Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[oriel]

That may or may not be true, I'd err more on the side of not. But I think the reasons that clubs don't have much if any money are reasons other than the league moving to summer season and if the league was still played in the winter I'd put my money on the clubs being in a worse position financially.

I totally agree with this, what about the maintenance on pitches for example and the multiple postponements in bad weather, all you need to do is look at the NI leauge, the state of some of their pitches in the depth of winter. Have most also forgotten about Euro prep for teams, and suiting so well for fans as its mid season and not the first game back.

Besides, all of this, just who would want to venture out in the open from 7.30 to 10pm in total darkness and coldest part of the day compared to say a lovely day like it is today? For me there is nothing like coming out of a LOI game in mid summer, light clothes on, still bright and compare that to mid winter, no thanks !

A lot of people have rose tinted glasses on about winter football, apart from the xmas games, not sure I recall bigger crowds either, maybe they haven't increased as much as winter to summer was predicted, but summer and better weather and euro prep are the key plus points for me.

[sbgawa]

100% agree Oriel , the lack of sponsorship and TV money wont change by moving to the winter , the only change will be smaller crowds.
Any time the weather is cat the attendances take a hit particularly small kids / families so move to winter is nuts.
Euro preparation is also a huge thing which given we have 4 European places means 40% of the clubs in the premier have a yearly boost to their chances in what is at the end of the day the only decent money we play for

[Mr A]

If crowds did not increase when we moved to summer, why would they decrease when we moved to winter?

Don't think we should be building the league schedule around 4 clubs either TBH.

[oriel]

I can't understand why anyone would even want to consider a return for winter football, is there not enough depression for months of darkness before 6pm and in some months 4pm. If this is to facilitate one transition season until we return to summer season, I`ll buy that as a temp stop.

As for the 4 clubs, I`ll assume this is the euro regulars, did summer 2016 not increase the profile of the league enough for you? even one of your former players mentioned Dundalk in EL after a PL game that year, Seamus Coleman.

Also before this Rovers making the EL group in 2011 was another big feat, and to be fair on Cork, they also played in 3 rounds, as McNulty roared out in his superb cup final celebration speech in 2016!

Of course I get it when other clubs say euro teams make big cash out of it, so even more incentive for others to try and get that lucrative 4th spot, it can be done also, DFC started with very little but a manager to re-prove himself and mostly cast offs in 2013 and came second to qualify for Europe. Bohs got back to Europe (hopefully) this season after a fair old absence.

[thebronze14]

I can't understand why anyone would even want to consider a return for winter football, is there not enough depression for months of darkness before 6pm and in some months 4pm. If this is to facilitate one transition season until we return to summer season, I`ll buy that as a temp stop.

As for the 4 clubs, I`ll assume this is the euro regulars, did summer 2016 not increase the profile of the league enough for you? even one of your former players mentioned Dundalk in EL after a PL game that year, Seamus Coleman.

Also before this Rovers making the EL group in 2011 was another big feat, and to be fair on Cork, they also played in 3 rounds, as McNulty roared out in his superb cup final celebration speech in 2016!

Of course I get it when other clubs say euro teams make big cash out of it, so even more incentive for others to try and get that lucrative 4th spot, it can be done also, DFC started with very little but a manager to re-prove himself and mostly cast offs in 2013 and came second to qualify for Europe. Bohs got back to Europe (hopefully) this season after a fair old absence.
Great way to pass those depressing evenings though! I used to love those bitter evenings standing in FP....Probably looking with rose tinted glasses tbf! Also would love Harps games to go back to a Sat night but that's a different story altogether

[RathfarnhamHoop]

If crowds did not increase when we moved to summer, why would they decrease when we moved to winter?

Don't think we should be building the league schedule around 4 clubs either TBH.

Because there's other factors at play, just because the attendances didn't increase when one thing happened doesn't mean that it didn't help attendances, other factors could have just leveled it out. There were a million different things that started to go (even more) against the league around the same time.

[pineapple stu]

Nothing wrong with a game on a clear, cold night under the lights in fairness.

But Mr A is right that, while summer football helps clubs in Europe, building the league format around those four clubs is entirely the wrong way to go.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the move to summer football for the LoI only was the stupidest, most short-sighted thing the FAI ever did for the league. The divide it's created between the rest of the league is pretty much the reason why the LoI is dying from the bottom up.

But I guess that's ok so long as it helps Cork muster a narrow away goals defeat in Luxembourg.

