Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[Eminence Grise]

But you were quick to call him 'Herr' with all that implies - and, believe me, it's much too loud to be a dog whistle - when he spent far more time dealing with the pandemic than any man should have had to while his wife was dying. You have to accept you went too far with that.

[Nesta99]

The outcomes of covid aren't die or be grand. It can cause potentially serious long-term lung damage to anyone, particularly asthmatics or obese people .

1 in 3 on this small island. I get the distrust of politicians and civil servants but I dont get the issue with Hoolihan, and the other experts that are leading the national response to covid-19 and variants. I have seen nothing but excellence, sound if boring and repetitive advice, and when that advice was ignored we suffered! There will be an 'inquest' in to the national response to an unprecedented acute health emergency and it will tell its own tale in due course but there wont be a lot found lacking from a medical lead perspective. This is a precedence that will prepare for future potential healthcare issues to learn from. I will stand by by my previous opines on this all driving positive change in our healthcare system!! I do think that salaries are obscene for some admin in the area but again we shouldnt throw the baby out with the bathwater. It is odd that a head of a govt department earns double of An Taoiseach or the boss of Dr Hoolihan does likewise. They are the things that need fixing and shouldnt be mixed up as an entire service taking the p1ss!

[NeverFeltBetter]

NPHET a very easy target, and the government is the main offender in painting that target. It was the government who introduced a levels system and then instantly changed it, it was the government that put someone as unfit to just be a TD as Stephen Donnelly in the Health portfolio at a time of medical crisis and it was the government that decided we needed a "meaningful Christmas", which killed over 400 people in one week in February. Meanwhile Tony Hoolohan, whose expertise absolutely trumps the "I was elected, therefore I know what I'm doing" sentiment that gave us Harris, Donnelly and Foley as Ministers, gets called a fascist after he worked to keep the country safe while his wife was dying.

[sbgawa]

But you were quick to call him 'Herr' with all that implies - and, believe me, it's much too loud to be a dog whistle - when he spent far more time dealing with the pandemic than any man should have had to while his wife was dying. You have to accept you went too far with that.

My using Herr was to imply he was acting like a dictator and that is exactly what things had come to.
His opinion and no mitigating balancing factors because the weak Government were unwilling to apply logic when it came to obvious errors for fear of appearances.

[Eminence Grise]

Stop. Digging. The. Hole. Deeper.

You called the man a Nazi, but you haven't the courage to use the word. I had a neighbour many years ago who was a child in Germany in the 30s - she could have told you what living under a certain Herr was really like. Reply if you must, withdraw the comment because you should, but that's my last word on this: I'm not going to drag the thread off topic.

[Buller]

Catch and spread it to who? average age for deaths is mid 80's and we are now vaccinating 60 year olds.
Im not saying we open up everything right now but there is a reason why cases are still at 400-500 for ages but hospital admissions are going down down down, the people likely to die or get really sick are vacinated by now. Yes that doesnt mean everyone is 100% safe but life isnt 100% safe.

The problem is when arguing this POV you align yourself with some right nutjobs.
T

To be fair to you, I don't think the media do a very good job of explaining how dangerous covid is to anyone over 50.

Hospitalisation rate is high for anyone over 50. Once hospitals get overwhelmed and run out of staff and oxygen, death rate skyrockets for all ages.

India have vaccinated all their older ages, 11.8% of the population. They're currently scrambling to vaccinate 45-60 age range. You'll find its not 80 year olds dying over there.

https://dev3.ctlrn.com/GOODBODY/covid.jpg

10% of 50 year old men are admitted to hospital with a decent chance of dying or suffering long term lung damage, that is extremely high.

Hospitals will get overwhelmed if the virus runs rampant until all over 40's have been vaccinated.

[Dalymountrower]

My using Herr was to imply he was acting like a dictator and that is exactly what things had come to.
His opinion and no mitigating balancing factors because the weak Government were unwilling to apply logic when it came to obvious errors for fear of appearances.

