Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[El-Pietro]

Chelsea in quarantine after Hudson-Odoi tests positive. Thats two teams with confirmed cases and three more (Leicester, Watford and Everton) with suspected cases. If that many football teams in the PL are affected its far more widespread. They just aren't testing enough in the UK. Its likely more widespread than we realise here too, but at least our government isn't alseep at the wheel.

[pineapple stu]

All Champions League and Europa League games postponed now.

[NeverFeltBetter]

EPL back on the 4th April, for now. Season moved on into June?

[pineapple stu]

That'll have knock-on effects on the Euros too

[sidewayspasser]

I don't think the Euros will take place this summer. Maybe moved to next year.

[D24Saint]

I be surprised if things just go back to normal in a month but hope I’m mistaken. If there is a long layoff what clubs in particular are in danger ? I’d say most first division clubs and perhaps Cork or Harps maybe ? I wouldn’t be too worried about ourselves on the short to medium term but long term is entering the unknown.

[total hoofball]

Full time players will have to go the dole and part-timers players will have to suck it up untill the league eventually resumes and it certainly won't be anytime before June

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Full time players will have to go the dole and part-timers players will have to suck it up untill the league eventually resumes and it certainly won't be anytime before June
Unless they do it voluntarily full time players won't be going on the dole. Players in the league as well as the clubs are actually quite unlucky in that the nature of football contracts means that the clubs sort of have to pay them no matter what, putting the clubs at risk thus putting the clubs ability to pay the players in the future at risk.

All this really just highlights the real danger Delaneys antics over the years have put the league in.

[Martinho II]

Caution is prudent but I wouldnt be so fatalistic about it either. Even within the at risk demographic mortality rate is far from 100%, not that Id want to test the numbers.

It'd be interesting to track the 54k that were in Anfield last night (3000 Spaniards also) and assess any cross-infection. I can't get the head around how Cheltenham has avoided restriction and with the biggest day, Gold Cup to come. Flies in the face of what seems to be best practice across Europe, yet its the UK that have 'strong borders' and avoid a ban on travel to the US. (Culture Secretary Oliver Dowden said that events such as the prestigious Gold Cup should go ahead as planned."There’s no reason why people should not be going to those sort of events,"I think it’s very premature to be talking about that sort of thing.”)

What is with the panic buying of bread and bog roll? I'd have expected the alcohol aisle to be sold out and go out singing, fitting a stereotype if you will. There is no imminent shortage of anything which is where the grumble remains on scaremongering!

Id have been of a similar opinion a week or so ago but in such a fluid circumstance ye reassess. I still think there is a general overreaction in terms of doomsday, but better safe than sorry at this stage.

I hope the same wriggle room on credit is afforded to LoI clubs as with other businesses even if credit ratings are trash. All clubs have limped on with crowds of 500 or so and managed to keep going - more of the same and with more likelihood of financial supports might happen.

Yeah know what you mean but my elderly dad has lung disease and he needs homehelp regularly hence why I am deeply worried.

[Martinho II]

Saw good piece in Sun today about Mick McCarthy could be staying longer than he thought due to the corona virus. I would love to see SK reaction if he cant take charge later this year!

[D24Saint]

I’d say the nations league will be cancelled and the euros pushed back to next year, id say SK will have to wait a bit longer for the big job.

[D24Saint]

https://www.the42.ie/declan-carey-cork-interview-5045444-Mar2020/

[DCWA]

I love Cheltenham but this has show that horse racing is run by elites who don’t give a toss about the plebs. It shouldn’t have gone ahead.

Absolutely, big fan myself (despite it costing me a fair bit this year ;) had the week off work for it) but you are entirely correct.

[sbgawa]

Christ , life is boring as **** with no sport!!

[Nesta99]

Yeah know what you mean but my elderly dad has lung disease and he needs homehelp regularly hence why I am deeply worried.

I understand yer worry completely. In many ways he is easier to protect with people concerned than so of the blasé behaviour types. Im sure you are already but nobody goes near, especially home help, or touches surfaces eg a kettle before washing hands. In case people arnt being thorough wipe common surfaces down, fridge doorhandle, bathroom taps etc. If he isnt out and about you can almost certainly keep him safe and sound. Worry can be good but keep sensible and dont let it eat a hole in ye!

