly couldn't expect to be invited to join a Pro-/Semi-pro League like the SFL.

Which is why eg Bury had to start at the 10th(?) tier in England, likewise eg FC United of Manchester etc.
The Scottish pyramid then ended at step 4. There was no link between it and the Highland/Lowland leagues. Any vacancies - through expansion or teams such as Clydebank folding - were filled by application.

So Rangers applied and were accepted. Seems reasonable.

Bury were also accepted at the highest league with a vacancy

[EalingGreen]

No drawing up the ladder. The proposed third tier can expanded to a fourth tier if needed. Promotion/relegation from the First Division to the third tier. If a fourth tier is installed, promotion/relegation as well. While LoI second teams probably won't be admitted to the First Division, if the third tier expanded to a fourth tier, LoI second teams might be tested in a promotion/relegation environment.
If a club decides to join elite ranks and they qualify for an elite licence, they would transition from recreational level to elite level.No offence, but that is completely arse-about-face.

The whole point about a pyramid is that there step from one level to the next should not be so steep as to be incapable of being climbed. (Ditto, the descent should not be so steep that you risk falling down)

And with your proposal to build from the top down, it means clubs forming the 3rd tier, whether they be brand new clubs (eg Sporting Fingal); existing clubs which are suddenly elevated (eg Cabinteely); or a former Youth team (eg Kerry FC), there is no guarantee they'll be able to compete even at that level, never mind go on to be an established Premier or FD club for the long haul.
And even if one or two should manage it (maybe Kerry?), there is still no regular "production line" to provide replacement clubs for those Senior clubs which may fall upon hard times.

Instead you need to build from the bottom up i.e. organise your Junior clubs into competitive local leagues and once established, take the best of them (playing standards, facilities, resources, finances, support etc) and form them into Internediate, regional leagues.

And once these are established, with standards being progessively raised on all levels, the plan should be to have full P&R from Junior to Intermediate to Senior level available to all clubs which can properly manage it, and want* it.

This has a further salutary effect on Senior clubs, who will now know that if they mismanage their affairs (dash for silverware?), they can't just go bust, walk away from as much debt as they can, and then ask to start again in the First Division (or a 3rd tier), because they know that the LOI, in desperate need of numbers, could never refuse them a place.

* - Not all will, of course.

[EalingGreen]

The Scottish pyramid then ended at step 4. There was no link between it and the Highland/Lowland leagues. Any vacancies - through expansion or teams such as Clydebank folding - were filled by application.

So Rangers applied and were accepted. Seems reasonable.

Bury were also accepted at the highest league with a vacancyMaybe you are right about Rangers, but with Bury, they had to scratch around to find a league which would accept them and opted to join the one at the highest level. There were not given any particular preference just because they were founded from the ashes of an EFL club. (Former FA Cup winner, too!)

Perhaps a better example is Newry City AFC who, though still operating from the Showgrounds, had to accept the best they could get after folding from the IL i.e. the Intermediate B Division of the Mid-Ulster Football League i.e. Junior football: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newry_City_A.F.C.

[pineapple stu]

Maybe you are right about Rangers, but with Bury, they had to scratch around to find a league which would accept them and opted to join the one at the highest level. There were not given any particular preference just because they were founded from the ashes of an EFL club. (Former FA Cup winner, too!)
I think they're all the same examples - Rangers, Bury and Newry all found the best they could get after folding. I suppose Waterford/Cork/Derry/etc all did the same here - but that was a much lesser punishment in their cases. It would be interesting to see what would happen Rangers if they were to go bust today given the Scottish pyramid is now pretty much fully integrated (own below the Highland/Lowland league even)

You mention a hypothetical new club you might form in Glasgow - they could have applied for that gap too. But they're clearly not as good an applicant as Rangers, so wouldn't expect to be accepted.

Interestingly, Rangers' punishment was worse than Airdrie (former Scottish Cup winners) when they went bust in 2002, having finished runners-up in the second tier - they were able to buy Clydebank, who had gone bust in the third tier, and so they only dropped one division. Gretna were elected to fill the other league space, having not even been playing in Scottish football before then. Gretna had actually beaten Airdrie to election, but Airdrie had a second bite of the cherry which benefitted them.

[EalingGreen]

You mention a hypothetical new club you might form in Glasgow - they could have applied for that gap too. But they're clearly not as good an applicant as Rangers, so wouldn't expect to be accepted.
"Clearly not as good an applicant as..."?

You mean, not as good as a club which for years blatantly and knowingly broke the League's rules to sign players they couldn't otherwise afford, win trophies they would never otherwise have won and so qualify for European riches which might have gone to someone else?

And then whe it all went tits up, brazenly walked away, leaving a mountain of debt to a myraid of creditors, including members of the football family and small, local businesses?

Or are you saying that there was NO other club with suitable facilities and resources etc, but with none of the above on their "charge sheet", who also would have liked to join the SFL at that time?



Interestingly, Rangers' punishment was worse than Airdrie (former Scottish Cup winners) when they went bust in 2002, having finished runners-up in the second tier - they were able to buy Clydebank, who had gone bust in the third tier, and so they only dropped one division. Gretna were elected to fill the other league space, having not even been playing in Scottish football before then. Gretna had actually beaten Airdrie to election, but Airdrie had a second bite of the cherry which benefitted them.Interesting, certainly, but even a greater "wrong" in one instance does not then make a "right" in another.

Anyhow, this is all getting away from the topic (sorry), other than that it demonstrates a major advantage of a true pyramid system in reinforcing the concept of Moral Hazard in the administration of the game.

[pineapple stu]

"Clearly not as good an applicant as..."?

You mean, not as good as a club which for years blatantly and knowingly broke the League's rules to sign players they couldn't otherwise afford, win trophies they would never otherwise have won and so qualify for European riches which might have gone to someone else?

And then whe it all went tits up, brazenly walked away, leaving a mountain of debt to a myraid of creditors, including members of the football family and small, local businesses?
Absolutely. And the subsequent decade has shown why Rangers bring more to Scottish football than your hypothetical new entity.