The weakness of Government was in pandering to commercial, emotional and electoral interests over the clear advice from Public Health experts, logic didnt come into it.
I have known quite a few Chief Medical Officers in the DOH over the years and we have been extremely fortunate in this pandemic that we have had a stellar prize winning public health specialist in the Deputy CMO post in Ronan Glynn, and a resolute CMO who wont bow to the extraordinary political pressure ( particularly from Varadkar) placed on him to ignore the clear epidemiological advice. If that advice means that we don`t get into a ground this year, so be it.

[Buller]

Exactly. They were weak and bowed to industrial, and public, pressure and went against NPHET for 3 weeks in December because it was Christmas. FéĆkd us for months after and allowed the new more infectious UK variant to take hold quicker.

The easiest and more populist move to appease a population in the short term is always to ignore scientific advice and data. Shure, we'd have a great time for 3 weeks!

[sbgawa]

Stop. Digging. The. Hole. Deeper.

You called the man a Nazi, but you haven't the courage to use the word. I had a neighbour many years ago who was a child in Germany in the 30s - she could have told you what living under a certain Herr was really like. Reply if you must, withdraw the comment because you should, but that's my last word on this: I'm not going to drag the thread off topic.

Ok on reflection considering the far right anti masking nut jobs throw the Nazi term around i shouldn't have used the Herr part it was the dictator part i was implying. Withdrawn.
To be clear i don't think the guy is a Nazi but one of the weakest Governments this country has ever had have created a situation where one mans voice was seen as law and logical counter arguments on some points were ignored.
If we had a strong stable Government they would take advice balance the medical with the other views and make a decision, not just rubber stamp.

[pineapple stu]

logical counter arguments on some points were ignored.
Such as?

[Buller]

If we had a strong stable Government they would take advice balance the medical with the other views and make a decision, not just rubber stamp.

There's very little room to manoeuvre at the moment. The growth rate is already on a knife edge of R rate 1. The last thing we want to do is have to close things we have reopening in a few weeks.

R rate turns exponential very quickly and we're still not anywhere near vaccination levels for protecting against a hospital surge.

Your argument is centered around the fact you think Covid is harmless for anyone who isn't elderly. Thats not the case at all.

[DCSIL]

honestly think we have lost the plot as a country, there is zero leadership from Govt.
We should be allowing people who have been vaccinated to go to matches but instead our woke Government are worrying about discriminating against people that refuse a vaccine.
There is a thing called acceptable risk in life and with the country being run by Herr Houlihan and the politicians afraid to upset social media by taking any stance we will drag out reopening for months. We now have 34 people in ICU across 30 hospitals


The EU are bringing in vacine passports which will save us from our pathetic politicians who will listen to their masters as they are more afraid of them then the medics.

I expected to read this on Facebook, not on here!


Stop. Digging. The. Hole. Deeper.

You called the man a Nazi, but you haven't the courage to use the word. I had a neighbour many years ago who was a child in Germany in the 30s - she could have told you what living under a certain Herr was really like. Reply if you must, withdraw the comment because you should, but that's my last word on this: I'm not going to drag the thread off topic.

During the week i've read some stuff about what life was like for Working German People in the late 1930s, if that's something some aspire to when living in a Emergency period that's up to them in some sort of lower middle class revolt.
I'm sure they can find a country that does.Maybe for the sake of Ireland, we should cut off Donegal and appoint John Waters as King and Gemma O'Doherty as Queen. They won't like living under a Monarchy considering how often they bring it up!

[sbgawa]

Such as?
Policy monopoly conferred on NPHET and the HSE was hardwired to fail us on non-Covid public health matters - Michael McDowell (https://www.michaelmcdowell.ie/nphet.html)

This is the point i was trying to make about one voice but without the emotional language.
Balance

[pineapple stu]

That's an article dump, not a point though.

Can you summarise the key concern arising out of it and where you feel "balance" comes into it?

