Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[redobit]

Dundalk chairman Bill Hulsizer:
“I’m not going to worry about the other teams in Ireland. “I definitely won’t do anything to hurt them but I’m not going to do things that I think would help everyone when nobody else cares about whether anyone else gets help, just about their own particular parish"

Maybe some of the real Dundalk fans and people should tell Bill how they had the buckets out in LOI grounds around the country in 2013, collecting money and showing off their big SOS banner. I would say 'short memory' but of course not much point.

[Eminence Grise]

Does anybody have a ballpark figure how much cash is needed to see out the league? What’s the clubs combined spend in a season? 25-30 million?

Minus cash already in -
income supports already paid to players and staff
season ticket sales
merchandise
sponsorship
fundraisers

Pared back to the bones, would 12 million see it through to the end? It’s a lot, granted, but it's also loose change in the grand scheme of things. (Put certain football administrators in the stocks and charge a tenner for a rotten tomato and you’d soon make a dent in it!)

[Bucket]

Is today the deadline for the clubs? I think Moldova is the other Summer league that hasn't decided yet to return or not. Is money the issue over there too or are the virus numbers a lot higher than other countries, does anyone know?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

You can break it down to that the vast majority of money being lost is ticket revenue.
The league average was 2,100 last year. Times that by the approx 16 home games missing is 33,600. Give an average ticket price of 11 euro is 369,600. Divide that by 2 to account for an estimate of half the crowd being season tickets (in reality it's probably more season tickets but to be safe we'll say half) that's 184,800. So thats the average shortfall clubs have from tickets. You could round that up to 200,000 to account for raffles, food, etc so Premier Division will need approx 2 million. First division you could do the same maths, adjusted for less home games and avg attendance of 582 to get 38412 rounded to 40000 so 360,000.

So overall a package of 2,360,000 would cover all shortfall more or less.

It's embarrassing that a national association in a country where football is as widely played as it is here can't come up with that. I don't blame Quinn and Co for that though

[Martinho II]

Seen in Irish Sun today that there are proposals to play first month of delayed restart BCD in August and then limit attendance from Sept onwards. Govt are talking about max crowds of 5k. Now that could work!

[WeAreRovers]

This is genuinely one of the most depressing episodes in my time following the league. Yes the FAI is a mess, but Seeing senior football teams not trying to play football just kills me.


What is the point of this? Do Sligo and Pats not have to honour their contracts? When the 350euro payment ends, what will their players do? If football is sanctioned to be played in August with fans, will we have to wait another month for teams to get their fitness back?

So many questions, but I feel like certain teams just want the league cancelled, and try to start up again next year.... baiscally dragging everyone down to their level, destroying any progress made in the last couple of years.

That's exactly what's happening but everyone's afraid to call those clubs out and it's beyond depressing.

[ConorRSOeuskadi]

Is today the deadline for the clubs? I think Moldova is the other Summer league that hasn't decided yet to return or not. Is money the issue over there too or are the virus numbers a lot higher than other countries, does anyone know?

From what I can gather using google translate, they are looking to going back to being Autumn/Spring but they haven't got a return date yet. They're waiting on the health authorities to give them a green light.

[redobit]

That's exactly what's happening but everyone's afraid to call those clubs out and it's beyond depressing.

Well actually its not. And all clubs bar a couple are of a similar mind when it comes to getting this up and running. Dont believe everything you read on forums and social media.

[Ezeikial]

Dundalk chairman Bill Hulsizer:
“I’m not going to worry about the other teams in Ireland. “I definitely won’t do anything to hurt them but I’m not going to do things that I think would help everyone when nobody else cares about whether anyone else gets help, just about their own particular parish"

Maybe some of the real Dundalk fans and people should tell Bill how they had the buckets out in LOI grounds around the country in 2013, collecting money and showing off their big SOS banner. I would say 'short memory' but of course not much point.

Wild Bill does not appear to be a man who sits on the fence on things.

The above quote really needs to be read in context of the whole interview where he is expressing a lot of exasperation about being asked for a 7 figure loan by the FAI which was then not followed up.

The article also seems to indicate that Peak6 were subsequently still willing to offer the FAI substantial funds


“We were asked for €1m and then €1.5million in April and we said ‘OK, let’s figure out the detail’.


