Darron Gibson

[Den Perry]

On the basis that Quality trumps Quantity, you can have Gibson and Wilson, as "surplus to requirements" ;)

Ealing Green - you really are a pain in the hole (imo)

[youngirish]

Ealing Geen

Most of us are well aware that Evans is a more established player at UTD than Gibson for now anyway. The best of luck to the Lad and Gibson as well. Its no mean achievment to be anywhere near the first team panel at UTD.
Hopefully Gibson will make the grade as well and from an International point of view have the honour and glory of displaying his footballing skills at that wonderful new stadium at Landsdowne RD.
I would encourage all players from wherever they are on the island of Ireland to take the opportunity to regularly display their skills at our fantastic new stadium.
It begs one to wonder do players like Jonny Evans regret his choice when he has to turn out at that shabby excuse for a stadium that is Wobbly Windsor Park

Gibson is now as established at Old Trafford as Johnny Evans had been up until a mere 3 or 4 months ago. Whatever EG likes to delude himself into believing we will have to wait and watch United closely over the next season or so to determine which of the two (if either) has a long term future at Old Trafford. Just because Evans has been around the first team squad for a few months longer than Gibson means nothing at this early stage of their respective careers.

I would also dismiss his claim that United are as strong at centre back as they are in central midfield. Outside Vidic and Ferdinand they haven't a single decent option at centre back (JOS and Wes Brown are not anywhere near top quality central defenders imo). Evans has few challengers for a place in the starting 11 if either Vidic or Ferdinand are injured, suspended or simply being rested..

For the record I have my doubts if either has a long term future at OT. Evans could easily see himself drop down the pecking order if Ferguson invests in a new central defender over the summer while Gibson will be vying for a place with Carrick, Scholes, Fletcher, Anderson and a fit again Hargreaves next season. If you doubt my assessment just remember that very few youth players have made the grade at Old Trafford in recent years, only Fletcher and O'Shea spring to mind and both are bit part players at best.

[ifk101]

Ealing Green - you really are a pain in the hole (imo)

:D

Anyways EG is just trying to put a brave face on things. Think about it.

He has been following these lads (Gibson and Wilson) since an early age expecting them at some point in the future to line out in NI's colours. And what happens? Just when it looks like there're going to make the step up to the senior squad, they decide to follow their hearts and declare for us. Whilst EG can console himself in thinking that these lads are ultimately no good, there are going to be plenty of cases further down the line where NI born players declare for us.

It's not a good time to be a NI fan and it's not going to get any better. Especially now that Gibson is starting to break into the first team at ManU.

[shakermaker1982]

centre back is his preferred position...

have you asked him? Seriously. I'd like to play centre forward but I'm better in defence. It's where your manager sees you fitting in which is important.

O'Shea isn't good enough to play centre back at a top club like Man United. Very few are. He's playing his best football this year since his debut season and that is in the full back slot. Fergie must know what his best position is?

[geysir]

I'm surprised nobody picked up on this extract from the Mail article I posted previously (which in fairness was streets ahead of Irish papers & some posters here when it comes to capitalising north and south in the Irish context).

"When I got my chance with my country, I got it with my club."

I did note this in the Mail article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1147185/In-Keanes-footsteps-Irish-gem-Gibson-Uniteds-latest-hope-tipped-Roys-boots.html)
'while at Old Trafford moves are already afoot to secure him on a new contract that would afford him equal standing to his mate Evans'

I think we just have to take the good stuff and ignore the dross.
The article also said that FIFA have closed the loophole which allowed him to play for his country.
Which puts the journalist way down on a mental par with the IFA :rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

Gibson is now as established at Old Trafford as Johnny Evans had been up until a mere 3 or 4 months ago. Whatever EG likes to delude himself into believing we will have to wait and watch United closely over the next season or so to determine which of the two (if either) has a long term future at Old Trafford. Just because Evans has been around the first team squad for a few months longer than Gibson means nothing at this early stage of their respective careers.

I would also dismiss his claim that United are as strong at centre back as they are in central midfield. Outside Vidic and Ferdinand they haven't a single decent option at centre back (JOS and Wes Brown are not anywhere near top quality central defenders imo). Evans has few challengers for a place in the starting 11 if either Vidic or Ferdinand are injured, suspended or simply being rested..

Am I missing something here? For you seem to be arguing that MU have many more quality Centre Midfielders than they have quality Centre Backs, yet Evans's place at OT is no more secure than Gibson's? Bizarre logic. :confused:



For the record I have my doubts if either has a long term future at OT. Evans could easily see himself drop down the pecking order if Ferguson invests in a new central defender over the summer while Gibson will be vying for a place with Carrick, Scholes, Fletcher, Anderson and a fit again Hargreaves next season. If you doubt my assessment just remember that very few youth players have made the grade at Old Trafford in recent years, only Fletcher and O'Shea spring to mind and both are bit part players at best.
Of course Ferguson might invest in a new CB at any time to supplant Evans, just as he might buy a new CM player to supplant Gibson.
But if MU are so short on suitable CB's as you suggest, how do you explain their selling an undoubted quality player in Pique at the beginning of the season for a relatively small sum, or the fact that MU's assault on 5 trophies this season has been based on the tightest defence English football has seen in decades?
And if Evans's place in the existing cast of CB's at OT is so precarious, how do you explain Ferguson turning down an £8m bid from Sunderland, along with Evans foregoing the guaranteed starting place in an EPL club that would have gone with it?
If Ferguson doesn't rate Evans, what was behind his recent decision to give Evans a 5 year contract on quadrupled wages?

