Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[pineapple stu]

Level 5 now confirmed as in place until after Easter, which is 4th April this year, so that overlaps with the start of the new season.

I don't really see how you can treat the LoI and the GAA differently to be honest. Is the fact that LoI players get paid (but far from all are full-time of course) really enough to differentiate it?

[sbgawa]

Level 5 now confirmed as in place until after Easter, which is 4th April this year, so that overlaps with the start of the new season.

I don't really see how you can treat the LoI and the GAA differently to be honest. Is the fact that LoI players get paid (but far from all are full-time of course) really enough to differentiate it?


The level of risk with the GAA is far higher.
Far more teams double up for hurling and football, far bigger panals , far bigger number of support staff + the /GAA showed they were not taking it seriously the last time around.

LOI is part of an international professional structure that is playing in other countries.
I'm frankly amazed we have been given priority in this GAA dominated country, it might be thanks to our egg chasing friends and how they couldnt shut down one group of pros and not both

[jbyrne]

Even Claire Byrne was grilling the minister this morning on whether the LOI was really professional.

to be fair her point was more that they are not in a professional type bubble that full time professionals such as the rugby teams would be in.
her point was that they are often part timers and as a result would be more likely also be out mingling with the general public

[passinginterest]

I think there's big enough differences to justify the distinction. The GAA is amateur for a start, ok league of Ireland is mainly semi-pro and there's a few amateur teams in the first division but even they're likely paying expenses at least. Pre season inter county training panels will be bringing around 40 players in to train, a LOI squad is probably around 25 so a lot more manageable. We've already seen two inter county teams caught training on the sly and that was a really bad look for the GAA, on top of the club final celebrations that went on last year.

Football is an international sport and the national league feeds into Europe etc. the knock on effects of a delay are much more significant with European money and contracted professionals involved. I'm glad the FAI has been successful in convincing the Government that this is elite professional sport and should continue. If there's any major outbreaks it'll be shut down quickly, but the clubs showed a good ability to keep things under control last season and hopefully that continues. The celebrations in Dundalk after the FAI cup final is the only real Covid breach that I can think of in association with LOI and that didn't seem to get a lot of media coverage.

The GAA don't seem to be putting up too much of a fight either. If they start to make a fuss it might put pressure on the FAI, but for now it looks unlikely. There's plenty of other elite level training still continuing with our Olympic athletes, inter provincial and international rugby teams etc.

[pineapple stu]

The level of risk with the GAA is far higher.
Far more teams double up for hurling and football, far bigger panals , far bigger number of support staff + the /GAA showed they were not taking it seriously the last time around.
I think given how quickly this thing spreads, a panel of 30 players is no real difference to a panel of 22 players to be honest. I don't think the "international professional structure played in other countries" line is of any relevance either. Elite sport brings people in close proximity to each other, be it rugby, football or GAA. I can understand the argument for distinguishing between elite level, underage level, and casual/recreation level, but I don't think you can reasonably treat the sports differently within the same level.

(I also don't see any relevance in passinginterest's comments about the GAA being amateur and the LoI being semi-pro/pro)

[Yossarian]

I think the fact the LoI is professional/semi professional is a major reason it is seen as elite and the minister of sport said as much this morning. If they class professional football in this country as non elite then realistically they’d have to class all professional sport here as non elite. As an amateur sport the GAA can’t really influence what their members do outside of the sport whereas a LoI team who is paying someone’s wages can.
Whether there should be any sport at all going on at the moment is another question altogether.

[Nesta99]

Level 5 now confirmed as in place until after Easter, which is 4th April this year, so that overlaps with the start of the new season.

I don't really see how you can treat the LoI and the GAA differently to be honest. Is the fact that LoI players get paid (but far from all are full-time of course) really enough to differentiate it?