Negative or problematic attitudes from some clubs to getting the league re-started may also have irked him into suggesting that he will now refocus


“Our mission when we came in was to improve the League of Ireland. I can’t see that happening now. I don’t think the League of Ireland is ready to be improved. It needs it but there’s not enough money.

“We’re going to focus on making Dundalk the best example of what football should be that we can.
“I’m not going to worry about the other teams in Ireland.


If after you read the full article you still genuinely believe that he should change his approach because of a cash crises in 2012 come back and tell me why and I will be happy to discuss it

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/5550084/dundalk-owners-loan-fai-april-seven-figures/

[Calcio Jack]

Wild Bill does not appear to be a man who sits on the fence on things.

The above quote really needs to be read in context of the whole interview where he is expressing a lot of exasperation about being asked for a 7 figure loan by the FAI which was then not followed up.

The article also seems to indicate that Peak6 were subsequently still willing to offer the FAI substantial funds



Negative or problematic attitudes from some clubs to getting the league re-started may also have irked him into suggesting that he will now refocus



If after you read the full article you still genuinely believe that he should change his approach because of a cash crises in 2012 come back and tell me why and I will be happy to discuss it

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/5550084/dundalk-owners-loan-fai-april-seven-figures/

In the article Bill ( please spare us the silly Wild moniker) Mentions SDCC putting a further €7.5m into Tallaght and he’ll be looking to see what Louth CC can provide to update Oriel.

You might advise Bill that (1) SDCC own Tallaght so they’re happy to invest upgrade their own stadium , so it’s stupid/disingenuous to call on LCC to put a cent into Oriel..., glad to see Bill says Peak will be finally investing in the stadium .... is that the truth or just a cheap sound bite ?

(2) Also comparing SDCC resources with LCC resources is the equivalent to comparing the city budget of New York with that of Turkey Scratch in Arkansas ( Bill should be clever enough to work that out)

[Ezeikial]

In the article Bill ( please spare us the silly Wild moniker) Mentions SDCC putting a further €7.5m into Tallaght and he’ll be looking to see what Louth CC can provide to update Oriel.

You might advise Bill that (1) SDCC own Tallaght so they’re happy to invest upgrade their own stadium , so it’s stupid/disingenuous to call on LCC to put a cent into Oriel..., glad to see Bill says Peak will be finally investing in the stadium .... is that the truth or just a cheap sound bite ?

(2) Also comparing SDCC resources with LCC resources is the equivalent to comparing the city budget of New York with that of Turkey Scratch in Arkansas ( Bill should be clever enough to work that out)

Silly, Stupid, Disingenuous....

Pass on by Calcio, maybe someone else will take your bait

[Calcio Jack]

Silly, Stupid, Disingenuous....

Pass on by Calcio, maybe someone else will take your bait

No them’s just the facts .... hope Bill likes his time in Turkey Scratch

[RathfarnhamHoop]

You know I agree with Bill. The hypocrits in the SDCC refuse to pay for my extension to my gaff while they're building a whole estates of full gaffs in other places, it's ridiculous carry on this and I'm delighted someones finally standing up to them

[D24Saint]

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/5554054/coronavirus-in-ireland-league-of-ireland-return-august-fai/

Talks progressing by the sound of things. The potential of fans by September will help matters aswell.

[Bunny Kelly]

If we start back when do clubs want the league to end?

Go longer to get more games in, or if players on 40 week contracts does it make it more of a headache

[D24Saint]

If we start back when do clubs want the league to end?

Go longer to get more games in, or if players on 40 week contracts does it make it more of a headache

A whole series would have to be dropped I’d say if we want to finish in October or November.

[pineapple stu]

The article says 18 game Premier - so two series dropped.

Lots of other little considerations too of course - like I've never seen anyone pay by card at the turnstiles, but that'll have to change. Or programme sellers - how do you buy a programme and keep social distance? What about the club shop - how do you stop people from, say, touching a scarf just to get the feel of it, or rooting through jerseys to find their size?

Going to be a very different experience I think.

[Ezeikial]

The article says 18 game Premier - so two series dropped.