The application is based on the future potential, not the past transgressions.

I do agree with you though that one of the benefits of a pyramid is in helping mitigate against the sort of financial shenanigans we've seen here alright. There's a question, as pyramids grow and increasingly go from top to bottom, as to how far down the ranks a club should be dumped - would it make sense for Manchester United to be dumped down to parks football for example, if they were to go bust? Though arguably I guess that's why there's so much effort goes into saving clubs and at least getting creditors onboard with a few p in the £

[EalingGreen]

Absolutely. And the subsequent decade has shown why Rangers bring more to Scottish football than your hypothetical new entity.

The application is based on the future potential, not the past transgressions.
"Offer more" - including the possibility of them (or some other club) doing it again.

Anyhow, leave my hypothetical new club out if it, but back in those pre-pyramid days was there not eg a Cove Rangers or a Kelty Hearts waiting in the wings, the former now comfortable in the Championship, the latter in League One? On a moral, even legal, if not financial basis, surely someone like that would had a better case to be voted in to fill the vacancy (assuming Sevco is a brand new entity, that is)



I do agree with you though that one of the benefits of a pyramid is in helping mitigate against the sort of financial shenanigans we've seen here alright. There's a question, as pyramids grow and increasingly go from top to bottom, as to how far down the ranks a club should be dumped - would it make sense for Manchester United to be dumped down to parks football for example, if they were to go bust? Though arguably I guess that's why there's so much effort goes into saving clubs and at least getting creditors onboard with a few p in the £
Regarding your question, it all depends whether MU had gone into Administration, or undergone Bankruptcy. If it is the former, then a clear scale of punishment needs to be set out in advance, from financial penalties, to points deductions, to automatic relegation etc, as eg La Liga has done.

But if it is the latter, then that's it - MU will, like Monty Python's parrot, have ceased to exist. Meaning there could be no automatic re-entry even at a mid-level for any new phoenix club, even one calling itself "Manchester United 2023 FC", and playing in red and white at Old Trafford, with Erik Ten Haag as their boss. Any such club should have to start again at the bottom and work their way up, just like any other new club.

[Poor Student]

I think they're all the same examples - Rangers, Bury and Newry all found the best they could get after folding. I suppose Waterford/Cork/Derry/etc all did the same here - but that was a much lesser punishment in their cases. It would be interesting to see what would happen Rangers if they were to go bust today given the Scottish pyramid is now pretty much fully integrated (own below the Highland/Lowland league even)

You mention a hypothetical new club you might form in Glasgow - they could have applied for that gap too. But they're clearly not as good an applicant as Rangers, so wouldn't expect to be accepted.

Interestingly, Rangers' punishment was worse than Airdrie (former Scottish Cup winners) when they went bust in 2002, having finished runners-up in the second tier - they were able to buy Clydebank, who had gone bust in the third tier, and so they only dropped one division. Gretna were elected to fill the other league space, having not even been playing in Scottish football before then. Gretna had actually beaten Airdrie to election, but Airdrie had a second bite of the cherry which benefitted them.

The reason for the differing outcomes was that neither were punished. Both clubs died. In one instance Clydebank were rebranded to Airdre United (not Airdrieonians until 2013). In the other instance a new entity took the place of the dead Rangers. The basket of assets that one might argue constitute either club were not purchased from the liquidating holding company in time for the licensing deadline for the next season hence the place was entirely lost.

[pineapple stu]

"Offer more" - including the possibility of them (or some other club) doing it again.
Actually, statistically I would say Rangers would be less likely to go bankrupt than a new or a small club. It's very rare for a club of that size to go under entirely. And when you weigh that against the huge financial benefit Rangers bring to the league, then they're obviously a better option for a new club than a Highland league team or a random new club

But regardless, as I say, an application to join should be judged on future potential. The penalty for bad financial behaviour has been enacted and is now in the past.

[Poor Student]

Actually, statistically I would say Rangers would be less likely to go bankrupt than a new or a small club. It's very rare for a club of that size to go under entirely. And when you weigh that against the huge financial benefit Rangers bring to the league, then they're obviously a better option for a new club than a Highland league team or a random new club


You'd think that but they've tried to give it a good go (https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/7957766/rangers-lost-100million-since-2012-major-losses-company/). They blew a £50m share issue trying to get promoted to the top flight overpaying aged veterans and have continued overspending their entire existence funded by a cycle of director loans converted to equity and are flying very close to the sun with Financial Fair Play rules and are on UEFA's watchlist (https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/rangers/uefa-slap-rangers-on-finance-watchlist-with-18-other-clubs-how-ibrox-men-can-escape-sanctions-3829939). If you allow a new entity to masquerade as the old one then you risk recurrence of the same profligate practices rearing their ugly head again.

[pineapple stu]

Ha! Fair point. I'm assuming there's a bit of a jump between being in financial trouble (common enough sadly) and actually going under (very rare for a big club)

[legendz]

No offence, but that is completely arse-about-face.

The whole point about a pyramid is that there step from one level to the next should not be so steep as to be incapable of being climbed. (Ditto, the descent should not be so steep that you risk falling down)

And with your proposal to build from the top down, it means clubs forming the 3rd tier, whether they be brand new clubs (eg Sporting Fingal); existing clubs which are suddenly elevated (eg Cabinteely); or a former Youth team (eg Kerry FC), there is no guarantee they'll be able to compete even at that level, never mind go on to be an established Premier or FD club for the long haul.
And even if one or two should manage it (maybe Kerry?), there is still no regular "production line" to provide replacement clubs for those Senior clubs which may fall upon hard times.

Instead you need to build from the bottom up i.e. organise your Junior clubs into competitive local leagues and once established, take the best of them (playing standards, facilities, resources, finances, support etc) and form them into Internediate, regional leagues.

And once these are established, with standards being progessively raised on all levels, the plan should be to have full P&R from Junior to Intermediate to Senior level available to all clubs which can properly manage it, and want* it.

