Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[pineapple stu]

A 20% stadium of vaccinated Irish people would be a good news story, good PR and probably good for the mental psyche of the country. The place needs a lift and this could be the catalyst for some positivity.
You can't do things because it would be a good news story or because we all need a lift. That's why we tried to open the place up for Christmas, and look what happened.

In addition, this Indian strain - which I think has been detected here - is a serious concern. It seems to be targeting younger people more than other strains, and it's not known if the vaccine is effective against it. India is almost out of medical oxygen and is recording a record number of cases, worse even than the US peak

It doesn't seem wise to go back to 10k events with so large an unknown out there. We all want normality to return, but wishing it so won't make it happen.

[Straightstory]

You might recall last Jun/Jul was just after the period of tightest lockdown, and one which people largely obeyed because of the novelty of it if nothing else. Of course it was going to have a lower infection rate than April (lockdown only starting) and Nov/Dec (restrictions relaxed ahead of Christmas, with the consequence that ICU was full by January). That doesn't at all back up your point that covid is less dangerous in summer.

I didn't say it was less dangerous. But there was clearly less of a risk of infection. To get back to the point, do you think any people should be allowed into any games at any stadiums during the EUROs?

[pineapple stu]

If you say there's less of a risk of infection (which there wasn't), then you are clearly arguing it's less dangerous. I mean, you've effectively given one definition of "less dangerous"

The question of other stadia in the Euros isn't "the point" as you suggest. It's your own Cathy Newman "What you're saying is..." tangent where you're putting words in other posters' mouths. It's not a great method of debate tbh.

My view, FWIW, is that each country is different and will have its own position. England is doing well with its vaccine rollout and could host crowds. Azerbaijan - I've no idea obviously. It's a decision for the authorities in each country.

I do think though that there is a reasonably strong argument to be made for switching the finals to a single country so you only have one set of covid regulations to deal with, not a dozen

[redobit]

You can't do things because it would be a good news story or because we all need a lift. That's why we tried to open the place up for Christmas, and look what happened.

In addition, this Indian strain - which I think has been detected here - is a serious concern. It seems to be targeting younger people more than other strains, and it's not known if the vaccine is effective against it. India is almost out of medical oxygen and is recording a record number of cases, worse even than the US peak

It doesn't seem wise to go back to 10k events with so large an unknown out there. We all want normality to return, but wishing it so won't make it happen.

That's not what Im saying in fairness. Im suggesting that we have 1.2 milion people vaccinated in this country and things need to be relaxed for these people sooner rather than later. 10,000 of the 1.2 million who have received a shot would seem a reasonable approach if it can work.

[redobit]

I didn't say it was less dangerous. But there was clearly less of a risk of infection. To get back to the point, do you think any people should be allowed into any games at any stadiums during the EUROs?

We can only look after ourselves on this one. Every country will be making the best decision based on a host of different things. Crowds at all Euro games isint a one stop answer.

[pineapple stu]

Well it is what you said, though I'll acknowledge that it's probably not the reasonimg behind your suggestion, which is fair enough.

Yes, we have to open up at some stage, but with the Indian variant in particular, it seems needlessly risky to start with 10-12k crowd events.

Also, how do you monitor who's been vaccinated? Do you check everyone on entry? What are stewards checking? Can documents be faked?

And don't forget too that vaccinated people can still spread covid. Arguably a 20% vaccination rate is a dangerous time to reopen because a significant number of people will think and act as if they're immune, whereas they can add still infect others

[pineapple stu]

And our group is gone to St Petersburg - https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0423/1211580-dublin-euro-2020-group-games-moved-to-saint-petersburg/

I think on balance it's the right decision

[NeverFeltBetter]

Another bit of Delaney's legacy up in smoke. Only wonder is it took this long to make the call.

[Straightstory]

If you say there's less of a risk of infection (which there wasn't), then you are clearly arguing it's less dangerous. I mean, you've effectively given one definition of "less dangerous"

The question of other stadia in the Euros isn't "the point" as you suggest. It's your own Cathy Newman "What you're saying is..." tangent where you're putting words in other posters' mouths. It's not a great method of debate tbh.

My view, FWIW, is that each country is different and will have its own position. England is doing well with its vaccine rollout and could host crowds. Azerbaijan - I've no idea obviously. It's a decision for the authorities in each country.

I do think though that there is a reasonably strong argument to be made for switching the finals to a single country so you only have one set of covid regulations to deal with, not a dozen

'Putting words in other people's mouths'? What? I haven't done this AT ALL. I was merely asking what people thought about crowds in other stadia.
But I agree with you about holding the tournament in one country. That would have been by far the most sensible thing to do.

