Darron Gibson

[Irwin3]

He had played reasonably well when he joined. I agree it's neither here nor there with regards to Gibson, I wasn't being overly serious with my little timeline thing.

I just find your stats ridiculous. United were a poorer side with Gibson in the team, of that I have no doubt. So then to use stats about PL games without defeat etc to build him up is naive to put it in a nice way. I remember one week in particular last season where United were trailing 2-0 to Blackpool in a midweek game. They took Gibson off at half time and went on to win 3-2. A few days later he started again against Southampton in the FA Cup. They were losing 1-0 after about an hour, substituted Gibson and went on to win 2-1. These two games, off the top of my head, would have contributed nicely to the number of United wins where Gibson started, but hardly indicates anything positive about his contribution when it's broken down. That's what I'm on about.

Do you remember that United started both of these games with one winger (Nani v. Blackpool, Obertan v. Southampton)? Do you remember that Gibson was basically playing LM v. Blackpool? Do you remember that both Blackpool goals were from corners? Do you remember that Gibson had Uniteds only shot on target in the 1st half v. Blackpool? Do you remember that Rooney was also subbed off?

Gibson was a squad player at United. A few minutes here and there to give other players a rest. He never lost a game in 10/11 and has a nice shiny medal for his efforts however spectacular or not they were.

The stat is PL games without defeat. It's a fun stat. It's at 27. Have fun counting.

[DeLorean]

I remember that Gibson was non existant in both games, clearly one shot on target aside! I wasn't blaming him for the goals conceded and I do indeed remember that they were from corners, something that has stuck with me because Alex Ferguson claimed that Charlie Adam was worth £10m for his corners alone, when Liverpool were trying to sign him. I don't care if Rooney was also subbed off, I don't think Rooney's progress is being monitored on here and is slightly more proven than Gibson even if he did have a bad night. I don't think he was playing as far wide as you suggest either, as Rooney/Berbatov were probably dropping deep left to make it more of a 4-5-1. I certainly don't remember him hogging the left touchline or anything like it.

Anyway, my point was that the stats are misleading as they will go down as United victories when Gibson started, even though they were in dire straits until he went off. I didn't mean to bore people with analysis of a game from a year and a half ago.

A fun stat is exactly what it is, I'm glad we can agree on something.

[paul_oshea]

Its a pity Ferguson didnt pay attention to those great stats provided earlier, if he had Gibson would still be there and have got them to a CL final.

[SkStu]

save us Tetsujin!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LT6s-Qii7wA/TPAvrArnQFI/AAAAAAAAADc/a5KWrtZh2sY/s1600/Statto.jpg

[paul_oshea]

Where did you get that picture of Joe in his Pyjamas?

[SkStu]

my phone...

[Irwin3]

I remember that Gibson was non existant in both games, clearly one shot on target aside! I wasn't blaming him for the goals conceded and I do indeed remember that they were from corners, something that has stuck with me because Alex Ferguson claimed that Charlie Adam was worth £10m for his corners alone, when Liverpool were trying to sign him. I don't care if Rooney was also subbed off, I don't think Rooney's progress is being monitored on here and is slightly more proven than Gibson even if he did have a bad night. I don't think he was playing as far wide as you suggest either, as Rooney/Berbatov were probably dropping deep left to make it more of a 4-5-1. I certainly don't remember him hogging the left touchline or anything like it.

Anyway, my point was that the stats are misleading as they will go down as United victories when Gibson started, even though they were in dire straits until he went off. I didn't mean to bore people with analysis of a game from a year and a half ago.

A fun stat is exactly what it is, I'm glad we can agree on something.

How can stats be misleading. They are what they are. No-one has put up Gibson's United victory stats or his FA Cup stats so why have you even brought that up.

You don't like Gibson. You haven't seen him play well in 3 years. You didn't think he'd even make it at a PL club. Great. Thankfully there are managers who do like him and are willing to play him.