[nigel-harps1954]

I can't understand why anyone would even want to consider a return for winter football, is there not enough depression for months of darkness before 6pm and in some months 4pm. If this is to facilitate one transition season until we return to summer season, I`ll buy that as a temp stop.

As for the 4 clubs, I`ll assume this is the euro regulars, did summer 2016 not increase the profile of the league enough for you? even one of your former players mentioned Dundalk in EL after a PL game that year, Seamus Coleman.

Also before this Rovers making the EL group in 2011 was another big feat, and to be fair on Cork, they also played in 3 rounds, as McNulty roared out in his superb cup final celebration speech in 2016!

Of course I get it when other clubs say euro teams make big cash out of it, so even more incentive for others to try and get that lucrative 4th spot, it can be done also, DFC started with very little but a manager to re-prove himself and mostly cast offs in 2013 and came second to qualify for Europe. Bohs got back to Europe (hopefully) this season after a fair old absence.

Absolutely, been a huge increase in crowds at Finn Park because of something Dundalk did..

[RathfarnhamHoop]

The move to a summer league was not a bad decision in the slightest. As with most things in this country its how it was done that's the big problem.
There are many flaws in it but in terms of attracting people to games its much easier to say "do you want to go to the pub, have a few pints then stroll down to tallaght to see Rovers play harps" when it's a sunny Friday evening in July than when it's 3 degrees and ****ing rain in January.

[pineapple stu]

If the whole of football in the country moved, I'd probably agree with you. That said, hard to entice someone to a game if they're on summer holidays, which is a big counter-issue.

But the split it's left is utterly farcical and a big problem for the league. That's why the move was so short-sighted (imo)

(Summer suits me better fwiw)

[RathfarnhamHoop]

If the whole of football in the country moved, I'd probably agree with you. That said, hard to entice someone to a game if they're on summer holidays, which is a big counter-issue.

But the split it's left is utterly farcical and a big problem for the league. That's why the move was so short-sighted (imo)

(Summer suits me better fwiw)

Which goes with what I said, it was the right thing to do done poorly. Sports that allow dual registration do well out of having year round competition with one summer and one winter league but we don't really have that at the moment but could, and we're back to the whole doing things properly part.

[LOI101]

Death, Taxes,...


Don't think there'd be a rights issue going by the Cork and Dundalk pilot last season. RTE and eir could still show their games too. You'd imagine too in that scenario people pooling together to buy games would also be breaching social distancing rules so you'd hope that would deter most people and those it didn't would probably find a way around it no matter what you did.

I'm personally against behind closed doors games, can't imagine any fan wanting to see their team in a Derby or win something and not be there but if it's that or clubs start to go under then I know which I'd choose.

Out of interest what was the quality of the stream like? Many camera angles? Was there commentary?

[Asterix]

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/ronan-finn-explains-shamrock-rovers-21880286.amp?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

[Martinho II]

I dont know about ye but I always found in winter with the frosty nights there was more of a noise in grounds from the vocal crowd.It seemed to carry way better in the air and there was something about watching it in the dark under lights. Maybe I am a bit of a traditionalist but thats my take of it.
In fairness to summer soccer our clubs performance in Europe improved dramatically but I do see both sides of the argument all right.

[oriel]

Out of interest what was the quality of the stream like? Many camera angles? Was there commentary?

I only saw one Dundalk game as I was on holiday at the time, perfect stream, looked same angle as soccer rep, commentary was by a very enthuastic english lady, most prob in a studio. I think it was €3.99 per game or €9.99 for 3 or 4, I've vaugue memories of the club doing a refund as they couldnt show one or two others, but the feedback was very positive on the games shown, also it was only available outside Ireland* which was the reason I bought it as knew Id be away.

I think this also included being available in NI

[Nesta99]

I think there is a bit of viewing winter football through rose tinted specs! Yes there is a different atmosphere thats appealing. I do enjoy early season games as you get the night game nostalgia. But the majority of the time it was pretty horrible. Grounds differ and some are more open than others like Oriel Park so on a cold wet night it wasnt fun especially if watching a struggling team. Summer football isnt perfect but it is preferable, i think a lot of peoples issues with a summer season is the manner in which it was done as a hail mary punt and didnt bring other football in to line with the senior game. I just cant be enthused by being at games in gales, lashing rain, baltic cold and waiting for close enough to half time to get in to the Lilywhite Lounge to dry and thaw out. And Oriel is from from the worst as damn there is nowhere colder than the Carlisle Grounds with an easterly whipping in - it would nearly drive ye to tears. If the crisp, frosty, dry nights were most common then yeah wrapped up warm there is a charm to the experience and the atmosphere does seem better as does the fact that you cant see swarths of empty terracing. Summer footy also allows better for taking the kids to games!