[redobit]

And our group is gone to St Petersburg - https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0423/1211580-dublin-euro-2020-group-games-moved-to-saint-petersburg/

I think on balance it's the right decision

Sure isint Delaney in London. He'll be happy out he can go to the games now.

[pineapple stu]

'Putting words in other people's mouths'? What? I haven't done this AT ALL. .
It is exactly what your post 1345 was doing.

[Nesta99]

Im suggesting that we have 1.2 milion people vaccinated in this country and things need to be relaxed for these people sooner rather than later. 10,000 of the 1.2 million who have received a shot would seem a reasonable approach if it can work.

The 'if' answers the question imo, if there is an if then we are not ready even for reduced capacity games. As for whether any fans should be at Euro20 games elsewhere, I personally think no. I think UEFA are thinking more about the success of the tournament than the success of a pan-European suppression of the virus but each to their own. Im glad that we have decided not to host games. We will look back in due course and know whether the gamble was worth it.

[Straightstory]

Some thoughtful answers there. I was interested to know how people felt about the issue. - Thanks.

[D24Saint]

https://www.the42.ie/irish-sports-fans-return-to-grounds-summer-2021-5420951-Apr2021/

[EalingGreen]

https://www.the42.ie/irish-sports-fans-return-to-grounds-summer-2021-5420951-Apr2021/
One bit I didn't understand:

Chambers also indicated that it is unlikely that proof of vaccination will be required of fans hoping to attend these events.
“We wouldn’t like to exclude children from attending a game,” he explained.

Surely the two needn't be mutually exclusive?

That is, allow vaccinated adults to bring as many children as they like. Or even permit unaccompanied children to attend?

[pineapple stu]

I suppose the point is if you get to a stage where all adults are vaccinated, then you may as well start to open up even though technically under 18s - a large part of the population - are unvaccinated but are also far less affected by covid if they do get it. So if they're not vaccinated, but likely to be unaffected, and there's no unvaccinated people to transmit covid to, then the proposal makes sense I think.

[EalingGreen]

I suppose the point is if you get to a stage where all adults are vaccinated, then you may as well start to open up even though technically under 18s - a large part of the population - are unvaccinated but are also far less affected by covid if they do get it. So if they're not vaccinated, but likely to be unaffected, and there's no unvaccinated people to transmit covid to, then the proposal makes sense I think.
All adults being offered the vaccine is not the same thing as all adults actually being vaccinated, which you'll never achieve.

So why wait until you reach the all adults being offered stage before letting in children?

After all, if you've (unvaccinated) kids going to school and engaging in other activities, including playing the game themselves etc, then why stop them standing on an open terrace on a summer evening in their local LOI club?

Then take this a step further by allowing vaccinated adults to take children, until such time as the vaccine has been offered to all adults, at which point you allow everyone back (assuming the virus is under control and herd immunity has been achieved).

Such a step-by-step approach has the added advantage of allowing the authorities to monitor the situation, and ease or toughen the restrictions as the data allows.

[pineapple stu]

Children aren't being stopped from attending games.

The problem with requiring a vaccination cert or similar is (I imagine) practicality. Queues at the turnstiles as vaccine certs are checked. Extra training for stewards to recognise vaccine certs (and ensure they belong to the person presenting them) and fakes. Where does the liability lie if someone gets into a ground while unvaccinates and catches covid?

This thing is nasty, and for the sake of an extra couple of months' delay, is it worth all that trouble? OK, you'll probably not get to all adults vaccinated, but if you get to 98%, you've herd immunity and should be fine.

[joey B]

Hopefully test events are in the works as is happening in the Netherlands and Spain and we can get a percentage of fans back in grounds before long....

[Nesta99]

All adults being offered the vaccine is not the same thing as all adults actually being vaccinated, which you'll never achieve.

True but there are very different implications for people choosing not to being vaccinated and and not being offered a vaccine in terms of potential fallout.


So why wait until you reach the all adults being offered stage before letting in children?

Children are carriers, will spread to each other albeit not infected or practically symptomless so ye dont want them interacting and then going back out to an unvaccinated community.


After all, if you've (unvaccinated) kids going to school and engaging in other activities, including playing the game themselves etc, then why stop them standing on an open terrace on a summer evening in their local LOI club?

The main difference is in the ability to trace an outbreak and intervene. Kids in schools are in pods so one tests positive their contacts are limited and their families et al tested and head off an outbreak. Not so easy to do if you have a potential couple of thousand people exposed to the risk of infection and heading off back throughout all of a community.