That remains an open question

Based on a tweet from Gary Rogers, PFAI Chair, this afternoon it was far from resolved, as is the question of promotion & relegation. Inevitably both issues are interlinked


gary rogers
@1garyrogers
(https://twitter.com/1garyrogers)
Interesting last meeting as @PFAIOfficial (https://twitter.com/PFAIOfficial)
chairman this afternoon. Matters discussed included player contracts and the restart and the length of the season. Players want promotion and relegation to ensure sporting integrity of the league.



https://twitter.com/1garyrogers/status/1273625377257271296

[placid casual]

So 13 more games to win the league. Cool. Let's go.

Hopefully any money that the clubs get will be given to the players who were laid off quick smart as soon as someone sneezed in March, and not just back into the owners pockets. sligo, pats & waterford players, keep your eyes open!

[Yossarian]

Seeks to me now that the clubs who only want to come back for a two series league are the same ones who now want relegation scrapped.
I personally think the league should come back for a 27 game season, it gives plenty of time for teams to avoid relegation/make Europe etc on the pitch. The season could be stretched out until early December.

[nigel-harps1954]

It's ridiculous to restart for only 13 games. Could hardly call it a season..

[The Lilywhites]

It's ridiculous to restart for only 13 games. Could hardly call it a season..

Would be even more ridiculous to have 13 more games with no relegation but have promotion, as is being mentioned in the media.

So back to 12 teams next year? Would that mean 3 straight down next year and 1 promoted to bring it back to 10?!

[Kiki Balboa]

Why are some clubs against relegation ?

[Yossarian]

Why are some clubs against relegation ?

Well it’s fairly obvious really, if you look at Sligo for example, they have no points so it would be hard for them to avoid relegation if they only had 13/14 games left. It seems clear to me from listening to their treasurer that they are pushing for the short season to reduce costs and I would imagine they are pushing for no relegation aswell. If that’s what is decided then what incentive to they have to pay players in full and actually field a competitive team.

[D24Saint]

Well it’s fairly obvious really, if you look at Sligo for example, they have no points so it would be hard for them to avoid relegation if they only had 13/14 games left. It seems clear to me from listening to their treasurer that they are pushing for the short season to reduce costs and I would imagine they are pushing for no relegation aswell. If that’s what is decided then what incentive to they have to pay players in full and actually field a competitive team.

None it would be a shambles that would leave some clubs with no incentive to be competitive.

[Kiki Balboa]

I was thinking there might be a football/sporting reason, but there isnt....

Its baiscally a way for some clubs to try and cull their wages which they already agreed to, to the detriment of the league

[placid casual]

Dunno if anyone has the answer to this question, but what happens if 9 teams agree and 1 disagrees? Does the league say" tough €hit paddy, we're going ahead without you," to the one disenter or do we remain in limbo at the mercy of this one club?

[placid casual]

Sorry meant to add,
What if it's 2 clubs, or 3. Where does this end I guess?

[pineapple stu]

I was thinking there might be a football/sporting reason, but there isnt....

Its baiscally a way for some clubs to try and cull their wages which they already agreed to, to the detriment of the league
It's also a way of not spending a season in the First Division. Not unique to Ireland either - Hearts and Partick are already suing the Scottish League over their relegations after the Scottish leagues were abandoned with around 6-8 matches to go, while last week, the French courts blocked relegation from Ligue 1 while letting the two promoted sides come up, so there'll be 22 teams and four relegation spots next year.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

One of the many issues all this is really highlighting is the problems the difference in contract lengths causes as the season cant be extended because some clubs can't afford to extend contracts.

The FAI should step in and stop that in future. I know people say players want to go on the dole and stuff but when you're trying to promote a league it's really hard to convince people you're serious while also saying that.
There's nothing to stop players getting other work between seasons they just couldn't go on the dole is all.

Talk of the FAI Cup being scrapped should be shelved too. We need that euro spot. Play it after the seasons conclusion, simple. If clubs don't want to renew contracts then they can play the kids in it

[ToberonaTornado]

Dunno if anyone has the answer to this question, but what happens if 9 teams agree and 1 disagrees? Does the league say" tough €hit paddy, we're going ahead without you," to the one disenter or do we remain in limbo at the mercy of this one club?
plough on.
We're a disgrace atm that we haven't got the league up and running.believe we're the only league in Europe not doing so.
So much for this new loi we got promised by fai. the NEW fai

[pineapple stu]

In fairness, it's hard to blame this on the current FAI.

