Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[Nesta99]

There are some great fundraising efforts going on at Pats. The club have launched Patreon site with videos and interview with ex players. It is bringing in over a grand a month at the moment and a fan has started a go fund me that has already passed its target of seven thousand. Is there something going on at other clubs ? I read something about Bohs selling bricks from their dressing room.

That'd be at least the third time Bohs will have flogged their ground, Brick by brick this time literally.

[pineapple stu]

Latest update on restrictions (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/coronavirus-ireland-lockdown-to-be-extended-for-vast-majority-reports-say/ar-BB13j9Fn?li=BBr5KbJ&ocid=mailsignout) - all hypothetical at the moment, but I'd say it's based on a good source and seems rational:


It is believed Taoiseach Leo Varadkar will announce the lifting of restrictions in three phases, with the first seeing few changes to existing rules but the second allowing more people to return to work.

During the second phase, people will be allowed to return to their workplace if social distancing two-metre rules can be observed.

This may allow fast-food chains to re-open but only for takeaway meals.

A third phase is expected by early June which would allow those who have limited interactions with colleagues to return to work.

However, it's understood those who can work remotely may be asked to do so until September.
It's hard to see how footballers would come under those phases to be honest. Is the LoI now on hiatus until September?

[D24Saint]

Latest update on restrictions (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/coronavirus-ireland-lockdown-to-be-extended-for-vast-majority-reports-say/ar-BB13j9Fn?li=BBr5KbJ&ocid=mailsignout) - all hypothetical at the moment, but I'd say it's based on a good source and seems rational:


It's hard to see how footballers would come under those phases to be honest. Is the LoI now on hiatus until September?

If that is the new plan the pretence of a June restart for the league should be dropped ASAP.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I can’t see the live streaming angle working. It would only be beneficial to some clubs if all streaming revenue was distributed from a communal pot and I’d say that’s a non runner. I’d suspect that Quinn is just stalling to see what the government, Fifa/Uefa will do for the league. The unfortunate thing is that in unprecedented times we have been found to have no options to continue, if normality can’t resume either can the LOI.

Viable or not it has to be looked at to determine if it is or not you can't just dismiss it or jump straight into it. So the FAI are doing the right thing by putting every option on the table.

It'd worth looking into anyway with a view to potential use in the future. Might not be viable to do just now with all the other factors at play but at least by the end of this every club will have an idea of the work and funds needed to do it in the future which could be useful with regards to future TV deals.

[Nesta99]

Good piece in the Dundalk Democrat where the CEO has outlined the options and mentioned a few thing they were exploring, one being live streaming. The only possible way that football return even behind closed doors is if anyone involved is tested before and regularly after - I think it was mentioned already. Thats a good chunk of lab capacity and cost for clubs. Pity the rapid testing system developed is such a hit or miss with results and it could have been a big help. We are all hoping for a return asap but we may be without some clubs by the time of a restart without some support and coming up with an alternative to gate receipt income. Any ideas bar live streaming and gofundme?

Its at times like this that you realise the importance of membership type schemes as crucial generally consistant income and its undoubtedly missed by Dundalk FC!

[Mr A]

Maybe we just wait until we can come back properly?

I see no upside whatsoever to the behind closed doors option. Putting players and their families at risk, feck all income, it will look and sound rubbish even if streamed, frankly it's a dreadful, dreadful idea and it worries me that anyone in the FAI thinks it's remotely a runner.

If we rush back and cause a cluster or clusters it would rightly make us look like irresponsible clowns.

[pineapple stu]

France bans all sporting events, even those behind closed doors, until September. (https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0428/1135387-french-football-season-over-rugby-likely-to-follow/)

That's a big step

[Seagull]

From the Indo, don't think it's paywalled.
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/temperature-checks-training-limits-and-covid-19-regulator-league-of-ireland-behind-closed-doors-proposal-revealed-39164629.html

[oldfan]

Will all players have to keep 2 metres from each other😳

[John83]

Will all players have to keep 2 metres from each other

Platini would be happy. He'd finally get his non-contact sport.