[RathfarnhamHoop]

The summer season organisation is just half assed as per FAI usual.

This season using the original fixtures Rovers would have had 17 league games May - August plus 2 Cup weekends and the week off. Plus European games for clubs that qualify.

If we're going to flog players at some point in the season sure summer is the time to do it as it's when people are most likely to go to midweek games. The week off should also be planned better, should either be around the European dates or the state examination dates.
All the seniors leagues senior divisions and LOI underage teams should be made go summer calendar too. Keep everything below that whatever they want to be and allow dual registration for underage sides and with strict conditions depending on level for senior sides.

[Kingswood Rover]

People harping back for a return to winter Football reminds me of those news stories from Russia about people looking for a return to the Stalinist USSR.

[oriel]

100% agree, I just don't get this 'new wave' looking to even consider winter football, you guys have not obviously been to any LOI ground in the 80's (or 90's) in freezing conditions, or maybe you have only memories of PL in England on Sky tv in a warm pub in winter.

Christ its about the only thing Oriel Park has going for it these days, if its summer and dry, decent view (3/4 pitch from away end - and same for those other side of the stand)

I can recall being at games at HT in away grounds, late 80's, you literally had to jump on the spot to keep warm, why would anyone want to go back to that?????

USSR was mentioned, also like an East German wanting to return back after being in the west, now come on lads.

[D24Saint]

I’d say it’s two things driving the winter season debate , the desire for games at Christmas like the UK and generally having other things to do in the summer than go to football.

[Nesta99]

This ongoing theory is getting very close to worse case scenario and will be the info that wipes out everything from LoI to a pint in the local indefinitely. Developing a vaccine that it now seems will have to act in a more effective manner than active immunity kicks any schedules for some return to normality a long way down the road as it is a more complex problem. There probably couldnt be a worse discovery in all of this.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0418/1132298-who-anti-bodies-covid-19/

The WHO's top emergency expert Mike Ryan said that even if antibodies were effective there was little sign that large numbers of people had developed them and were beginning to offer so-called "herd immunity" to the broader population."A lot of preliminary information coming to us right now would suggest quite a low percentage of population have seroconverted (to produce antibodies)," Mr Ryan said.
"The expectation that ... the majority in society may have developed antibodies, the general evidence is pointing against that, so it may not solve the problem of governments."

Dr Mike Ryan is a Sligo native Tubbercurry to be precise lol. There is something calming about having a pre-eminent top Irish expert helping to inform world policy.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I’d say it’s two things driving the winter season debate , the desire for games at Christmas like the UK and generally having other things to do in the summer than go to football.

For the vast majority of people I'd say they're less busy in summer than in winter. The only real problem with summers is people go on holidays but people go away in the winter too just not in the same numbers.

[John83]

For the vast majority of people I'd say they're less busy in summer than in winter. The only real problem with summers is people go on holidays but people go away in the winter too just not in the same numbers.
How long do people spend away in the summer? I'd be surprised if I'm on holidays for even two consecutive matches most years.

[nigel-harps1954]

How long do people spend away in the summer? I'd be surprised if I'm on holidays for even two consecutive matches most years.

Of course, everyone goes on holidays on the same week.

Speaking purely from a Harps point of view, as I know Dublin clubs see a rise in foreign visitors during the summer months, our attendances suffer terribly during the summer. There's a marked decrease in our figures from June through to August. Some of that can be put down to mid-season lull, but the neutral will generally prefer to spend their summer days on the beach, or having a barbeque with the family, or in the beer garden with the lads, rather than going to a football match, from my own experiences in trying to convince people to go to games.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

How long do people spend away in the summer? I'd be surprised if I'm on holidays for even two consecutive matches most years.

Sorta my point, it's the only real busy thing going on in the summer and it's a small enough window it impacts.


Of course, everyone goes on holidays on the same week.

Speaking purely from a Harps point of view, as I know Dublin clubs see a rise in foreign visitors during the summer months, our attendances suffer terribly during the summer. There's a marked decrease in our figures from June through to August. Some of that can be put down to mid-season lull, but the neutral will generally prefer to spend their summer days on the beach, or having a barbeque with the family, or in the beer garden with the lads, rather than going to a football match, from my own experiences in trying to convince people to go to games.

All the problems you've mentioned could easily be solved by clubs if they're clever though or are just as problematic in winter. Clubs could easily have bbqs and sell beer at games and do other promotions that would get people in the gate in summer.