This has a further salutary effect on Senior clubs, who will now know that if they mismanage their affairs (dash for silverware?), they can't just go bust, walk away from as much debt as they can, and then ask to start again in the First Division (or a 3rd tier), because they know that the LOI, in desperate need of numbers, could never refuse them a place.

* - Not all will, of course.If CK United and Kildare join a third tier, that'll be two clubs in line for an LoI vacancy, were one to arise. There would of course be an expectation of at least a relegation/promotion playoff between the First Division and the Third Tier.
The pyramid you advocate seems more about quantity of clubs than attaining professionalism. Tralee has a population of 25000 and Kerry has a population of 150000. 150000 is a greater catchment area for professional status to be attainable. 1 club competing at elite level. Many clubs competing at recreational level.
For this reason I suggest a pyramid at elite level and a pyramid at recreational level.
With all the talk of pyramids, noone is asking for a champions cup for district league champions. Getting these clubs playing at a higher level would be a starting point.

[EalingGreen]

If CK United and Kildare..."If"


... join a third tier, that'll be two clubs in line for an LoI vacancy, were one to arise. There would of course be an expectation of at least a relegation/promotion playoff between the First Division and the Third Tier.
Who will they play in this 3rd tier? Each other? And even if you gather up another 8(?) teams from somewhere, how/when will any be capable of competing in the FD? How would those others even provide the competiton needed to make CK and Kildare able to compete eventually at FD level, never mind the PD? (Such an ambtion should be integral to every participant, even if only a small minority may ever actually achieve it).



... that'll be two clubs in line for an LoI vacancy, were one to arise. There would of course be an expectation of at least a relegation/promotion playoff between the First Division and the Third Tier.So what happens to a (semi-pro) team which gets relegated from the FD to the 3rd tier? You know, going from crowds of 500-1000, to maybe half that? Unless they come straight back up, how would eg an Athlone, Bray or Cobh manage at that level, considering how hard they're finding it in their present level?


The pyramid you advocate seems more about quantity of clubs than attaining professionalism.How many registered adult mens football clubs are there in ROI? Maybe 4k? (Pure guess!)

What a true pyramid does is organises them in a series of leagues at an appropriate level for their ability and resources. The vast majority will never attain Internediate status, never mind Senior Status, or even want it.

But given the right encouragement and set-up, there must be some who will want to go for it. However, they need to do this one step at a time (hence a pyramid), rather than suddenly being elevated to a level beyond their ability to compete (eg Monaghan or Cabo).

And so what if it takes 20 years or more for maybe 3 or 4 of these clubs to achieve genuine Senior status, on a semi-pro level at least? That is merely an argument for starting the process now, rather than avoiding the issue by magicing up some fanciful 3rd tier as a sticking plaster. We know the ROI has a growing, wealthy population of 5m which is generally interested in football, yet the game cannot exploit this to sustain competitive domestic football at all levels the way comparable countries like eg Scotland or Denmark do,


Tralee has a population of 25000 and Kerry has a population of 150000. 150000 is a greater catchment area for professional status to be attainable. 1 club competing at elite level. Many clubs competing at recreational level.
If rather smaller places like Cobh, Sligo, Ballybofey or Longford can sustain Senior clubs, then Tralee should be quite capable of it on its own, without needing to draw upon support from the rest of the County. Of course, becoming the "County team" would be nice, but unless they are consistently successful on the field, what realistic hope is there for Kerry FC to capitalise on the wider region? You will know this incomparably better than me, but it is a very widespread, rural county, with a rich GAA heritage but no great footballing tradition to speak of.

Good luck to Kerry FC, they might pull it off, but even if they should, that still only gets the LOI back to a mere 20 Senior clubs, with still no sign of a genuine supporting pyramid beneath providing for future growth.

Meanwhile, from amongst the 4k(?) established clubs already in more tradtional, urbanised, football heartlands than Kerry, there surely must be a dozen or two clubs who might aspire to Senior football some time in the future, were they only given the encouragement and structure within which to achieve it.



For this reason I suggest a pyramid at elite level and a pyramid at recreational level.
With all the talk of pyramids, noone is asking for a champions cup for district league champions. Getting these clubs playing at a higher level would be a starting point.Two pyramids when you can't establish even one? Sorry, but that is insane!

For the whole point about a genuine pyramid is that the teams at the very top will be "elite" (Senior), the clubs at the bottom will be "recreational" (Junior), while the clubs in beween will be, well, in between (Intermediate). Meaning that as individual clubs prosper or decline, as clubs tend to do over time, they will always find a level suitable to their status.

All of which should encourage an upgrade of standards both on and off the field, thereby exploiting the interest there is in football generally thoughout the country, for the betterment of the domestic game overall.

[culloty82]

It was the A Championship, imperfect though that structure was, that kept Cobh in existence at the beginning of the last decade, and when the decision was made to abolish it, both they and Tralee were then promptly frozen out of the First Division, though Ramblers then reapplied the following year, and were then accepted, so they already know the experience of falling into a third tier.

Of course Kerry could yet prove an expensive failure (though organisational naivety, as much if not more than a question of potential support, could play a role there), and some counties are unlikely to ever join the League, such as Laois, Offaly, Clare and Meath, but the next priority when it comes to new entrants would seem to lie in reviving areas that formerly had LoI clubs, and thus a support base to tap into, particularly where they have teams active at underage level, rather than saturating divisions with Leinster Senior League sides.

[EalingGreen]

...the next priority when it comes to new entrants would seem to lie in reviving areas that formerly had LoI clubs, and thus a support base to tap into, particularly where they have teams active at underage level, rather than saturating divisions with Leinster Senior League sides.Might not there be a reason why those areas no longer support (literally) LOI clubs? While I don't really see the particular relevance of under-age football to Senior, mens football, since the big professional sides will still sign up the best youngsters from the provinces should they think them good enough

Anyhow as I've noted before, the building blocks for your pyramid must lie with your clubs, not regions, counties, Provinces etc.

