Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[placid casual]

Good point. Insurers seem to be saying they don't cover Covid19. They're really affecting Irish society, especially in the past 10 years or so. White collar extortion
A complete myth. The claims culture in Ireland, coupled with the free unregulated reign that the legal society have in this country, have made insurance a winning gamble for the grubby elements of Irish society.

[Nesta99]

That's a fair point, but even with payouts in Ireland being 4 or 5 times the EU average, insurance companies have been posting year on year increased profit at record levels for at least the last half decade and probably a lot longer. That may not be the case this year but I dont think they will be crippled by covid related payouts. There will be a reduction in claims across the board due to lockdown that will mitigate against slowing growth. But yeah the sooner the Personal Injuries Commission makes a better mark the better! Though with it being made up of legal people it's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

You almost never see whiplash injuries turn up to hospital appointments after a payout is awarded!!

[D24Saint]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0520/1139612-pfai-clubs-will-suffer-further-if-they-dont-return/

I wish McGuinness would put a muzzle on this bloke , these comments won’t help the situation.

[redobit]

Id rather be relegated through withdrawing or be throw out, than push ahead with a league where we will accumulate debt. If prefer to be in the 1st division and be financially stable than go ahead with a financial package that isint 100% guaranteed for the club to break even.

[Yossarian]

Id rather be relegated through withdrawing or be throw out, than push ahead with a league where we will accumulate debt. If prefer to be in the 1st division and be financially stable than go ahead with a financial package that isint 100% guaranteed for the club to break even.

What happens if the government give the league the ok to go ahead but the clubs decide to cancel it? It will get messy with plenty of players looking for their contracted wages or at the least an agreement on their entitlements.
Unfortunately this is completely uncharted territory and there is going to be some loss for clubs and players. The best outcome is to limit theses losses.

[redobit]

What happens if the government give the league the ok to go ahead but the clubs decide to cancel it? It will get messy with plenty of players looking for their contracted wages or at the least an agreement on their entitlements.
Unfortunately this is completely uncharted territory and there is going to be some loss for clubs and players. The best outcome is to limit theses losses.

Individual clubs are in different situations Yoss. Clubs will need to look after the club and the players as best they can given their individual scenarios and the advice given. A PC answer there but a true one all the same.

Regarding 'the best outcome is to limit losses'. Absolutely. But in some clubs cases the best outcome might be to get relegated by withdrawing if the financial package is not acceptable to provide a debt free league run. That's the reality as hard as it might be to stomach.

[total hoofball]

What happens if the government give the league the ok to go ahead but the clubs decide to cancel it? It will get messy with plenty of players looking for their contracted wages or at the least an agreement on their entitlements.
Unfortunately this is completely uncharted territory and there is going to be some loss for clubs and players. The best outcome is to limit theses losses.
Players are going to lose in the end, if they and the PFAI go around suing LOI clubs then those clubs en-masse will go out of business and at best re-form as lower budget semi-pro or even amateur entities resulting in no prospect of the same level of professional employment for the same players. All this talk from the PFAI confirms to me they know they are screwed unless the taxpayer bails out the LOI which isn't happening

[D24Saint]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0524/1140305-sadlier-fai-have-to-start-somewhere-for-playing-return/

[D24Saint]

https://m.independent.ie/incoming/all-players-and-staff-of-league-of-irelands-european-representatives-test-negative-for-covid-19-39239068.html

[vinnie]

Is this 4 team tournament for the 4 euro teams going to be anything other than pre-season training games? If Rovers v Bohs is a 7 goal thriller does it matter with no fans there, or if Derry beat Dundalk 5 nil, or vise-versa are we only getting match fitness from this. Will there be streams or live feeds we can watch, or is this just a testing of the water thing?

[Bucket]

I think the fact that it's on in Tallaght, not Abbotstown, means that it'll be on tv

[Yossarian]

I think the fact that it's on in Tallaght, not Abbotstown, means that it'll be on tv

Has this been confirmed?