The facts demonstrate that Gibson is presently where Evans was at the start of the 2007-08 Season i.e. scratching around for gametime with the MU First team.
When these weren't really coming, Evans's response was to go on loan again to Sunderland in Jan.2008, where the experience he gained (plus with NI) moved his career up a level.
He's now reaping the benefit of that uplift, by having established himself firmly in the matchday 18, where he starts anytime Ferdinand or Vidic is unavailable.

Whereas Gibson has seemingly decided to stay at OT and fight for a place from the fringes. Fair enough, he might make it, but whatever the odds, he's undeniably still got further to go than Evans.

(Still, his choice of international team was probably a wise one, since with four ROI caps, he's probably better off than he would had he stayed with NI...;))

[EalingGreen]

:D

Anyways EG is just trying to put a brave face on things. Think about it.

He has been following these lads since an early age expecting them at some point in the future to line out in NI's colours. And what happens? Just when it looks like there're going to make the step up to the senior squad, they decide to follow their hearts and declare for us. Whilst EG can console himself in thinking that these lads are ultimately no good, there are going to be plenty of cases further down the line where NI born players declare for us.

It's not a good time to be a NI fan and it's not going to get any better.

"Topic of discussion is Gibson" - ifk101, 25/02/2009 11.24 am

[kingdomkerry]

"Topic of discussion is Gibson" - ifk101, 25/02/2009 11.24 am

It was until you hijacked the thread to spout sh1te about the pub team up north.

[ifk101]

"Topic of discussion is Gibson" - ifk101, 25/02/2009 11.24 am

Not that you care :rolleyes:

Post edited just for you.

[youngirish]

Am I missing something here? For you seem to be arguing that MU have many more quality Centre Midfielders than they have quality Centre Backs, yet Evans's place at OT is no more secure than Gibson's? Bizarre logic. :confused:
Ah EG you are so easily confused when it comes to logic. I stated a few lines later that Ferguson could easily snap up a central defender in the summer (it all depends on how they do in the Champions League and Premiership this year imo) and if he decides to do so Evans could easily find himself sitting on the bench next season instead of clocking up game time on the pitch. It's early days for both and that's why I don't see how you can judge that Evans' position in the long term is any more secure than Gibson.


But if MU are so short on suitable CB's as you suggest, how do you explain their selling an undoubted quality player in Pique at the beginning of the season for a relatively small sum, or the fact that MU's assault on 5 trophies this season has been based on the tightest defence English football has seen in decades?
And if Evans's place in the existing cast of CB's at OT is so precarious, how do you explain Ferguson turning down an £8m bid from Sunderland, along with Evans foregoing the guaranteed starting place in an EPL club that would have gone with it?
If Ferguson doesn't rate Evans, what was behind his recent decision to give Evans a 5 year contract on quadrupled wages?

I love your points about Pique. It's typical EG. Why bother with facts when hearsay, speculation and conjecture will do just as well. Have you ever considered that maybe Pique wanted to move? Perhaps he was homesick. Maybe he didn't fancy playing second fiddle to Ferdinand and Vidic at United in the same way that Evans seems happy to do. Who knows, perhaps he thought Manchester was a sh*t place to spend his youth. The fact is that you don't know the reasons why he left and neither do I. However I doubt it was because he knew he would be behind Evans in the pecking order at Old Trafford for the whole season.

And finally how do you know it was Ferguson that turned down an 8 millioin bid from Sunderland? Was it actually confirmed they offered 8 million upfront? Perhaps it was Evans that didn't want to leave more so than Ferguson insisting he stay. Either way Ferguson's priority in the transfer window was to acquire Berbatov so maybe he was happy to let Evans stay as backup for the defence instead of him having to look for and sign a new defender in addition to trying to pry Berbatov away from Spurs. Also to back up your claim of how highly Ferguson rates Evans you mention that he quadrupled his wages. Even if this were fact (which considering your other points I'll take with a pinch of salt thank you very much) this is the sort of standard increase any player would expect when progressing from being a youth team player to a first team squad member.



(Still, his choice of international team was probably a wise one, since with four ROI caps, he's probably better off than he would had he stayed with NI...;))
We can agree on this last point as yes I'd say he is delighted he chose to get 4 caps with a team joint top of their qualifying group and with a real chance of going to the World Cup rather than settling for perhaps double the number of appearances for another team who are in reality fighting it out with San Marino for second bottom.

