Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Have you actually read the Pat's statement or just gone mad on Google finding links?

"Thanks to the agreement of our players and staff who agreed adjustments to their contracts, we have up to now maintained everyone in employment. However, it is impossible for us to continue to do this when it is now uncertain that football, and our budgeted income stream, will resume at any time this year. It would be imprudent for us to attempt to do so and would jeopardise the survival of our club. We cannot take that chance.

"When there is greater clarity on this, and on the arrangements for completing the current season, we will be in a position to address our commitments to all our stakeholders to include Players, Management, Coaching Staff, Volunteers, Patrons, Season Ticket Holders, Sponsors, our Academy and all the St Pat's community."

Their players are laid off. Don't be hanging on this word "temporarily". If the LOI resumes this year, the statement suggests Pat's may be happy to resume their contracts with the players ("in a position to address our commitment" isn't clear though).

Players can still go elsewhere if they want to though. They can get their registration released by the FAI so that they are a free agent and not tied to their old club when the July transfer window passes.

Most of the league's contracts will have to the end of season 2020 on them, so "temporarily" is irrelevant if the season is cancelled, which is the most likely outcome at this stage.

If you truly believe what you've just said then words fail me.

Also they'll actually have, until the conclusion of the season or a minimum of x weeks whichever is the longer term. Shows how much you know.


We have no rights to sell for streaming, according to Neil O'Riordan's article today, which would kill off generating any money from that avenue this year.

The source said: “You cannot just start streaming games with a new partner if you have contracts in place. You would have to buy them out, at least in part.

“But why would those companies give up their rights at a time like this when everyone wants live content? They would surely want to show those matches themselves under the terms of the existing deals."

Notice how I said a company enquired about them and not something else. I, like you haven't a clue what the FAIs TV deals entail but we know an American company enquired about them which is all I said...

[The Lilywhites]

In fairness, there's a difference between a temporary lay-off and a full lay-off.

A company is entitled to temporarily lay staff off for up to 8 weeks in the case of adverse trading conditions such as this (or if a company is in examinership and may be about to be bought out). That doesn't mean they can tear up the contracts though.

If the temporary lay-off goes on beyond 8 weeks, the employee can claim redundancy, but otherwise I think it would be considered that there is still a contract in place if/when the company resumes trading. Certainly the employee still has some statutory rights - see here (https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/redundancy/lay_off_short_time_working_and_redundancy.html#l54 799). Specifically - "A lay-off does not involve the termination of your contract of employment, whereas a redundancy does"

Making the entire first-team squad redundant and then hiring different players later in the season could also be tricky. You make a position redundant, not a person - so you can't make your goalkeeper redundant and then sign a new one.

it's a tricky situation, and I suspect the reality is that a lot of contracts are going to have to be mutually re-agreed given these are clearly exceptional circumstances.

Just wondering where is that written about "up to 8 weeks"?

Irrelevant in this conversation but you have to be employed by the company for 104 weeks continuously to claim a redundancy payment.

Agree it's a tricky situation, but Pat's have left it open to maybe resume contracts if the 2020 season restarts if the players wish, which is fair enough in that case.

That's between the clubs and players, they may agree to continue as they were or with some adjustments, but if the season is cancelled then the contract (stating end of 2020 season) does not come into effect if the company resumes trading in 2021.

If Waterford don't play again in 2020, they don't owe a penny to players or staff whose contracts end this year.


If you truly believe what you've just said then words fail me.

Also they'll actually have, until the conclusion of the season or a minimum of x weeks whichever is the longer term. Shows how much you know.

Why do you just shoot down what people say without actually making your own point.


Notice how I said a company enquired about them and not something else. I, like you haven't a clue what the FAIs TV deals entail but we know an American company enquired about them which is all I said...

Notice how I said the rights are already sold for 2020 so it doesn't really matter who enquired about it, does it?

Clubs should be allowed to sell their own games for streaming if they want to, but that's something that will have to be agreed with the FAI and RTE/eir Sport when the rights deals are renewed.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Why do you just shoot down what people say without actually making your own point.