[Bucket]

I wasn't confirming it, just going by what I had read in the papers over the past few weeks. I wasn't aware that it hadn't been confirmed!

[The Lilywhites]

Dundalk with a new membership scheme which is in response "to the loss of match night earnings and sponsorship".

https://www.dundalkfc.com/get-closer-dundalk-fc-launch-official-membership-scheme/

I'd have an issue with the advertisement of it as it states €15 per month on the promotional graphic. If you read down into the detail it says it excludes VAT, so it's actually €18.45 a month. Why not just be clear?!

It pretty much sounds like all our digital content is going behind a paywall, so not sure what will be left for supporters who can't afford that much per month.

It's dearer than a stand season ticket over the course of the year.

I know it's extraordinary times but it's still quite dear, and might do the opposite of the club's aim of "growing and improving the relationship between the club, our supporters and the local community".

Might have been better improving the existing digital content before jumping into this.

A proper membership scheme is long overdue by the club, though, so hopefully it takes off and is run professionally over a long period, unlike previous incarnations.

There has been no interaction with ST holders either which is on a slightly different note but disappointing all the same.

[pineapple stu]

Why would a membership fee have VAT on it?

[LOI101]

https://support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/205259549-How-does-VAT-work-on-Patreon-

Patreon levy VAT on all subscriptions by Europeans. I don't know enough about tax to know if it would be subject to VAT if Dundalk were administering it themselves.

[pineapple stu]

Weird.

Never heard of VAT being levied on, say, the Rovers 500 Club. Is that the case? Is it because Rovers is a members' club (so it is seen as membership, which is VAT exempt) and Dundalk is a private business?

What would happen if Dundalk just tried to set up a DD payment like you see charities do? (I presume Dundalk aren't a registered charity, though I think some LoI clubs might be)

[The Lilywhites]

They could have just factored in the VAT on the overall price and advertised that clearly.

I'd say it's no more than our new marketing guy trying to be clever.

[Bucket]

Will this new group of members have a seat on the board or any voting rights of some sorts?

[The Lilywhites]

Will this new group of members have a seat on the board or any voting rights of some sorts?

No. It's basically the existing digital content is going behind a paywall and for your subscription you get a mug, scarf, some shop discounts and a "monthly surprise" whatever that will be as well as access to member events (presumably Q&As).

[Bucket]

Still, no harm to have a supporters group gathered and ready, just in case.

[The Lilywhites]

Still, no harm to have a supporters group gathered and ready, just in case.

Without a doubt, a supporters club is needed.

It's long overdue, something like this, but the current financial state of the club means a lot of people won't sign up for what is just online content that supporters have been used to for years, at an annual cost of €221.

I don't see much different or new on offer for the near €20 a month. It's just putting the current content behind a paywall.

It's not going to create any rainy day fund, as a supporters club might. I'd imagine the revenue it raises will contribute towards the circa €60k wages on our 2 marketing people hired this year, which will help to justify their positions.

Some supporters see it as a move which makes the club look more professional. You can look at it 2 ways I suppose.

[LOI101]

They could have just factored in the VAT on the overall price and advertised that clearly.

I'd say it's no more than our new marketing guy trying to be clever.

It's nothing to do with Dundalk or their marketing guy. It's Patreon policy. I read on boards.ie last night that its envisaged that it will eventually move across to Dundalk's own website from Patreon.

I read up on this yesterday after saying I didn't know enough about it. There's approximately 75 different VAT rates across EU and VAT has to be levied at the rate in the subscriber's home country. It would be completely impracticable to advertise the price including VAT when it's unknown until the person filling in their details subscribes.

With complex admin like that involved you'd wonder at Dundalk wanting to put it on their own website rather than paying whatever it is Patreon charge. Granted most subscribers would be based in Ireland but there will be some abroad.

[The Lilywhites]

It's nothing to do with Dundalk or their marketing guy. It's Patreon policy. I read on boards.ie last night that its envisaged that it will eventually move across to Dundalk's own website from Patreon.