[Gather round]

a team joint top of their qualifying group and with a real chance of going to the World Cup...another team who are in reality fighting it out with San Marino for second bottom

I realise you're exaggerating for comic effect YI, but believe me there's very little chance of SMR getting any points in this group, let alone the eight they need to overtake us for fifth place. We may well be sh*t, but then we only needed five minutes to end the game over there as a contest.

I'm backing Trap and the boys to make the play offs, and who knows if you can take points off the Italians in Bari? On the other hand, let's not get carried away, plenty of games to go yet. If Georgia finish bottom, as looks likely on current form, you 'lose' those six points in the calculation to eliminate one of the runners-up from the play off.

Sorry to go off-topic.

[ifk101]

I realise you're exaggerating for comic effect YI, but believe me there's very little chance of SMR getting any points in this group, let alone the eight they need to overtake us for fifth place. We may well be sh*t, but then we only needed five minutes to end the game over there as a contest.

I'm backing Trap and the boys to make the play offs, and who knows if you can take points off the Italians in Bari? On the other hand, let's not get carried away, plenty of games to go yet. If Georgia finish bottom, as looks likely on current form, you 'lose' those six points in the calculation to eliminate one of the runners-up from the play off.

Sorry to go off-topic.

This goes back to EG's assertion that Gibson would struggle to get a game with NI. If Gibson can be capped with a team that's higher ranked than NI (and by some margin as well), we can assume that Gibson would easily get his game with NI, right?

No says EG because unknown to the international football world, NI has 3 or 4 and possibly 5 central midfielders that are much more than the typical journeymen of the lower British leagues that their various club situations would suggest. With these superstars in their midst, you'd expect NI to be winning World Cups and what not. But no - NI are only capable of beating San Marino and Nigel Worthlesston's competitive record is worst than Stan's.

Whilst Gibson is no world-beater, he'd walk into NI's team. Suggesting otherwise strikes of bitterness on EG's part that Gibson chose to play with Ireland ahead of NI. To ease the pain, EG asserts that Jonny Evans is better than some chap called Pique :confused:

[Gather round]

1fk- whatever. As I mentioned above, I've no bitterness about Gibson choosing not to play for us, and agree he'd have got more caps in our squad. That said, being a ManU fringe player wouldn't necessarily guarantee a start as you suggest- Chris 'sleeping' Brunt-y has lost out to people at a lower club level (Lafferty, McCann) basically because Worthington seems to agree with the fans that CB's an idle bugger :)

[DeLorean]

If Gibson can be capped with a team that's higher ranked than NI (and by some margin as well), we can assume that Gibson would easily get his game with NI, right?

Wrong, because it has since emerged that he shouldn't have got capped with ROI (not in an important qualifier anyway) and this was rectified for our most recent match.

[ifk101]

1fk- whatever. As I mentioned above, I've no bitterness about Gibson choosing not to play for us, and agree he'd have got more caps in our squad. That said, being a ManU fringe player wouldn't necessarily guarantee a start as you suggest- Chris 'sleeping' Brunt-y has lost out to people at a lower club level (Lafferty, McCann) basically because Worthington seems to agree with the fans that CB's an idle bugger :)

Fair enough.

But anyways despite Gibson chosing us, the good news from a NI perspective is that Jeff Whitley is on the come back trail. So it's not all bad.

[tetsujin1979]

Fair enough.

But anyways despite Gibson chosing us, the good news from a NI perspective is that Jeff Whitley is on the come back trail. So it's not all bad.
That's a bit of a low blow... http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1096325_city_star_turns_life_around&t=City%20star%20turns%20life%20around

[osarusan]

If Gibson can be capped with a team that's higher ranked than NI (and by some margin as well), we can assume that Gibson would easily get his game with NI, right?

That's terribly flawed thinking really.

[Colbert Report]

That's terribly flawed thinking really.

I don't know about that, you'd have to think that Brazil's sixth or seventh rated central midfielder would have no trouble getting into most nation's first team.

[John83]

I don't know about that, you'd have to think that Brazil's sixth or seventh rated central midfielder would have no trouble getting into most nation's first team.
That's pretty much where Portugal found Deco.

It's hardly an exact science though. I don't doubt there are better teams than ours with inferior goalkeepers to Given, for example.

[EalingGreen]

Ah EG you are so easily confused when it comes to logic.
Hmmm, let's see what the "logic" there is in the following...

I stated a few lines later that Ferguson could easily snap up a central defender in the summer (it all depends on how they do in the Champions League and Premiership this year imo) and if he decides to do so Evans could easily find himself sitting on the bench next season instead of clocking up game time on the pitch. It's early days for both and that's why I don't see how you can judge that Evans' position in the long term is any more secure than Gibson.

Right, so "Ferguson could blah, blah, blah". Which one would that be of the "hearsay, conjecture and speculation" you accuse me of?
The fact and the logic is, that having sold one quality young CB (Pique) in the Summer, Ferguson could have bought a replacement, but didn't. Moreover, his defence this season has proved tighter than a duck's arse, which hardly suggests he needs extra CB cover.
Besides, your "logic" dictates that Ferguson could just as easily sign an established Centre Midfielder next Summer, thereby putting more pressure on Gibson's place.