It's an exceptional and unique circumstance to hit what is an organisation badly hamstrung by the chief ****wit JD himself.

What can the FAI realistically do? They're broke, so can't really just finance all LoI clubs' costs for the season. But they have to comply with national health and safety requirements during a pandemic.

(OK, JD didn't make the current organisation as Dundalk for a loan if that story's true, but other than that, this isn't the current FAI's doing)

[El-Pietro]

plough on.
We're a disgrace atm that we haven't got the league up and running.believe we're the only league in Europe not doing so.
So much for this new loi we got promised by fai. the NEW fai
This is factually incorrect and is very easy to disprove.

Ligue Un, Jupiler League, Erdeivisie, SPL, Leagues One and Two in England. All cancelled outright. So was the Womens Premier League in England.

NIFL hasn't returned yet, neither has the LOI. I'm sure there are plenty of other leagues still trying to find solutions, but I don't have time to google all 50+ leagues.. There are still trying to agree a deals to bring MLB back in the US, and while the NBA has a deal there has been rumours suggesting a significant population of players don't want to return.

We need to realise that restrictions around travel and crowds are going to be different in each country. Ireland has been pretty badly hit by Covid-19 in relation to other countries. if you sort by death per population and take out countries under 1 million then Ireland has the 9th worst death rate in the world, 12th if you count Andorra, St. Maarten and San Marino. Next you have to look at the financial realities.

The Premier League was always going to return, there was too much television money at stake for it not to, and they were close to finishing it anyway. Its probably more of a surprise that leagues in France, Belgium and Netherlands didn't return for similar reasons but the TV money there isn't as massive as in England.

There was a tweet a few months back decrying the lack of TV money in Ireland. I think we were the only league in all of UEFA with zero television money, or one of only a few and the leagues near the bottom were tiny leagues that we should not be in the same category as. No league in all of Europe relies on crowds to a greater extent that the League of Ireland. It makes up the bulk of all of our clubs income. If you bring back the LOI without crowds we will lose clubs. That is reality. I completely understand why those clubs near the top of the table are eager to return, winning trophies is fun and there is European prize money to compete for. I would love for the LOI to be back, but until there are financial guarantees then it is irresponsible to bring it back. Is it be worth playing a truncated season in 2020 if we lose 2 or 3 clubs in the process? Or should we wait until we can find a way to get fans back in our stadiums, even at reduced capacities and allow clubs to budget for that so that they can survive this new reality.

Then you have relegation. I will admit that I will have a biased position on this but I'm going to lay my thoughts out and anyone can feel free to counter them, as long as you realise your position may also be biased based on the situation your club is in. I'm not suggesting that we have no relegation. I would be very relieved if that did turn out to be the case as my club is in danger of relegation.

When we started the season we all understood what was required for relegation, and to win the title etc. Play 36 games in the Premier, each team home and away twice, over the course of that season you can have no real complaints about your final position. If you cut those games in half you will get more weirdness. Each lucky or unlucky result has much more of an impact, an injury or suspension is twice as important. Loan signings who were brought in under the assumption they would be available for the majority of games before the end of June are now gone. There may also be players who are at increased risk, or who have family members who have increased risk who choose not to play for the remainder of the season. No matter what happens, if we go ahead then this is going to be a very strange season

You can't exactly impose a shortened season on clubs in the middle, teams made preparations for a 36 game season, so you need to get consensus on what a new season eventually looks like. There will be teams who are more or less happy with the eventual agreement but you need some sort of agreement.

[redobit]

It's ridiculous to restart for only 13 games. Could hardly call it a season..

Agree and disagree there Nigel. I think the league needs to happen, even at only 13 games it would bring some closure and keep sponsors, season tickets holders, players happy to some degree.

13 games is way to short and Id agree hardly a season in anybody's eyes. I think all teams are looking for is fairness and decent crack at a season.