Notice how I said the rights are already sold for 2020 so it doesn't really matter who enquired about it, does it?

Clubs should be allowed to sell their own games for streaming if they want to, but that's something that will have to be agreed with the FAI and RTE/eir Sport when the rights deals are renewed.

I have done nothing but make counter points, I've even linked government information making distinctions between permanent and temporary lay offs. There's not much more I can do, you simply refuse to get it.


Again you've missed the point, the reason I pointed it out was that American companies are looking for sports to cover during the pandemic so the enquiry may have been out of desperation for content and as a result not sustainable once their normal content resumes, and thus not as good as it first seemed.

[The Lilywhites]

I have done nothing but make counter points, I've even linked government information making distinctions between permanent and temporary lay offs. There's not much more I can do, you simply refuse to get it.

No, you didn't. Stu posted a link with that info and explained why. You randomly posted links about the pandemic payment. Temporary lay offs are irrelevant for contracts that end at the end of season 2020 anyway, hence why I said don't get hung up on the word "temporarily".


Again you've missed the point, the reason I pointed it out was that American companies are looking for sports to cover during the pandemic so the enquiry may have been out of desperation for content and as a result not sustainable once their normal content resumes, and thus not as good as it first seemed.

That's brilliant, but the rights aren't available for sale so why do you keep going on about it.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

No, you didn't. Stu posted a link with that info and explained why. You randomly posted links about the pandemic payment. Temporary lay offs are irrelevant for contracts that end at the end of season 2020 anyway, hence why I said don't get hung up on the word "temporarily".



That's brilliant, but the rights aren't available for sale so why do you keep going on about it.

Clearly it's just not going to get through to your head so slán

[The Lilywhites]

Hallelujah. Onto the ignore list you go.

[pineapple stu]

Just wondering where is that written about "up to 8 weeks"?
Well, that's how it was when I was on temporary layoff back in 2011; that's all I'm going on really. Certainly a company can't "temporarily" indefinitely lay you off.


Irrelevant in this conversation but you have to be employed by the company for 104 weeks continuously to claim a redundancy payment.
Yes, that is irrelevant here really. You still have statutory rights and can only be made redundant if the position (footballer, say) is being done away with.

Of more relevance is your probationary period - you can be let go at any time in the first year of your contract for no reason at all. The old "It's just not working out" trick. Given most LoI employments are quite short-term, that might apply - and yet I have to imagine the fixed-term nature of LoI contracts precludes it, otherwise you'd have heard of it happening. (A contract can be mutually terminated of course, but that's not the same thing; it requires the player to agree).

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Well, that's how it was when I was on temporary layoff back in 2011; that's all I'm going on really. Certainly a company can't "temporarily" indefinitely lay you off.


Yes, that is irrelevant here really. You still have statutory rights and can only be made redundant if the position (footballer, say) is being done away with.

Of more relevance is your probationary period - you can be let go at any time in the first year of your contract for no reason at all. The old "It's just not working out" trick. Given most LoI employments are quite short-term, that might apply - and yet I have to imagine the fixed-term nature of LoI contracts precludes it, otherwise you'd have heard of it happening. (A contract can be mutually terminated of course, but that's not the same thing; it requires the player to agree).


Thats where FIFA come in

Article 13 states that a contract between a professional and a club may only be terminated upon expiry of the term of the contract or by mutual agreement.
However, under Article 14, a contract may be terminated by either party without consequences of any kind (either payment of compensation or imposition of sporting sanctions) where there is ‘just cause’. Just cause is not defined but would cover, for example, where a player has not been paid for months.
Article 15, allows an ‘established professional’ to terminate his contract on the grounds of ‘sporting just cause’ if he has appeared in fewer than 10% of the official matches in which his club has been involved during the season. If a sporting just cause is found, sporting sanctions (see below) won’t be imposed, though compensation may be payable. A player can only terminate his contract on this basis in the 15 days following the last official match of the season of the club with which he is registered.
Article 16 states that a contract cannot be unilaterally terminated during the course of a season.