Don't think you need to go into such detail on VAT! :)

They could have charged €12.20 plus VAT which would result in €15 and advertise the €15 that way.

It's poorly advertised and misleading. It's the nightclub guy trying to be clever.

It's still dear whatever way you take it, but there's 125 sign-ups so that's good.

[The Lilywhites]

Interesting stuff from Neil O'Riordan.

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/5507913/league-of-ireland-return-repercussion-relegation-scrapped/amp/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebarweb&__twitter_impression=true

Main bits


If it cannot convince everyone, the FAI has indicated it is prepared to proceed with a competition featuring those who are prepared to come back.

The four clubs due to be in Europe - Dundalk, Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians and Derry City - are already pencilled in to play in a four-team tournament at the end of July.

They, and anyone else who wishes to return, could then participate in a mini-league to be played out behind closed doors.

But, crucially, SunSport understands there would be no relegation, removing the threat of going down for any club which decides it does not want to get back playing this year.

It is thought unlikely the First Division will return and, if it does, there would be no promotion on account of there being no relegation from the top flight.

Any curtailed competition - which would see players travel to matches in cars with an earlier proposal of two team buses binned - would have no influence on European places either.

They, instead, would be deferred until the 2021 campaign in which the four-series season would be split in two.

The first 18 games would be used to determine qualification for the 2021-22 Champions League and Europa League campaigns.

The second 18 games would be used to decide who would qualify for the 2022-23 European competitions.

[gufct]

Either all 20 clubs are treated equally or no way this should pass. Total disrespect to first division clubs

[2 Year Contract]

Who’s going to watch a stream of Sligo vs Waterford for example when the result is essentially meaningless? The only games of any worth would be Dundalk and Rovers' ones while every other club puts money into nothing with no European places up for grabs or relegation to fight. This proposal is a write off in my opinion. Not to mention the First Division being a division made up entirely of friendlies if it comes back.

[brendy_éire]

Either all 20 clubs are treated equally or no way this should pass. Total disrespect to first division clubs

Is it disrespectful? Are FD clubs willing to play this year? Probably not, unless the FAI come up with some extra cash.
If FD clubs aren't willing to play, and aren't being obliged to, does removing promotion/relegation for the 2020 season matter?

What the proposal is, is a way out of this situation, to get some semblance of a league up and running. Reading between the lines from various sources, UEFA are insisting that leagues make a decision on what their plan is to get restarted.
We, as a league, need to have our European slots allocated by June next year. This plan achieves that.

For 2020, it allows us to finish a league this year, with a champion. Clubs can play if they like, no worries if they don't.
For 2021, it allows us to have a standard season, sorts the European spots, and gets promotion/relegation back to usual.

I don't think it's perfect, but it's the best option I've seen so far.

[ForzaForth]

I thought the FAI had been taken over by the Visionary Group. Obviously not.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think it's perfect, but it's the best option I've seen so far.
Agreed. This is an awkward position to resolve, but you can't have a position where, say, Athlone Town or UCD could hold up the rest of the league because they're not ready to get back to things.

I don't know how it's all going to pan out - it seems a little bit like telling shops they can re-open but none of their customers are allowed in - but I think it's better than the alternatives at this stage.

[Martinho II]

Fair enough but for the ones that dont/or cant play where is the goverment assistance in this especially if there is going to be no first division this year? Clubs have to pay rates,water charges ,phone charges,electricity normally and Im sure a one or two of these costs arent avoidable at all which is rather unfair imo. Clubs are going to be out of cash a good bit especially with no gate receipts, bar sales etc. If there is going to be a way out the government should introduce that they dont charge tax on ie gate receipts until the breakout of the virus . There has being no communication once from the FAI which says it all about their attitude.

Plus the sooner we have a new government the better so we can get that corrupt SR out as sports minister once and for all as hes a rugby head and always will be!

