Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[Elfman]

*Sigh* OK EG, you've made your point. You don't feel a third tier at this point will work. Now, with all due respect, can we please move on to a less reductive discussion? :)

I'll try to take up your example of the A Championship - yes, it wasn't intended to connect the divisions: it plucked out junior & reserve teams and put them on the national stage. I'm open to correction but I believe only Fanad United and maybe Tullamore Town were coming from the provincial leagues and I don't believe Tullamore had won the LSL the year before.

So with the intent being to "connect downwards" then instead of promoting junior clubs (and I appreciate some junior clubs are better equipped than some provincial teams) a potential third tier could draw on merit from the winners & play-off winners of the provincial leagues. But understanding the details behind why the provincial winners don't want to go national is of paramount importance. Any ideas?

I see the problems, namely you're initially looking at Cork & Dublin teams while most of the other teams will be LOI reserve teams, but the hope is this might encourage Salthill, Westport, Castlebar and Mervue to form a Connacht Senior League. Maybe Nigel or Mr A can offer their view on whether this would encourage revival of the USL?

[nigel-harps1954]

There's zero chance of an USL revival. A small number of clubs ruined it for everyone else and there's no appetite to go back to it.

[Elfman]

Cheers for the insight Nigel. What would be the main attractions for a provincal Donegal club heading back to their district league - reduced travel costs and increased prestige?

[Buckett]

Is there prizemoney for Leinster/Munster Senior League?

[nigel-harps1954]

Cheers for the insight Nigel. What would be the main attractions for a provincal Donegal club heading back to their district league - reduced travel costs and increased prestige?

Clubs went back to the Donegal League and Inishowen League because they couldn't compete with clubs paying out big wages in USL.

It was left with a situation where there were only five teams left in the USL, two of which were reserve teams of Finn Harps and Derry City. Travel wasn't really an issue as the USL was effectively just a Donegal super league, plus Monaghan United for a year.

[Burnsie]

Is there prizemoney for Leinster/Munster Senior League?

you'd be lucky to get a bag of footballs

[Buckett]

you'd be lucky to get a bag of footballs

Ya, I thought so. If FAI are serious about a third tier there will have to be money on the table

[Burnsie]

And that's why, in my view, there's not a hope that it'll attract a single existing junior or intermediate club, bar maybe the odd quirky outlier. We're already two years past when it was initially due to launch, and essentially established club has expressed the slightest bit of interest.

You're asking them to sign up to a whole range expense and regulation, without any prospect of recouping the costs.

In a functioning footballing country, there would be six-figure grants to incentivise participation.

Sure the FAI can't even intervene to get an under 13 girls league going in North Dublin. How are they going to persuade 40+ adult leagues to switch to a calendar year season?

You can list off as many provincial towns as you like in this thread, but from what I've seen there's zero chance of a genuine pyramid in this country for the next generation at least.

[nigel-harps1954]

And that's why, in my view, there's not a hope that it'll attract a single existing junior or intermediate club, bar maybe the odd quirky outlier. We're already two years past when it was initially due to launch, and essentially established club has expressed the slightest bit of interest.

You're asking them to sign up to a whole range expense and regulation, without any prospect of recouping the costs.

In a functioning footballing country, there would be six-figure grants to incentivise participation.

Sure the FAI can't even intervene to get an under 13 girls league going in North Dublin. How are they going to persuade 40+ adult leagues to switch to a calendar year season?

You can list off as many provincial towns as you like in this thread, but from what I've seen there's zero chance of a genuine pyramid in this country for the next generation at least.

There's already the three former USL teams, Bonagee United, Letterkenny Rovers and Cockhill Celtic who have expressed interest in joining the third tier.

[Elfman]

Ya, I thought so. If FAI are serious about a third tier there will have to be money on the table

I agree with you on this so to play Devil's Advocate for a moment... What if we made the third tier amateur? It would help with the problem Nigel mentioned about a lack of competition due to wage disparity.

I know it doesn't fix the calendar issue as Burnsie says so I'm trying to think of other concessions, like realistic stadium criteria or regulations, that could be done before/if the calendar is ever aligned.

[Elfman]

And that's why, in my view, there's not a hope that it'll attract a single existing junior or intermediate club, bar maybe the odd quirky outlier. We're already two years past when it was initially due to launch, and essentially established club has expressed the slightest bit of interest.

You're asking them to sign up to a whole range expense and regulation, without any prospect of recouping the costs.