[sbgawa]

I linked the article because it says better than i could the problem, plus its not a very long article.

a two line summary would be
One viewpoint and issue seen as more important than anything else, cancer care , suicide , Economics, depression ,
Maybe it is more important but it shouldn't be the only consideration.

[pineapple stu]

The problem with just linking articles though is that it could be just a headline that agrees with your view - so it helps to see what the exact point is.

TBH, economics, suicide and depression can take a running jump as arguments at the moment. There is a lethal pandemic around which has filled ICU to capacity very quickly in a number of countries. You don't get to avoid that by saying that your mental health is more important. It's not. It's a self-centred, literally childish, argument. Let's lift lockdown and see how bad your mental health will really get when hospitals are back overflowing, people are dying, you can't get life-saving treatment because there isn't enough oxygen/beds/hospital staff to go around, and you end up living with 80% lung capacity for the rest of your life. (And I say that as someone who has had a close family member commit suicide recently, which can in part be attributed to covid lockdowns).

Cancer care - yes, it's there's an issue here, but again, there is a lethal pandemic about which is unprecedented in modern times, and our healthcare system simply isn't built for that. And that's not the HSE's fault - no modern healthcare system is built for it. This thing is unprecedented in modern times. We've seen that across the world as various countries struggle with this, and you have scenes of queues of ambulances outside hospitals, newspapers doubling in length to cater for obituaries, India running out of ****ing oxygen for God's sake. That's the reality, and wishing otherwise won't change things.

[Calcio Jack]

I linked the article because it says better than i could the problem, plus its not a very long article.

a two line summary would be
One viewpoint and issue seen as more important than anything else, cancer care , suicide , Economics, depression ,
Maybe it is more important but it shouldn't be the only consideration.

Personally Michael McDowell is the last person I’d use to support an argument - he’s an arrogant ( only surpassed by his boring brother Moore the pro free market economist who ironically had his inflated salary/pension protected by being a public servant) failed politician who during his time in government as a PD minister personified failure in public policy with his nearer Boston than Berlin destructive ‘free market’ approach to everything ( with the exception of Ministers/TDs salaries) - a not as clever as he thinks individual that sees himself as some sort of higher intellectual that knows what’s best for the rest of us - the epitome of everything that is so wrong about the Jesuits

I guess you could say I’m not a fan😄

[sbgawa]

Personally Michael McDowell is the last person I’d use to support an argument - he’s an arrogant ( only surpassed by his boring brother Moore the pro free market economist who ironically had his inflated salary/pension protected by being a public servant) failed politician who during his time in government as a PD minister personified failure in public policy with his nearer Boston than Berlin destructive ‘free market’ approach to everything ( with the exception of Ministers/TDs salaries) - a not as clever as he thinks individual that sees himself as some sort of higher intellectual that knows what’s best for the rest of us - the epitome of everything that is so wrong about the Jesuits

I guess you could say I’m not a fan

I'm not a fan myself i hesitated to use the link tbh but the article was balanced enough.
Never knew Moore was his brother

[Eminence Grise]

i shouldn't have used the Herr part it was the dictator part i was implying. Withdrawn.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

The McDowells are grandsons of Eoin MacNeill, which makes them nephews of Michael Tierney (ex Cumann na nGaedheal TD and UCD president - the Tierney Building in UCD) so the lineage is long and wide, and very free market. Not sure if they have views on the League of Ireland (though I suspect they would range from ambivalence to privatisation!).

[EalingGreen]

Your argument is centered around the fact you think Covid is harmless for anyone who isn't elderly. Thats not the case at all.
I'm not sufficiently familiar with the situation in ROI to comment generally, but I would add that a 45 y.o. who is very overweight or has Diabetes, for example, is probably at equal risk to an otherwise healthy 65 y.o.