[Mr_Parker]

From the Indo, don't think it's paywalled.
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/temperature-checks-training-limits-and-covid-19-regulator-league-of-ireland-behind-closed-doors-proposal-revealed-39164629.html

That FAI document is a cut and paste job from other leagues. Where on earth did they get the idea that they need 20 ballboys!

[D24Saint]

It is encouring to see the FAI make an effort and explore options to get football going again. I cant see it being vialbe but still its more professional to have a discussion on the matter and have the clubs involved in the decision. Its a good sign for the future.

[Mr A]

TBH it's a shambles.

Players training in groups of five and maintaining social distancing. What's that going to do to standards? We will have a subset of fans paying a fraction of the normal price to watch worse football in empty venues.

They never address the elephant in the room that football is a contact sport.

Also, the HSE decide who gets tested, not the FAI so knowing who is infected is impossible, especially given many show no symptoms.

Any number of other holes in it but there's better things to be at.

It's not remotely good enough, let's hope it's just a bit of naivety from the new regime. But I find it very worrying indeed.

[D24Saint]

TBH it's a shambles.

Players training in groups of five and maintaining social distancing. What's that going to do to standards? We will have a subset of fans paying a fraction of the normal price to watch worse football in empty venues.

They never address the elephant in the room that football is a contact sport.

Also, the HSE decide who gets tested, not the FAI so knowing who is infected is impossible, especially given many show no symptoms.

Any number of other holes in it but there's better things to be at.

It's not remotely good enough, let's hope it's just a bit of naivety from the new regime. But I find it very worrying indeed.

I don’t find the proposals practical or cost effective, it’s just encouraging to see a debate on the matter. It’s better to have conference calls with stakeholders and proposals to discuss rather decrees issued from the football reich chancellor heir Delaney.

[pineapple stu]

I'd say a fair few players wouldn't be overly happy with those proposals either. Are they free to walk away from their contracts in that case? I don't know if they could argue that there'd be a health risk and so the terms have changed.

I agree it's good to see debate alright. The hope now is the right course of action is taken - and it probably needs to be a unanimous decision. But I don't think those proposals are feasible tbh.

[Real ale Madrid]

These proposals are not feasible in the current climate but who knows how the landscape will look at the start of September. If social distancing is here to stay are all forms of contact sport out until a vaccine is found? That could be 2 to 3 years away before a vaccine is a. found, b. mass produced and c. government procured and distributed. At some stage there will have to be exceptions to social distancing which will increase risk but as long as that risk is managed to an acceptable level. I don't see any harm in exploring a way forward in a few months time - the sooner they can agree something the sooner they can start planning.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/soccer/--996619.html

Things like this though are reasons why it's good to explore all options. Looking into playing behind closed doors leads to looking into streaming games which had lead to a company enquiring about the rights to do the streaming.

Personally I don't think games behind closed doors is a runner at all but it had to be looked into.

[Martinho II]

Another thing with playing behind closed doors is clubs will take a massive hit on programs that they produce.I just can see clubs taking a financial hit on programs as fans will only buy a program for woteva game they attend. I think the logisitical step is to write off the season completely and wait till the winter imo.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Another thing with playing behind closed doors is clubs will take a massive hit on programs that they produce.I just can see clubs taking a financial hit on programs as fans will only buy a program for woteva game they attend. I think the logisitical step is to write off the season completely and wait till the winter imo.

To try force structure on a completely fluid situation is idiotic and a recipe for disaster.


I'll use this example to illustrate why
If the government came out and said right we want to do 10k tests a day admitting that it's optimistic but only managed to do 9k would you prefer that or they be "realistic" and say they want 4k but manage to do 5k but can't go any higher because they were realistic so didn't allow for capacity to facilitate the optimistic outcome.