In a functioning footballing country, there would be six-figure grants to incentivise participation.

Sure the FAI can't even intervene to get an under 13 girls league going in North Dublin. How are they going to persuade 40+ adult leagues to switch to a calendar year season?

You can list off as many provincial towns as you like in this thread, but from what I've seen there's zero chance of a genuine pyramid in this country for the next generation at least.

Yeah, I completely agree with this and I don't see the third tier taking place anytime soon. But I'm also curious to know the size of the difference in costs & regs that we're talking about.

From what I've seen on this forum and elsewhere it's about 500k to 1m+ to run a Prem Division team and closer to 2m+ if you want to get near the title. And almost all of our Prem teams are running at a loss. If anyone has ranges for 1st division clubs, please jump in!

So I'm keen to hear folks opinions on the extra expenses/regulations involved for these senior/provincial teams in a regionalised third tier? My working theory is that if you make the environment criteria as similar as possible to the existing senior leagues, then you only have to overcome the calendar and the politics (ha! only!!). Which might mean it's a 5 figure sum instead of a 6 figure grant per team (or it could be completely naive and they'll need 7 figures).

[pineapple stu]

I agree with you on this so to play Devil's Advocate for a moment... What if we made the third tier amateur? It would help with the problem Nigel mentioned about a lack of competition due to wage disparity.

I know it doesn't fix the calendar issue as Burnsie says so I'm trying to think of other concessions, like realistic stadium criteria or regulations, that could be done before/if the calendar is ever aligned.
I'm not sure what the point of making it amateur would be. If there's top provincial sides paying wages, then you won't get them in an amateur league (or certainly you won't get their players). Does that not defeat the point?

[Elfman]

And that's why, in my view, there's not a hope that it'll attract a single existing junior or intermediate club, bar maybe the odd quirky outlier. We're already two years past when it was initially due to launch, and essentially established club has expressed the slightest bit of interest.

You're asking them to sign up to a whole range expense and regulation, without any prospect of recouping the costs.

In a functioning footballing country, there would be six-figure grants to incentivise participation.

Sure the FAI can't even intervene to get an under 13 girls league going in North Dublin. How are they going to persuade 40+ adult leagues to switch to a calendar year season?

You can list off as many provincial towns as you like in this thread, but from what I've seen there's zero chance of a genuine pyramid in this country for the next generation at least.

It's a great point about the NDSL U13 girls dispute too so I don't want to ignore it. I'll try to comment without too much of a sidetrack! But yeah, unfortunately I don't see a solution to the calendar issue without incentivisation (either through money or prestige).

I actually thought the FAI were intervening but at the club level rather than then admin level. I read they were trying to lobby other leagues like the DDSL to admit any NDSL clubs that hadn't found a new league past the registration deadline. I'm not close to it nor do I want to be seen to defend anyone involved but it unfortunately appears there are no existing governance rules for FAI affiliates (leagues or bodies) hence the FAI's apparent inability to force a resolution, although this article claims they are trying to bring in better standards:
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/girls-soccer-in-dublin-left-in-crisis-after-bitter-row-over-governance-sparks-legal-clash/a1811457442.html

Short of mediation, can the FAI force affiliate admins to manage a league if they don't want to? Genuine question because clearly the most important people here, the players, aren't being prioritised.

[Elfman]

I'm not sure what the point of making it amateur would be. If there's top provincial sides paying wages, then you won't get them in an amateur league (or certainly you won't get their players). Does that not defeat the point?

I suppose the point is to connect the pyramid. So if a senior league team with high wages can't meet realistic 3rd tier criteria around facilities, youth or staff then my question is... should they be paying such high wages in the first place? By being strictly amateur, the hope would be that you are giving encouragement to teams who already invest in those other areas because this would be the pinnacle for amateur teams (assuming each senior league has at least one!).

Granted, I still see loads of problems - I'm just trying to envision a quasi-realistic scenario where the 1st division clubs have somewhere to fall and senior clubs with ambition have somewhere to strive for.

As you say, if senior teams are already playing players decent wages (are they close to 1st division amounts?) you'll still have better players playing in the senior leagues for the money. So until there is a cash injection for 3rd tier clubs, the only way I could see it working would be for the prestige (and hopefully better facilities!).