My experience is trying to get people to go to games when the weathers good is much easier than getting people to go when it's ****e out

[pineapple stu]

Simon Harris seems to be spelling the end of the 2020 season (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0419/1132436-harris-its-unlikely-well-see-mass-gatherings-in-2020/) anyway (and pubs...)

[D24Saint]

Simon Harris seems to be spelling the end of the 2020 season (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0419/1132436-harris-its-unlikely-well-see-mass-gatherings-in-2020/) anyway (and pubs...)

Seen this coming , the policy seems to be drip feed the bad news. If Feb 2021 is the new target is there clubs that won’t potentially make it ? How do clubs handle existing contracts particularly the clubs that pay full year contracts.

[pineapple stu]

Make players redundant I guess?

Obviously it means they're all free agents - but I think trying to maintain normal is long gone out the window.

Though at least you could go for a pint during the war...

A year without sports clubs, pubs, festivals, maybe even high-street shops, is going to play absolute havoc with the economy. I'd be more worried that clubs come back to an environment they can't survive in.

Also - how many volunteer committee members will realise they prefer having the free time? Will this be an excuse for some to quietly drop out? There has to be some clubs out there who really couldn't afford to lose 1/2 important officials.

[D24Saint]

I’ve read that English clubs put a clause in contracts that said the players contract was valid to a certain date or seven days after the last game. I assume our clubs put something similar in player contracts. It’s a mess but our league can’t operate without matchday revenue and it looks there won’t be any for the rest of the calendar year so it’s time to protect clubs futures.

[pineapple stu]

LoI club contracts have an end date, but of course we've just started our season, so it's a long time away, even for a one-year contract.

I guess clubs are availing of the covid payments of €350/week, which is probably an average enough wage for an LoI player anyway.

Revenue are giving allowances on tax payments too while this is all going on (don't know if that covers arrears, which plenty of clubs would have).

I still think the bigger issue is going to be the operating environment next Feb, or whenever all this resumes. Every income source is going to be reduced surely. Sponsorship will be down. Gates will probably be down, and people will be less inclined to buy a scarf or a programme. UEFA Solidarity will probably be down, and probably European prize money. The FAI were broke anyway and won't be able to help. I can see insurance costs dropping because there'll be huge pressure to cut down on scammers. But that's about the only positive I think.

[D24Saint]

Club bars like Bohs will also be a huge no no for the foreseeable future. I saw a interesting but disturbing fact on NBC news , they reckon an average of 40k Americans die every year of flue and that has a vaccine. They reckon covid 19 is twice as aggressive as influenza. This will hang around for a long time yet.

[pineapple stu]

Oh there's on doubt but that this is real alright. I saw analysis of rip.ie stats there and the estimate was that twice as many people will die in Ireland this month as would normally be the case. And that's with a lockdown in place since the middle of March. Granted, half of the deaths attributable are in nursing homes and while any death from this is tragic, the life expectancy in nursing homes wouldn't be great anyway (30 months from first admission on average, I've seen), so many would have been 2020 deaths anyway. But still, a doubling of the death rate during a lockdown is pretty notable. And many people who recover may well have lung illnesses which could shorten life expectancy, or Nick Cordero (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Cordero), a Canadian actor who had his leg amputated yesterday as a result of complications from covid.

This thing's a *******, and the likes of Gemma O'Doherty and John Waters taking the state to the High Court to get restrictions lifted should be jailed. O'Doherty, of course, won't even take a vaccine if/when one comes out because she doesn't believe in them. ****ing idiot.

[total hoofball]

There is no chance of any LOI resumption in June/July, closed doors from August onwards will not be economically feasible so LOI is probably done for 2020 unless a vaccine appears from nowhere.

I think the FAI/Clubs/PFAI are awaiting to see what decisions are taken across Europe countries & UEFA but decisions are a long-way off there aswell. Unless the government continue to subsidise clubs/wages then contracts will be breached and the players will have to accept it if they want clubs still in business to re-employ them hopefully sometime in 2021

[D24Saint]

The FAI will need clarity on how this years 20/21 uefa competitions will be handled and how we decide who takes part in next years 21/22 european football, their is a lot of money at stake.

[Martinho II]

This is so unprecedented. For some reason I thought that this happened before but in WW II it was a lot of country clubs that didnt play in LOI ie Sligo Rovers while across the water there was no footie. I have a feeling that this could take more than a year to sort out imo..

[D24Saint]

The thoughts of not seeing Richmond or any ground for a year is shocking I will relish that scent of cheap curry sauce in air when we are back.