High profile breaches of regulations have cost the GAA dearly, im not making an assumption here either. Having to publically ban 2 intercountry managers, the highest level in the game, for holding group training sessions, another 4 suspected breaches and probably more that havent been flagged, having unregulated, illegal training, that lacked testing and with untraceabllity of groups that are considered highly integrated in to the general community, in the event of a cluster was a serious cluster f*ck up. It is a known ethic that GAA club and country squads train outside their own calander that is set to enhance player welfare issues in the main. The Cork hurling team where supporters gathered post county final was flagged in comparison to SRFCs superb conduct after long wait for a title. All mitigation factored in though there is no shortage of spin to justify the decision and distinctions being made. That GAA is so highly embedded in every community, if there is a tendency to bend the rules, it is just to big a risk at the moment. I know my local GAA club has met up and had off the grid training in an electoral area were virus cases were in the top 5 nationally....

What I am finding interesting about this spat is the GAA v LoI angle. Apart from LoI being a smaller 'risk' to viral spread, and being a smaller organisation in general, direct comparison trying to be made and among GAA circles that LoI is public enemy No 1 for them - a real back handed compliment when the sport that has surged in popularity and participation for over a decade is Rugby. Outside of the provincial set-up its almost entirely amateur, quite similar to the GAA yet not a peep!?

It's no secret that I hold a certain contempt of the GAA especially Louth GAA, the issues are with the administrators of the game more than the sports themselves or even the supporters. Not particularly different from my thinking on the FAI!! But I do enjoy when pompous arrogance ends up stunned and confused when treated by the same rules as everyone else and efforts to take down others in the fall dont work. Listening to members of AGS whinging about the loss of overtime and stipends for Croke Park duty cheered me up one day, petty?? Only when you know that the payments vary for certain individuals!

[Dalymountrower]

I think the fact the LoI is professional/semi professional is a major reason it is seen as elite and the minister of sport said as much this morning. If they class professional football in this country as non elite then realistically they’d have to class all professional sport here as non elite. As an amateur sport the GAA can’t really influence what their members do outside of the sport whereas a LoI team who is paying someone’s wages can.
Whether there should be any sport at all going on at the moment is another question altogether.

Can the FAI please copy and paste the above as their press release. Absolutely on the button.

[EalingGreen]

Dunno if it's relevant, but the IL Premier Division has been allowed to continue in NI (though not the Championship), also the Womens' Football Premiership, those two being classified as "Elite Sport", along with Ulster Rugby.

While GAA in NI is suspended too, in line with ROI.
https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/northern-ireland-coronavirus-restrictions-extended-19675426

[pineapple stu]

High profile breaches of regulations have cost the GAA dearly, im not making an assumption here either.
That's a fair point, but is retrospective action really the best course of action for a pandemic situation? If we're trying to reduce contacts, then even elite sport seems unnecessary. I know there's jobs and even businesses at stake of course, but you can say that for lots of other areas that are shut.

[Martinho II]

Isnt there a very bad relationship between the GAA in Tallaght and Shamrock Rovers can anyone confirm pls?

[Nesta99]

That's a fair point, but is retrospective action really the best course of action for a pandemic situation? If we're trying to reduce contacts, then even elite sport seems unnecessary. I know there's jobs and even businesses at stake of course, but you can say that for lots of other areas that are shut.

Its not retrospective though, there are ongoing examples of flouting current restrictions, across society for sure but there is a duty of care for formal organisations to behave and are held to a higher level conduct than joe soap. The way that GAA is embedded in every community has become a weak link, their strength their weakness so to speak. The issue has most to do with being able to trace things in the event of a cluster. If elite sporting activity is (potentially) driving incidence of infection in the community, the minimum obligation is to be able to track that outbreak, know the why, how, and where it is going. Being up front about it is essential regardless of consequences within the rules and efforts of a particular sporting body and there are ongoing issues on this. Its a rare occurrence but I feel a bit sorry for the central administrators of GAA as they have been let down but then little happens in GAA that Croke Park hasnt some sniff off! Again by nature of how things are structured Elite GAA players are also non elite players when reverting to their clubs. LoI by nature has a smaller footprint but regardless a player at a club is only a player at that club unless called up to international squads - very tracible if any outbreaks occur. To use the rugby example again, players can be elite provincial players but also revert to AIL club level though uncommon especially with the central contract model but there isnt even a whisper of AIL sides trying to gain advantage by training while others have suspended club activity. The same cannot be said elsewhere. I'm going for the easy point scoring on this but a sport that officially claims that no one is paid to play or coach within the sport when everyone knows that that is not the case! added to good auld general fudging of its own restrictions has come home to roost. Public health vulnerabilities are taking precedence over the influence that any organisation has on how we are administrated as a country - the stakes are too high for insular micro politics.