But keen to hear your views Stu I'm loving this discussion! :good:

[Burnsie]

When Cabo started with a full amateur squad in 2016, I think I read they had budgeted for first team expenses to run to €150,000. To be honest I'd say it could be double that at this stage, and that's before you start into academy costs (which were not included in that Cabo figure because they already had an underage set-up and were keeping the two separate)

And on top of that you'll have various one-off costs to meet licencing requirements, assuming they won't just allow third-tier matches in the local astro cage

[pineapple stu]

But keen to hear your views Stu I'm loving this discussion! :good:
I don't really disagree with you on much to be honest. The calendar disconnect is huge. I get that you're trying to find ways around that and I'm not altogether convinced there is one (and I'm not sure you're convinced either!)

I don't really agree with the idea of doing things for the sake of it - creating a third tier just because we're supposed to have more layers. I think it could be counter-productive - largely for the reasons you note, and in particular what's in it for the new clubs? If you get really poor clubs coming up, does it just hamper them in terms of being completely uncompetitive from the off and being unable to build up a bit of support (as we've seen happen with other clubs before, most recently Cabo, and potentially Kerry too)

As far as I can see, the best way is to make the LSL/MSL/etc the third tier, but obviously that's not an option right now for various reasons.

I've said before on here I think the move to summer football was one of the most short-sighted the FAI have ever taken.

[nr637]

Whatever form a third tier division is envisaged by the FAI, should the number of clubs be restricted from the general Dublin area?

If its a division of say 10 maybe only 1 club and for a division of 12 a limit of 2 Dublin based clubs!

Considering the Premier Division clubs of Shels, Bohs, Pats & Shamrocks are thriving in regards to attracting great crowds while being restricted with capacities that could be improved with further Government investment, the last thing the clubs need is more based in the Dublin area. UCD have limited support, The Cabo project never really worked while the partnership thing with Bray is still questionable!

[pineapple stu]

Whatever form a third tier division is envisaged by the FAI, should the number of clubs be restricted from the general Dublin area?
No. Thurles, Newcastlewest, Kildare, Monaghan, Kilkenny, Mervue and Salthill from outside Dublin hardly drew huge crowds either.

You want the best teams you can get in it.

[nr637]

No. Thurles, Newcastlewest, Kildare, Monaghan, Kilkenny, Mervue and Salthill from outside Dublin hardly drew huge crowds either.

You want the best teams you can get in it.

I must re-affirm that I do not have an anti Dublin view on this and agree you must have the best teams you can get and if that is more Dublin based clubs, fair enough. But, you don't want to create a metropolitan type of league system either.

Is there a particular area of Dublin City or suburb that has been neglected as far as having a LOI club that could offer a good support to a new team!

[Acornvilla]

There's plenty of suburbs in Dublin that have populations double that of counties with current LOI clubs tbf. One off the top of my head, Lucan has a relatively strong club and a population almost double that of the county of Longford

[pineapple stu]

This idea of picking areas that have been neglected has been shown time and again not to work. There's no club in Cabinteely or Fingal - and look how things worked when one was simply dropped in.

Let new clubs arise naturally through a proper pyramid (which isn't going to happen for the forseeable future, and the proposed third tier is not a step in the creation of a proper pyramid, but an extension of a failed one), and accept that in all probability there isn't a new Waterford/Sligo/Pat's/whoever out there.

[LTFC]

This idea of picking areas that have been neglected has been shown time and again not to work. There's no club in Cabinteely or Fingal - and look how things worked when one was simply dropped in.

Let new clubs arise naturally through a proper pyramid (which isn't going to happen for the forseeable future, and the proposed third tier is not a step in the creation of a proper pyramid, but an extension of a failed one), and accept that in all probability there isn't a new Waterford/Sligo/Pat's/whoever out there.

With you on that. Like any league we will have small clubs and big clubs. My club had 60 years of existence before becoming a league club. 40 years now in the league and its still a struggle, but its that long period of time that inspires people to keep it going. Your not going to get that passion for an idea or concept, not for season after season.

Of the newer clubs, Wexford have established themselves, and its too soon to know re Kerry, but the list of tried and failed is far longer, be it in Dublin or elsewhere.

[legendz]

The same point again. For a professional league to viable in Ireland, there should not be a saturation of clubs in an area. A sensible enough approach has been taken on the clubs who can join the youth leagues.

