Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[Yossarian]

Pardon me folks for asking the difficult questions, but what's people's views on the supposed 2 or 3 clubs holding up the return to playing. Is there any sense of "fek them, we'll play anyway", or is it required to offer incentives to get them to come back, or what? The league will die a certain death if the games can't begin again this season, surely everyone in LOI circles knows that. I'm sure someone would say that if Rovers or Dundalk were near the bottom of the league they'd want to cancel the season as well, but I'd be mortified if Rovers would do that move. Any thoughts?

My opinion is that if there are one or two clubs who don’t want to resume then the league should resume for this season without those participating. At least you would have champions and European slots awarded and there could be no relegation so those clubs who choose not to participate don’t get unduly punished.
I think the proposal that was aired last week for some kind of informal competition that doesn’t award a title or European spots is nonsense. How could you justify paying full time players to play in a friendly tournament.

[Mr A]

That would be a friendly tournament for literally everyone but the clubs competing for Europe though.

[Bucket]

If clubs can't fulfill fixtures, the opposition gets three points. If a club then finishes bottom, they should be relegated.
Clubs in the First Division have wage bills too. These player contracts were signed when promotion to the Premier was the ambition. To change the rules now would be outrageous.
The league was temporarily suspended, not cancelled outright.

[Martinho II]

Whos the three clubs that are objecting to it I wonder? I imagine Waterford would be one of them?

[D24Saint]

Whos the three clubs that are objecting to it I wonder? I imagine Waterford would be one of them?

If the numbers don’t add up then I’d imagine our owner would be dead set against participating.

[El-Pietro]

I don't see how any club can be eager to play without crowds. It doesn't make financial sense in Ireland. This isn't the Premier League or Serie A with millions aavailable va television broadcasts that can cover the costs. LoI clubs will lose money if they play without crowds. Unless the FAI or some other organisation is willing to make up the losses then how can we afford to play? I have no idea if Cork City are one of the teams in question but it wouldn't surprise me.

[total hoofball]

Pardon me folks for asking the difficult questions, but what's people's views on the supposed 2 or 3 clubs holding up the return to playing.
Likely it's more than just 2 or 3. Sligo, Cork and Drogheda are publicly skeptical of the proposal and it's financial viability and Waterford/Pats/Harps/rest of the First Division seem to be keeping quiet awaiting Thursday meeting to see if the proposals are an actual runner

At the minute it's only 5 of 19 clubs who are definitely wanting to go back to closed doors football, Euro clubs and Shels

[redobit]

If clubs can't fulfill fixtures, the opposition gets three points. If a club then finishes bottom, they should be relegated.
Clubs in the First Division have wage bills too. These player contracts were signed when promotion to the Premier was the ambition. To change the rules now would be outrageous.
The league was temporarily suspended, not cancelled outright.

Such bull. If clubs can't be guaranteed financial stability then they wont return, why would they?

What if 3 or 4 PL clubs decide not to return cause its putting their future in jeopardy, what do they do then ... relegate all the clubs who dont play.

Its a tricky situation, hopefully some good leadership from FAI. This is the new FAIs first big hurdle and if they cant sort this out to the satisfactory of all clubs in the LOI, then they will be on the back foot before they have even started.

[joey B]

If 2,3,4 or more clubs decide its not viable to come back its hard to see what can realistically be done,anything other than a season with promotion and relegation as usual will be a farce and not worth anyone coming back for,we're still seeing the affects of JD'S FAI,no money for anything and the laughing stock of Europe if we can't get back.

[pineapple stu]

From the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jun/09/stoke-scrap-manchester-united-friendly-after-oneill-tests-positive-for-covid-19) today -


Stoke were forced to cancel a friendly against Manchester United at the last minute after learning that manager, Michael O’Neill, had tested positive for coronavirus. The Championship side had already travelled to United’s Carrington training ground before the match was hastily called off.

Obviously England is in a worse place than we are with regards covid - though they have been improving - but this does just raise another issue about getting back to playing which hasn't come up yet. How many games will be postponed for reasons like this, and how much will that cost LoI clubs? I know we're down to tiny numbers of cases, almost all either health care workers or meat packers - but it just takes one case and this happens.

[oriel]

I don't see how any club can be eager to play without crowds. It doesn't make financial sense in Ireland. This isn't the Premier League or Serie A with millions aavailable va television broadcasts that can cover the costs. LoI clubs will lose money if they play without crowds. Unless the FAI or some other organisation is willing to make up the losses then how can we afford to play? I have no idea if Cork City are one of the teams in question but it wouldn't surprise me.