I love your points about Pique. It's typical EG. Why bother with facts when hearsay, speculation and conjecture will do just as well. Have you ever considered that maybe Pique wanted to move? Perhaps he was homesick. Maybe he didn't fancy playing second fiddle to Ferdinand and Vidic at United in the same way that Evans seems happy to do. Who knows, perhaps he thought Manchester was a sh*t place to spend his youth. The fact is that you don't know the reasons why he left and neither do I. However I doubt it was because he knew he would be behind Evans in the pecking order at Old Trafford for the whole season.

And finally how do you know it was Ferguson that turned down an 8 millioin bid from Sunderland? Was it actually confirmed they offered 8 million upfront? Perhaps it was Evans that didn't want to leave more so than Ferguson insisting he stay. Either way Ferguson's priority in the transfer window was to acquire Berbatov so maybe he was happy to let Evans stay as backup for the defence instead of him having to look for and sign a new defender in addition to trying to pry Berbatov away from Spurs.

A number of scenarios are possible, for instance that Pique was determined to go, and Evans was determined to stay. Or that the issue of Berbatov had no relevance whatever to MU's defensive needs...
One thing is indisputable, however. Namely, having lost one undeniably talented CB in Pique, we must assume Ferguson was happy enough with his remaining cover at CB, since he didn't attempt to sign another CB to replace him.
Moreover, events this season indicate that that pre-season judgement was correct. And part of that judgement is that Evans will be his "go-to" CB, should either of (the world-class) Vidic or Ferdinand be unavailable. This despite the fact he has seasoned international CB's in Brown or O'Shea available, or even the vastly experienced Neville, who has filled in at CB on occasion.

Which may explain why when MU were facing their biggest match of the season to date in the San Siro, in the absence of one CB (Vidic), Evans spent the entire 90 minutes on the pitch, despite his carrying an injury.
Whereas in the absence of one CM player (Hargreaves), Gibson spent the entire 90 minutes on the bench.
Furthermore, had MU suffered another injury in CM to Carrick or Fletcher, do you think Gibson would have been brought on, ahead of Scholes or Nani? I doubt it, somehow, myself.



We can agree on this last point as yes I'd say he is delighted he chose to get 4 caps with a team joint top of their qualifying group and with a real chance of going to the World Cup rather than settling for perhaps double the number of appearances for another team who are in reality fighting it out with San Marino for second bottom.
I'll lay you 1000/1 that NI finish above San Marino in the Group. You can keep the winnings if they don't, your stake will go to your named charity if they do.
P.S. Should you want to put your money where your mouth is, I'm quite prepared to lay big money...;)

[osarusan]

I don't know about that, you'd have to think that Brazil's sixth or seventh rated central midfielder would have no trouble getting into most nation's first team.
That may be true, but I was disagreeing with this assumption -

If Gibson can be capped with a team that's higher ranked than NI (and by some margin as well), we can assume that Gibson would easily get his game with NI, right?

It is based on the idea that every player in a team is of the same standard as the standard of their team, and every player in a higher-ranked team will be equally more highly-skilled.

By that logic, considering their respective world rankings, Ian Dowie would have replaced George Weah as Liberia's striker.
Or, a less extreme comparison, England (ranked higher than us) would have a better keeper than ours, whereas I doubt very many of our fans would sacrifice Given for any current English keeper.

EDIT - As John83 has argued also.

It's hardly an exact science though. I don't doubt there are better teams than ours with inferior goalkeepers to Given, for example.

[ifk101]

That may be true, but I was disagreeing with this assumption -

It is based on the idea that every player in a team is of the same standard as the standard of their team, and every player in a higher-ranked team will be equally more highly-skilled.

By that logic, considering their respective world rankings, Ian Dowie would have replaced George Weah as Liberia's striker.

Or, a less startling comparison, England (ranked higher than us) would have a better keeper than ours, whereas I doubt very many of our fans would sacrifice Given for any current English keeper.

Yes I agree with what you are saying and any assessment of a particular player's ability is determined by a countless number of factors. But as a benchmark it is as good as any, although there obviously will be a number of clear cut exceptions.

[Uncle_Joe]

Evans is there as cover for Vidic or Ferdinand. He will play when one of them is injured, suspended or rested. Centre backs dont tend to be substituted for tactical reasons. So Evans is destined to walk the same path as John O'Shea and hover around the 20-30 games a season mark.
He is still a quality player but I cant see him dislodging vidic/ferdinand.

Same goes for Gibson but he has more competition I.M.O. I dont see either of them becoming part of the first team 11.

anybody else remember O'Sheas first season. The guy looked world class, and now he seems to have settled into his role as a decent player.