EG's example is very much about recognising that there is a balance, elite sport may involve contacts but if covid is flagged up, protocols mitigates against spread. If protocols are not followed or there is a reasonable risk of not being followed then its not the conduct of 'elite' sport. Id think the IL Championship is not happening that its is is to to with resources.

[Nesta99]

Isnt there a very bad relationship between the GAA in Tallaght and Shamrock Rovers can anyone confirm pls?

Historically Thomas Davis GAA opposed Tallaght Stadium being 'soccer' led, with its anchor tenant being SRFC. Did the legal stuff, judicial appeals on the plans(?), pitch dimensions to allow GAA were thrown in but would have been awful for football games. It is a multi-use municipal facility as TD wanted but for mens and ladies footy and underage games, some American Football I think and underage GAA too where there is no need for the large playing area. Cynical throwing a spanner in the works by a bunch of petty GAA individuals where Thomas Davis became their common rallying point of opposition to the development. The committee of Thomas Davis must have shrunk 10 fold when SDCC and SRFC got the go ahead to finish the ground!!

Dunno how well they get on now but probably talk through gritted teeth.

[El-Pietro]

Speaking of retrospective bans, I think we should cancel the 2020 season. Its too dangerous.

[Nesta99]

Speaking of retrospective bans, I think we should cancel the 2020 League season. Its too dangerous.

One additional word and a Dundalk and Cork fan are totally in agreement!;)

[vinnie]

Historically Thomas Davis GAA opposed Tallaght Stadium being 'soccer' led, with its anchor tenant being SRFC. Did the legal stuff, judicial appeals on the plans(?), pitch dimensions to allow GAA were thrown in but would have been awful for football games. It is a multi-use municipal facility as TD wanted but for mens and ladies footy and underage games, some American Football I think and underage GAA too where there is no need for the large playing area. Cynical throwing a spanner in the works by a bunch of petty GAA individuals where Thomas Davis became their common rallying point of opposition to the development. The committee of Thomas Davis must have shrunk 10 fold when SDCC and SRFC got the go ahead to finish the ground!!

Dunno how well they get on now but probably talk through gritted teeth.

We don't, the opinion in Tallafornia is last man standing is the winner, and in the case of Thomas Davis, it almost bankrupt them, but they pursued it even when GAA central said give it up, they lost their Bollíx keeping up the case and not a soul in football in Tallaght has any sympathy for them

[Nesta99]

We don't, the opinion in Tallafornia is last man standing is the winner, and in the case of Thomas Davis, it almost bankrupt them, but they pursued it even when GAA central said give it up, they lost their Bollíx keeping up the case and not a soul in football in Tallaght has any sympathy for them

And rightly so!! Was there an issue with flags or bunting a couple of years ago? Either TD objecting to SRFC colours going up in the locality or TD putting flags up around Tallaght Stadium. I could have some stories mixed up - maybe it had to do with Dublin flags? Occasionally the LoI football gods and step up and putting Thoms Davis in their place was on of those times!

[sbgawa]

Great story on one of the Tales from the East stand podcasts about an SRFC supporting kid winning player of the year award in his age group Thomas Davis a few years ago and when it was announced whipping off his jumper and going up to pick up the award in his Rovers jersey....

GAA centrally bailed them out for a chunk of their legal fees or they would have been in trouble.
Classic case of long standing committee members running away with themselves when the majority of members didnt care that much at all.

[placid casual]

If Ireland could have been transposed onto Lemmy's face, the gah and all its associates would be one of his warts.

[ger121]

I found it hilarious if I’m being honest. Not saying it is right or wrong to treat the LOI and GAA differently but it is funny to see the reactions from within that Organisation to less than equal treatment for a change. Welcome to our world lads!

[Martinho II]

No offence to the GAAHH but I hate it for its backwards stance towards other clubs from other sports in the locality ie TD and Shamrock Rovers. Think that battle was from day one when there was planning permission granted and TS lay idle for wat a decade and a bit!