There was a little piece reported last week, one of the Irish papers covered it, that UEFA were going to look into funding for the smaller leagues to help them during this, we would be in that bracket, no idea how much or when.

[El-Pietro]

There was a little piece reported last week, one of the Irish papers covered it, that UEFA were going to look into funding for the smaller leagues to help them during this, we would be in that bracket, no idea how much or when.

Sure, if there is funding in place and it makes sense then fine lets go ahead, but I don't think clubs are going to jump in without seeing guarantees, and specific numbers.

[total hoofball]

Such bull. If clubs can't be guaranteed financial stability then they wont return, why would they?

What if 3 or 4 PL clubs decide not to return cause its putting their future in jeopardy, what do they do then ... relegate all the clubs who dont play.

For example if 6 clubs from each division vote to return and the other 7 clubs decide not to return then to avoid the whole promotion/relegation saga that it causing conflict in other countries would be to resume with both divisions merged with the 12 clubs who want to play and then when fans can attend games again hopefully in 2021 then plan for the LOI return in the 2022 season to the two 10 teams division with the bottom 9/10 teams relegated back in the First Division. I'm sure there will be problems but I can't see closed doors football with two tiny divisions and no promotion or relegation ever working

[Martinho II]

From chatting to one of the Section O lads on our messager we reckon that unless theres promotion and relegation why play at all and I would imagine a lot of the other loi clubs are in the same boat.
I know with generous sponsors with us we dont have to rely as much as gate receipts so I suppose each club would have their own set of circumstances.

[redobit]

For example if 6 clubs from each division vote to return and the other 7 clubs decide not to return then to avoid the whole promotion/relegation saga that it causing conflict in other countries would be to resume with both divisions merged with the 12 clubs who want to play and then when fans can attend games again hopefully in 2021 then plan for the LOI return in the 2022 season to the two 10 teams division with the bottom 9/10 teams relegated back in the First Division. I'm sure there will be problems but I can't see closed doors football with two tiny divisions and no promotion or relegation ever working

Anything is a possibility TH. Trouble with drastic changes like that, it means you really have moved away completely from the competition that has 5 games played. You would really have to start the league again in a case like that and I dont think Shams fans would be too happy.

[vinnie]

I'd be happy enough with starting again from scratch, why wouldn't I be, to be honest at the moment I'd be happy with starting at 2005 levels with 8 points deducted just to get to a game again, lets not forget wether you're club is shít or good at the moment, we all want to get back to watch games, but only if we can all get back together and safely



Anything is a possibility TH. Trouble with drastic changes like that, it means you really have moved away completely from the competition that has 5 games played. You would really have to start the league again in a case like that and I dont think Shams fans would be too happy.

[gufct]

Brief statement from FAI. Sadly, the word ‘productive’ hasn’t come up in early enquiries about today’s events. ‘All over the place’ was a more cutting description. Daniel McDonnell on twitter

[Lim till i die]

Meet the new boss.

Same as the old boss.

[total hoofball]

After today's shambles I'll be amazed if this is 4 team tournament doesn't turn out to be the only LOI football seen for the rest of 2020

[gufct]

The fai are flat broke and have no revenue due to pandemic what do people expect. 75% of clubs can’t exist without matchday revenue .

[D24Saint]

The fai are flat broke and have no revenue due to pandemic what do people expect. 75% of clubs can’t exist without matchday revenue .

The vibe from the FAI seems to be to eat the losses and play on regardless. We all want football back ASAP but not to the long term harm of our clubs. The teams that have Europe to aim for should be allowed train and play a mini tournament but the rest of the clubs shouldn’t be forced back against their wishes.

[placid casual]

What's the opposite of the phrase "A rising tide lifts all boats".

[Eminence Grise]

Iceberg dead ahead?

[D24Saint]

Iceberg dead ahead?

Bless all souls on the SS John Delaney.

[Kiki Balboa]

So are we going to be the only league in Europe not to play football in 2020 ?

[The Lilywhites]

Talks took place tonight between FAI & the four European clubs - as the idea they would give up a portion of UEFA prizemoney to facilitate a restart is now being actively debated. More on this in @IndoSport tomorrow (as the saga continues)

This is being mentioned in regard to the Irish League too!