[pineapple stu]

Government is assisting with wage subsidies.

Water, phone, electricity and so on should be greatly reduced if the club isn't operating.

But Government can't assist everyone with everything unfortunately.

[Bucket]

If First Division clubs don't play, it will be terrible pr. It'll tarnish the LOI reputation even further as the only summer league that's cancelled. No promotion/relegation is nonsense

[oriel]

Don't think you need to go into such detail on VAT! :)

They could have charged €12.20 plus VAT which would result in €15 and advertise the €15 that way.

It's poorly advertised and misleading. It's the nightclub guy trying to be clever.

It's still dear whatever way you take it, but there's 125 sign-ups so that's good.


This is a common complaint from DFC fans that you don't hear from Rovers and Bohs, both who we are miles behind on the membership route, as essentially we are only starting this now, granted there were many previous versions, but these two clubs have been doing it for year, plus you don't hear complaints like we have, 'what do I get for my €18.45 etc per month, this is supporting a club, full stop.

Ps this is not directed at you, its more to the attitude of some Dundalk fans.

Ps its over 150 now, after only 3 days, so not bad going.

[The Lilywhites]

This is a common complaint from DFC fans that you don't hear from Rovers and Bohs, both who we are miles behind on the membership route, as essentially we are only starting this now, granted there were many previous versions, but these two clubs have been doing it for year, plus you don't hear complaints like we have, 'what do I get for my €18.45 etc per month, this is supporting a club, full stop.

Ps this is not directed at you, its more to the attitude of some Dundalk fans.

Ps its over 150 now, after only 3 days, so not bad going.

Agree with that. But if we were in 2012, I'd have no problem paying that price or more. Any year pre 2016/17, no issue.

As it is, the Americans are p***ing millions up against the wall and there are players on 2k+ a week, while supporters facilities aren't even a consideration (the Fastfix guys did nothing on that either).

Is my €4.26 a week really going to make a difference given the astronomical wage bill currently?

There is nothing in the package that is worth the cost. It's basically paying for extra interviews and a podcast.

If the club was on its knees or our budget was low in overall terms, it would be far different. Or if it was a proper members club with supporters having an input.

For years now we've abandoned all idea of fundraising. When was our last fundraiser of any sort?! There hasn't even been a POTY awards dinner since 2014!

The club have no interest in that so I'm not sure why they've gone down this road now with media content and then tried to paint it as strengthening links with supporters and the community!!

Personally, BT/Premier is €4.60 a week for 7 channels. To be honest I'd rather keep that than use that money to pay for a few interviews etc.

It's alright for those on the gravy train in Oriel to say they found a good balance on pricing but unfortunately a lot of fans just won't be able to afford it.

Hopefully the website and social media as they are aren't left totally deserted as they've been excellent for years.

[Martinho II]

I cant believe that a club the size of Dundalk FC dont have a supporters club. Is there any particular reason or is this a protest or what?

[redobit]

Is it disrespectful? Are FD clubs willing to play this year? Probably not, unless the FAI come up with some extra cash.
If FD clubs aren't willing to play, and aren't being obliged to, does removing promotion/relegation for the 2020 season matter?

What the proposal is, is a way out of this situation, to get some semblance of a league up and running. Reading between the lines from various sources, UEFA are insisting that leagues make a decision on what their plan is to get restarted.
We, as a league, need to have our European slots allocated by June next year. This plan achieves that.

For 2020, it allows us to finish a league this year, with a champion. Clubs can play if they like, no worries if they don't.
For 2021, it allows us to have a standard season, sorts the European spots, and gets promotion/relegation back to usual.

I don't think it's perfect, but it's the best option I've seen so far.

Play if you like ... really!!!. That's putting it back into individual clubs laps, its almost as if some clubs aren't sure if they want to play football. All clubs want to play football this season. It shouldnt be up to clubs to decide if they 'like' it or not. The FAI should be making things work for all clubs not have the European spots sorted and whoever else happens to like it. The more things change the more they stay the same.