Barring Evans and Fletcher, Gibson is the only United youth player to play 50+ games for United since the "class of '92". I wonder why SAF kept him at the club for so long.

David Moyes signed him for the 7th best team in the country. Obviously he's been fooled as Gibson has never played well in the last 3/4 years. You should get on the phone to Moyes and tell him he's made a mistake.

Stats aren't the be all and end all. They are largely fun but they objective and you can take them or leave them. Gibson is playing great. For me he is the best midfielder in the squad. Not because of his unbeaten stat, but because he is the best passer, shooter, set piece taker out of the current four by a distance. He also has the best football brain and education and probably has the best physical attributes as well.

All the snide comments from yourself and others just because you don't like a stat are baffling. No-one has said that a team should be picked on stats. The fact that he has been playing great obviously doesn't matter to some of you.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't think anyone was claiming Gibson's unbeaten streak was solely down to his own form - clearly, if he had been playing that well he'd have played in more games for United and ironically would have lost the unblemished record. But he has been vital in Everton's post-Christmas recovery this year, and the stats clearly show that the team performs better when he is in the side.

[tricky_colour]

He had played reasonably well when he joined. I agree it's neither here nor there with regards to Gibson, I wasn't being overly serious with my little timeline thing.

I just find your stats ridiculous. United were a poorer side with Gibson in the team, of that I have no doubt. So then to use stats about PL games without defeat etc to build him up is naive to put it in a nice way. I remember one week in particular last season where United were trailing 2-0 to Blackpool in a midweek game. They took Gibson off at half time and went on to win 3-2. A few days later he started again against Southampton in the FA Cup. They were losing 1-0 after about an hour, substituted Gibson and went on to win 2-1. These two games, off the top of my head, would have contributed nicely to the number of United wins where Gibson started, but hardly indicates anything positive about his contribution when it's broken down. That's what I'm on about.

I would not say stats are ridiculous, granted they can be a bit misleading at times.
Anyhow, 'just for fun' I am going to look back at some of his Man U stats and see how man u faired "with or with out him" to miss-quote U2.

We should see that Man U did better without him. ( might take me a while!!)

[tricky_colour]

2010/2011 P12 W10 D1 L1 season P38 W23 D11 L4

Bit of maths
P38 W23 D11 L4 over all
P12 W10 D01 L1 with darren
----------------
P26 W13 D10 L3 without darren

P38 W31.6 D3.6 L3.6 If darren had played all games.


So they would have won 8.6 more games drew 7.4 less games and lost 0.4 less games.

I may have made the odd error but they did massively better with darren.

However that assumes games were of equal difficulty, which they were not, he didn't play any of the
other top 4 clubs, but did play 2 of the next 2 which he won.

Even so I would still say the stats who Man U were a better team with Darren!!!!

I mean the top four only account for 8 games and it seem they pretty much
drew the lot

[Charlie Darwin]

2010/2011 P12 W10 D1 L1 season P38 W23 D11 L4

Bit of maths
P38 W23 D11 L4 over all
P12 W10 D01 L1 with darren
----------------
P26 W13 D10 L3 without darren

P38 W31.6 D3.6 L3.6 If darren had played all games.


So they would have won 8.6 more games drew 7.4 less games and lost 0.4 less games.

I may have made the odd error but they did massively better with darren.
I think using decimals was your first error.

[tricky_colour]

season 09/10

P15 W11 D2 L2 with darren

P38 W27 D4 L7 overall
--------------
P23 W16 D2 L5 without darren
--------------

P38 W28 D5 L5 Had darren played all games, that's slightly better.
The games again may have been easier but not so much as he played man city and chelsea.

Just think if Man U had kept Darren Man U would be champoins!!! :triumphant:

[tricky_colour]

I think using decimals was your first error.

Ha ha I think my first error was logging in!!