[Dalymountrower]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

The McDowells are grandsons of Eoin MacNeill, which makes them nephews of Michael Tierney (ex Cumann na nGaedheal TD and UCD president - the Tierney Building in UCD) so the lineage is long and wide, and very free market. Not sure if they have views on the League of Ireland (though I suspect they would range from ambivalence to privatisation!).


Also known as "boots " Tierney, wouldn`t imagine that its an association football reference.

[John83]

I linked the article because it says better than i could the problem, plus its not a very long article.

a two line summary would be
One viewpoint and issue seen as more important than anything else, cancer care , suicide , Economics, depression ,
Maybe it is more important but it shouldn't be the only consideration.
Suicide rates are really not what people claim them to be: https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4352 most developed countries reported stable or falling rates of suicide last year, though that started to tick up again later on. It certainly seemed plausible that lockdown would cause a problem in that regard, but the evidence is against it.

[Nesta99]

Like them or loathe them but video calls eg zoom have resulted in higher levels of contact between many cohorts and various psychiatric services. Im not convinced that in person visits should be replaced in any way but but 'virtual appointments, contact and case reviews are better than nothing and the long waits for in house appointments pre covid anyway. Some sort of hybrid could improve service though. It will be interesting to see if there is any correlation between the trends mentioned by John and a forced new way of quicker engagement between psychiatric service providers and patients!?

[joey B]

I see Derry have asked supporters not congregate outside the ground now as well and are getting absolutely roasted by their own fans on Facebook , Harps got the same on Twitter for it, clubs can only do so much but can't make supporters listen to them....

[Martinho II]

I see Derry have asked supporters not congregate outside the ground now as well and are getting absolutely roasted by their own fans on Facebook , Harps got the same on Twitter for it, clubs can only do so much but can't make supporters listen to them....

Same at Oriel Park tonight also.But have Dundalk condoned it I wonder? The man with tannoy is a tad annoying!

[Calcio Jack]

Same at Oriel Park tonight also.But have Dundalk condoned it I wonder? The man with tannoy is a tad annoying!

Why is that the Garda fail to carry out simple policing ?

[Nesta99]

Why is that the Garda fail to carry out simple policing ?

Good question! The crowd were dispersed at the previous game, less there tonight but a lot seemed to be hanging about the fields behind and then went home. Garda chatted with those who remained. FFS its one step ladder used ro get up on the wall, just fcuking confiscate it and every one that there is an attempt to use after - problem solved! Dundalk cant actively do much outside the ground just ask for fans to repect restrictions, Gardai on the other hand are condoning things with inaction. How can they go break up a house party when live on TV are seen standing beside a large group chatting....

[joey B]

Waterford have stood down their entire first team and are playing their u19s tomorrow due to close contacts to two Covid cases...

[SeanDrog]

Waterford have stood down their entire first team and are playing their u19s tomorrow due to close contacts to two Covid cases...

Even though after testing their squad and all negative (if I’m reading their release correctly).

[Nesta99]

Just as an early reference point, and guide to how quickly the picture changes, here is the UK incident rate for covid-19 variants. First few are the UK variant so big numbers, then almost insignificant numbers for other variants until you scroll down to VOC-21APR-02 or the Indian variant of concern. Those numbers are not great, especially considering the vaccination rate is high in the UK compared to when the UK variant was detected, and travel restrictions bedded in now. With the opening up of the UK, football fans allowed back with restricted attendances etc. its very much a watch this space as over 1k cases may seem small enough now, it is against the number of the other variants bar the 1st outbreak of the UK variant which put us in to the 2nd lockdown. People are sick of the can being kicked down the road but i'd say this will be watched carefully well in to June so no unexpected early easing of restrictions i'd say.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-variants-genomically-confirmed-case-numbers/variants-distribution-of-cases-data#Variant12

[Straightstory]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0513/1221451-dundalk-players-to-pay-cost-of-covid-19-testing/

(On the video clip - Quite amusing to hear T O'D mention 'Home Farm' instead of 'Finn Harps').

[Longfordian]

I heard that last night and thought I was hearing things. Strange mistake to make.