[EalingGreen]

This goes back to EG's assertion that Gibson would struggle to get a game with NI.
No, what I said was that Gibson would be in contention for a place in NI's CM, but only if two of Davis, Clingan or Johnson were unavailable. I've not checked, but I'm pretty sure that has only happened once or twice at most, since Gibson got the first of his four caps for the ROI.
Btw, do you think that that trio are somehow inferior to Whelan and Andrews, the two CM players who kept Gibson out of the ROI team v Georgia?

If Gibson can be capped with a team that's higher ranked than NI (and by some margin as well), we can assume that Gibson would easily get his game with NI, right?

Utter tosh.
When e.g. ROI were flying high in the Rankings in the mid 1990's and Liberia weren't even in the top 100, are you really suggesting therefore that Liberia's No.9 George Weah wasn't a better player than ROI No.9, Tony Cascarino? Cascarino was barely more Irish than Weah, never mind more accomplished...
Or to take it to the present day, are you saying that if Kevin Kilbane were from NI, he's get into our team ahead of George McCartney at LB?
Besides, iirc, NI were ahead of ROI in the Rankings when Gibson made his international debut.



No says EG because unknown to the international football world, NI has 3 or 4 and possibly 5 central midfielders that are much more than the typical journeymen of the lower British leagues that their various club situations would suggest.
I don't know why you continually misrepresent me, since you are only exposing your lack of integrity and/or basic intelligence.
I have never claimed that NI's present CM players are "superstars" etc. All I am saying is that at least three of them are more accomplished than Gibson, so that it would take at least two to be unavailable for Gibson to come into contention for a CM place.
I base that judgement on their respective records i.e. between them, the NI trio have literally hundreds of appearances at EPL, SPL or Championship level, plus 100 caps. Whereas Gibson made 20-odd appearances in the Championship and has yet to make a start (I think) in the EPL. (I don't consider Gibson's 30-odd appearances in the Belgian 2nd Division to be worthy of consideration in this respect)
Moreover, a credible judge like Trapattoni doesn't rate Gibson yet good enough to start competitive internationals, ahead of the likes of Whelan and Andrews, neither of whose record is any better than their NI counterparts imo.



With these superstars in their midst, you'd expect NI to be winning World Cups and what not.
Just as you'd expect e.g. ROI to be "winning World Cups and what not" when they could call upon genuinely World class players like Johnny Giles* and Liam Brady, for instance.

* - Remind me again, how many games was it ROI went without a single win when Giles was captaining them in the late 60's/early 70's? Twenty was it?



But no - NI are only capable of beating San Marino and Nigel Worthlesston's competitive record is worst than Stan's.

Irrelevant and disingenuous - well done!




Whilst Gibson is no world-beater, he'd walk into NI's team.
If you were picking it, maybe. Or Staunton perhaps.



Suggesting otherwise strikes of bitterness on EG's part that Gibson chose to play with Ireland ahead of NI.
In the end, I only want players who want to play for us. If Gibson prefers not to, that's up to him. Whether he should subsequently be entitled to play for another team is a separate matter.


To ease the pain, EG asserts that Jonny Evans is better than some chap called Pique :confused:
Wrong again. In assessing Gibson's suitability for international football (ROI or NI), I drew a comparison with Evans, since their background, circumstances and club career etc are so similar. I concluded that Evans is ready for international duty, whereas Gibson is not yet (other than in an injury crisis etc).
And my essential reasoning for this is that Ferguson clearly trusts Evans in big games for MU, whereas he does not yet trust Gibson the same way.
Pique only came into the argument as evidence of just how much Ferguson rates Evans, when he was prepared to let an undoubtedly class act like Pique leave OT, but not Evans.
Time will tell whether Pique turns out to be a better player than Evans, who knows? All I would say is that as of February 2008, both of them look as though they will go further in the game than Gibson.
Consequently, if I could only choose one of them for NI, it would be Evans first, Pique a close second and Gibson some way behind in third.
Pretty painless, really. ;)

[youngirish]

That may be true, but I was disagreeing with this assumption -

It is based on the idea that every player in a team is of the same standard as the standard of their team, and every player in a higher-ranked team will be equally more highly-skilled.

By that logic, considering their respective world rankings, Ian Dowie would have replaced George Weah as Liberia's striker.
Or, a less extreme comparison, England (ranked higher than us) would have a better keeper than ours, whereas I doubt very many of our fans would sacrifice Given for any current English keeper.

EDIT - As John83 has argued also.
This argument is all very well and has been very informative but you seem to be missing the main point in the previous posts, Northern Ireland do not have better central midfield players than the ROI by any stretch of the imagination. Only Davis would get into our squad and he wouldn't even start under Trap as he's not the type of midfield player our manager looks for (indeed A Reid is a better alternative and he can't even get into the squad).

NI's other alternatives in Central Midfield, namely Johnson and Clingan are undeniably poorer than Andrews, Gibson and Whelan at present (and Stephen Reid, Andy Reid, Garvan and McCann if we really want to stick the boot in). Fahey gets into the Birmingham team ahead of Johnson so to claim he is a better option in midfield than we have available is just not true.