Yes unfortunately the numbers do not round easily, I could have made a better job of rounding them
but I don't have forever.

However his stats for the last two season do look pretty good.
stats are not everything but the more you have of them the harder they are to ignore, can you just be lucky in getting results?

Finally, leagues are decided on stats, not opinions!!

[Irwin3]

2010/2011 P12 W10 D1 L1 season P38 W23 D11 L4

Bit of maths
P38 W23 D11 L4 over all
P12 W10 D01 L1 with darren
----------------
P26 W13 D10 L3 without darren

P38 W31.6 D3.6 L3.6 If darren had played all games.


So they would have won 8.6 more games drew 7.4 less games and lost 0.4 less games.

I may have made the odd error but they did massively better with darren.

However that assumes games were of equal difficulty, which they were not, he didn't play any of the
other top 4 clubs, but did play 2 of the next 2 which he won.

Even so I would still say the stats who Man U were a better team with Darren!!!!

I mean the top four only account for 8 games and it seem they pretty much
drew the lot

Darron in 10/11 PL for Man UTD:

P12 W10 D2 L0

[Irwin3]

season 09/10

P15 W11 D2 L2 with darren

P38 W27 D4 L7 overall
--------------
P23 W16 D2 L5 without darren
--------------

P38 W28 D5 L5 Had darren played all games, that's slightly better.
The games again may have been easier but not so much as he played man city and chelsea.

Just think if Man U had kept Darren Man U would be champoins!!! :triumphant:

Darron in 09/10 PL for Man UTD:

P15 W11 D1 L3

[Irwin3]

Sorry tricky. Had to do it. Doesn't change too much so the sentiment of your posts remains the same.

[liamoo11]

Gibson and Mccarthy have the ability to control midfield for us for the next 3 or 4 campaigns. Think poor gibson has been treated awful badly by utd and ireland fans. There are very few better defensive midfielders in england.

[tricky_colour]

Sorry tricky. Had to do it. Doesn't change too much so the sentiment of your posts remains the same.


No problem at all!! As I said "may have made the odd error" and indeed I did, or seem to have done!! (gonna check!! :encouragement:) so it is good that someone checks because I am having to count up the games myself and counting is not my strong point!!

(checked) indeed you are right, however the overall effect cancels out some what as I put a loss for and draw and then a draw for a loss, but it makes his last season with Man U even better.

[tricky_colour]

So correcting his last season

2010/2011 P12 W10 D1 L1 season P38 W23 D11 L4

Bit of maths
P38 W23 D11 L4 over all
P12 W10 D02 L0 with darren
----------------
P26 W13 D9 L4 without darren
P12 W10 D02 L0 with darren

Now if I add in your Everton stats
P15 W9 D5 L1

we get

p27 W19 D7 L1

That's gives a points average of 2.37 per game against 2.34 for Man CIty the champions, that is pretty impressive when most of his games were with Everton!!

It is even more surprising when you consider he played against mainly top teams
with Everton or certainly tougher than average.

I think we can safely conclude he is indeed the best player in the world!!!!!

(again I could have made some errors!! :) )

[tricky_colour]

On another stats site it shows he is our second best player after James McClean

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/2935/Stages/5476/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2011-2012

However he is not on the overall list due to an error but he is on the Everton team list with a score of 6.77

http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/31

[tetsujin1979]

Gibson and Mccarthy have the ability to control midfield for us for the next 3 or 4 campaigns. Think poor gibson has been treated awful badly by utd and ireland fans. There are very few better defensive midfielders in england.
that was Gibson's problem, he is a defensive midfielder, but was being brought on as an attacking player, behind the strikers. Far better playing where he is now, between defence and midfield, passing out from defence to the forward players

[DeLorean]

How can stats be misleading. They are what they are. No-one has put up Gibson's United victory stats or his FA Cup stats so why have you even brought that up

Nit-picking. I was just giving examples of games where stats don't tell the full story (yours or otherwise). The Blackpool one is still relevant to my point as they were losing 2-0 until he went off but counts in his unbeaten run.