[sbgawa]

Drove by my local pub, car park full and place hopping.
People don't seem to be taking things seriously.
Rovers put the programmes from the Finn harps game for sale online and have sold nearly 500.
Lot of goodwill towards the clubs.

[D24Saint]

Drove by my local pub, car park full and place hopping.
People don't seem to be taking things seriously.
Rovers put the programmes from the Finn harps game for sale online and have sold nearly 500.
Lot of goodwill towards the clubs.

They will force the government to close them with that carry on , my local in fairness had half their furniture removed and reckon they will voluntarily close for paddy’s day.

[Scrufil]

Oldest Pub in Ireland has decided to close its doors, Seán's Bar, Athlone, due to Covid-19 fears. In fairness on a quiet night you couldn't swing a cat in the place. Don't know if others will follow suit.

[Nesta99]

Drove by my local pub, car park full and place hopping.
People don't seem to be taking things seriously.
Rovers put the programmes from the Finn harps game for sale online and have sold nearly 500.
Lot of goodwill towards the clubs.

I think people can think things are serious but cant give up the pub. It's still some ridiculous badge of honour that paddy will prevail pints in hand!? A lot of these people are out to prove they are bullitproof, im my experience especially the ones with a history of heart disease and a few heart attacks under the belt already. Selfish individuals in many ways. The rest are likley younger types who have a dulled sense of risk associated with their young age. The Irish Pub...I can think of few worse places in the world for hygiene and infection control never mind social seperation. Was always going to be the fly in the ointment as the vitners lobby manage to override public health officials...that and the real fear that its a step too far for some Irish in the balance between maintaining social cohesion and effective social protection. Gonna sound harsh but if there ends up a body count of significance a lot will be from this 'carefree' group, not the younger crowd but this unique experience might have them cop on eventually!

They, of course, will cause an even longer need to go on lockdown, damage all sorts of business in a greater manner and put their own loved ones in direct harms way. If they dont care about themselves how about mother/father/wife/husband et al.

People cant behave appropriately then a Nanny State must step in - https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0315/1123356-coronavirus-ireland/

[CorribsideSteve]

I think people can think things are serious but cant give up the pub. It's still some ridiculous badge of honour that paddy will prevail pints in hand!? A lot of these people are out to prove they are bullitproof, im my experience especially the ones with a history of heart disease and a few heart attacks under the belt already. Selfish individuals in many ways. The rest are likley younger types who have a dulled sense of risk associated with their young age. The Irish Pub...I can think of few worse places in the world for hygiene and infection control never mind social seperation. Was always going to be the fly in the ointment as the vitners lobby manage to override public health officials...that and the real fear that its a step too far for some Irish in the balance between maintaining social cohesion and effective social protection. Gonna sound harsh but if there ends up a body count of significance a lot will be from this 'carefree' group, not the younger crowd but this unique experience might have them cop on eventually!

They, of course, will cause an even longer need to go on lockdown, damage all sorts of business in a greater manner and put their own loved ones in direct harms way. If they dont care about themselves how about mother/father/wife/husband et al.

People cant behave appropriately then a Nanny State must step in - https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0315/1123356-coronavirus-ireland/

Our enslaving addiction to drinking alcohol until one can't remember a single moment of the night (deliberately) is stronger than any virus unfortunately.

[CorribsideSteve]

https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1239134243227340800

[D24Saint]

No club is immune to this but get the vibe from the media that Cork & Sligo are particularly concerned.

[CorribsideSteve]

No club is immune to this but get the vibe from the media that Cork & Sligo are particularly concerned.
Particularly Cork, having had to sell off player tranfer clauses to pay off a tax bill just to start the season. It'd cost the FAI millions to reimburse 20 clubs, particularly if the season is abandoned/voided/suspended for far longer than these two weeks. And there's a better chance of a sunny settled summer than that happening given the FAI's own finances. Worrying times.

[pineapple stu]

Don't forget the implications of a cancelled Euros too - aren't some clubs making extra money off that by renting out their grounds?