I know which I'd prefer and it's the same principle here

[pineapple stu]

How much money do clubs realistically make on programmes anyway?

I certainly wouldn't be writing off the season because people can't buy a match programme.

[ToberonaTornado]

Football without fans.........etc

The novelty of streaming - it will pass fast i reckon.

Was it 2003 when we played 2 seasons in one year? Could be a runner.

[Mr A]

For FHFC virtually every income stream is either badly hit or else completely wiped out by behind closed doors. Even our fundraisers involve the majority of money being returned on match nights. We do make a fair bit from the programme BTW. Not huge but not insignificant either in a league where every little helps. And no programme could mean programme advertisers seeking refunds.

[D24Saint]

The issue of season ticket holders hasn’t been addressed. The LOI won’t get away with giving two fingers like that GAA are looking set to do. It would represent a decent sum of cash for most clubs if they had to offer refunds or free season tickets for the following season if fans can return.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

https://www.stpatsfc.com/news.php?id=8693

This is great stuff by Pats

[John83]

To try force structure on a completely fluid situation is idiotic and a recipe for disaster.


I'll use this example to illustrate why
If the government came out and said right we want to do 10k tests a day admitting that it's optimistic but only managed to do 9k would you prefer that or they be "realistic" and say they want 4k but manage to do 5k but can't go any higher because they were realistic so didn't allow for capacity to facilitate the optimistic outcome.

I know which I'd prefer and it's the same principle here
If they said 10k and could only do 5k, I would think little of their planning and organisation skills. Realistic projections are not the same as pessimistic ones.

[D24Saint]

https://www.stpatsfc.com/news.php?id=8693

This is great stuff by Pats

Great initiative , the appointment of a community officer has been a game changer for us.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

If they said 10k and could only do 5k, I would think little of their planning and organisation skills. Realistic projections are not the same as pessimistic ones.

As anyone that has worked on a large scale project will tell you, results don't always reflect the planning in place or work put in, external factors have a huge impact.

Nobody on earth, actually not an exaggeration, knows what a realistic projection for any of this. Talk of cancelling the season is pessimistic at best.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Great initiative , the appointment of a community officer has been a game changer for us.

Position should be part of the licensing criteria, it's a really underrated position.

[Martinho II]

Great initiative , the appointment of a community officer has been a game changer for us.

See FAI Development Officers are helping out in the community delivering food etc. Great move very similar to what a few officers in the local GAA clubs are doing also.

[Nesta99]

New work roster landed in today, with it was a letter from HR saying that they are looking in to ways to cover childcare, among other things, for frontline workers for the rest of the year!!! I know it is at least in part contingency planning but if a public health service thinks it is necessary to plan for that far ahead well it puts the resumption of sport in a bit of context. Especially when part of the plan is to very regularly swab staff so it will leave little lab capacity for non essential activity. Unless of course the clubs/associations can source labs to take on the job, its possible if not probable that UEFA could centralise some system for this. If games go ahead they could all resemble the 2nd half of the Disgrace of Gijón (albeit I was too young to remember it first hand!).

[Seagull]

The issue of season ticket holders hasn’t been addressed. The LOI won’t get away with giving two fingers like that GAA are looking set to do. It would represent a decent sum of cash for most clubs if they had to offer refunds or free season tickets for the following season if fans can return.

Personally I wouldn't want my season ticket refunded, it was bought to support the club so even if the season was abandoned I wouldn't seek a refund. That's a personal thing though.

[D24Saint]

Personally I wouldn't want my season ticket refunded, it was bought to support the club so even if the season was abandoned I wouldn't seek a refund. That's a personal thing though.

Id be the same but it’s something that should be factored into financial projections. I don’t think every ST holder in the LOI would be willing to take the loss on the chin.

[Ezeikial]

Personally I wouldn't want my season ticket refunded, it was bought to support the club so even if the season was abandoned I wouldn't seek a refund. That's a personal thing though.