Let's put things into perspective here, Gibson has made more than twice as many appearances for United this season as Johnson has made for Birmingham so the statement that such a player would keep Gibson out of the NI team shows the insanity that's spouted as gospel by some north of the border.

[ifk101]

Your opinion is biased/coloured or whatever you want to called it when its comes to all matters NI, EG.

I'm attempting to remove the subjectivity involved in making comparisons between players whilst you keep on insisting that you know best.

And once again, why do you keeping going on about Jonny Evans? :confused:

[Gather round]

the insanity that's spouted as gospel by some north of the border

Hey, steady on. You're the one suggesting that San Marino are going to get eight points in these qualifiers :)


Your opinion is biased/coloured or whatever you want to called it when its comes to all matters NI, EG
Er, so is yours- even if it's just a wind-up rather than what you really think?

[ifk101]

Er, so is yours- even if it's just a wind-up rather than what you really think?

Yes my opinion is also biased - hence the need to find a benchmark that removes the bias in the various posters' opinions. The FIFA rankings show that despite NI supposedly having an accomplished set of midfielders, their results under Worthlesston don't reflect this. NI obviously lack the guile and quality in midfield required to be successful at international level that perhaps a midfielder from a higher ranked team could provide.

If the results aren't good enough it's either the players aren't good enough, the coaching isn't good enough or a combination of both. I think it's a combination of both and hence why I believe that Gibson would walk into the NI team as he provides a certain level of quality in midfield that's currently missing. But that's my opinion and it's not shared by EG.

[EalingGreen]

This argument is all very well and has been very informative but you seem to be missing the main point in the previous posts, Northern Ireland do not have better central midfield players than the ROI by any stretch of the imagination. Only Davis would get into out squad and he wouldn't even start under Trap as he's not the type of midfield player our manager looks for (indeed A Reid is a better alternative and he can't even get into the squad).

NI's other alternatives in Central Midfield, namely Johnson and Clingan are undeniably poorer than Andrews, Gibson and Whelan at present (and Stephen Reid, Andy Reid, Garvan and McCann if we really want to stick the boot in). Fahey gets into the Birmingham team ahead of Johnson so to claim he is a better option in midfield than we have available is just not true.


Utter nonsense, even by your standards.

The debate has NOT been about whether the ROI's midfield is better than NI's, it's about whether Gibson would get into the NI team.

And I have clearly stated, with evidence and statistics etc, why I don't think he would, other than when we had injury problems.

[Oh and btw, Birmingham Club Captain Johnson is just coming back from injury, having missed almost all of the season. When he's fully fit again, I suspect he'll add to his record of having appeared more times for Birmingham than any current player on their books. Whereas with the grand total of 6 senior appearances to date, I'd say Fahey still has a bit of catching up to do...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damien_Johnson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Fahey ]



Let's put things into perspective here, Gibson has made more than twice as many appearances for United this season as Johnson has made for Birmingham so the statement that such a player would keep Gibson out of the NI team shows the insanity that's spouted as gospel by some north of the border.
As indicated above, your Gibson vs Johnson comparison for the season to date betrays your ignorance.
As for "insanity", have you decided whether or not to stake all of your dinner money on San Marino finishing ahead of NI, or are you keeping some of it back for a Milky Bar from the Tuckshop?

[republicofwhite]

Could you imagine the sound of EalingGreen's voice? Shudder...

[EalingGreen]

Your opinion is biased/coloured or whatever you want to called it when its comes to all matters NI, EG.

Of course my opinion is "biased/coloured or whatever". Isn't yours?


I'm attempting to remove the subjectivity involved in making comparisons between players whilst you keep on insisting that you know best.

Oh right. And there's me thinking you were actually avoiding responding to my detailed rebuttal of your last post on the matter...:rolleyes:


And once again, why do you keeping going on about Jonny Evans? :confused:
See post #428

[co. down green]

Same goes for Gibson but he has more competition I.M.O..

The Man United midfield is obviously the area with most competition for places, as Ferguson (http://www.setanta.com/uk/Articles/Football/2009/02/26/Prem-Ferguson-on-Anderson/gnid-41983/) acknowledges.

"The young ones who have played in the League Cup will play in it," said Ferguson. "I'm not changing my mind on that one.

"The middle of midfield is my biggest problem. I've got more options there than anywhere else.

"I've got Anderson, Darren Fletcher, Michael Carrick and young Darron Gibson who is coming on in leaps and bounds. It gives me headaches, but more options."[/I]

[ifk101]

Of course my opinion is "biased/coloured or whatever". Isn't yours?

See post #432


Oh right. And there's me thinking you were actually avoiding responding to my detailed rebuttal of your last post on the matter...:rolleyes:

See post #430 and #432


See post #428


The debate has NOT been about whether the ROI's midfield is better than NI's, it's about whether Gibson would get into the NI team.

;)

[Brendan 82]

as Ferguson (http://www.setanta.com/uk/Articles/Football/2009/02/26/Prem-Ferguson-on-Anderson/gnid-41983/) acknowledges.

"The middle of midfield is my biggest problem. I've got more options there than anywhere else.