Also by the way Article 16 proves that Waterford and Pats have indeed temporarily laid off players, not permanently

[nigel-harps1954]

In the scenario that the 2020 season cannot be completed (good chance) what will happen to the 2002/2021 euro reps?

1/ Look at the coefficient over 5 years ?

The would put DFC in as CL rep, Rovers in EL, then Cork could be back in the frame, and one from Derry / Pats also for EL.

2/ Heard it mentioned somewhere else, but there was mention of a play off between Rovers (3 points with 6 games only played) and Dundalk for the 2021 CL spot.

I can't see that happening.

Galway United are currently preparing their DVD.


In terms of TV rights, precendence has been set with multiple deals already in place for broadcast rights in Ireland. There's no 'exclusive' rights to games.

What essentially could happen, is that another company could come in for additional broadcast rights, allowing RTE or Eir Sport their pick of the games in which they want to show, and the other company then streams the rest of them, or someone like Virgin Media, with multiple Sports channels, could show the rest of the games there. (Rumoured incoming CEO being the outgoing Virgin Media boss)

As the Trackchamp deal doesn't air on any TV stations, only via betting websites, and for club use in analysis, I'm sure another loophole will be found there in terms of actually broadcasting games.

Alternatively, in the scenario that RTE or Eir Sport could block this move, if an American company wanted the 'American rights' to LOI football, they are well within their rights to seek that, as such a deal doesn't exist. Likewise, there's no current 'UK rights'. That list could go on until someone bulk buys the rights to any given countries rights to show LOI games. Niall Quinn might get that Chinese TV deal after all.

[pineapple stu]

LoI now likely off until September (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/sport/league-of-ireland/league-of-ireland-season-not-expected-to-resume-until-september/ar-BB13KMSV?li=BBr5KbJ&ocid=mailsignout) - from today's Mirror. Mentions the Super Cup idea for clubs in Europe as well - if there is a Europe.

The league being postponed until Sept raises obvious questions as to what format it's going to take. But realistically, given timelines are being pushed out with regularity, it's pretty much impossible to make a real call until we know when football can resume.

[osarusan]

We will see how other leagues cope with earlier resumptions, and whether Covid19 will just grind them to a halt again.

Even then, those leagues are playing behind closed doors and are likely to be implementing a pretty rigorous testing programme for games, and I'm not sure LOI clubs could take the costs of either. BBC article on the Scottish PL estimating the costs of testing for their remaining games at minimum £100,000 per club.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Think we were third highest in Europe with percentage of income related to gate receipts so struggling to see the merits of a restart if it is behind closed doors and ends up breaking most clubs

[D24Saint]

Is there still clubs paying 100% of wages ? Shamrock Rovers are paying out 75% I think. There has been nothing from Dundalk about wages has there.

This is how the Premier stands AFAIK.

Bohs: 100% wages
Cork: Laid off
Derry: 100% wages
Dundalk: 100% wages
Finn Harps: ?
Pats: Laid off
Sham Rovers: 75%
Shels: 100%
Sligo: Laid off
Waterford: Laid off

Any updates to this.

[sidewayspasser]

I've tried to figure out what the situation is in the other summer leagues, as some of them are smaller leagues as well who might face similar challenges. Except for Belarus who have continued playing, all of them had their season interrupted or their start of the season delayed. The Faroes seem to be the first ones who get back playing.

Belarus: Playing.
Estonia: One round played before shutdown.
Faroes: Start their season this weekend. The islands seem to be Covid-free now, so I would assume they play in front of fans.
Finland: No matches played yet.
Georgia: Two rounds played before shutdown.
Iceland: No matches played yet.
Kazakhstan: Two and a half rounds played before shutdown.
Latvia: No matches played yet.
Lithuania: One round played before shutdown.
Moldova: No matches played yet.
Norway: No matches played yet. Apparently starting behind closed doors on 16 June.
Sweden: No matches played yet. Targeting a start on 14 June with crowds permitted.