Even those who share your stance are likely to want to be offered a refund.

It's impossible to tell, but I suspect that it would be a very hard sell to convince more than 20% of ST holders to just swallow the cost. It's a huge financial implication for clubs

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

The issue of season ticket holders hasn’t been addressed. The LOI won’t get away with giving two fingers like that GAA are looking set to do. It would represent a decent sum of cash for most clubs if they had to offer refunds or free season tickets for the following season if fans can return.

GAA are offering discounts on next years season ticket now

[RathfarnhamHoop]

You've got to think most LOI season ticket holders would want to let the club keep the money but if you're a family of 4 you could be talking the guts of 500 quid which in this climate with what looks like an economic crisis coming could be needed in some homes

[joey B]

There's no right or wrong answer with season ticket's,of course clubs hope there's not a run on season ticket money but can't really refuse people if they need it........

[placid casual]

You've got to think most LOI season ticket holders would want to let the club keep the money but if you're a family of 4 you could be talking the guts of 500 quid which in this climate with what looks like an economic crisis coming could be needed in some homes

Sorry, but I dont understand this logic.
If you've paid for the season ticket( even if its 500 quid or more), then you've in effect budgeted for it already. it wont matter your future circumstances -it doesnt matter if you go to games or not, its money gone -why would you now look for the money back?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Sorry, but I dont understand this logic.
If you've paid for the season ticket( even if its 500 quid or more), then you've in effect budgeted for it already. it wont matter your future circumstances -it doesnt matter if you go to games or not, its money gone -why would you now look for the money back?

They've budgeted for it based on having x income, some people could be on reduced wages, or on the 350 quid or self employed or whatever. Same as clubs, budgets are all messed up at the moment and some people may not be in the position to essentially donate 500quid

[D24Saint]

Sorry, but I dont understand this logic.
If you've paid for the season ticket( even if its 500 quid or more), then you've in effect budgeted for it already. it wont matter your future circumstances -it doesnt matter if you go to games or not, its money gone -why would you now look for the money back?

That logic could be used for anything in this crisis. A person may have budgeted for a holiday and now it’s gone are they supposed to just let it go and let the travel company away scott free. A season ticket sold by clubs shouldn’t be seen by them as a charitable donation, a percentage of fans will let it go but those who don’t want to aren’t obliged to.

[Real ale Madrid]

Sorry, but I dont understand this logic.
If you've paid for the season ticket( even if its 500 quid or more), then you've in effect budgeted for it already. it wont matter your future circumstances -it doesnt matter if you go to games or not, its money gone -why would you now look for the money back?

Its money given out but in lieu of attending games - if you can't attend the games then you are entitled to a refund or at least a voucher towards next seasons ticket. If you have lost your job as a result of this you will need that money back. Your argument is like paying for a holiday but when the holiday is cancelled people shrugging their shoulders and saying - sure that flight money is gone.

[pineapple stu]

Bradford saying that the EFL are suggesting no fans at games for the rest of this calendar year (https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0501/1136082-fans-at-soccer-unlikely-until-2021-reveal-bradford/).


"City officials have recently been informed of the ever-growing possibility of supporters being unable to attend matches until 2021," a club statement read.

"And it is now highly likely that next season will commence behind closed doors."

[Nesta99]

I was alluding to that thought process growing through work briefings, though I didnt say it was with the NHS. UK figures are startling and will get a lot worse. There is a whole lot of manipulation on the stats which are slowly be adjusted somewhere toward a true reflection of things. It's no surprise that people are reading between the lines. The hope here is that we got ahead of things better and maybe see a sooner lifting of restrictions. Border and travel from and to the UK will be a problem and I think even in N.I. its being realised that an all-island strategy will be of greater benefit to them.

[The Lilywhites]

Even those who share your stance are likely to want to be offered a refund.