[oriel]

I cant believe that a club the size of Dundalk FC dont have a supporters club. Is there any particular reason or is this a protest or what?

Its a good question, also when you consider our last visit to Tallaght for the 2-3 defeat, we took just under 1k to the game. What I mean by this is, there are probably around 50 unofficial 'supporter groups' all running busses from pubs or clubs or work places to bigger games , or maybe just in our case by whattsapp group. All of these groups would feel as if they are close to the action, yet none are associated directly to the club.

Maybe its due to the change of direction the club took with the private local ownership pre P6, then the latter taking over. You could argue the club is effectively being remotely managed out of Chicago in terms of final decisions and payments, and within oriel park for the small team that of 5 or 6 that run the day to day.

In this case maybe there is no room for a supporters club, but it has to be noted the amount of volunteers is still very active, one group in particular who man the main stand, and again are another one who go to every away game, they actually overcharge on bus trips and give back twice yearly to local charities on the profits made from their away games.

Maybe its the way things are now, different groups, do different things.

[Bucket]

If there are that many supporters that are active around the club it's surprising that none of them united all the groups into an official supporters club.
A lot of Dundalk fans seem to complain about Oriel's facilities, I would have thought this issue would be enough.
Potentially, a supporters club could take over the lease on Oriel and rent it back to the club, re-investing profits into improving facilities for fans and apply for sports capital grants.

[ToberonaTornado]

If there are that many supporters that are active around the club it's surprising that none of them united all the groups into an official supporters club.
A lot of Dundalk fans seem to complain about Oriel's facilities, I would have thought this issue would be enough.
Potentially, a supporters club could take over the lease on Oriel and rent it back to the club, re-investing profits into improving facilities for fans and apply for sports capital grants.

Nice idea though They couldn't.Peak6 own all.

Supporters of Dundalk of an older persuasion have mistrust in supporters clubs and trusts.
Maybe now we can change that because we have a more youth based support but a lot of the old support would be,and always have been, reluctant to give cash to the club because it went missing in the past.

[D24Saint]

I cant believe that a club the size of Dundalk FC dont have a supporters club. Is there any particular reason or is this a protest or what?

I don't think supporters clubs are a good thing for LOI clubs they tend to become clicks and self serving.Id be more of a fan of supporters trusts. The trusts from my experience can be more independent and can choose to support club or supporter activities as they see fit.

[Neish]

I don't think supporters clubs are a good thing for LOI clubs they tend to become clicks and self serving.Id be more of a fan of supporters trusts. The trusts from my experience can be more independent and can choose to support club or supporter activities as they see fit.

I have read some ridiculous comments on her but this takes the biscuit, I doubt any LOI club would survive very long without supporters club. I have been actively involved is a number of different supporter clubs with Harps, help & talked with other supporter clubs relating to Harps, and talked to member of Supporters clubs from other clubs. Never have I got the clique feel from them.

I don't see how a supporters club can become a clique but a trust can't. Cliques are a result of the people in a club trust etc, not the thing the people are in.

[The Lilywhites]

Supporters of Dundalk of an older persuasion have mistrust in supporters clubs and trusts.
Maybe now we can change that because we have a more youth based support but a lot of the old support would be,and always have been, reluctant to give cash to the club because it went missing in the past.

This, yeah. I can't remember when the old supporters club disbanded, maybe when Matthews came in, although their name was still on the bar licence for a long time.

The Trust, started around 2006, was good for a time but had its issues.

Those in charge decided to take it upon themselves to disband it and get into bed with the club when Fastfix took over.

Some of that committee are still actively involved in the club, but a lot of good volunteers seemed to disappear in recent years for whatever reason.

As I said above, the club have abandoned fundraisers for years now, probably going back to around 2014.

Certainly in recent times, the club appear to see fundraisers as not worth the hassle. When you're spending 60k+ a week, the money fundraisers would bring in wouldn't make much of a difference (that's how they seem to view it anyway).