[EatYerGreens]

There's plenty of suburbs in Dublin that have populations double that of counties with current LOI clubs tbf. One off the top of my head, Lucan has a relatively strong club and a population almost double that of the county of Longford

But a large proportiom of those residents are not from Dublin, and even more so not from the particular neighbourhood where they currently live. Some of those living there who are already interested in LOI will have an affinity with the clubs from where they're originally from. A sizeable chunk of others won't be living in that suburban neighbourhood permanently, so are unlikely to develop much of a local affinity with it. Etc, Etc. It's the transient nature of large cities (especially with so many forced to rent in Dublin due to the high cost of housing). The presence of a large suburban population by no means guarantees a fertile pool of potemtial support for an LOI club there.

[Acornvilla]

But a large proportiom of those residents are not from Dublin, and even more so not from the particular neighbourhood where they currently live. Some of those living there who are already interested in LOI will have an affinity with the clubs from where they're originally from. A sizeable chunk of others won't be living in that suburban neighbourhood permanently, so are unlikely to develop much of a local affinity with it. Etc, Etc. It's the transient nature of large cities (especially with so many forced to rent in Dublin due to the high cost of housing). The presence of a large suburban population by no means guarantees a fertile pool of potemtial support for an LOI club there.
I don't disagree with any of that, I just picked an area that did already have a club off the top of my head, there's always rumours of a club or two within the capital thinking about it.

[legendz]

If Premier Division clubs show solidarity with First Division clubs in allowing 15% of the UEFA solidarity payments to be shared between them, First Division clubs might not be enthusiastic about any future expansion of the First Division.

[DCSIL]

Mayo FC looking to enter the league ahead of schedule

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2024/11/04/mayo-fc-could-join-league-of-ireland-ahead-of-schedule-amidst-dundalk-fc-struggles/

[nigel-harps1954]

Mayo FC looking to enter the league ahead of schedule

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2024/11/04/mayo-fc-could-join-league-of-ireland-ahead-of-schedule-amidst-dundalk-fc-struggles/

There's really nothing in that article other than the author speculating. I would wager they were targeting the 2026 third tier regardless.

[EatYerGreens]

No. Thurles, Newcastlewest, Kildare, Monaghan, Kilkenny, Mervue and Salthill from outside Dublin hardly drew huge crowds either.

You want the best teams you can get in it.

Though likewise - neither did all the 'failed' Dublin clubs from the same era e.g. Cabinteely, St Francis, Sporting Fingal, Dublin City, St James's Gate. Despite Gate in particular beiong a team with a great LOI pedigree and support in the past.

So there isn't an issue whereby specifically 'new' clubs outside of Dublin can't draw a crowd - with the insinuation being that clubs in Dublin would/could/might. The reality instead is that new LOI clubs tend to have little or no established support when they join, no matter where they're from (even Cabinteely, which allegedly had a couple of billion people on its books as players). Probably because most football support is buitl up slowly over time at a senior level, and is often inter-generational. So if support is going to be either a yard stick for, or a stick to beat with, new entrants then we'll never accept anyone.

I suspect Kerry have been the best supported 'new' entrant we've seen since 1985?

[EatYerGreens]

There's really nothing in that article other than the author speculating. I would wager they were targeting the 2026 third tier regardless.

Agree. I think it's also lazy and unhelpful journalism for the artice to talk about clubs plural struggling in the LOI = "the financial challenges facing some of its leading clubs". It's just Dundalk, isn't it?

It then goes on to say "Should Dundalk or another club be unable to field a team" - when it is only Dundalk who are in anything like such a position as far as I'm aware?

Lazy and unhelpful journalism.

[Buckett]

Mayo would be a great addition to the League. There's already a nice little ground there to get them started, about a 10 minute walk from the train station. There's not much in terms of bars or restaurants close by though.

[nr637]

Mayo would be a great addition to the League. There's already a nice little ground there to get them started, about a 10 minute walk from the train station. There's not much in terms of bars or restaurants close by though.

What facilities has the proposed ground, is it another venue with a perimeter surround and fans only able to stand around on all four sides?

If it's Celtic Park Castlebar, the capacity is about 1,500 with a small length of terracing on the club house side and a low wall perimeter pitch surround.

[Shearer]

We do not need more underdeveloped grounds in the league.

[EalingGreen]

What facilities has the proposed ground, is it another venue with a perimeter surround and fans only able to stand around on all four sides?Stadium Nerd/Groundhopper that I am, I googled "Umbro Park" (new sponsor) and it appears to be just a pitch with one small seated stand holding maybe 300(?) and, er, that's it.