I think it's why UCD have no home games in May/June.

[Nesta99]

Closures running beyond the 29th of March is a real possibility now. There is a method to the madness of the UK response in this regard, even if their models seem to callously want to promote herd immunity at the cost of countless lives in high risk categories - could be the quickest route back to normality. End of March is a best case scenario with a dose of wishful thinking which definitely wont happen (a drip feed of bad news tactic?) if people are dead set to ignore sound advice as exampled above. It could be in the interest of players to agree deferrment of payments that they may get down the line as opposed to definitely wont get if a club is pushed out of business and go the route of government led welfare payments for employees of businesses in trouble in the interim. PFAI imo should be leading on advice on support eg debt breaks rather than apparent unrealistic 800k loans to fill the unknown gap of end cost in entirety and on behalf of a sort of third party in the clubs? Maybe they are doing this but they are not that well known for pragmatism in the past. I dont see SIPTU etc looking to borrow money to pay others wage bill for their members...

[Nesta99]

Don't forget the implications of a cancelled Euros too - aren't some clubs making extra money off that by renting out their grounds?

I think it's why UCD have no home games in May/June.

UCD are likely to be the safest of all clubs in this tbh. Last club standing and its Champions League football!

[D24Saint]

UCD are likely to be the safest of all clubs in this tbh. Last club standing and its Champions League football!

Remember hearing somewhere that the funds the college itself provides the club to run itself are a lot less than what people think.

[pineapple stu]

That was probably Collie O'Neill's interview on the LoI Weekly podcast?

We're probably safer than most clubs in fairness - fairly low cost base and the college is effectively a wealthy backer (though it's not as if UCD the college are financially sound either)

But we wouldn't be the only club to have Euro 2020 money budgeted, so I don't think this is just a UCD issue.

[Martinho II]

That was probably Collie O'Neill's interview on the LoI Weekly podcast?

We're probably safer than most clubs in fairness - fairly low cost base and the college is effectively a wealthy backer (though it's not as if UCD the college are financially sound either)

But we wouldn't be the only club to have Euro 2020 money budgeted, so I don't think this is just a UCD issue.

Is there many loi clubs in Dublin that have Euro 2020 money budgeted I had completely forgotten about this?

[Nesta99]

UCD seems to be the main one with no home games scheduled prior and during Euro2020. I dont recall other clubs having such harsh scheduling so would indicate others not giving up their pitch for an international side in camp. Maybe over a day or 2 prior to a game in the Aviva? Thats not to say that postponement of Euro2020 wouldnt have financial implications elswhere both withinn football and the FAI who'd see it as badly need few pay days and how many hotel bookings binned.

[D24Saint]

There was a bit on the news about bar staff getting the dole temporarily due to the shutdown , can this apply to LOI clubs. It is a similar situation for a football club to a pub in terms that their ability to operate and earn has been distributed by the shut down. I’m sure plenty of bar staff have contracts that won’t be honoured during this.

[John83]

We're probably safer than most clubs in fairness - fairly low cost base and the college is effectively a wealthy backer (though it's not as if UCD the college are financially sound either)
The universities here have grown dependent on non-EU student fees since their core grants from the government were cut a decade ago and never restored. Those students aren't going to turn up in the usual numbers in September. The universities here will be hurting financially. I doubt UCD AFC can depend on there being much help to call on. They'll need the same help as any other club here. I expect they have a big bill in September with all the scholarship students fees due, so that'll be the crunch point in terms of cash flow. Unless they just tear up all the contracts, which I would think is a very plausible scenario. The club might finish the season as complete amateurs. If there is an end to the season.

[nigel-harps1954]

There was a bit on the news about bar staff getting the dole temporarily due to the shutdown , can this apply to LOI clubs. It is a similar situation for a football club to a pub in terms that their ability to operate and earn has been distributed by the shut down. I’m sure plenty of bar staff have contracts that won’t be honoured during this.

Bar staff are effectively on zero-hour contracts on an hourly rate. The LOI players will have a 40 week contract with a specified amount being made. I'd say there'd be a massive difference in both contracts.