Of course the club base would ideally represent a wide geographical spread, but football in Ireland has never worked like that*. So that with the exception of a number of clubs in what I call "proper football towns" (eg Sligo, Ballybofey, Derry), located in areas of the country where football is otherwise isolated, the game in ROI is predominantly urban and Dublin/East Coast centred.

Therefore you should concentrate on building your pyramid first from those clubs which already are organised, thriving and ambitious, even if LSL-centric, then build outwards from a strong base to develop the game in newer, less traditional areas**.


* - I think I read somewhere that when the IFA and FAI split in 1921, there were more registered football clubs in Co.Antrim alone than the whole of Munster, at least after the British Army pulled out. While Connacht can't have had too many clubs, either.

** - The fact that eg Kerry (county) has a population of 150k is pretty irrelevant, if most of the the people there aren't greatly interested in the game, and/or are isolated and spread out etc. But if an individual town like Tralee already has a solid history in the game, then a 25k population should be enough of a base on its own to build a senior club. Similarly, if Tralee were only, say, 20 miles up the road from Dublin, the same principle should apply, regardless of how many other big clubs there are nearby.

[legendz]

Two pyramids when you can't establish even one? Sorry, but that is insane!
The League of Ireland has a blank canvas so to speak. The evidence of the Irish League is that the pyramid system is counter productive for attaining a professional league.
The LoI youth leagues learned lessons from the A Championship. New entities were welcome from non LoI areas. Allowing 3 clubs from Galway was a failure. Mervue and Salthill were elite recreational.
Kerry are fortunate to graduate from the youth leagues to First Division. CK and Kildare can graduate from youth leagues to a third tier. If a third tier can get off the ground, it can be come an established league for clubs or entities with elite ambitions.
I have not seen much ambition for district leagues offering promotion to a higher regional level. My humble suggestion is a district league champions cup. The success of that or not can determine if there is an appetite for higher regional Levels bring established.
As there is currently no promotion from district leagues to provincial leagues, the winner of the District Champions Cup could join the winners of the Munster League and Leinster League in a Regional Champions Cup.

[nigel-harps1954]

The League of Ireland has a blank canvas so to speak. The evidence of the Irish League is that the pyramid system is counter productive for attaining a professional league.

The evidence suggests, in fact, that the pyramid system introduced in the Irish League has been a massive success. I'm not sure how you can even begin to suggest otherwise.

Looking at it from a border region, it's hard not to be incredibly jealous of what they have implemented in a relatively short space of time. Clubs across the north at a junior and intermediate level actually aspire to climb the ladder, but know they cannot do so if they don't have the required facilities, so it's also seen an increase in clubs putting together better facilities at a lower level. Strabane Athletic are one such example of a club who are improving their facilities with a view to stepping into senior football in the near future.

Clubs in the south don't have that. They either go boom or bust by joining the league of Ireland as it sits and it's just too big a gamble.

The lack of joined up thinking in Irish football is the problem, and ideas like a secondary pyramid system, completely separate from the top level of football, is just beyond comprehension.

For someone who paraded a pyramid system on here for years, your tune has changed dramatically, Legendz. And I'd say, for the worse.

Irish football needs to come together, not separate further.

[EalingGreen]

The evidence suggests, in fact, that the pyramid system introduced in the Irish League has been a massive success. I'm not sure how you can even begin to suggest otherwise.
Thanks for that. I personally wouldn't go quite so far as "massive"(!), but there's no doubt that domestic football in NI would be FAR worse off without the pyramid. In essence the benefits lie in providing a safety net to avoid going bust for clubs which may go through hard times, while offering encouragement to new clubs who may wish to take their place eg Newry vs Warrenpoint, Derry vs Institute, Distillery vs Ballymacash, Portadown vs Annagh (note that all of these are outside of our traditional football heartland in Belfast).



Looking at it from a border region, it's hard not to be incredibly jealous of what they have implemented in a relatively short space of time. Clubs across the north at a junior and intermediate level actually aspire to climb the ladder, but know they cannot do so if they don't have the required facilities, so it's also seen an increase in clubs putting together better facilities at a lower level. Strabane Athletic are one such example of a club who are improving their facilities with a view to stepping into senior football in the near future.

Clubs in the south don't have that. They either go boom or bust by joining the league of Ireland as it sits and it's just too big a gamble.
Who'd have thought a place like Strabane (no offence) could support a successful, ambitiousclub? I mean, its hardly what you might call "fertile football ground", but fair play to them! (Incidentally, many border clubs like Strabane get players from across the border, esp from counties which don't have a great deal of football locally themselves (Cavan, Monaghan, South Donegal etc)

Anyhow, on this question of facilities, the IFA has progressivley sought to raise standards in this respect eg seats. terraces, changing rooms, turnstiles, floodlights, pitches, perimeter fencing etc, with the requirments rising as clubs ascend the pyramid. I heard one interesting example a couple of years back from Comber Rec. Coming from a Co.Down town of 10k people, the Rec started in 1950 as a Junior club with a hut by a field to play at. Over the years they have improved their whole set-up to Internediate level, including a shiny big Social Club which provides a lot of revenue, as well as being a real community hub for the town. And as their website says:
"The club has come a long way since the early days of the “Tin Hut” at Parkway. It has its own social club and bar, new changing facilities, dugouts, equipment store and a supporters club who give valued support both at home and away."
http://www.comber-rec.co.uk/club/history.asp

A recent IFA directive for Intermediate status included that changing rooms (players and officials separately) must be of a minimum size with a set number of showers etc, and also (I think) no more than 50 yards from the pitch. I guess this was to prevent clubs just using eg the Leisure Centre up the road, or sharing with some other club in the vicinity? Anyhow, Comber were very proud of the excellent facilities they provide, until an IFA inspection revealed that the changing rooms, in the far end of the Social Club, were actually 70 yards from the pitch!