It will be interesting to see how the smaller ones among these are trying to get back playing, or whether they write off their seasons eventually.
If geysir is here: Any update on when Iceland is hoping to start their season?

[pineapple stu]

Kazakhstan: Two and a half rounds played before shutdown.
I know what you mean here, but I like the idea of referees abandoning games at half-time as hacking coughs sweep across the pitch. :)

[RathfarnhamHoop]

https://youtu.be/3Rh4rKCykmM

A glimpse at what might be coming down the road for us

[Nesta99]

The Swedish decision could be early enough to see if covid trends are affected if September becomes the adjusted season target start. Any spike in infection rates are bound to be watched for closely. Not an exact comparison for a number of reasons but would be an indicator of what could be done! We can only hope that the general public testing system is sorted out as damn all will change for so called non-essential industry like sport. Actually another thing will be interesting is if/when restrictions start being lifted on pubs/clubs!

[oriel]

Is there still clubs paying 100% of wages ? Shamrock Rovers are paying out 75% I think. There has been nothing from Dundalk about wages has there.

This is how the Premier stands AFAIK.

Bohs: 100% wages
Cork: Laid off
Derry: 100% wages
Dundalk: 100% wages
Finn Harps: ?
Pats: Laid off
Sham Rovers: 75%
Shels: 100%
Sligo: Laid off
Waterford: Laid off

Any updates to this.

Did you not just ask and answer your own Q ? Anyway Dundalk's owners p6 confirmed in March they would continue pay full wages for the squad, mgt and admin staff, they didn't confirm for how long though.

Personally, I would have put them on 75%, most in any other industry who are WFH are doing full WFH and get 100% wages, not so for a footballer.

[wonder88]

I felt Uachtarán GAA spoke well on telly last, pointing out games without fans is not an option really. Because of the size of GAA grounds games with reduced crowds is more realistic. This all depends on government allowing this to happen. October for the championship was the timescale he has in mind.
A winter season with small crowds spectating keeping a distance from each would be a good target for the league of Ireland ?

[Finlay Harp]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52615488

[nigel-harps1954]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52615488

I'm sure Galway would love to have to travel to Derry and Ballybofey in two buses instead of the likes of Athlone and Longford.

[The Lilywhites]

According to a report the other day it's a 50/50 split with the Premier clubs on behind closed doors.

Waterford, Pat's, Sligo, Harps and Cork have pretty much said they're against it.

So that leaves the 4 European clubs and Shels, presumably, who want to play BCD.

Where are Shels getting all their money from?

Could the Premier resume with only 5 clubs if the other 5 refuse to play...

[D24Saint]

Did you not just ask and answer your own Q ? Anyway Dundalk's owners p6 confirmed in March they would continue pay full wages for the squad, mgt and admin staff, they didn't confirm for how long though.

Personally, I would have put them on 75%, most in any other industry who are WFH are doing full WFH and get 100% wages, not so for a footballer.

I clearly stated AFAIK. The assumption of Dundalk paying 100% was based on their strong financial position.

[redobit]

According to a report the other day it's a 50/50 split with the Premier clubs on behind closed doors.

Waterford, Pat's, Sligo, Harps and Cork have pretty much said they're against it.

So that leaves the 4 European clubs and Shels, presumably, who want to play BCD.

Where are Shels getting all their money from?

Could the Premier resume with only 5 clubs if the other 5 refuse to play...

The FAI or other LOI clubs can't make 5 clubs (or even 1 club for that matter) play behind closed doors if it means that a club cant sustain their costs. If all clubs can't agree or if it can't come back in the same guile as the first 4 or 5 games then it will likely go one way, which is scrapping it. Even if all clubs could agree to BHD there will definitely be conditions for that to happen, like teams reducing their budget in line with crowds BHD for example, which would not be the same scenario that clubs started the season i.e. a different league!. Some clubs that are pro BHD could form a mini league of course, but that would be an absolute joke really.