[Nesta99]

Great story on one of the Tales from the East stand podcasts about an SRFC supporting kid winning player of the year award in his age group Thomas Davis a few years ago and when it was announced whipping off his jumper and going up to pick up the award in his Rovers jersey....

GAA centrally bailed them out for a chunk of their legal fees or they would have been in trouble.
Classic case of long standing committee members running away with themselves when the majority of members didnt care that much at all.

Not as funny but prior to 2008 AGM at a local GAA club there were 2 factions standing, one for reelection and to keep the club for the locals, traditional names in the parish, and one group who wanted to open the club to all the new residents (known as runners) that moved in to the area (15,000 since mid 2000s and counting). The latter group were elected, the former stormed off and drowned their sorrows in a local pub. The following committee meeting a vote of no confidence in the chair and secretary was submitted for causing the lads that lost being charged with drink driving on the night of the AGM....the penny dropped for me that night on why Louth GAA was rotten. The sinister side to this was that a blind eye had been turned in the past to people drinking and driving until they were no longer in control of the local club and by extension local politics and policing it seems too. Nothing to do with covid then but imagine many like minded people running clubs all over the country today in this manner, especially in rural Ireland and Im sure we all have such examples. It may take an age but abuse positions of authority there will eventually be a backlash!

[Charlie Darwin]

Historically Thomas Davis GAA opposed Tallaght Stadium being 'soccer' led, with its anchor tenant being SRFC. Did the legal stuff, judicial appeals on the plans(?), pitch dimensions to allow GAA were thrown in but would have been awful for football games. It is a multi-use municipal facility as TD wanted but for mens and ladies footy and underage games, some American Football I think and underage GAA too where there is no need for the large playing area. Cynical throwing a spanner in the works by a bunch of petty GAA individuals where Thomas Davis became their common rallying point of opposition to the development. The committee of Thomas Davis must have shrunk 10 fold when SDCC and SRFC got the go ahead to finish the ground!!

Dunno how well they get on now but probably talk through gritted teeth.
TD ran out on their legal bill with the council too. Owed something in the region of half a mill iirc and I assume the GAA settled it.

[sbgawa]

I see UEFA are talking about pulling out of Dublin for the euros unless there are 10000 people minimum at the matches according to RTE.
Might force the Government into doing something along the lines of allowing people who have been vaccinated attend or something like that.
Might help the LOI in terms of starting the conversation.

[Yossarian]

I see UEFA are talking about pulling out of Dublin for the euros unless there are 10000 people minimum at the matches according to RTE.
Might force the Government into doing something along the lines of allowing people who have been vaccinated attend or something like that.
Might help the LOI in terms of starting the conversation.

It would be great if it leads to supporters getting back to LoI games in some form, but the health advice shouldn’t be determined based on getting some Euros games in Dublin. I can’t see it happening anyway as the guarantees UEFA are looking for probably can’t be given. Personally I don’t care if there are Euros matches here. I just want things to get to a point that we can get back to our games here.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I think UEFA needs a knock on the head. What they are looking for isn't reasonable.

[ltfc_2004]

I think the Government would be more than happy for the event and associated risks not taking place in Ireland. If UEFA pull the plug does the FAI get compensated for the losses ?

[sbgawa]

I wasn't suggesting we open up just for that but i think it might make the Govt engage with the problem a bit more in terms of finding a safe solution.
They dont care about the LOI so starting the conversation about football is key

[John83]

I wasn't suggesting we open up just for that but i think it might make the Govt engage with the problem a bit more in terms of finding a safe solution.
They dont care about the LOI so starting the conversation about football is key
Even if they don't, the rugby and GAA pressure will keep 'elite sport' on the agenda.

[sbgawa]

Even if they don't, the rugby and GAA pressure will keep 'elite sport' on the agenda.


Never underestimate our politicians excitement at the prospect of mixing at these big events.
Witness the BS over the feasibility study for a world cup in 9 years time.
Chance to see and be seen

[Nesta99]

I see UEFA are talking about pulling out of Dublin for the euros unless there are 10000 people minimum at the matches according to RTE.
Might force the Government into doing something along the lines of allowing people who have been vaccinated attend or something like that.
Might help the LOI in terms of starting the conversation.