It's impossible to tell, but I suspect that it would be a very hard sell to convince more than 20% of ST holders to just swallow the cost. It's a huge financial implication for clubs

In our case I'd say it's a factor in the club pushing for behind closed doors. Not sure on ST numbers but sales could have been maybe between €150-200k which is spent by now on wages.

The club have tweeted about the possible cost of live streaming home games (€10 for a non ST holder) so I'd imagine they'd just offer that free to ST holders and cover it that way.

Away games €7 for ST holders, which suggests maybe an incentive for ST holders to view away games for €3 cheaper than non ST holders.

They'd also have to offer a partial cash refund if the supporter wanted it though (what if there's 2-3 STs in one house for example, or if people just didn't want the stream at that cost if it's Trackchamp quality).

If the season is cancelled then clubs presumably will offer a high discount on 2021 tickets (full price minus the cost of the 2 home games in our case played this season).

You can't just write off the money as a donation. People paid for a product. LOI clubs aren't a charity even if it seems like that a lot of the time!

[pineapple stu]

Bundesliga tentatively restarting behind closed doors on May 9th. Players back in training already.

But surely all it takes is one case of Covid-19 within 1 squad and the whole squad is quarantined for 2 weeks...along with maybe the squad of their opposition in the previous week or 2, messing up the already behind-schedule plans.
And that's exactly what's happened (https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0502/1136225-cologne-covid-19-cases-throw-doubt-on-bundesliga-return/).

[placid casual]

Its money given out but in lieu of attending games - if you can't attend the games then you are entitled to a refund or at least a voucher towards next seasons ticket. If you have lost your job as a result of this you will need that money back. Your argument is like paying for a holiday but when the holiday is cancelled people shrugging their shoulders and saying - sure that flight money is gone.
I guess some people treat their own club like another amenity, such as a holiday. Others are far more invested in the club the live
I was referencing keeping the club you love alive, by not seeking the money back. In effect, foregoing the fact that you won't see any more live football this year, but next year you'll have a club to come back to.

[D24Saint]

I guess some people treat their own club like another amenity, such as a holiday. Others are far more invested in the club the live
I was referencing keeping the club you love alive, by not seeking the money back. In effect, foregoing the fact that you won't see any more live football this year, but next year you'll have a club to come back to.

Of course some just use football clubs as just another night out. This is why crowds rise & fall with results , not everyone that goes to a game is a hardcore fan that will back a club no matter what. That’s just the way football and sports in general operates.

[pineapple stu]

The reality is clubs will surely have to at least offer a refund on season tickets. Those who want to waive the refund would be entitled to do so. But those who want the money back might otherwise lose enough goodwill that they wouldn't buy a season ticket next season. So there's definitely swings and roundabouts in it.

[D24Saint]

The reality is clubs will surely have to at least offer a refund on season tickets. Those who want to waive the refund would be entitled to do so. But those who want the money back might otherwise lose enough goodwill that they wouldn't buy a season ticket next season. So there's definitely swings and roundabouts in it.

The league will need the goodwill of ST holders aswell. There will be short and long term legacy issues from the current crisis in reference to crowded places.The majority of LOI grounds are tight & compact , it will be import to attract fans back any way we can. The clubs will need to allow for the issue financially, their will be a good percentage that will not look for anything back but I wouldn’t see that percentage as high as some on here.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I guess some people treat their own club like another amenity, such as a holiday. Others are far more invested in the club the live
I was referencing keeping the club you love alive, by not seeking the money back. In effect, foregoing the fact that you won't see any more live football this year, but next year you'll have a club to come back to.

I personally am willing to write it off but I know that not every LOI season ticket holder is in such a fortunate position and some just manage to get the money for a season ticket together each year to support the club normally and now with all that's going on might be in a financial crisis of their own

[sidewayspasser]

I personally also wouldn't look for a refund, but I can fully understand if fans who have taken a financial hit of their own during this crisis would at least like to have the option. If for example you've lost your job and are struggling to pay your bills as a result of that, you might not be inclined to let it go easily.