Tbf there is also quite a big complex presumably housing changing rooms, toilets, meeting rooms, catering, bar etc; also an adjacent pitch and a reasonably big car park. But those presumably were built for the benefit of the Mayo FA, without doing anything much for paying spectators actually watching the match - i.e. no terracing, cover, turnstiles(?), segregation, media etc. While there doesn't appear to be a perimeter fence, never mind wall round the playing area?

And as noted earlier, it's not too far out the road from the train station, which is on the convenient side of the town, but otherwise it's in the countryside outside Castlebar, not the town itself.
https://earth.google.com/web/search/Umbro+Park,+Lisnageeha,+County+Mayo,+Ireland/@53.84133255,-9.28766223,41.06396593a,287.61706523d,35y,0h,0t,0r/data=CiwiJgokCZPEvhRGbjRAEY_EvhRGbjTAGQZN8fhGmDZAI TZRETf73FPAQgIIAUICCABKDQj___________8BEAA



If it's Celtic Park Castlebar, the capacity is about 1,500 with a small length of terracing on the club house side and a low wall perimeter pitch surround.Different ground, apparently.

Which brings up another aspect of such new County teams like Mayo FC and Kerry FC, i.e. that they basically press the Pause button on any hopes of rising to Senior status which ambitious existing clubs like Tralee Dynamos or Castlebar Celtic may have, since these new teams will inevitably attract wider support from the county itself, at least to start with.

Which is fine if the County teams succeed and become established over the long term, but what if they don't? You'll be back to where you started, except that those pre-existing clubs will be even further away from getting a foot on the ladder, if not discouraged completely.

[cobhlad]

We do not need more underdeveloped grounds in the league.

Good thing we have plenty of clubs with highly developed grounds and stadiums waiting in the wings to join the third tier…

Beggars can’t be choosers and facilities will be minimal in the new division for at least the short term whoever gets picked.

[EalingGreen]

Beggars can’t be choosers and facilities will be minimal in the new division for at least the short term whoever gets picked.Except that these clubs will be hard pushed enough to find the money for essential operating costs alone. Meaning that if they should generate extra revenues over and above that, and it's a choice between paying extra for managers' and players' wages to keep them competitive on the field versus putting money into facilities off it, which do you think they will choose?

And assuming it's the former, what sanction will the FAI have to compel them to fix up their facilities instead? Fines? Points deductions? Expulsion from the League? As you said yourself, beggars cannot choose. So that the short term will drift into the medium term and then to the long term.

(Aside from all of which, to construct a modest and serviceable ground to modern standards, holding regular crowds of maybe 500-1,000, and occasional crowds of 1,500, realistically won't leave you with any change from €1m these days. And where are these clubs going to find that?)

[EatYerGreens]

Except that these clubs will be hard pushed enough to find the money for essential operating costs alone. Meaning that if they should generate extra revenues over and above that, and it's a choice between paying extra for managers' and players' wages to keep them competitive on the field versus putting money into facilities off it, which do you think they will choose?

And assuming it's the former, what sanction will the FAI have to compel them to fix up their facilities instead? Fines? Points deductions? Expulsion from the League? As you said yourself, beggars cannot choose. So that the short term will drift into the medium term and then to the long term.

(Aside from all of which, to construct a modest and serviceable ground to modern standards, holding regular crowds of maybe 500-1,000, and occasional crowds of 1,500, realistically won't leave you with any change from €1m these days. And where are these clubs going to find that?)

I know you're constantly talking about the need for a propoer pyramid in the LOI (which I haven't seen anyone on here say shouldn't be the aim), but you're also continually negative about the prospect of any new clubs joining the league. Even with a pyramid system, all the issues raised above would remain in place - so your argument is one for no expansion at all really.

The FAI should be engaging with government about the complete restructure of Irish football, with enabling grants for facilities as part of that. Clubs can also themselves independently bid for money from multiple sources as well. Not all is doom and gloom re the expansion of club football into new areas. It's still early days, but Kerry have shown that it is indeed possible. And the league is in a very different place now than it was even 5-10yrs ago when there was a revolving door of clubs who were probably never going to last the distance.

[Buckett]

Except that these clubs will be hard pushed enough to find the money for essential operating costs alone. Meaning that if they should generate extra revenues over and above that, and it's a choice between paying extra for managers' and players' wages to keep them competitive on the field versus putting money into facilities off it, which do you think they will choose?