[vinnie]

Best start to a season for us in about a thousand years, (probably closer to 25) but to be honest If one club wants season cancelled I think its a time we should all stick together and maybe go that way, I'd be 100% against empty stadiums just to get the league finished, last thing we need is clubs going to the wall, it's looking very likely that uefa are going to cancel the CL & EL qualifiers and not payout so are we all not in the same boat now, we have to remember that we all kinda rely on each other to survive. As much as we hate each other we are all the one LOI family, and while Rovers and Dundalk seem OK money wise, you have to look back and think it's not that long ago that we had buckets out at games too, what comes around goes around, we need to have a unified approach to this

[Nesta99]

I had heard and read the opposite on paying out if qualifiers were culled due to the very likely risk of some club looking at the legalities especially if there is a straight to group stage going to happen. There was also the possibility that if the 19/20 European comps are not played out then the remaining unplayed for prize money could be reallocated but remaining clubs are looking for the money to be shared omong them. Neither are entirely unreasonable but if UEFA's cash reserves take a battering then the most likely thing imo is that the money could be carried over for 20/21 and plug the financial hole of lost tv revenue etc.

[oriel]

I clearly stated AFAIK. The assumption of Dundalk paying 100% was based on their strong financial position.

https://www.dundalkfc.com/a-message-from-the-board-of-directors/

Doesn't state for how long though.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

We have no rights to sell for streaming, according to Neil O'Riordan's article today, which would kill off generating any money from that avenue this year.

The source said: “You cannot just start streaming games with a new partner if you have contracts in place. You would have to buy them out, at least in part.

“But why would those companies give up their rights at a time like this when everyone wants live content? They would surely want to show those matches themselves under the terms of the existing deals."

Worth pointing out Niall Quinn rubbished this on LOI weekly.

It's something that 99% of suspected for fairly obvious reasons but good to have it confirmed

[D24Saint]

Does the LOI have an official tv deal , I always thought the showing of games was only ad hoc.

[Martinho II]

Does the LOI have an official tv deal , I always thought the showing of games was only ad hoc.

I think there is with RTE and Eir sport and then deal with is it Track Champ or something comparable to online matches?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Does the LOI have an official tv deal , I always thought the showing of games was only ad hoc.

RTE and Eir have deals for 17 and 15 games a year respectively while trackchamp have the rights to supply the betting companies with a feed.

So basically the only rights we have sold are betting coverage and 32 domestic TV coverage games a year (17 of which being rte you'd assume also have online domestic rights). Which is a very small amount of potential rights.

[joey B]

https://www.sseairtricityleague.ie/news/fai-announce-a-number-of-key-updates-for-loi-clubs-/id-3302

Four SSE Airtricity League clubs – Dundalk, Shamrock Rovers, Derry City and Bohemians - will be invited to return to training initially followed by a return to playing, in a behind closed doors tournament, as part of a pilot programme for a return to football for everyone.

Players and staff from the four invited SSE Airtricity League clubs will undergo regular COVID-19 testing from May 26.

The four invited SSE Airtricity League clubs can return to collective training on June 8th.

These four clubs will participate in a four-team tournament at a neutral venue, ahead of their European Club competition games in late July/ early August.

The four-team tournament will provide all stakeholders with an opportunity to learn in the current environment from these games, thus providing a safer template for SSE Airtricity League, International games and all football going forward.

All other SSE Airtricity League squads can return to collective training on June 29th under Phase Three of the Government’s Roadmap For Reopening Society and Business, with players and staff undergoing regular COVID-19 testing.

[D24Saint]

If the clubs themselves are happy to do it then no harm in the mini tournament. The assumption seems to be that Uefa will hold the qualifiers in the autumn a big assumption considering last year’s tournaments remain unfinished. I wonder are Uefa coming to the conclusion to give up on the current tournaments and aim for next years with procedures in place.