[Nesta99]

Under the circumstances sharing and caring might be the only way forward. It might even build some goodwill when it comes to supporting future projects. Whether you can read too much in to Shane Ross's comments but he seemed quite emphatic about prioritising support for 'summer based' competitions and those who rely almost entirely on gate receipts and where livlihoods are at stake. If ye didnt know better it sounded like he was laying the ground work for the shock of LoI getting the most significant support. The GAA could wrangle money out of any broke government but they have significant cash reserves as an organisation that can pull them through with or without crowds and of course they are all amatuer after all. Rugby is feeling a relative pinch due to centralised contracts but still have enough in the pot just about. Olympics being deferred means that the elite athlete money that usually ramps up as the Olympic cycle progresses could see a deferral of some funding. So who knows...it would be some fun if the FAI/LoI got a big slice of a small pie - whether relevant it would be a bit of a rap on the knuckles if LoI rather than FAI had the funding directed to them. What about deferring pension payments due as a wedge of that could go a bit. Maybe the various investigations might be a lttle bit more vigorous in their findings and subsequent sanction - long shot!

What's the opposite of the phrase "A rising tide lifts all boats", as per the quay in Dundalk its No matter the tide firmly stuck in mud! (that the nearby sewage plant has contributed to...)

As an aside, the shift on the use of facemasks in places where social distancing is difficult is actually a help to fans returning especially if there is reduced capacities or certain areas of ground closed off. The numbers are positive as pubs and clubs scramble to get reopened. With games in outdoor spaces in comparison and the change in tone on resurgance and how it would be managed differently does help things.

[D24Saint]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0614/1147379-pfai-issue-stark-warning-to-clubs-who-could-opt-out/

Cant stand that plonker, reckon he should keep his trap shut at the moment and not threaten clubs who are in a tricky situation.

[Lim till i die]

And from the office across the hall comes the stick..

A few new clowns but still the same old circus

[Yossarian]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0614/1147379-pfai-issue-stark-warning-to-clubs-who-could-opt-out/

Cant stand that plonker, reckon he should keep his trap shut at the moment and not threaten clubs who are in a tricky situation.

I agree with your assessment of him, but I do think in this instance he has a point. Players who could be playing but can’t because their club has decided they won’t participate will still be entitled to their contract being fulfilled or at least agreement on some settlement.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0614/1147379-pfai-issue-stark-warning-to-clubs-who-could-opt-out/

Cant stand that plonker, reckon he should keep his trap shut at the moment and not threaten clubs who are in a tricky situation.

What has he said that's wrong? Clubs have to obey contract law? What an ******* for even thinking about saying as much, looking out for the people it's his job to represent, who does he think he is?

Theres no point denying some clubs think that no football means no paying the players when that simply isn't true so they clearly need reminding that that's the case

[Lim till i die]

No football does mean no paying the players for most clubs though.

[Yossarian]

No football does mean no paying the players for most clubs though.

It doesn’t invalidate their contract though.

[Lim till i die]

It doesn't.

But they still wont be paid.

[John83]

It doesn’t invalidate their contract though.
I'm kind of surprised there isn't some boilerplate force majeure clause in the contracts. Well, not in this league: I'm sure most of the clubs have legal representation on a par with Lionel Hutz.

[Bucket]

Is Fanny Gavin still claiming credit for creating this atmosphere for the clubs?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

No football does mean no paying the players for most clubs though.

No games may mean they don't get paid in that the clubs don't pay them. It doesn't mean that the clubs aren't still obliged to pay them, which is the issue at hand.

[Bunny Kelly]

While players are entitled to what their contract says, if they try to force it through then clubs/league goes bust & they are long term unemployed?

It's not like the majority of the players in this league can go elsewhere to get paid to play football. Players are getting screwed but given the situation Im not sure how much pressure they can put on clubs

[Martinho II]

If Fran Gavin was in Gilloleys boots would peoples opinions of Gavin now change?

[pineapple stu]

Bit of a moot question as he's not in Gilhooley's boots I guess.

Where does the €350 covid payment come into this? Are players getting this?

I imagine part-time players with regular employment would hardly get it twice? And amateur players - thinking UCD students - probably aren't entitled to it either? But then there must be some players who are on a pay increase as a result of it?

Does it count towards the amount the clubs owe to the players? Again, of course, this is complicated by the slightly unusual nature of a football contract.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

While players are entitled to what their contract says, if they try to force it through then clubs/league goes bust & they are long term unemployed?