Tbh the relevant authorities are quietly quite ok if UEFA were pushing things now so a quick an easy decision could be made while the whole lockdown thing is still in full swing. The prospect of a whole load of non Irish fans travelling in for games has people breaking out in a cold sweat. But of course there will be a backlash if a decision is left to the April deadline, the situation has improved, restrictions being lifted and then the decision is still Non - especially if the hospitality sector is open in any way. It's far to complex and expensive to implement a vax cert for attendees of these games from outside of Ireland unless there is an integrated EU system in general and not just for sports (or any other large gatherings). If anyone happens to have tickets for these games Id be looking to get a refund now!!

[D24Saint]

Leinster Rugby submit plans to assess use of rapid antigen testing for safe return of fans to the RDS (the42.ie) (https://www.the42.ie/leinster-submit-plans-to-assess-the-use-of-rapid-antigen-testing-for-the-safe-return-of-spectators-to-the-rds-5407303-Apr2021/)

[pineapple stu]

You wonder if that'll hold up to the vaccine issues starting to develop now - AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson both on hold.

I don't think we'll see more than a token amount of fans at games this season, and I can't see how Euro 2020 is going to go ahead here at all.

Hope I'm wrong of course, but that's how it's looking anyway.

[John83]

I think the AZ and J&J vaccine issues will amount to little more than bureaucratic hold-up. There'll be guidelines released to prefer other vaccines for certain cohorts - all six of the cases behind the J&J review in the US are women under 50, for example, and the AZ guidelines here seem to be to restrict it to people over 60 - but ultimately the serious side effects seem to be in the "struck by lightning" class of probability and the substantial good they'll do outweighs the rare harm. That is likely to delay rollout a bit, but not that much as pent up supplies can be used up quickly enough when they're released.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I hope so - but then if we're going to stop the vaccine roll-out every time someone gets struck by lightning, this whole process could be delayed quite a while.

[sbgawa]

The Brits put s venture capitalist in charge of their roll out , we put a retired academic in charge of ours....QED

[Nesta99]

I think the AZ and J&J vaccine issues will amount to little more than bureaucratic hold-up. There'll be guidelines released to prefer other vaccines for certain cohorts - all six of the cases behind the J&J review in the US are women under 50, for example, and the AZ guidelines here seem to be to restrict it to people over 60 - but ultimately the serious side effects seem to be in the "struck by lightning" class of probability and the substantial good they'll do outweighs the rare harm. That is likely to delay rollout a bit, but not that much as pent up supplies can be used up quickly enough when they're released.

You are right on that but its a lot easier to 'sell' pausing certain vaccinations and disruption to roll-out due to potential health concerns, than biopharma companies not being able to meet production commitments. It takes the heat out of 'vaccine nationalism' and the political mess that causes and gives legitimacy to delays. The UK government have done a fine job of damage limitation with an efficient vaccine program, buutttt are running low on stocks for lower risk population and vaccination booster. What will also save face there is the ridiculous levels of no show for vax appointments which is in region of 50% in some centres daily!! (AZ vaccine is about 75!% effective so combine the math and there is plenty to go before early progress can truly be called) add in the safety net that there is argument for pause on side-effects and yeah there is political credibility on the line along with bureaucratic messing - some intentional and some just covering asses. Its is not easy to get consistent stats on whether vaccination of UK population (England and Wales) include those that were no-show for their appointments! Numbers are going to be skewed as there some Trusts seem to include vaccines offered and not just those administered.... Numbers of disposed and spoiled vaccines are not seperated (by spoiled I mean broken vials or drawn up dose needing to be binned like if dropped on the floor).

The Leinster Rugby proposal is very good in principle and all things working well is plausible but in practice we need to be a lot further on in general nationally on vaccine numbers. I was optimistic with the vaccine figures numbers suggested pre Christmas as doable but vaccine supplies didnt materialise, roll-out plans were manageable also. I cant see how even restricted and highly monitored attendances at Leinster games will be allowed when there is so much pressure on reopening hospitality for example, which will be the true test of where we're at overall. Time lapse between this proposal and seeing any trends would have to be 3 weeks minimum and then tracking any trend/spread after. Pressure come on from GAA who have seriously blotted their copybook so that conflict will likely be sidestepped rather than letting fans at rugby but not for Gaelic Football and Hurling championships. For LoI what Leinster are trying to do is not feasible across all grounds. There could be an argument made for holding a number of games on a day in some venues like the Aviva and Thomand, maybe Tallaght. Again doable but with a lot of cost and a whole lot of precision organisation and coordination. Leinster are hoping to try out their plan on the back of needing to decide on Euro '20 games and IRFU could also benefit then but the can of worms will sway things away!!