Id agree with El-P on the relegation. It would be wierd without it. Personally I think a way out would be start again, I said it at the start and was shot down for it, but halving a season after it has barely starts when teams have made preparations for 36 games, then restarting it 6 months later just isint a fair playing field imo. 9 games home, 9 games away brings everbody back to level playing field. There can be no argument about relegation. promotion, euro spots as everybody goes into this the same. Not to mention the chance of court proceedings that Scottish teams are talking about.

Maybe Im biased and maybe a restart is unlikely. I suppose all I want, and most clubs Im sure, is to feel that they were allowed have a go and not feel hard done by at when its all over.

[redobit]

I was thinking there might be a football/sporting reason, but there isnt....

Its baiscally a way for some clubs to try and cull their wages which they already agreed to, to the detriment of the league

There is another reason I could think of, that's survival. Is the financial package good enough to survive without debt. Football clubs are no different than any other company in all this. Some companies have to take drastic decisions in all this or they might not be back in business. Im not saying this is the case far from it, just a potential reason.

[Bucket]

Leo has announced crowds of 500 allowed from 29th June

[D24Saint]

Leo has announced crowds of 500 allowed from 29th June

I thought he said 200 then 500 from 20th July ? either number is a help to getting the league back on.

[ger121]

€70 million for Sports of which €40 million between FAI, GAA and IRFU and crowds of 500 possible from 31st July could be enough now to get a deal over the line and recommence the season.

[placid casual]

€30M to gah, €8M to rugger and €2M to FAI( of which the white slave owners of the schoolboy section will expect €1M)

[osarusan]

Personally I think a way out would be start again, I said it at the start and was shot down for it, but halving a season after it has barely starts when teams have made preparations for 36 games, then restarting it 6 months later just isint a fair playing field imo. 9 games home, 9 games away brings everbody back to level playing field. There can be no argument about relegation. promotion, euro spots as everybody goes into this the same.
How is it not a level playing field to continue from where the season left off until each team has played each other home and away, for a total of 18 games?

[ToberonaTornado]

This is factually incorrect and is very easy to disprove.

Ligue Un, Jupiler League, Erdeivisie, SPL, Leagues One and Two in England. All cancelled outright. So was the Womens Premier League in England.

NIFL hasn't returned yet, neither has the LOI. I'm sure there are plenty of other leagues still trying to find solutions, but I don't have time to google all 50+ leagues.. There are still trying to agree a deals to bring MLB back in the US, and while the NBA has a deal there has been rumours suggesting a significant population of players don't want to return.

We need to realise that restrictions around travel and crowds are going to be different in each country. Ireland has been pretty badly hit by Covid-19 in relation to other countries. if you sort by death per population and take out countries under 1 million then Ireland has the 9th worst death rate in the world, 12th if you count Andorra, St. Maarten and San Marino. Next you have to look at the financial realities.

The Premier League was always going to return, there was too much television money at stake for it not to, and they were close to finishing it anyway. Its probably more of a surprise that leagues in France, Belgium and Netherlands didn't return for similar reasons but the TV money there isn't as massive as in England.

There was a tweet a few months back decrying the lack of TV money in Ireland. I think we were the only league in all of UEFA with zero television money, or one of only a few and the leagues near the bottom were tiny leagues that we should not be in the same category as. No league in all of Europe relies on crowds to a greater extent that the League of Ireland. It makes up the bulk of all of our clubs income. If you bring back the LOI without crowds we will lose clubs. That is reality. I completely understand why those clubs near the top of the table are eager to return, winning trophies is fun and there is European prize money to compete for. I would love for the LOI to be back, but until there are financial guarantees then it is irresponsible to bring it back. Is it be worth playing a truncated season in 2020 if we lose 2 or 3 clubs in the process? Or should we wait until we can find a way to get fans back in our stadiums, even at reduced capacities and allow clubs to budget for that so that they can survive this new reality.

Then you have relegation. I will admit that I will have a biased position on this but I'm going to lay my thoughts out and anyone can feel free to counter them, as long as you realise your position may also be biased based on the situation your club is in. I'm not suggesting that we have no relegation. I would be very relieved if that did turn out to be the case as my club is in danger of relegation.