Given the financial losses shown for 2019, the current spending can't go on for much longer, but there doesn't seem to be any appetite for a supporters club / Trust - probably for the reasons you say.

[D24Saint]

I have read some ridiculous comments on her but this takes the biscuit, I doubt any LOI club would survive very long without supporters club. I have been actively involved is a number of different supporter clubs with Harps, help & talked with other supporter clubs relating to Harps, and talked to member of Supporters clubs from other clubs. Never have I got the clique feel from them.

I don't see how a supporters club can become a clique but a trust can't. Cliques are a result of the people in a club trust etc, not the thing the people are in.


Don't overreact whatever you do ! We have obviously had very different experiences when it comes to supporters club/supporters groups. In my time following the league I seen a few come and go, they mainly make banners, do a lot of shouting a set of flares and contribute little else. There is a place for that but the Pats Patron scheme has done infinitely more since its inception. They don't directly organise displays at matches for example, but have funded repairs to our stand behind the goal, sponsored youth team kits, GPS fitness trackers etc

[Martinho II]

I know over a decade ago we had a supporters trust for my club which I was rep for a time which sorted out long term debt issues from peoples dds mthly. Think that has disbanded now as I dont hear anything about it now so assume its all under control.
As for a supporters club Longford Town FC had an active supporters club which ran buses,car boot sales ,table quizzes plus prediction competition and club shop but over the last eight years they only fundraise with car boot sales on bank holidays and club shop. Section O(vocal crowd) which I am part of took over running of buses from Supporters Club but theres not as much interest anymore. With direction Supporters Club are going they seem more interested in charity aspect of it and running of the club shop and not with the further development of the ground.
When our ground was redeveloped nearly 20 years ago there was talk that there would be shelter over the Section O side of the ground but that never came to fruitation.If theres the timings right Section O have a lot of great ideas for fundraising and would like to take over the Supporters Club running aspect of it.
Thats another days battle!
I know organisation of fans groups take time and sometimes go through lean periods but if there the timings I know a lot of the lads would like to give the running of our supporters club a go ourselves and see if we can do it better as the running of the supporters club is paper based and is not up with the times these days.

[D24Saint]

A big Swedish pharmaceutical AstraZeneca has signed a deal with Bill gates to produce two billion oxford vaccines in inhaler form. There could be light at the end of the tunnel in this mess.

[D24Saint]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0608/1146233-cummins-pessimistic-all-loi-clubs-will-want-to-return/

[The Lilywhites]

Seems silly that so much importance and publicity (not to mention the costs) is surrounding the testing of the 4 European clubs, yet all other clubs can return to training next Monday with no testing done whatsoever!

[placid casual]

Pardon me folks for asking the difficult questions, but what's people's views on the supposed 2 or 3 clubs holding up the return to playing. Is there any sense of "fek them, we'll play anyway", or is it required to offer incentives to get them to come back, or what? The league will die a certain death if the games can't begin again this season, surely everyone in LOI circles knows that. I'm sure someone would say that if Rovers or Dundalk were near the bottom of the league they'd want to cancel the season as well, but I'd be mortified if Rovers would do that move. Any thoughts?

[redobit]

Pardon me folks for asking the difficult questions, but what's people's views on the supposed 2 or 3 clubs holding up the return to playing. Is there any sense of "fek them, we'll play anyway", or is it required to offer incentives to get them to come back, or what? The league will die a certain death if the games can't begin again this season, surely everyone in LOI circles knows that. I'm sure someone would say that if Rovers or Dundalk were near the bottom of the league they'd want to cancel the season as well, but I'd be mortified if Rovers would do that move. Any thoughts?

I dont know if 'holding things up' is the right term there. It makes it sound like they are deliberately holding up a LOI return. You can only assume that any club not fully onboard yet is just looking for assurances that BHD will not mean that they incur debt or they get a fair crack at the season. Hardly unreasonable requests tbh.