[John83]

Bar staff are effectively on zero-hour contracts on an hourly rate. The LOI players will have a 40 week contract with a specified amount being made. I'd say there'd be a massive difference in both contracts.
That's true. I'm sure there's a way in this sort of situation. A redundancy, maybe, if nothing else. An organisation with no scheduled matches has no need of a footballer.

[pineapple stu]

Redundancy doesn't kick in until you're two years with an employer. That'll be 90 of LoI footballers out of that net.

It really isn't going to be easy to get though all this financially - but of course it's not going to be just footballers and barstaff. It's going to be a lot of people.

And I'd say they still wouldn't trade with shop assistants or medical staff.

[Nesta99]

Tonight will be a 7th on the spin as we try to clear the boards of routine and emergency cases that land in, running off a 24/7 roster. The 'shutdown' to non covid cases in the North is to be ramped up the end of next week Throughput has been huge and makes ye wonder how half the effort a couple of times year to clear waiting lists cant happen.

[John83]

Redundancy doesn't kick in until you're two years with an employer. That'll be 90 of LoI footballers out of that net.
So you're saying clubs can cut them loose for free? Sucks for the players, but may be the only way for the clubs not to rack up debts if the league is suspended for a significant period.

Or maybe you mean the clubs can't use that mechanism at all? Which has its own drawbacks.

[pineapple stu]

Well anyone still on probation (employed for less than 11 months, unless advised they've passed probation) in any job can be let go pretty much immediately.

And yeah, if you make someone redundant - which explicitly has to be because the job doesn't exist any more, not because you want to change the person in the role - can be cut loose with no redundancy as well. That's general employment law, not just LoI. I don't know how 39 week contracts work - are you back to square 1 in terms of length of service if you "leave" the club during pre-season and sign back up in Feb?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

The universities here have grown dependent on non-EU student fees since their core grants from the government were cut a decade ago and never restored. Those students aren't going to turn up in the usual numbers in September. The universities here will be hurting financially. I doubt UCD AFC can depend on there being much help to call on. They'll need the same help as any other club here. I expect they have a big bill in September with all the scholarship students fees due, so that'll be the crunch point in terms of cash flow. Unless they just tear up all the contracts, which I would think is a very plausible scenario. The club might finish the season as complete amateurs. If there is an end to the season.

UCD will be grand. The money from the uni effectively is, for the most part, just written off against the scholarships they give out, its all very academic the only real question is how many of each scholarship they choose to award.

The only stuff UCD need external cash for is stuff like food, transport, kit, equipment. Most of which has either been sorted already or is only needed on match day so if they're needed you can reasonably assume there'll be income as closed doors games seem to be off the table.

As for the amateurs bit for all extensive purposes UCD players are amateurs in that they don't actually get paid any cash for playing football but their contracts are more complex than most other football clubs through a mix of the summer season and scholarship system.

[pineapple stu]

I think that's largely right in fairness.

Meanwhile, Drogheda have stopped payments to their squad (https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0316/1123581-drogheda-united-suspend-payments-to-players-and-staff/). Unfortunate, if entirely understandable. If clubs don't have the money, they can't pay it over.

[Nesta99]

Well anyone still on probation (employed for less than 11 months, unless advised they've passed probation) in any job can be let go pretty much immediately.

And yeah, if you make someone redundant - which explicitly has to be because the job doesn't exist any more, not because you want to change the person in the role - can be cut loose with no redundancy as well. That's general employment law, not just LoI. I don't know how 39 week contracts work - are you back to square 1 in terms of length of service if you "leave" the club during pre-season and sign back up in Feb?

Really? I knew that there were implications with making a 'position' rather than a person redundant but wouldnt have thought that the person could be made walk without the prospect of redundancy especially with any sort of length of service. I'd have thought that would be open to abuse eg if a person is wanted rid of then make the position redundant and an alternative position if it could be made just sufficiently different in the whole role and responsibility from the previous position - well its a way of sacking an unsackable.