You don't like Gibson

Wrong. I don't rate him on what I have seen and have felt his attitude could have been better at times.


You haven't seen him play well in 3 years

Guilty! That's not to say I haven't seen some attributes or glimpses of ability. Just disappointed more often than not. The best I have seen him play was when he came on in Bari, although strangely enough I never got to see the game back afterwards.


You didn't think he'd even make it at a PL club. Great. Thankfully there are managers who do like him and are willing to play him

Indeed. And believe it or not this pleases me. I'll be as happy as anybody if he turns into a quality player for Everton and Ireland. Being proven wrong or even silly on an internet forum isn't a phobia of mine.


that was Gibson's problem, he is a defensive midfielder, but was being brought on as an attacking player, behind the strikers. Far better playing where he is now, between defence and midfield, passing out from defence to the forward players

I could definitely see him being much more suited to this role. He just hasn't played well in the games I have seen Everton play in my opinion. I am more than open to the idea that I might have just seen the wrong games.


Stats aren't the be all and end all. They are largely fun but they objective and you can take them or leave them

Liverpool have only won 2 out of the 12 PL games that Steven Gerrard has started this season. See, I can be fun too!

[Irwin3]

And there is the other side to that coin where he came on near the end of the game when the side was already losing. Such as his last PL defeat against Chelsea when he came on in the 86th minute and the team were already losing. Otherwise the unbeaten run would be extended further and Gibson would be lifting the Ballon d'Or and you would be crying into your cornflakes since you've been watching all the wrong games.

I'm not surprised by that stat at all. Steven Gerrard has been a pile of dog-poo for the last couple of years (occasionally still able to strike a ball, but hey so can David Beckham). If you think otherwise then good for you.

[paul_oshea]

Irwin3, forgetting stats and everything else, who do you see Darron Gibson as on a level par with in World Football?

Do you see him as a top class midfielder?

[DeLorean]

And there is the other side to that coin where he came on near the end of the game when the side was already losing. Such as his last PL defeat against Chelsea when he came on in the 86th minute and the team were already losing

Exactly, another stick to beat stats with. Thank you.


Otherwise the unbeaten run would be extended further and Gibson would be lifting the Ballon d'Or and you would be crying into your cornflakes since you've been watching all the wrong games.

No, I've only been watching the wrong games since he moved to Everton (seemingly). Saw the vast majority of his United no-shows.


I'm not surprised by that stat at all. Steven Gerrard has been a pile of dog-poo for the last couple of years (occasionally still able to strike a ball, but hey so can David Beckham). If you think otherwise then good for you.

I don't really, just thought it was a 'fun stat'. To be fair, I'd say their record isn't too great without him either.

[Irwin3]

Irwin3, forgetting stats and everything else, who do you see Darron Gibson as on a level par with in World Football?

Do you see him as a top class midfielder?

He's the best CM in the Irish squad by a distance.

[Irwin3]

Exactly, another stick to beat stats with. Thank you.



No, I've only been watching the wrong games since he moved to Everton (seemingly). Saw the vast majority of his United no-shows.



I don't really, just thought it was a 'fun stat'. To be fair, I'd say their record isn't too great without him either.

Stats are fun and you can take or leave them as I said earlier. However, the larger the sample the harder they are to simply ignore. You're "All stats must die" mantra is ridiculous and I would suggest you to seek medical assistance.

It becomes clear that you haven't been to the wrong games, but you simply don't rate this player for whatever reasons. Others disagree.

You were clearly trying to show that "good player has bad stat run" otherwise, why would you bring it up?


Our positions are:
Me- Gibson is the best CM in the squad. Played some great stuff for Everton, blah blah blah

You- Never seen Gibson play well in 3 years, didn't/don't think he's a PL player, blah blah blah

I'd prefer if we don't keep going round in circles. My fingers are getting tired.