[gufct]

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/galway-united-handed-3-0-walkover-after-cancelled-fixture-at-cabinteely-40314670.html?fbclid=IwAR2DrCxI74fNPuqHnUM3Y_Z-ii1bDSUyftw5yHverTrQ-ZlQOS8z_ARbaK4

[2 Year Contract]

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/galway-united-handed-3-0-walkover-after-cancelled-fixture-at-cabinteely-40314670.html?fbclid=IwAR2DrCxI74fNPuqHnUM3Y_Z-ii1bDSUyftw5yHverTrQ-ZlQOS8z_ARbaK4

Proper order. I find it hard to believe that Cabinteely didn’t have 14 players available between their massive 34 man first team squad as well as their under 19s squad.

[sbgawa]

Proper order. I find it hard to believe that Cabinteely didn’t have 14 players available between their massive 34 man first team squad as well as their under 19s squad.


The 34 man squad includes the 19s i think (or at least a lot of them) dont disagree with your point though.
Are the 19's back training?

[Briuk]

First and only league in the world to award 3 points against a team with Covid.

I shouldn't be surprised when we are the only country in the world to have the whole "junior - intermediate" eco system football instead of a proper pyramidal structure

[Buller]

The Brits put s venture capitalist in charge of their roll out , we put a retired academic in charge of ours....QED

I think its more an issue of supply than rollout. US and UK have vaccine export bans from the very start, EU does not and operates as free market (up until a March that is!).

Any vaccines that enter Ireland are normally administered within days, excluding the Astrazenica BS.

[Nesta99]

The issue is all about supply, rollout was well set to do the job and teething problems mainly sorted. The way its happened now, while it was quiet, is a bit of fortune or we'd spend years finding out about crony vaccination scandals.

[sbgawa]

I think the decision by NIAC to ban the AZ vaccine for under 60s is typical of the approach of NPHET HSE , they are covering their asses in case someone gets a bloodclot at 1 in a million because that would be a visible result of their decision while they don't care about the far greater number affected by a lengthening lockdown, undiagnosed cancers , suicides etc....these people wont be attributed to them so thats fine.
Cover your own ass to hell with the country and enjoy your high salary while you put people on social welfare. We need a public enquiry at the end of this and NPHET NIAC HSE managers should be subject to assessment and dismissal.

The HSE were incompetant before pandemic so we shouldnt be surprised they are still incompetant.

[Nesta99]

I think the decision by NIAC to ban the AZ vaccine for under 60s is typical of the approach of NPHET HSE , they are covering their asses in case someone gets a bloodclot at 1 in a million because that would be a visible result of their decision while they don't care about the far greater number affected by a lengthening lockdown, undiagnosed cancers , suicides etc....these people wont be attributed to them so thats fine.
Cover your own ass to hell with the country and enjoy your high salary while you put people on social welfare. We need a public enquiry at the end of this and NPHET NIAC HSE managers should be subject to assessment and dismissal.

The HSE were incompetant before pandemic so we shouldnt be surprised they still are still incompetant.
The above is both relative and quite sweeping which I can understand but isnt always true throughout the service!

There people are undoubtedly victims of covid whether contracting the virus or not. I would agree that a public enquiry is needed after this but not as a witch hunt, the failings of the HSE probably needs and enquiry irrespective of covid. But while I understand the impression given when a vaccine is suspended I do think its a necessary precaution. Its also more EU direction rather than local. It does mean that a superior alternative vaccine (more expensive) with better coverage and so far no trend indicated to stop this vaccine, and always the vaccine of preference. Focus on Pfizer, assuming they dont come up short on delivery. means the schedule in place can still be met irrespective of the AZ and J&J being suspended for cohorts.