Anyhow, I assume they got an exemption, since they're still Intermediate, but it shows what can be done.



The lack of joined up thinking in Irish football is the problem, and ideas like a secondary pyramid system, completely separate from the top level of football, is just beyond comprehension.

For someone who paraded a pyramid system on here for years, your tune has changed dramatically, Legendz. And I'd say, for the worse.

Irish football needs to come together, not separate further.Makes sense.

Though on the subject of "joined up thinking", the IFA recently devolved responsibility for the top three tiers (two Senior and Premier Intermediate) to the Northern Ireland Football League, also the NI Womens' League:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/

Curiously enough, I think this is the opposite of the situation in ROI, where the FAI have taken control of the LOI (unsure?). Anyhow, I expect they reckon that the professional game is better placed to run its own affairs, while leaving the rest of the game to the IFA.

[legendz]

The evidence suggests, in fact, that the pyramid system introduced in the Irish League has been a massive success. I'm not sure how you can even begin to suggest otherwise.
Granted it is successful at a certain level for the improvement of facilities etc. That's all well and good. It doesn't help a professional league get established however.
An elite club and many recreational clubs can coexist. I think that model using a double pyramid is the better route to take.
What's the point in recreational clubs rowing against Longford Town? An elite player can go and play for Longford Town. Just wish them well. All regions should want to give their best players the opportunity of playing at a high level.
A pyramid is very much pie in the sky when at a basic level, district league champions aren't even progressing to a champions cup.

[nigel-harps1954]

Granted it is successful at a certain level for the improvement of facilities etc. That's all well and good. It doesn't help a professional league get established however.
An elite club and many recreational clubs can coexist. I think that model using a double pyramid is the better route to take.
What's the point in recreational clubs rowing against Longford Town? An elite player can go and play for Longford Town. Just wish them well. All regions should want to give their best players the opportunity of playing at a high level.
A pyramid is very much pie in the sky when at a basic level, district league champions aren't even progressing to a champions cup.

I'm sorry, but I'm still struggling to figure out how you think, on even the most basic of levels, that further diluting the system, is anywhere close to being in the realms of a good idea?

Surely, as you say, the improvement of facilities is a major factor in any improvement of the standards of football in Ireland?

All across the country, clubs are playing in sub standard facilities, there's a massive lack of proper training facilities, with many clubs sharing the same.

Any improvement of facilities, is an improvement in professionalism immediately.

A club wins a league, they move up a division only if they meet the required standard of facility. Everyone striving to be the best they can be as a club will improve their facility to meet the requirements. That's a progression of, not only footballing standards, but off the field standards, ergo, professionalism.

Professionalism does not always equate to the amount of full time players. Professionalism is also measured in how a club, or group of clubs, carry themselves.

[EalingGreen]

Granted it is successful at a certain level for the improvement of facilities etc. That's all well and good. It doesn't help a professional league get established however.
How can you say that?

NI has two Senior divisions with 24* pro- and semi-pro teams, quite a few of them relatively new at that level, from a population of 2m. ROI has x 2 1/2 times the population and struggles to maintain 20 clubs. (I say "maintain", since unlike in NI, quite a few of those teams have gone bust in recent years, or are phoenix clubs). And by and large, the stadia in NI are better than those in ROI, at least relative to the size and status of the teams who play in them. They also more likely to be club-owned too.


An elite club and many recreational clubs can coexist.They can co-exist in a single pyramid, too, just at different levels. That is, the majority of Junior clubs do not wish/intend to acquire Intermediate status, while many Intermediate clubs do not see themselves as ever being Senior clubs. Rather, the point is that those other clubs who do harbour those ambitions have a clear pathway to tell them what they must do.


I think that model using a double pyramid is the better route to take.
What's the point in recreational clubs rowing against Longford Town? An elite player can go and play for Longford Town. Just wish them well. All regions should want to give their best players the opportunity of playing at a high level.
A pyramid is very much pie in the sky when at a basic level, district league champions aren't even progressing to a champions cup.I can't help thinking that due to the (admittedly numerous) obstacles which are presently blocking a pyramid in ROI, you''ve decided it's just too hard.

And instead you propose "An Irish solution to an Irish problem", which is essentially meaningless, almost to the extent of constituting one of those tired old Irish jokes which second rate comedians used to tell on crap British TV shows in the 1970's.


* - I say 24 IL vs 20 LOI, though without the anomaly of Derry City, it might actually be 25 and 19.

[EatYerGreens]

But if they were a brand new club (unsure?), then why were they allowed membership of the Scottish league at any level?

Bevcause the Scottish League is a member-run organisation, and that's what they voted to do.


If I were to start up a new club in Glasgow, they'd have to start in whatever league would have them, at whatever level. They certainly couldn't expect to be invited to join a Pro-/Semi-pro League like the SFL.

Which is, of course, precisely what happened. The closed-shop, member-run SFL organisation voted to accept the New Rangers, If they hadn't, the club would have had to look elsewhere. I don't know if you recall, but Rangers supporters were pretty sure at the time that they wouldn't face the ignimony of having to start in League 2. They thought they'd be voted into the Championship.


Which is why eg Bury had to start at the 10th(?) tier in England, likewise eg FC United of Manchester etc.

You're ignoring the fundamental difference that English football had a comprehensive pyramid system at that time, whereas Scopttish football didn't. I've already highlighted in a previous post that if the same thing happened to Rangers now they'd have to enter the system at a much lower level. But the Scottish pyramid stopped and started at League 2 in those days.

[EatYerGreens]

I can't speak to every instance but it's very clear that Rangers were liquidated, ceased to exist and a phoenix entity had to apply for the vacant place left in the league by Rangers' liquidation.

The vacant spot was in the SPL though - not the SFL, which is where the Continuity Rangers ended up.