"I've got Anderson, Darren Fletcher, Michael Carrick and young Darron Gibson who is coming on in leaps and bounds. It gives me headaches, but more options."[/i]

I think this is the point. Ferguson sees the trajectory and potential of this player increasing exponentially. Much like Steven Ireland did.

[Gather round]

Yes my opinion is also biased - hence the need to find a benchmark that removes the bias in the various posters' opinions. The FIFA rankings show that despite NI supposedly having an accomplished set of midfielders, their results under Worthlesston don't reflect this. NI obviously lack the guile and quality in midfield required to be successful at international level that perhaps a midfielder from a higher ranked team could provide.


Best benchmark is results over a whole competition, as I said. We were above expectation last time, below so far this- although I think we should reserve judgement until halfway (ie after the March/ April double-header).

Point taken about the lack of guile- clearly neither side has much of it at the moment, although our plan B seemed to work against Spain and Sweden last time?


Could you imagine the sound of EalingGreen's voice? Shudder...

He sounds fairly similar to me and (I guess) Co Down Green. What do you sound like, while we're at it?

[EalingGreen]

The FIFA rankings show that despite NI supposedly having an accomplished set of midfielders, their results under Worthlesston don't reflect this. NI obviously lack the guile and quality in midfield required to be successful at international level that perhaps a midfielder from a higher ranked team could provide.

More tosh.
For even if you accept the Rankings as being completely authoritative (somewhat questionable imo), those rankings are a reflection of a team of XI players, not that of the players in two CM positions.
For example, in Gerrard and Lampard, England have two of the best CM players in the world. But there are several teams with inferior players in that position who are better overall than England.


If the results aren't good enough it's either the players aren't good enough, the coaching isn't good enough or a combination of both. I think it's a combination of both and hence why I believe that Gibson would walk into the NI team as he provides a certain level of quality in midfield that's currently missing. But that's my opinion and it's not shared by EG.
Jeez, if it was a competition to see who can most spectacularly miss the point often enough, you'd be 3rd in the Rankings, only behind Young Irish and Kingdom Kerry!
Two or three years ago, NI were way above ROI in the Rankings and flying high, with victories over the likes of England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark under their belt.
Since then, there have been a number of changes which have seen us slip down, most notably a change of manager and a slump in form and fitness of by far our most influential player, Healy.
But one of the few constants remaining is that our four first choice Central Midfielders then were Johnson, Davis, Clingan and McCann and our four first choice Central Midfielders now are Johnson, Davis, Clingan and McCann. And considering Johnson is only just 30, with the other three in their mid 20's, they can hardly be said now to be over the hill. If anything, at least two of them (Clingan and McCann) have improved since.
Which is why, if they were good enough to compete on the international stage then, they should be able to do so now.
Whereas by his record to date, Gibson has yet to prove he can (imo).

[youngirish]

Utter nonsense, even by your standards.

The debate has NOT been about whether the ROI's midfield is better than NI's, it's about whether Gibson would get into the NI team.

And I have clearly stated, with evidence and statistics etc, why I don't think he would, other than when we had injury problems.

[Oh and btw, Birmingham Club Captain Johnson is just coming back from injury, having missed almost all of the season. When he's fully fit again, I suspect he'll add to his record of having appeared more times for Birmingham than any current player on their books. Whereas with the grand total of 6 senior appearances to date, I'd say Fahey still has a bit of catching up to do...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damien_Johnson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Fahey ]


As indicated above, your Gibson vs Johnson comparison for the season to date betrays your ignorance.
As for "insanity", have you decided whether or not to stake all of your dinner money on San Marino finishing ahead of NI, or are you keeping some of it back for a Milky Bar from the Tuckshop?

Johnson has been back from injury since December around about the same time Gibson start getting games for United.

[paul_oshea]

That's pretty much where Portugal found Deco.

It's hardly an exact science though. I don't doubt there are better teams than ours with inferior goalkeepers to Given, for example.

its all about averages.

[kingdomkerry]

Nobody wants to talk about any player other than Ireland players!

[EalingGreen]

The Man United midfield is obviously the area with most competition for places, as Ferguson (http://www.setanta.com/uk/Articles/Football/2009/02/26/Prem-Ferguson-on-Anderson/gnid-41983/) acknowledges.

"The young ones who have played in the League Cup will play in it," said Ferguson. "I'm not changing my mind on that one.

"The middle of midfield is my biggest problem. I've got more options there than anywhere else.

"I've got Anderson, Darren Fletcher, Michael Carrick and young Darron Gibson who is coming on in leaps and bounds. It gives me headaches, but more options."[/I]
Misses the point.
Ferguson has certainly got plenty of CM options for lesser games like the Carling Cup (or "dead" CL games), where he trusts players like Gibson to be competitive.
But Gibson clearly isn't (yet) an option for the big games (EPL and critical CL), otherwise he'd be picking him more often.
Which explains why e.g. Gibson may start ahead of Scholes at Wembley against Spurs, but he's not likely to at OT against Inter.