[sbgawa]

They didn't know about the extra Pfizer allocation when they suspended the AZ Vaccine so they were slowing the roll out as far as they were aware for a tiny risk but then they are in no hurry and their primary motivation has always been to be ultra cautious so they cant be blamed for anything.

My mother told me to cough into my hand to prevent "spreading your germs about" but it took "20" scientific studies and 6 months before these muppets agreed masks were a good idea. Everyone knew they were a good idea but they wouldn't push it until they had massive back up to cover their asses.

We desperately need a Public enquiry into these cartels HSE NPHET NIAC and IF they are adjudged to have performed poorly there needs to be sanctions just like there would be in the private sector for incompetance.
The increase in the secretary generals in dept of health salary from 211k to 290k was justified as allowing them to attract the best and the brightest to the job, then they give it to the guy who was in the job already on a temporary basis having been transferred from another dept. Give me strength.

The phrase lions led by donkeys from the first world war describing the soldiers is a good description for the minority (becoming a smaller minority all the time as HSE recruit more managers) of frontline staff.

[Calcio Jack]

We need the head of the HSE to explain as to why all HSE staff including admin staff working from home and/or admin staff who never engage with the public were offered and given the vaccine - Paul Reid keeps avoiding that question or making bland statements about numbers being low and how difficult it is to come up with the exact number ; still let’s deflect and make lots of noise about 20 teachers in a private’ school jumping the queue and ignore the thousands of HSE who put themselves ahead of the elderly etc.

[Nesta99]

We need the head of the HSE to explain as to why all HSE staff including admin staff working from home and/or admin staff who never engage with the public were offered and given the vaccine - Paul Reid keeps avoiding that question or making bland statements about numbers being low and how difficult it is to come up with the exact number ; still let’s deflect and make lots of noise about 20 teachers in a private’ school jumping the queue and ignore the thousands of HSE who put themselves ahead of the elderly etc.

There is a balance to be had of course but a health service needs its admin sections functioning along with clinical departments or it will cease to function. There is a community risk to those admin staff even if at home as it is a pandemic and if stay at home guidelines were cover protection we wouldnt be worrying about vaccines But if people have been vaccinated who are over suspended clinics and havent been allocated to a functioning department then yes questions need to be asked. If all admin staff at the Department of Health were vaccinated then that is a big story. The Beacon Hospital incident was a disgusting incident and decision by Beacon management, there may have been some rationale if it were a local school but its was blatant abuse of position and so their service and the large amount of money that went with was quickly suspended. It may seem disproportionate or 'noise' but it was a deterrent to others. Who hand picked 20 of their teaching staff and why would be interesting and it has seriously undermined a lot of staff in that school so I hope they reap what theyve sown.


They didn't know about the extra Pfizer allocation when they suspended the AZ Vaccine so they were slowing the roll out as far as they were aware for a tiny risk but then they are in no hurry and their primary motivation has always been to be ultra cautious so they cant be blamed for anything.

My mother told me to cough into my hand to prevent "spreading your germs about" but it took "20" scientific studies and 6 months before these muppets agreed masks were a good idea. Everyone knew they were a good idea but they wouldn't push it until they had massive back up to cover their asses.

We desperately need a Public enquiry into these cartels HSE NPHET NIAC and IF they are adjudged to have performed poorly there needs to be sanctions just like there would be in the private sector for incompetance.
The increase in the secretary generals in dept of health salary from 211k to 290k was justified as allowing them to attract the best and the brightest to the job, then they give it to the guy who was in the job already on a temporary basis having been transferred from another dept. Give me strength.

The phrase lions led by donkeys from the first world war describing the soldiers is a good description for the minority (becoming a smaller minority all the time as HSE recruit more managers) of frontline staff.