Such a step-by-step approach has the added advantage of allowing the authorities to monitor the situation, and ease or toughen the restrictions as the data allows.

A step by step approach will likely happen but when a greater proportion of the population is vaccinated, at least those over 50 and any at risk groups eg those with controlled asthma (estimated as 1 in 3 people in this country) a significant at risk group. So as yet too early to start introducing a process of the return of crowds. Not sure if this fully addresses the points made but mainly along with making sure a health system is not overwhelmed by an outbreak, there is also need to keep the ability to trace outbreaks and contacts manageable - kids (probably unfairly tbh) are seen as riskier vectors among a large crowd.

[D24Saint]

Irish sport unlocks: Fans back in July, dilemma for underage soccer and 11 senior Championship titles up for grabs - Independent.ie (https://www.independent.ie/sport/irish-sport-unlocks-fans-back-in-july-dilemma-for-underage-soccer-and-11-senior-championship-titles-up-for-grabs-40369941.html)

[Martinho II]

Looking very promising with fans coming back to matches after July 5th. That article doesnt mention how much capacity will be allowed though like would it be like wot they did in the UK or not?. I didnt subsribe to full article.

[John83]

The article isn't behind a paywall, Martinho. That's all the detail they have:
"July 5: Possible pilot scheme for return of fans"

[Calcio Jack]

Large group of Harp’s fans congregated outside again last night watching the match - wtf is wrong with them and more importantly why don’t the Gardai intervene and make them move on-.
Donegal has by far highest number of cases per head and it’s almost like the people of Donegal are trying to ensure we remain in a permanent state of lockdown - are they just stupid ? Have they no social conscience ? etc.
Time to bring in severe sanctions on all ignoramuses nationwide who are wilfully threatening the health and also financial well-being of the nation.... it’s not just Ollie that deserved a red card !!

[Wally]

I think Ireland is currently still in an acceptable position when it comes to Covid and football. In comparison, India is doing very badly.

[Martinho II]

Large group of Harp’s fans congregated outside again last night watching the match - wtf is wrong with them and more importantly why don’t the Gardai intervene and make them move on-.
Donegal has by far highest number of cases per head and it’s almost like the people of Donegal are trying to ensure we remain in a permanent state of lockdown - are they just stupid ? Have they no social conscience ? etc.
Time to bring in severe sanctions on all ignoramuses nationwide who are wilfully threatening the health and also financial well-being of the nation.... it’s not just Ollie that deserved a red card !!

I dont think it helps that parts of Co Donegal are so close to the border. I know Lifford is a stones throw from Strabane. But its no excuse you dont see it in other counties close to the border.

[DCSIL]

Large group of Harp’s fans congregated outside again last night watching the match - wtf is wrong with them and more importantly why don’t the Gardai intervene and make them move on-.
Donegal has by far highest number of cases per head and it’s almost like the people of Donegal are trying to ensure we remain in a permanent state of lockdown - are they just stupid ? Have they no social conscience ? etc.
Time to bring in severe sanctions on all ignoramuses nationwide who are wilfully threatening the health and also financial well-being of the nation.... it’s not just Ollie that deserved a red card !!

I mentioned this on here before and got it in the neck (expected) from Harps fans, not because it’s Harps, you could say the same about the lads at Dundalk with the flares, or the lads on the wall at the Brandy.

Go home and stream it ffs. It’s only a fiver or 4 quid. I want to get over and see games again sooner rather than later.

[Calcio Jack]

I mentioned this on here before and got it in the neck (expected) from Harps fans, not because it’s Harps, you could say the same about the lads at Dundalk with the flares, or the lads on the wall at the Brandy.

Go home and stream it ffs. It’s only a fiver or 4 quid. I want to get over and see games again sooner rather than later.

There was also a small number of Rovers fans who travelled and watched the match last Fri alongside the Harps fans - brain dead behaviour and each of them should be identified if possible and given a very long ban from Tallaght whenever crowds are allowed back.

[nigel-harps1954]

I mentioned this on here before and got it in the neck (expected) from Harps fans, not because it’s Harps, you could say the same about the lads at Dundalk with the flares, or the lads on the wall at the Brandy.

Go home and stream it ffs. It’s only a fiver or 4 quid. I want to get over and see games again sooner rather than later.

Big crowd outside the Brandywell tonight. Hope you weren't part of the 50 or 60 people gathered tightly together with no masks on tonight..