[EatYerGreens]

Who'd have thought a place like Strabane (no offence) could support a successful, ambitiousclub? I mean, its hardly what you might call "fertile football ground", but fair play to them! (Incidentally, many border clubs like Strabane get players from across the border, esp from counties which don't have a great deal of football locally themselves (Cavan, Monaghan, South Donegal etc)

On what basis are you claiming that Strabane is barren soil for football ? I've family from there and can tell you that it is very much a football town. There are lots of Derry City and even Finn Harps supporters in the area. I would say that football is at the very least as big as GAA in the town, if not bigger (I don't know if we have any Strabaninals on the site who can give a more definitive view? )

You do have form for making incorrect claims on here about places and things you seem to have little genuine knowledge of, doing so based primarily on personal prejudice, and then doubling-down repeatedly on the false claims when challenged. So let's see how this one goes (grabs popcorn) :D

[EalingGreen]

Bevcause the Scottish League is a member-run organisation, and that's what they voted to do.
Thst's how they managed it technically, but morally at least, it should not have been allowed (imo).



Which is, of course, precisely what happened. The closed-shop, member-run SFL organisation voted to accept the New Rangers, If they hadn't, the club would have had to look elsewhere. I don't know if you recall, but Rangers supporters were pretty sure at the time that they wouldn't face the ignimony of having to start in League 2. They thought they'd be voted into the Championship.
True - and yet another argument for an external regulator.



You're ignoring the fundamental difference that English football had a comprehensive pyramid system at that time, whereas Scopttish football didn't. I've already highlighted in a previous post that if the same thing happened to Rangers now they'd have to enter the system at a much lower level. But the Scottish pyramid stopped and started at League 2 in those days.That would be hilarious!

[EalingGreen]

On what basis are you claiming that Strabane is barren soil for football ? I've family from there and can tell you that it is very much a football town. There are lots of Derry City and even Finn Harps supporters in the area. I would say that football is at the very least as big as GAA in the town, if not bigger (I don't know if we have any Strabaninals on the site who can give a more definitive view?The very fact that local fans go to Derry or Bsllybofey for their football fix might tell you something, no? Namely that Strabane Athletic were only formed in 2010 and play at a leisure centre. While over the river, Lifford is hardly a "name" in footballing circles in Donegal.

Compare that with eg the nearby and much smaller Castlederg, which sustains a Championship club (just about!), or Dungannon, which supports a Premiership football club despite strong competition from GAA and Rugby. Why even Enniskillen supports 6 separate football clubs, but only one GAA club and one rugby club.

Meanwhile, I note that Strabane Sigersons GAC date from 1902, and own their own ground, while the town has even had a thriving cricket club since 1883, that part of the country actually being a bit of a local strnghold for the sport.



You do have form for making incorrect claims on here about places and things you seem to have little genuine knowledge of, doing so based primarily on personal prejudice, and then doubling-down repeatedly on the false claims when challenged. So let's see how this one goes (grabs popcorn) :DWhatever...

[nigel-harps1954]

The very fact that local fans go to Derry or Bsllybofey for their football fix might tell you something, no? Namely that Strabane Athletic were only formed in 2010 and play at a leisure centre. While over the river, Lifford is hardly a "name" in footballing circles in Donegal.

Compare that with eg the nearby and much smaller Castlederg, which sustains a Championship club (just about!), or Dungannon, which supports a Premiership football club despite strong competition from GAA and Rugby. Why even Enniskillen supports 6 separate football clubs, but only one GAA club and one rugby club.

Meanwhile, I note that Strabane Sigersons GAC date from 1902, and own their own ground, while the town has even had a thriving cricket club since 1883, that part of the country actually being a bit of a local strnghold for the sport.

Whatever...

To be fair, Shay Given might argue differently about Lifford.

For a tiny town, of barely a 1,500 population, it hosts two football teams and barely scrapes together a gaelic football team.

It's had it's fair share of footballing success relative to it's size.

[EalingGreen]

To be fair, Shay Given might argue differently about Lifford.

For a tiny town, of barely a 1,500 population, it hosts two football teams and barely scrapes together a gaelic football team.

It's had it's fair share of footballing success relative to it's size.Fair enough, though Shay's Dad, also a gk, played for a time in the Fermanagh & Western League, curiously enough at the same time, and against, Roy Carroll's Dad, also a gk!

(There's an obscure bit of trivia for ya, gratis!)

[Martinho II]

In relation to an earlier pt made here, I think the reason that local recreational clubs have a bad relationship with Longford Town FC is that they know that any players they send to us will find it extremely difficult to make our first team unless its exceptional. I think that the only solution is for Longford Town to go entirely local or go for players either from the midlands,northwest , western side of Ireland. I think that the Dublin experiment is not working for us and here lies the problem!

[EatYerGreens]

True - and yet another argument for an external regulator.

Really ? What would they do ? Surely a pyramid like they have now was the appropriate solution ?

[EatYerGreens]

The very fact that local fans go to Derry or Bsllybofey for their football fix might tell you something, no? Namely that Strabane Athletic were only formed in 2010 and play at a leisure centre. While over the river, Lifford is hardly a "name" in footballing circles in Donegal.

Compare that with eg the nearby and much smaller Castlederg, which sustains a Championship club (just about!), or Dungannon, which supports a Premiership football club despite strong competition from GAA and Rugby. Why even Enniskillen supports 6 separate football clubs, but only one GAA club and one rugby club.

Meanwhile, I note that Strabane Sigersons GAC date from 1902, and own their own ground, while the town has even had a thriving cricket club since 1883, that part of the country actually being a bit of a local strnghold for the sport.

Whatever...

My God - You really are doubling down on something you've just adopted a random belief on yet again :eek:

If it helps you sleep at night by believing that people in Strabane and Lifford wouldn't recognise a football if one smacked them in the face, then knock yourself out kid. But it doesn't make that view any more accurate than the parallel universe you constructed re things like the Leinster Senior League and doggedly refused to listen to anyone else telling you otherwise.

[EalingGreen]

Really ? What would they do ? Surely a pyramid like they have now was the appropriate solution ?
In order to pass a significant change in the EPL for instance, it requires a 66% majority. In other words, the (so-called) Big Six cannot veto something which the other clubs want.