[paul_oshea]

He's the best CM in the Irish squad by a distance.

Thanks but thats not the question I asked.

[DeLorean]

I don't have an all stats must die mantra and find some stats as interesting as the next guy. I just don't think the stats provided about Gibson mean anything, certainly not the ones dating back to his United days but I would take slightly more notice of the more recent Everton ones which involve a good few games I haven't seen.

You are completely 100% wrong in thinking that is why I put up the stat about Gerrard but I can see why you would think that. It was just a recent stat I had heard and wanted to be as 'fun' as you.

[paul_oshea]

If its any consolation DeLorean, and I am the authority, I would side with you on this.

Unless of course the acturial side of things comes into play with pensions and insurances and then, well, No :D

[Irwin3]

Thanks but thats not the question I asked.

I watch mostly english football and some european stuff so to try to answer your question would be absurd.

[Irwin3]

I don't have an all stats must die mantra and find some stats as interesting as the next guy. I just don't think the stats provided about Gibson mean anything, certainly not the ones dating back to his United days but I would take slightly more notice of the more recent Everton ones which involve a good few games I haven't seen.

You are completely 100% wrong in thinking that is why I put up the stat about Gerrard but I can see why you would think that. It was just a recent stat I had heard and wanted to be as 'fun' as you.

So what relevance does it have to this thread. Absolutely none. OK then.

[paul_oshea]

Your methods of deflection are truly laughable.

He is an average, or slightly above average, Premiership midfielder at best then.

I do feel though if he was given a good root up the hole he could be a serious midfielder.

[Irwin3]

I don't have an all stats must die mantra and find some stats as interesting as the next guy. I just don't think the stats provided about Gibson mean anything, certainly not the ones dating back to his United days but I would take slightly more notice of the more recent Everton ones which involve a good few games I haven't seen.

You are completely 100% wrong in thinking that is why I put up the stat about Gerrard but I can see why you would think that. It was just a recent stat I had heard and wanted to be as 'fun' as you.

The stats mean what they mean. They are a bunch of numbers describing events that have occurred. You can take from them what you like. Why do I feel as though I am repeating myself? Maybe you need to read through the thread?

[DeLorean]

So what relevance does it have to this thread. Absolutely none. OK then.

Apologies for that. I thought I was somewhere else (http://cso.ie/en/index.html)

[Irwin3]

Your methods of deflection are truly laughable.

He is an average, or slightly above average, Premiership midfielder at best then.

I do feel though if he was given a good root up the hole he could be a serious midfielder.

Ask a proper question if you want a proper answer. Accusing someone of deflection when they haven't is more of a sign of deflecting. No? If he's so average then why has he played in CL QF, SF and won LC's and played in FA Cup semi's and won a PL medal and played for the 7th best team in England.

If he's so average then what the hell does that make our other players?

[paul_oshea]

Ok, you told me you dont watch much football, so you dont have much to compare to, ill take from that you dont really know what you are talking about then.

[Irwin3]

Ok, you told me you dont watch much football, so you dont have much to compare to, ill take from that you dont really know what you are talking about then.

You're lack of comprehension is making you out to be a bit of an idiot and it is not worth bothering with you.

You: Where do you rank Gibson in world football.

Me: To answer that would be absurd since I mostly watch english and european football


YOU'RE CONCLUSION - That guy doesn't watch much football and doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'll leave you to you idiocy. Take care.

[DeLorean]

You're not half as fun as your stats

[paul_oshea]

I'll leave you to you idiocy. Take care.