I dont know how it would work for the higer rate social welfare of covid related job loss, but players would be able to apply for the regular rate especially if waiting times are being waived currently in the event of contracts stopping. Part-timers you assume have other employment so its a loss of income rather than loss of a job if ye know what I mean. For full time players i'd imagine there will need to be a lot of trust where contracts are mutually terminated on the basis that they will be renewed as soon as things are back on the road. It would be very complex for anyone to be applying for social welfare support if they are still fully contracted (proper contracts rather than casual or 0 hour efforts which Im sure are not allowed by licencing) but payment deferred or suspended - especially when its all about trying to keep the club alive.

[Nesta99]

UCD will be grand. The money from the uni effectively is, for the most part, just written off against the scholarships they give out, its all very academic the only real question is how many of each scholarship they choose to award.

The only stuff UCD need external cash for is stuff like food, transport, kit, equipment. Most of which has either been sorted already or is only needed on match day so if they're needed you can reasonably assume there'll be income as closed doors games seem to be off the table.

As for the amateurs bit for all extensive purposes UCD players are amateurs in that they don't actually get paid any cash for playing football but their contracts are more complex than most other football clubs through a mix of the summer season and scholarship system.

Thats what I was kinda thinking. Matchday expenses are only there if matchdays happen. For UCD then the relative cost of the playing squad would be low. Possibly answered before but are any/all of UCDAFC staff just on the clubs books or paid by the college? The break in the summer for UCD without having home games could work in favour as it would have been budgeted for a gap with more home games weighted latter part of the season.

[pineapple stu]

Really? I knew that there were implications with making a 'position' rather than a person redundant but wouldnt have thought that the person could be made walk without the prospect of redundancy especially with any sort of length of service. I'd have thought that would be open to abuse eg if a person is wanted rid of then make the position redundant and an alternative position if it could be made just sufficiently different in the whole role and responsibility from the previous position - well its a way of sacking an unsackable.
If you hire someone new, even for a "new role", you're leaving yourself open to legal challenges. It's a risky route. But that's what probation is for - you can end a contact much easier in probation.

If you don't create a new role - if the tasks are all taken over by existing people for example - then yes, you can get rid of an employee with less than two years' service and no redundancy is due. (You'd have to pay notice though)

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Possibly answered before but are any/all of UCDAFC staff just on the clubs books or paid by the college?

The only answer is that really nobody outside the club knows since there's such a combination of contracts involved in the club from college staff to volunteers and it changes so often.

So in short some might be getting paid by the club but it's minimal amounts if they are

[Nesta99]

It sounds like there could be similarities with interdepartmental billing in Local Authorities then, so reimbursing a department for time staff are off working elsewhere and no adjustment to salary. Would make sense that any college teams would utilise expertise already there rather than bring someone in specially in certain roles. That, crossover of jobs, volunteers, well it makes for a complex staffing set up but could also help protect the club itself if staff are on NUI payroll.

[pineapple stu]

Barnet in the English Conference have laid off their 60 non-footballing staff.

Really puts the English game in perspective - 60 non-footballing staff. Bloody heck. I presume Rovers, even with their academy, wouldn't be close to that?

[D24Saint]

https://www.the42.ie/drogheda-players-wages-5048435-Mar2020/

#Greatestleagueintheworld

[D24Saint]

https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/Cork-City-offer-fans-a-chance-to-watch-old-games-and-help-with-the-clubs-finances-11e2153b-ae43-48f8-abef-9c8c47604107-ds

Cork City doing a fundraiser.

[redobit]

Survival of clubs is obviously top priority for LOI and hopefully all clubs get through this. But no way this is going to be cleared up by March 29th ... so where does this leave this season. Mass gatherings will be the last thing to get back to normal and if this goes on for a good few months there will have to be some decisions made. There is literally a handful of games played by each team so they might restart the season with a two-week pre-season and a reduced number of games (home and away!). They could chop a series of games off the season either if it doesn't go on too long.

[El-Pietro]

https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/Cork-City-offer-fans-a-chance-to-watch-old-games-and-help-with-the-clubs-finances-11e2153b-ae43-48f8-abef-9c8c47604107-ds

Cork City doing a fundraiser.

Its a nice idea and I'm looking forward to watching the games as they are released, but so far there are just 25 subscribers. Thats €625 a month. It will help but its not going to solve the problem, at least not on its own.