I have no particular Grá for the HSE, a very close family member needed multiple amputations as a result of negligence post partum, I have limited experience working directly for the HSE but it was enough - I have witnessed patient records being adjusted after a clinical incident, reported it, watched the behaviour after, and why i never wanted to work with the HSE regardless of how convenient it might have been. But at the same time they are something of a patsy for adverse incidents in the country. I can assure you that the HSE is no more open to errors than the NHS or even the excellently funded French health system. I can see why people would be frustrated by what is apparent delays in implementing protocols but everything in healthcare is evidence driven and it has to be! The example of masks, at face value (pardon the pun) it made sense, but consideration had to be given on whether masks could be riskier fomites, create vectors themselves, would people feel protected and drop their guard so masking up could worsen the situation. We didnt know what standard of mask was needed earlier days, with a worldwide shortage of PPE could you redirect masks away from frontline staff. Id be pretty sure looking back that any mask directive happened as supplies improved otherwise the lack of supplies can cause panic and not everyone is as rational as us LoI fans. Covering coughs by coughing in to an elbow is less about suppressing viral spread of the cough and more about not touching the face and surroundings with hands that may carry the virus (coughing in to the hand would make things a whole lot worse but our parents woudnt have known that until the evidence mounted that it was a cause of infection in itself but subtle adjustment to the elbow was better). People wearing gloves would be a disaster as the research showed that people rarely changed glove, forgot about them, never washed hands and continued to touch the face with the gloves in some belief that the gloves themselves didnt become contaminated. I have heard similar commets on the use of masks and gloves, but evidence based data eventually showed that there was an overall benefit to wearing masks, but an overall risk to wearing gloves. It takes time and not time that some people have, but you cant implement policy without the weight of evidence - otherwise a whole load of us would be suffering liver condition after popping hydroxychloroquine, I drug that I would have expected to have some net benefit tbh until the evidence suggested otherwise. If policy dictated the use of masks and evidence subsequently show little impact then the issue would be about govt concern on optics and unnecessarily wasting resources, Damed if you do damned if you dont.

Claims of Tony Holohan becoming power hungry and wasnt letting go, loving the limelight etc was unfair, considering his wifes health during their crisis. I have yet to see where NPHET have gone badly wrong and indeed it was not heeding their advice kickstarted this wave and subsequent lockdown. I think an independent enquiry in to the overall management of an unprecedented public health emergency in due course would just be good practice but not with undertones or accusations of sub par performance. If that is the case then it will be identified of not then credit where credit is due. Cartels? or coordinated strategy, consultation and joined up thinking? The breaking of rank between Govt and NPHET, where finger pointing started and undermined public confidence will be identified as failed moment and the start of this current extended lockdown, Vaccine rollout - well if the Germans, Canadians, French have difficulty as major biopharma hubs, its indicative of problems in international supply chains more than local rollout. Maybe we should have broke ranks with the EU and had a joint strategy with the UK?? We'd probably be further along with early vaccination - but id still rather be part of a 27 country bloc of 500mil people going forward than in the UK's situation. This is simply as there is a long long way to go on covid-19, AZ vaccines are drying up, questions on rates of efficacy and side effects and it very likely to be less adaptable to variants - but like everything else that will be a wait an see. The showing up of variants from India in the UK that are of much more concern than the UK and Brazil variants, coupled with the over enthusiastic lifting of restrictions where people have gathered in large number eg London's West End, could completely undo the progress mad there. Its frustrating for sure but evidence based, sure footed progress, is going to trump the race to claim to have been the saviour of a nation to save a political career. Time will tell and im finding it odd that booster jabs for NHS staff are already being scheduled and if you have one type of vaccine, prior to Christmas 2021 it will be another vaccine given.

Are you sure that the changes to AZ protocols were made without knowledge of improved supplies from Pfizer pending?!

Its all been a sh1tshow but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater! As a people, historically, we have little reason to trust those in power, elected or privilaged, but not all that are trying to navigate through this as quickly as is deemed responsible, are malevolent, self serving types, out to get one over the masses!!!

[John83]

Agreed. I have a middle-aged cousin, a HSE accountant working from home. She's vaccinated, while her dad who has pre-existing conditions is not. It's bonkers.

[sbgawa]

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Claims of Tony Holohan becoming power hungry and wasnt letting go, loving the limelight etc was unfair, considering his wifes health during their crisis.


I have every sympathy for his PRIVATE situation but do believe he and most of the guys at the top of the HSE are the best possible illustration of the Peter Principle where everyone is promoted until they reach their level of incompetence.

Fair play to you btw for speaking out when you saw records altered , its always easier to look away particularly in collegiate type of settings