The equivalent in the SPL is that a 11-1 majority is needed. In other words, if the Old Firm don't like something, it doesn't pass.

Add to that the fact that the ineffably useless SFA (appropriate initials) are also in their pocket, and something needs to be done to shake up Scottish football, starting with Governance.

[EalingGreen]

My God - You really are doubling down on something you've just adopted a random belief on yet again :eek:

If it helps you sleep at night by believing that people in Strabane and Lifford wouldn't recognise a football if one smacked them in the face, then knock yourself out kid. But it doesn't make that view any more accurate than the parallel universe you constructed re things like the Leinster Senior League and doggedly refused to listen to anyone else telling you otherwise.You can bluster all you like, but it doesn't change my point that Strabane is hardly a "proper football town", like eg Sligo or Newry, or those other, nearer towns I mentioned.

Or perhaps you'd like to answer me this: What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?

(No hurry btw, I've got plenty of popcorn in as well...)

[legendz]

I'm sorry, but I'm still struggling to figure out how you think, on even the most basic of levels, that further diluting the system, is anywhere close to being in the realms of a good idea?

Surely, as you say, the improvement of facilities is a major factor in any improvement of the standards of football in Ireland?

All across the country, clubs are playing in sub standard facilities, there's a massive lack of proper training facilities, with many clubs sharing the same.

Any improvement of facilities, is an improvement in professionalism immediately.

A club wins a league, they move up a division only if they meet the required standard of facility. Everyone striving to be the best they can be as a club will improve their facility to meet the requirements. That's a progression of, not only footballing standards, but off the field standards, ergo, professionalism.

Professionalism does not always equate to the amount of full time players. Professionalism is also measured in how a club, or group of clubs, carry themselves.Glin in West Limerick has a population of 576. Glin Rovers are currently second in the Desmond League Premier Division. If a club doesn't see professionalism as part of their current long term realistic ambitions, let them strive to be the best at elite recreational level.
People can support Glin Rovers and Treaty United? Both can coexist? People can volunteer to help Glin Rovers and also support Treaty United?

[culloty82]

Indeed, but both could also co-exist within the same integrated pyramid:

Level 1: Premier Division
Level 2: First Division
Level 3: As Yet Unnamed, but presumably Second Division (contains CK United, Kildare, and various current intermediate teams).
Level 4: Provincial Leagues (one-tier for now, but can be expanded later - other intermediate and junior teams from Munster, Leinster, and Connacht-Ulster, respectively).
Levels 5-10/12: County Leagues as currently constituted.

As in the A Championship previously, the bottom First Division team would face a promotion/relegation play-off against the Second Division champions (if the latter acquires a First Division licence, of course), and similarly the bottom three Second Division teams (no reason you couldn't have 16 teams there) would each play-off against the three provincial champions. Of course, the progression from county through provincial to national competitions should make applications for the LoI less daunting, but clubs would still have the option at each stage of declining promotion to the next level.

[Shinkicker]

You can bluster all you like, but it doesn't change my point that Strabane is hardly a "proper football town", like eg Sligo or Newry, or those other, nearer towns I mentioned.

Or perhaps you'd like to answer me this: What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?

(No hurry btw, I've got plenty of popcorn in as well...)
I played against a strabane club in the late 90's / early 00's and I thought they were Strabane athletic. However, back then it was a 12 team league and they were no great shake and facilities were terrible. Things have improved more recently eg, you don't have to walk 200 metres from the changing rooms to the pitch. I will also admit the playing surface has greatly improved too. There were also several clubs from the Derry and surrounding area. Players at one club this year were at another the next. Chasing success. There were also clubs from Belfast, Lurgan and other areas. When we played in the Derry area, usually the games were fairly competitive But when they had to travel to Belfast, most often it was a whitewash in our favour. The players would not travel. Now its a seven team league ALL from the Derry and surrounding area and the players still chase success or the most pounds. These clubs don't normally progress in the intermediate Cup when pitted against other leagues and that's a pointer to their standard. They play winter football and the league starts in December not in August or September like most other winter leagues. Remember to play intermediate football you don't have to be good you only need to have access to the correct facilities. If Strabane are so good why don't they join another intermediate league and test their worth.

[legendz]

1st Jul 2022
The Football Association of Ireland has today confirmed that the Under 14 National League for boys born in 2009 will commence in February 2023 in line with all other underage National League competitions.
The 2023 season will see National Leagues run at U14, U15, U17 and U19 age groups for boys and U17 and U19 age groups for girls.
We have also confirmed that there will be no Under 13 National League next season and we want to see League of Ireland Academies working hand in hand with their local Schoolboy/girls’ Leagues and Clubs moving forward.

The third tier as a graduation for those from the youth leagues can be a "National League". It is the next logical step, if enough LoI second teams come on board. The youth leagues already have a good geographical spread. There is nothing stopping various current intermediate teams and various current district league teams from applying to join the youth national leagues.
If anyone is realistically looking to see where new LoI clubs are going to come from, the youth leagues are the best gauge.
The likes of Clare, Meath and Tipperary have not joined the youth leagues. Treaty are the standout option for Clare and North Tipperary. Waterford is the standout option for South Tipperary. Westmeath and Drogheda are the standout options for Meath.

[nigel-harps1954]

Glin in West Limerick has a population of 576. Glin Rovers are currently second in the Desmond League Premier Division. If a club doesn't see professionalism as part of their current long term realistic ambitions, let them strive to be the best at elite recreational level.
People can support Glin Rovers and Treaty United? Both can coexist? People can volunteer to help Glin Rovers and also support Treaty United?

If Glin Rovers want to stay where they are, that would be entirely up to them. Realistically, a club that small, from a town that small, wouldn't expect to get promoted far enough to worry anyone. They may jump up the next level to a regional division, but facilities and financial capabilities would likely prevent them from going any further. That's exactly where the pyramid would step in to prevent them from becoming another Salthill Devon.