Don't get me wrong, Gibson is obviously a prospect and has improved noticeably this season.

But imo, he's still only a fringe/second string/Reserve player i.e. he still has a hell of a lot to do before he becomes an established and experienced EPL or Championship player. And until he does, he cannot really be called international class, either for ROI or NI*

* - Had he opted to stay, that is.

[ifk101]

Jeez, if it was a competition to see who can most spectacularly miss the point often enough, you'd be 3rd in the Rankings, only behind Young Irish and Kingdom Kerry!

I think you are just going to have to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you. Maybe the problem lies with you and not everyone else. Perhaps you need to present your points more clearly.


Two or three years ago, ........ Which is why, if they were good enough to compete on the international stage then, they should be able to do so now.

Times changes EG. You're only as good as your last game and all that. Perhaps NI was using the long ball alot more 2/3 years ago and, as such, by-passing the midfield's inadequacies?


Whereas by his record to date, Gibson has yet to prove he can.

It's difficult to break into a top ranking international side. ;) But to break into the NI side is another matter all together.

[Gather round]

It's difficult to break into a top ranking international side. ;) But to break into the NI side is another matter all together

What's Darron Gibson got to do with a top-rank international side?

[kingdomkerry]

What's Darron Gibson got to do with a top-rank international side?

He plays with one;)

[ifk101]

What's Darron Gibson got to do with a top-rank international side?

Nothing at the moment. As EG has already pointed out, he didn't start the last competitive game.

[EalingGreen]

I think you are just going to have to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you.
I do accept it. If I wanted mere agreement, I'd debate such matters on other forums, where I might find more like-minded people.

Maybe the problem lies with you and not everyone else.

I don't feel I have a "problem" with anyone on this thread, even if I think there are two or three individuals who, variously from ignorance/woolly-mindedness/prejudice etc tend to talk nonsense. Indeed, if I didn't think members of this forum were on the whole a decent bunch, I wouldn't bother with it.

Perhaps you need to present your points more clearly.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you need to read them properly.


Times changes EG. You're only as good as your last game and all that.
Agreed, but if we have slipped back in the last couple of years, it has certainly not been due to any decline in our central midfield. For example, we outplayed a very decent Czech Republic at Windsor a few months back, only drawing 0-0 because we couldn't hit the back of the net.


Perhaps NI was using the long ball alot more 2/3 years ago and, as such, by-passing the midfield's inadequacies?

Nope.


It's difficult to break into a top ranking international side. ;) But to break into the NI side is another matter all together.
Hilarious.

[Brendan 82]

Don't get me wrong, Gibson is obviously a prospect and has improved noticeably this season.

But imo, he's still only a fringe/second string/Reserve player i.e. he still has a hell of a lot to do before he becomes an established and experienced EPL or Championship player.

Again, as Fergie said, he is coming on in leaps and bounds. The trajectory looks to be very high. Thats the point. We know he is not a great player, but there is a chance he could be and he is in a very good place right now. Anyway I think you have stated your point effectively on this issue many times so there seems to be some repetition.

[EalingGreen]

Anyway I think you have stated your point effectively on this issue many times so there seems to be some repetition.
Fair enough, over and out!

P.S. Whatever else, I hope Gibson has a stinker on Sunday! ;)

[youngirish]

Fair enough, over and out!

P.S. Whatever else, I hope Gibson has a stinker on Sunday! ;)
Even if he plays the poorest game of his young career thus far he'll still show more talent than Sammy Clingan and Damien Johnson combined, two lower division journeymen of the English game if ever there were, though somehow according to you they become International class for the sole reason that Northern Ireland are forced to cap them due to the absence of anyone better.

By your "logic" (a word you have consistently displayed a total lack of understanding for in any of your posts over the past few years) all of San Marino's regular players are also International class and therefore Gibson wouldn't get near their team either.

Clueless as always.

[paul_oshea]

Again, as Fergie said, he is coming on in leaps and bounds. The trajectory looks to be very high. Thats the point. We know he is not a great player, but there is a chance he could be and he is in a very good place right now. Anyway I think you have stated your point effectively on this issue many times so there seems to be some repetition.

There are two types of people, two types of player, those that learn quickly and adapt and those that take longer to adapt and learn but in the long run end up being better. Roy keane was an example of the latter, perhaps jonny evans is an example of the former. Time will tell with gibson. But I feel the latter realise how much effort it takes to get there and therefore that effort (and mentality) pays off far more in the long run.

[paul_oshea]

Even if he plays the poorest game of his young career thus far he'll still show more talent than Sammy Clingan and Damien Johnson combined, two lower division journeymen of the English game if ever there were, though somehow according to you they become International class for the sole reason that Northern Ireland are forced to cap them due to the absence of anyone better.

By your "logic" (a word you have consistently displayed a total lack of understanding for in any of your posts over the past few years) all of San Marino's regular players are also International class and therefore Gibson wouldn't get near their team either.

Clueless as always.

EG is a spurs fan, so im sure thats what he meant here, a double entendre i spose...