[D24Saint]

https://www.thejournal.ie/pubs-not-open-coronavirus-ireland-5078446-Apr2020/?amp=1

Could just be speculation or it could be the government drip feeding how they intend to set their stall out. I reckon something has to be done for the Sports, Pub, Hotel, Restaurant industry’s. It would be a massive call for any government to put six figures on to the live register and essentially shut down long standing businesses for good. There is a lot of self righteous talk about how unimportant these sectors are at the moment but it’s hundreds of thousands of people’s livelihood at stake. I think the government has to create regulations for all this to allow these businesses to operate and reopen in a few months time.

[sbgawa]

If you want an example of why i love the loi , one of the rovers match day volunteers anthony mcdonald has just died of covid 19...a go fundme appeal has raised 15k in a few hours for his family. We are all a big family.

[Park_Lane]

If you want an example of why i love the loi , one of the rovers match day volunteers anthony mcdonald has just died of covid 19...a go fundme appeal has raised 15k in a few hours for his family. We are all a big family.

100% over 18k now, donations from fans and players from across loi, incredible thanks to all who donated. Anthony was heavily involved in the junior hoops and made the match day experience so much better for young fans with his time and effort. A Rovers man through and through but more importantly a family man who loved bringing his kids to games.

[Nesta99]

For all our differences I think LoI fans have more in common with each other irrespective of rivalries! We can all empathise with problems faced especially financially. It is a real community, if a bit niché, and bar the small minority of numbskulls that try to damage it its a source of pride - we tend to hate other football teams but not hate eachother. A spot of bickering on football fora is about the height of it but gets set aside at difficult or sad times. Obviously I didnt know Anthony but he sounds like many club volunteers - dedicated and generous, giving up his time for others. He will undoubtedly be missed, RiP.

[Mr A]

Anthony was one of those faces you knew from down the years, he was there through thick and thin and of course very recognizable too! May he RIP.

[pineapple stu]

Fergal Bowers on twitter reporting that no event with a capacity more than 5k will be given a licence until at least the end of August.

So at the very least, that presumably means a restriction on Tallaght/Turner's Cross?

Edit - link (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0421/1132956-no-mass-gatherings-over-5000-puts-summer-sport-in-doubt/)

[D24Saint]

I’d imagine it’s 5000 max once social distancing is implemented.

[vinnie]

If only season ticket holders were allowed in I think we'd all be ok, but unfortunately we all have eejits who Have to sit in a certain seat with their mates to enjoy a match, personally, and I think most would agree, I'd go to a stadium on me own to watch a match at the minute, I'd even go to the coldest stadium in the world, The Carlisle, to see some football

[joey B]

The 5000 people thing is a complete red herring for the LOI really,its not gonna be the reason why football is played or not here,it would also look pretty bad if every other social activity was banned and we had football going on......

[Nesta99]

Which theoretically can be done - stricter limit, serious amount of organisation and cooperation frim fans needed but could be better than no football at all. The tendency for centre scection of The Shed in Oriel is a perfect example where you can have 2-3 people standing in a seating space for 1. That habit would have to stop with the whole ground used, full compliance and acceptance as making the best of a bad situation. Feasable? I dont know, possible? I think so when the alternative is the decimation of the keague financially otherwisel.

[sbgawa]

Would be great to get going again, at least the fact they are discussing this means that a restart is on the cards.

[D24Saint]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0421/1132957-bohemians-keith-ward-fears-loi-season-will-be-scrapped/

I’ve seen another worrying report that if Uefa competitions don’t come to a conclusion then they won’t realise prize money. That would leave Dundalk, Rovers, Pats & Cork out of pocket big time.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/league-ireland-clubs-miss-out-21897998

Meanwhile we have had to layoff staff, Mr K obviously isn’t hopeful of any more football in 2020.

https://www.stpatsfc.com/news.php?id=8689

[RathfarnhamHoop]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0421/1132957-bohemians-keith-ward-fears-loi-season-will-be-scrapped/

I’ve seen another worrying report that if Uefa competitions don’t come to a conclusion then they won’t realise prize money. That would leave Dundalk, Rovers, Pats & Cork out of pocket big time.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/league-ireland-clubs-miss-out-21897998

Meanwhile we have had to layoff staff, Mr K obviously isn’t hopeful of any more football in 2020.

https://www.stpatsfc.com/news.php?id=8689

That's not prize money that's a separate pot of money they're talking about there that UEFA dish out

Worrying that pats have had to do that but not completely surprising I don't think.

[pineapple stu]

That's the solidarity funding I presume?

That could be a bigger issue - it'd affect every Premier team.