[EalingGreen]

I played against a strabane club in the late 90's / early 00's and I thought they were Strabane athletic. However, back then it was a 12 team league and they were no great shake and facilities were terrible. Things have improved more recently eg, you don't have to walk 200 metres from the changing rooms to the pitch. I will also admit the playing surface has greatly improved too. There were also several clubs from the Derry and surrounding area. Players at one club this year were at another the next. Chasing success. There were also clubs from Belfast, Lurgan and other areas. When we played in the Derry area, usually the games were fairly competitive But when they had to travel to Belfast, most often it was a whitewash in our favour. The players would not travel. Now its a seven team league ALL from the Derry and surrounding area and the players still chase success or the most pounds. These clubs don't normally progress in the intermediate Cup when pitted against other leagues and that's a pointer to their standard. They play winter football and the league starts in December not in August or September like most other winter leagues. Remember to play intermediate football you don't have to be good you only need to have access to the correct facilities. If Strabane are so good why don't they join another intermediate league and test their worth.Thank you.

All of which reinforces my two main points, namely (a ) Strabane has never been particularly noted as a football hotbed, at least compared with eg another Nationalist border town like Newry; and (b ) that even in such an area, the NI pyramid offers the opportunity for a club like Athletic to "go for it", should they have the necessary vision and ambition that that requires.

And I might add that I have absolutely nothing against Strabane as a place, while I would be delighted if Athletic were to develop the game in another part of NI and offer an alternative to DCFC/FHFC (no offence) for football fans in the area to support.

[EatYerGreens]

In order to pass a significant change in the EPL for instance, it requires a 66% majority. In other words, the (so-called) Big Six cannot veto something which the other clubs want.

The equivalent in the SPL is that a 11-1 majority is needed. In other words, if the Old Firm don't like something, it doesn't pass.

Add to that the fact that the ineffably useless SFA (appropriate initials) are also in their pocket, and something needs to be done to shake up Scottish football, starting with Governance.

But how does all that make a regulator the answer ? Regulators - certainly in how they're used in these islands - tend to be a rather toothless paper tiger preferred by free-marketeer politicians who want to show that they're doing something about a problem/concern without actually altering the fundamentals of how that situation arose. I just don't see how one would be ntroduced in British football, nor how it would make any genuine difference if one was.

[EatYerGreens]

You can bluster all you like, but it doesn't change my point that Strabane is hardly a "proper football town", like eg Sligo or Newry, or those other, nearer towns I mentioned.

Or perhaps you'd like to answer me this: What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?

(No hurry btw, I've got plenty of popcorn in as well...)

Ahhh - see, now you've moved the goalposts (all puns ntended).

You originally said that Strabane was "not fertile ground for football". That is very different from the notion you're asserting now of it not being a 'proper football town' i.e, one where football is utterly dominant (and which you've put here in quotes, despite not mentioning the phrase in your original post).

The fact you've completely shifted your argument here is as good of an admisison as well get that your original point was wrong. Glad this pseudo-admission didn't get dragged out for as long as all the others took ;)

[EalingGreen]

Ahhh - see, now you've moved the goalposts (all puns ntended).

You originally said that Strabane was "not fertile ground for football". That is very different from the notion you're asserting now of it not being a 'proper football town' i.e, one where football is utterly dominant (and which you've put here in quotes, despite not mentioning the phrase in your original post).

The fact you've completely shifted your argument here is as good of an admisison as well get that your original point was wrong. Glad this pseudo-admission didn't get dragged out for as long as all the others took ;)The usual semantics, bluster, personalisation and disingenuity from you, I see.

But it still doesn't serve to deflect from my question, namely: "What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?"

No hurry in answering, still plenty of popcorn left...

[legendz]

If Glin Rovers want to stay where they are, that would be entirely up to them. Realistically, a club that small, from a town that small, wouldn't expect to get promoted far enough to worry anyone. They may jump up the next level to a regional division, but facilities and financial capabilities would likely prevent them from going any further. That's exactly where the pyramid would step in to prevent them from becoming another Salthill Devon.Is there an example of a club currently being denied the opportunity of joining the youth national leagues or League of Ireland?
Mullingar imported an entire squad when they sought to join the LoI. Kerry's rise to the First Division has been as a result of progress through the youth pyramid.
A mature decision was taken last year that the First Division would get by with 9 clubs. There was no sticky plaster approach. Kerry went through a sensible process in applying to join the league. Hopefully if it works out, it will have set the template going forward.
If there is ever an appetite for LoI football in Mullingar, make an application to join the youth leagues and build from there. While the Kerry League approach has suited Kerry, maybe an Athlone v Mullingar, West v East rivalry will be best for the Westmeath area and neighbouring regions.
Fanad joined the A Championship. If the want to rival Finn Harps in the LoI, let them join.

[nigel-harps1954]

Is there an example of a club currently being denied the opportunity of joining the youth national leagues or League of Ireland?
Mullingar imported an entire squad when they sought to join the LoI. Kerry's rise to the First Division has been as a result of progress through the youth pyramid.
A mature decision was taken last year that the First Division would get by with 9 clubs. There was no sticky plaster approach. Kerry went through a sensible process in applying to join the league. Hopefully if it works out, it will have set the template going forward.
If there is ever an appetite for LoI football in Mullingar, make an application to join the youth leagues and build from there. While the Kerry League approach has suited Kerry, maybe an Athlone v Mullingar, West v East rivalry will be best for the Westmeath area and neighbouring regions.
Fanad joined the A Championship. If the want to rival Finn Harps in the LoI, let them join.

You're away off an another unrelated tangent, rather than anything near the point.

There's several teams in the underage leagues that aren't affiliated to a LOI club. There are several clubs affiliated to LOI clubs that are part of the underage league.

None of that, however, makes any sort of a difference to the league structures now, or will make any difference to it in the future. Nor does any of that help to grow the league in any way beyond possibly adding another one or two teams to a closed structure league.