When we started the season we all understood what was required for relegation, and to win the title etc. Play 36 games in the Premier, each team home and away twice, over the course of that season you can have no real complaints about your final position. If you cut those games in half you will get more weirdness. Each lucky or unlucky result has much more of an impact, an injury or suspension is twice as important. Loan signings who were brought in under the assumption they would be available for the majority of games before the end of June are now gone. There may also be players who are at increased risk, or who have family members who have increased risk who choose not to play for the remainder of the season. No matter what happens, if we go ahead then this is going to be a very strange season

You can't exactly impose a shortened season on clubs in the middle, teams made preparations for a 36 game season, so you need to get consensus on what a new season eventually looks like. There will be teams who are more or less happy with the eventual agreement but you need some sort of agreement.

I'm glad i helped you get that off your shoulders el p.
We're still shockingly bad and way too cautious in this country in relation to covid 19 imo.Some relief though offered by the govt tonight.
Hopefully we'll see a pathway now for getting football here back again and a full season with relegation and promotion and a full FAI cup programme to come.

[pineapple stu]

We're still shockingly bad and way too cautious in this country in relation to covid 19 imo.Some relief though offered by the govt tonight.
Are we? That's a fairly big claim. The reduction in numbers entirely justifies it as far as I can see.

And things aren't going to magically go back to normal even at the end of next month when crowds of 500 are allowed. Social distancing is still going to be a thing. There's lots of ways that's going to impact LoI clubs - reduced gates, increased costs, reduced ancillary income (I mentioned programme sales as a possible hit earlier on). Without some sort of agreement on how clubs are going to pay wages while effectively most of their customers are banned, the league can't resume. And the disgrace isn't that the league isn't back yet (far from the only one in Europe, as El Pietro pointed out), but that the league has been so criminally underdeveloped during Delaney's tenure.

That's not the current FAI's fault, who are dealing with two unique situations on top of each other (insolvency being the other).

[Bucket]

I don't think anyone is saying that we're the only European league that's not back playing, we're the only European summer-season league with no return date. Plus Moldova maybe?
IMO the measures taken by government so far have been necessary. They are making a balls of the hospitality guidelines though.
In most grounds, it would be easy to seat 500 spectators at a social distance even if the subs will probably be sitting in the stand instead of the dug-outs too. The problem will be at the turnstiles and toilets.
I really wouldn't like to be the person with the final decision on all this. Another wave of infections and you'd be public enemy number one.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

How is it not a level playing field to continue from where the season left off until each team has played each other home and away, for a total of 18 games?

Yeah that doesn’t make sense. I don’t mind if there’s relegation and a 18 game season and we get relegated once coming back for these 13 games doesn’t leave us in financial ruin. Getting through this year to be in the somewhat stable position we were at the start of this year going into next year is the most important thing going. If we’re in Division 1 so be it. We’ve been there before plenty of times.

[sbgawa]

With the extra money coming into Fai and crowds allowed in from 1st August 500 and of August 5000 probably (subject to social distancing files at that time.....probably minimal) it's looking more sustainable.

[Martinho II]

No mention of whats happening up in NIFL at all now. Wonder will it go the way of Scotland and call it quits?

[D24Saint]

I'm glad i helped you get that off your shoulders el p.
We're still shockingly bad and way too cautious in this country in relation to covid 19 imo.Some relief though offered by the govt tonight.
Hopefully we'll see a pathway now for getting football here back again and a full season with relegation and promotion and a full FAI cup programme to come.

Red tape and bureaucracy in this country is hurting all aspects of life im not a bid surprised at how we have handled the crisis. The initial response was good but a dogs dinner had been made of the reopening.

[WeAreRovers]

No mention of whats happening up in NIFL at all now. Wonder will it go the way of Scotland and call it quits?

https://twitter.com/stevenbeacom5/status/1273722427592376320?s=21

[D24Saint]

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/5565101/dundalk-2020-league-of-ireland-season/

Perth wants the results so far made null and void.

[Ezeikial]

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/5565101/dundalk-2020-league-of-ireland-season/

Perth wants the results so far made null and void.

....if relegation is scrapped.

If the league accept the contention that playing out 13 or 14 games is an unfair way to resolve relegation, then his argument is logical about the top end of the league