[total hoofball]

The 4 teams have to do whatever they have to do in order to prepare for resumption of European football with their finances on the line but that the FAI statement again leaves nobody the wiser on how closed-doors football is going to be viable for the remaining 15 clubs to pay salaries and increased expenses

[RathfarnhamHoop]

The 4 teams have to do whatever they have to do in order to prepare for resumption of European football with their finances on the line but that the FAI statement again leaves nobody the wiser on how closed-doors football is going to be viable for the remaining 15 clubs to pay salaries and increased expenses

Don't know the ins and outs but Quinn was saying on LOI Weekly that they were close to a way to making it viable and I've heard they're going to contact clubs Monday about how to do so so I guess something has been arranged but I'm sceptical to say the least.

[Nesta99]

The 4 teams have to do whatever they have to do in order to prepare for resumption of European football with their finances on the line but that the FAI statement again leaves nobody the wiser on how closed-doors football is going to be viable for the remaining 15 clubs to pay salaries and increased expenses

Yeah its sensible to have somthing in place just in case of a resumption. I'd think that such a mini tournament could be moved back too if need be and things become clearer. With 3 clubs (? not sure about Derry) still paying players, its less hassle in relative terms to organise some sort of warm up games and adjust the schedule accordingly. Testing seemed to be a main obstacle in terms of cost, but if the FAI have managed to arrange something its part of the way there. It will certainly be interesting to hear more detail tomorrowish.

[Kingswood Rover]

Would have to be a tv deal one would imagine to make it viable.

[Nesta99]

Would have to be a tv deal one would imagine to make it viable.

Banking ona dearth of live football? If things take a twist in England which is still possible such is the confusion, and the EPL gets delayed then would be interest. Though unless deals with RTE/EIR can be dealt with? It wouldnt be LoI though so ye never know, it could be a bit of an earner.

[Mr_Parker]

How is insurance for players and staff being dealt with?

[Nesta99]

That would be an ecumenical matter!

Rhetorical question I presume - is it a matter that hasnt been addressed so far? The detail is what will make or break any future proposal be it Lucid's or not. Until the major variables can be sorted, there wont be a proposal that sticks and we all know this.

[Mr_Parker]

That would be an ecumenical matter!

Rhetorical question I presume - is it a matter that hasnt been addressed so far? The detail is what will make or break any future proposal be it Lucid's or not. Until the major variables can be sorted, there wont be a proposal that sticks and we all know this.

Have you confused the threads Nesta?

[Bucket]

Good point. Insurers seem to be saying they don't cover Covid19. They're really affecting Irish society, especially in the past 10 years or so. White collar extortion

[The Lilywhites]

According to reports the other day, the FAI's whole financial plan on a resumption is based on them convincing the government to allow the wage subsidy scheme to stay in place for clubs!

[sidewayspasser]

Given that the government is being asked for financial support left, right and centre at the moment, that plan will surely work out perfectly.

[nigel-harps1954]

How does the wage subsidy work for players from outside Ireland? Do they qualify for any payments?

[Nesta99]

Have you confused the threads Nesta?

Wouldnt be the first time!!

[Yossarian]

How does the wage subsidy work for players from outside Ireland? Do they qualify for any payments?

As far as I’m aware the requirements for the covid payment are nowhere near as strict as normal welfare payments and once the players are employed here and have an Irish address then they qualify.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Wage subsidy staying in place for clubs would just be the cherry on top for clubs. Once that ends that's more than likely the emergency period over which means temporary layoffs can't continue so clubs have to either start paying players again, buy them out, or make the position redundant which as a football clubs its sort of hard to make the position of footballer redundant.

[Mr_Parker]

How is insurance for players and staff being dealt with?

Anyone?

[Nesta99]

Anyone?

EPL players seemingly are being asked to sign a waiver. There havent been specifics but it doesnt seem to be waiving clubs' financial responsibility for players or what clubs could be exposed to (pardon the term) if players get infected. It could well be to do with insurance cover issues, though for most EPL clubs, are they waiving their right to claim against infected players wages I wonder? I'm sure zeros are being added to personal health insurance policies regardless. It's speculation of course rather than an answer and will differ due to scale. I cant see insurance companies being too quick to be helpful considering the hammering they are due, especially if there is a govt, directive on business protection cover, which is included in the programme for govt. currently being negotiated.