And assuming it's the former, what sanction will the FAI have to compel them to fix up their facilities instead? Fines? Points deductions? Expulsion from the League? As you said yourself, beggars cannot choose. So that the short term will drift into the medium term and then to the long term.

(Aside from all of which, to construct a modest and serviceable ground to modern standards, holding regular crowds of maybe 500-1,000, and occasional crowds of 1,500, realistically won't leave you with any change from €1m these days. And where are these clubs going to find that?)

Would ya not concentrate on improving the pub league north of the border?

[EalingGreen]

I know you're constantly talking about the need for a propoer pyramid in the LOI (which I haven't seen anyone on here say shouldn't be the aim), but you're also continually negative about the prospect of any new clubs joining the league. Even with a pyramid system, all the issues raised above would remain in place - so your argument is one for no expansion at all really.I'm not arguing "for" anything, merely observing that in the rush to find a solution, any solution, the FAI here seem to be cobbling together something for the short term which will likely only mean greater problems in the medium-to-long term, rather than fewer.

I mean, what is the purpose* of this new Third Tier? It cannot be to make it easier for other existing clubs to get a foot on the ladder from below (it won't), nor can it realistically provide for the normal promotion and relegation between tiers one, two and three, since any club climbing up from the Third would most likely fail to cope in the FD, never mind the Prem, while any club getting relegated from the FD could easily go bust entirely. And as for future Tiers Four, Five and Six etc...

* - My own suspicion is that it may be something for Canham to be able to point to as an "achievement" on his CV, so that he can bugger off before it goes the way of the 'A' League? While Courell, Cooke and the rest of the FAI can say to the government (and UEFA) that at least they're doing something



The FAI should be engaging with government about the complete restructure of Irish football, with enabling grants for facilities as part of that. Clubs can also themselves independently bid for money from multiple sources as well. Not all is doom and gloom re the expansion of club football into new areas. It's still early days, but Kerry have shown that it is indeed possible.No argument from me about any of that.

But looking from the outside, this proposed new Third Tier looks to be more of a sticking plaster than the major surgery ("complete restructure") which you quite rightly point out needs to be done.




And the league is in a very different place now than it was even 5-10yrs ago when there was a revolving door of clubs who were probably never going to last the distance.In a number of ways yes, but basically only in respect of the same 18 or 20 Senior clubs who've been around for decades.

While just because the previous attempt at expansion failed (i.e. completely new clubs), and the one before that (i.e. 'A' League), doesn't automatically mean that this latest attempt must therefore succeed.

And even if I'm wrong - always very possible tbf :) - and this Third Tier does become established, I could only see it entrenching, not alleviating, the present impossibility of mobility up and down the various levels in ROI, alongside the wider opportunity for expanding the game to new areas which such latter process normally brings.

And that's before the hoary old subject of the playing Calendar, which could prove to be the final straw for progressive clubs outside the Third, causing them finally to say: "That's it, lads, there's nothing here for us at all."

[EalingGreen]

Would ya not concentrate on improving the pub league north of the border?There are, indeed, many problems with the IL set-up, but in this respect at least (Pyramid, expansion etc), we are addressing them, and reasonably successfully, too.

As are the leagues in England, Scotland and Wales, to one degree or another, in ways which the LOI is plainly struggling to adopt.

[Martinho II]

I know Castlebar Train station so that is handy if Mayo FC get in. Whether it will happen all depends on Dundalks fate I suppose!

[EalingGreen]

I know Castlebar Train station so that is handy if Mayo FC get in. Whether it will happen all depends on Dundalks fate I suppose!"If Mayo get in". Do you mean get into the FD for 2025?

For I thought the proposal was for Mayo FC to get into a new Third Tier in 2026? Which shouldn't be affected by Dundalk unless they went out of existence and needed to be replaced in the FD (by Mayo) in an emergency.

P.S. In terms of branding and identity etc, could they not have come up with a better name than plain Mayo FC? I mean, Kerry surely missed an opportunity for Kerry Kings FC (or somesuch), though I'm not sure what Mayo could attach: "Mayo God Help Us FC"?

The Kings vs the Gods has a certain ring to it! :D

[EatYerGreens]

"If Mayo get in". Do you mean get into the FD for 2025?

For I thought the proposal was for Mayo FC to get into a new Third Tier in 2026? Which shouldn't be affected by Dundalk unless they went out of existence and needed to be replaced in the FD (by Mayo) in an emergency.