[DCSIL]

Maybe TO'D has rumbled the next phase of the Confidence and Supply arrangement - Harps to be rebranded Home Farm and play in Whitehall?

[thebronze14]

Maybe TO'D has rumbled the next phase of the Confidence and Supply arrangement - Harps to be rebranded Home Farm and play in Whitehall?
That would be the dream....A five minute walk from me:)

[trevy]

Waterford confirmed another player tested positive for Covid yesterday. Rest of the squad being tested again tomorrow. Hopefully they are all clear and can get back training soon to prepare for next week's game v Derry.

[D24Saint]

The rumour for the return of spectators is five percent of capacity. Its a very conservative figure as surely ten percent could be achieved safely. I'm wondering does the five percent cap make a reopening financially unviable for LOI clubs. Take Richmond as an example I'm not fully sure of our official capacity but say four thousand , is it worth the red tape and safety measure's for two hundred punters.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Sure the ground was allowed 200 in it last season for a while

[D24Saint]

Statement from Derry City FC – Derry City Football Club (https://www.derrycityfc.net/2021/05/statement-from-derry-city-fc/)

[Charlie Darwin]

The rumour for the return of spectators is five percent of capacity. Its a very conservative figure as surely ten percent could be achieved safely. I'm wondering does the five percent cap make a reopening financially unviable for LOI clubs. Take Richmond as an example I'm not fully sure of our official capacity but say four thousand , is it worth the red tape and safety measure's for two hundred punters.
Rovers won't open for 5%, and probably not even for 10%.

[ashbournebohs]

Rovers won't open for 5%, and probably not even for 10%.
Will they open for 4% 😂

[Mr A]

Will they open for 4% ��

This in unnecessary, petty and badminded.






















Well done sir, well done indeed.

[Charlie Darwin]

Will they open for 4% 
Reported for abuse.

[Dalymountrower]

Reported for abuse.

To the Revenue Commissioners?

[Charlie Darwin]

To the Revenue Commissioners?
Well I was going to say the GAA but maybe.

[ger121]

Will they open for 4% 😂

Oh you did not!

[placid casual]

So the latest restrictions mean I can sit inside in a boozer with no real restrictions likely, but can't sit outdoors in the fresh air watching football. Brilliant joined up thinking there.

[SeanDrog]

So the latest restrictions mean I can sit inside in a boozer with no real restrictions likely, but can't sit outdoors in the fresh air watching football. Brilliant joined up thinking there.

I’d expect they’ll row back on this as it just does not make sense.

[Dalymountrower]

So the latest restrictions mean I can sit inside in a boozer with no real restrictions likely, but can't sit outdoors in the fresh air watching football. Brilliant joined up thinking there.

Looking forward to watching games in Dalymount in one of the three bars over a few pints.Pity I wont be permitted to go out in the fresh air to actually watch the match.

[John83]

So the latest restrictions mean I can sit inside in a boozer with no real restrictions likely, but can't sit outdoors in the fresh air watching football. Brilliant joined up thinking there.
Oh, but you're forgetting the time limit on the pub visit. Just over 90 minutes, isn't it? :)

It's easy to be impatient, but the more stuff they reopen, the more likely that we'll have to row back on some of it. We've had over a year of this ****. Let's not get impatient just because the end is in sight. Another month or two should, short of a surge in cases, see a massive move back towards normality.

[Yossarian]

Oh, but you're forgetting the time limit on the pub visit. Just over 90 minutes, isn't it? :)

It's easy to be impatient, but the more stuff they reopen, the more likely that we'll have to row back on some of it. We've had over a year of this ****. Let's not get impatient just because the end is in sight. Another month or two should, short of a surge in cases, see a massive move back towards normality.

I understand the need for caution but it makes no sense that in July I can go to the cinema that has absolutely no ventilation and then head inside to a pub with the same issue but I can’t sit in a stand/terrace in the open air in front of a big field.