It's not like the majority of the players in this league can go elsewhere to get paid to play football. Players are getting screwed but given the situation Im not sure how much pressure they can put on clubs

Being completely honest if you're a player and you're options are

1) Force clubs to go under by asking for the money you're legally entitled to
2) Let clubs off and go with no money between covid payment ending (August ish) and February
3) Try force the clubs into playing in the hope that you might at least get some of the money you're owed and get to play football

You've to remember it's the clubs at the bottom of the Premier that are doing this, if they go under they'll probably just reform just in the first division and the first division clubs will come up next year so your chances of getting paid if the clubs go under aren't changing much.

Option 3 is a good compromise but clubs are banking on players not going with option 1 in an attempt to avoid option 3 and force option 2 which works out best for them in the short term. I know if I were a player I'd be calling their bluff anyway.

[Lim till i die]

The point is it's not a bluff though.

What would be a bluff would be players threatening to fold clubs if they don't pay.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

The point is it's not a bluff though.

What would be a bluff would be players threatening to fold clubs if they don't pay.

A bluff isn't restricted to a one way thing, the clubs are calling the players bluff that they'll go to court to get the money while the players are calling the clubs bluff that they're willing to take that risk of potentially going to court.

Either way though its seriously damaging to the league that clubs are trying to get out of paying players.

[total hoofball]

Either way though its seriously damaging to the league that clubs are trying to get out of paying players.
Clubs not wanting to trade recklessly without essential gate receipt income means they are trying to get out of paying players?

These clubs look like they are getting even more grief from the PFAI than genuine player wage swindlers like Athlone and Bray were doing in recent years

[Lim till i die]

A bluff isn't restricted to a one way thing, the clubs are calling the players bluff that they'll go to court to get the money while the players are calling the clubs bluff that they're willing to take that risk of potentially going to court.

The idea that there are missed wages to be got from taking a LoI club to court for them is pure fantasy.

Gilhooley might as well write to Santa for it.

There'll be no going to court.

If it's one or two players with a beef at a club they'll take whatever few bob they can get as a settlement the closer it gets to Xmas.

If it's a squad of players with a beef and they want to take it to court??

Fold up the tent. Start a new company. Problem solved.

It's probably not very nice.

But it's the reality.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Clubs not wanting to trade recklessly without essential gate receipt income means they are trying to get out of paying players?

These clubs look like they are getting even more grief from the PFAI than genuine player wage swindlers like Athlone and Bray were doing in recent years

The clubs that are skeptical about going back haven't even attempted to negotiate deferral of a portion of wages, or wage cut with players. It's clear as day that the finances are just an easy out for not returning.

Because the PFAI aren't being cut off at the knees by the FAI and the player representatives are pushing it now.


The idea that there are missed wages to be got from taking a LoI club to court for them is pure fantasy.

Gilhooley might as well write to Santa for it.

There'll be no going to court.

If it's one or two players with a beef at a club they'll take whatever few bob they can get as a settlement the closer it gets to Xmas.

If it's a squad of players with a beef and they want to take it to court??

Fold up the tent. Start a new company. Problem solved.

It's probably not very nice.

But it's the reality.

And that's the point the players are making, as easy as it is to just fold up the club and start again it's a pain in the hole for any clubs with any sort of fixed assets or any European aspirations or that are holding out because they don't want to be relegated because if they fold they'll be relegated anyway.

[Calcio Jack]

Time to throw Pats and Kelleher out of the league-

[Kiki Balboa]

This is genuinely one of the most depressing episodes in my time following the league. Yes the FAI is a mess, but Seeing senior football teams not trying to play football just kills me.


What is the point of this? Do Sligo and Pats not have to honour their contracts? When the 350euro payment ends, what will their players do? If football is sanctioned to be played in August with fans, will we have to wait another month for teams to get their fitness back?

So many questions, but I feel like certain teams just want the league cancelled, and try to start up again next year.... baiscally dragging everyone down to their level, destroying any progress made in the last couple of years.

[Mr A]

Not sure that's true. I think the vast, vast majority of clubs want to play, TBH there's only one I am unsure on. But clubs can't return on the hope something will turn up down the line, we could kill a whole bunch of clubs that way.

[pineapple stu]

What is the point of this? Do Sligo and Pats not have to honour their contracts? When the 350euro payment ends, what will their players do? If football is sanctioned to be played in August with fans, will we have to wait another month for teams to get their fitness back?
In fairness, the same could be said of lots of other industries. When the 350 payment ends, what will bar staff do? A lot of people will probably be out of work, and a lot of pubs will probably close.

It's obviously really unfortunate, but there's no reason football clubs should be so much different to every other industry.

Clubs can't operate if fans are banned; something needs to be worked out. And it's really tricky to get something suitable.