P.S. In terms of branding and identity etc, could they not have come up with a better name than plain Mayo FC? I mean, Kerry surely missed an opportunity for Kerry Kings FC (or somesuch), though I'm not sure what Mayo could attach: "Mayo God Help Us FC"?

The Kings vs the Gods has a certain ring to it! :D

The Kerry Kings? 1980s America called, and woud like it's naming convention for High School sports teams back.

What's wrong with just plain old Kerry? Or Mayo? Just like Coleraine. And Larne. And Bangor. And Ards....

P.S. Surely it would have to be Cinco de Mayo FC :D

[EalingGreen]

The Kerry Kings? 1980s America called, and woud like it's naming convention for High School sports teams back.

What's wrong with just plain old Kerry? Or Mayo? Just like Coleraine. And Larne. And Bangor. And Ards....

P.S. Surely it would have to be Cinco de Mayo FC :D

The difference being that Coleraine, Larne, Bangor, Ards etc have had a century or more to establish their identity, but maybe you're right?

And if you do feel that "Kings" is too corny* etc, maybe just a simple "Kerry County FC" (or "Mayo County FC")? That is already well known football suffix, as in Derby/Stockport/Newport/Ross etc. Of course it might annoy GAA supporters, who might claim that they've got the copyright on it, but if anything that would be a plus point!

"C'mon County!"


* - With you on "Klub Kildare FC", mind - dreadful. :embarrassed:

[Buckett]

There are, indeed, many problems with the IL set-up, but in this respect at least (Pyramid, expansion etc), we are addressing them, and reasonably successfully, too.

As are the leagues in England, Scotland and Wales, to one degree or another, in ways which the LOI is plainly struggling to adopt.

That's not a big achievement. Ye have basically organised glorified junior clubs in a tiny area. There's a separate thread for the Irish league.

[legendz]

We do not need more underdeveloped grounds in the league.Fair comment. MH Park was fortunate due permitted. In fairness to everyone in the club, they put in the agreed work on lighting, pitch and main stand.


There are, indeed, many problems with the IL set-up, but in this respect at least (Pyramid, expansion etc), we are addressing them, and reasonably successfully, too.

As are the leagues in England, Scotland and Wales, to one degree or another, in ways which the LOI is plainly struggling to adopt.
The pyramid is overstated. If the goal is a vibrant professional league, what is the benefit of a saturation of clubs in an area competing against each other?
A Mayo FC can attract larger base support than two or three clubs competing against each other.
There is no one size that fits all. Another area might be different. An Athlone - Mullingar rivalry might suit the Midlands.
An elite licence requires investment. Clubs who qualify for an elite licence, which should include academy structures, should be within an elite pyramid.
The local junior district league up to regional level, if not national level, should be a junior - intermediate pyramid.
People can support and be involved with their elite club but also support and be involved with their local junior or intermediate club. Both can benefit?

[pineapple stu]

The pyramid is overstated. If the goal is a vibrant professional league, what is the benefit of a saturation of clubs in an area competing against each other?

So overstated pretty much every country in Europe operates one?

Our lack of a pyramid is what caused three Galway clubs in the First Division btw. A pyramid - promotion on merit - would have made it much harder

[Buckett]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/government-agrees-to-fund-the-fai-at-a-cost-of-6m-a-year-in-a-deal-that-comes-with-16-conditions/a612523296.html

Among the 16 conditions is a requirement for the FAI to carry out a “comprehensive review of league affiliate structures” at amateur level.
This must “include a review of grassroots league structures to deliver stable and geographically logical leagues for women, men and children”.

This is how the FAI can make the league's and club's restructure into a pyramid system; no change, no money.

[EalingGreen]

There's a separate thread for the Irish league.
Says the poster who brought the IL into this thread discussing the LOI Third Tier (#1288) :rolleyes:

[nigel-harps1954]

What facilities has the proposed ground, is it another venue with a perimeter surround and fans only able to stand around on all four sides?

If it's Celtic Park Castlebar, the capacity is about 1,500 with a small length of terracing on the club house side and a low wall perimeter pitch surround.

There is one decent seated stand in Milebush Park, a good sized car park, perimeter fencing all the way around the pitch and ample space to develop a nice ground right on the outskirts of Castlebar town.

They don't have much in the way of media gantry, turnstiles, or floodlights on their main pitch, but it wouldn't cost them an arm and a leg to bring it up to First Division standards. It's not a million miles away from being a similar kind of ground to Ferrycarrig Park in Wexford.