Well thats not lost on me anyway!! :D

[geysir]

He is an average, or slightly above average, Premiership midfielder at best then.
That is high praise indeed, because we only have Whelan as the other regular EPL midfielder and I'd regard him as an average EPL midfielder.
Therefore by your grade of appreciation, Gibson is the best available for our squad, seeing as Andrews is not good enough to be a regular and Fahey is stuck in the championship.
In other words, Gibson is the most talented Irish player at CM in the squad. It's unusual for you to give out such a portion of praise :)

[DeLorean]

I'm pretty sure Paul was summarising how much Irwin rates Gibson, going on the limited information Irwin provided (stats aside!). It wasn't necessarily Paul's own opinion on Gibson although it might be something similar.

[paul_oshea]

That is high praise indeed, because we only have Whelan as the other regular EPL midfielder and I'd regard him as an average EPL midfielder.
Therefore by your grade of appreciation, Gibson is the best available for our squad, seeing as Andrews is not good enough to be a regular and Fahey is stuck in the championship.
In other words, Gibson is the most talented Irish player at CM in the squad. It's unusual for you to give out such a portion of praise :)

Ha, if you read , i gave my opinion as the last sentence.

I was trying to surmise Irwin3's argument based on his stats and vague points, that playing at a club who are slighlty above average in terms of PL capabalities, then Gibson is deemed to be a slightly above average midfielder.

I believe he could be a very good midfielder, which can be best described -or I can best describe- by getting a "root up the backside", moyes and trap have put it differently mind you, that a lot more can come from him.

[Irwin3]

Ha, if you read , i gave my opinion as the last sentence.

I was trying to surmise Irwin3's argument based on his stats and vague points, that playing at a club who are slighlty above average in terms of PL capabalities, then Gibson is deemed to be a slightly above average midfielder.

I believe he could be a very good midfielder, which can be best described -or I can best describe- by getting a "root up the backside", moyes and trap have put it differently mind you, that a lot more can come from him.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Go back to school and brush up on your comprehension skills.

[paul_oshea]

Welcome back Irwin3, I thought you were gone.

[Irwin3]

Welcome back Irwin3, I thought you were gone.

I will defend myself against your blatant defamatory statements.

[geysir]

Ha, if you read , i gave my opinion as the last sentence.

I was trying to surmise Irwin3's argument based on his stats and vague points, that playing at a club who are slighlty above average in terms of PL capabalities, then Gibson is deemed to be a slightly above average midfielder.

I believe he could be a very good midfielder, which can be best described -or I can best describe- by getting a "root up the backside", moyes and trap have put it differently mind you, that a lot more can come from him.

It was too good to be really true.
However it is quite astonishing that some people who regard themselves as 'knowledgeable' about all things that constitute a good player, still have a belief that a kick up the árse is an effective coaching tactic to lift a footballer's game to a 'very good' level :)

[SkStu]

I don't even remember what the argument is anymore...

All I'll say is that I (and a lot of other toffees) think Gibson has been very good for Everton since his move.

Edit: and I was not a fan of him at all before his move.

[paul_oshea]

We will see next year skstu(possibly at the Euros) like all fans, they always look for the scapegoat and the next messiah, in jelavic they certainly got one in the january transfer window.

I saw 3 or 4 games that he played in, one where he got a wicked deflection and they won 1-0, I thought he was very solid, the other 1 that stuck out was the liverpool game where i thought he was poor to be honest, and the UTD game where he didnt stand out, but he didnt seem terrible either, but I'd expect more from him.

[Olé Olé]

While I was fairly impressed with Gibson during the second half of the season, it must be kept in mind that this was his first extended run (or even run) of games for quite a while in his professional career (Antwerp or Wolves maybe). On the back of this, he's going to the Euro's, where there's a chance he'll get some game time (although this is very dependent on Whelan and Andrews getting injured or experiencing fatigue).

So, hopefully come August, we'll see more continuity again and an ability to assert his presence on games more effectively. Gibson's immediate indications were positive and Moyes stated in numerous interviews that he can improve and get some bite, I think this will occur next season. Hopefully then those who were so eager to brand him a championship footballer in this thread will finish off devouring their hats.