[sbgawa]

Big crowd outside the Brandywell tonight. Hope you weren't part of the 50 or 60 people gathered tightly together with no masks on tonight..


Have to hand it to Foley for giving it large celebrating in front of them when he scored the winner.
I always love a bit of player engagement with opposition fans, even laughed at HOOOOOban rubbing his belly in Tallaght when he scored last year as the fans had been slagging him about his "physique"

[nigel-harps1954]

Have to hand it to Foley for giving it large celebrating in front of them when he scored the winner.
I always love a bit of player engagement with opposition fans, even laughed at HOOOOOban rubbing his belly in Tallaght when he scored last year as the fans had been slagging him about his "physique"

Foley seemed to only rile them up further, as the bottles, lighters, cans and flares ended up thrown at players and Harps officials after the game.

[Nesta99]

Big crowd outside the Brandywell tonight. Hope you weren't part of the 50 or 60 people gathered tightly together with no masks on tonight..

Such whataboutery justifies nothing Nigel! Across the board condemnation of any fans the flout lockdown restrictions is the only response, not pointing the finger. The irony if such reckless behaviour causes an extension to BCD games would undoubtedly be lost on such morons be they from Donegal, Derry, Dundalk or that pathetic anti-lockdown bunch protesting in Cork and their ilk (Who'd have ever thought the not wearing masks would become a bedrock of civil disobedience for the usual loudmouths that protest on everything...)

[nigel-harps1954]

Such whataboutery justifies nothing Nigel! Across the board condemnation of any fans the flout lockdown restrictions is the only response, not pointing the finger. The irony if such reckless behaviour causes an extension to BCD games would undoubtedly be lost on such morons be they from Donegal, Derry, Dundalk or that pathetic anti-lockdown bunch protesting in Cork and their ilk (Who'd have ever thought the not wearing masks would become a bedrock of civil disobedience for the usual loudmouths that protest on everything...)

I'm merely pointing out the irony of repeated posts by same Derry fans who have pointed the finger at Harps since behind closed doors games started.

There were a ridiculous amount of Derry fans crowded into a very tight space last night, some of which cause bother after the game, yet it's tumbleweed. Handful of Harps fans gather behind the fence at Finn Park, either rightly or wrongly, and it's mentioned on social media, brought up by Gardai, and mentioned time and time again on sites like this one by some people.

[John83]

074-9167101

[Nesta99]

I'm merely pointing out the irony of repeated posts by same Derry fans who have pointed the finger at Harps since behind closed doors games started.

There were a ridiculous amount of Derry fans crowded into a very tight space last night, some of which cause bother after the game, yet it's tumbleweed. Handful of Harps fans gather behind the fence at Finn Park, either rightly or wrongly, and it's mentioned on social media, brought up by Gardai, and mentioned time and time again on sites like this one by some people.

Wrongly! At Finn Park and the Brandywell.

[D24Saint]

Micheál Martin says supporters could be back at games in July · The42 (https://www.the42.ie/micheal-martin-supporters-games-july-5428370-May2021/)

[Martinho II]

Micheál Martin says supporters could be back at games in July · The42 (https://www.the42.ie/micheal-martin-supporters-games-july-5428370-May2021/)

From chatting to one of our stewards the other nite in Bishopsgate we reckon it will be max 200 like last season. Wouldnt trust a word out of MMs mouth tbh. It will be probably next season before fans will be allowed in according to wot I was told.

[Bucket]

074-9167101

Better off "talking to Joe"

[Nesta99]

From chatting to one of our stewards the other nite in Bishopsgate we reckon it will be max 200 like last season. Wouldnt trust a word out of MMs mouth tbh. It will be probably next season before fans will be allowed in according to wot I was told.

I could regret being optimistic on this again as of course all of this is in flux. We are moving quite well now with vaccinations, by the end of this month we hope to be moving well in to the 40's age cohort. By the end of June, especially if the J&J vaccine lands, we could be good to go with reduced crowds initially. FAI plans submitted are doable, if a decision hadnt been demanded on the EURO20 games we probably could have had a restricted attendance in June/July (no loss anyway!!). There are a couple of angles in the mix - blotting copybooks with groups gathering outside grounds during BCD games, or looking to control things by allowing some attend games. It will mean a change in old habits eg people crowding in on top of each other in The Shed in Oriel or Turners Cross. If distancing doesnt happen in these areas they will be closed as a first resort and then back to BCD if there is ongoing non compliance. It will be up to individual clubs how they allocate tickets but there wont be ticket sales on the day and people will have to permit screening (temps taken, signing in with contact details etc). Different levels will happen for different regions/clubs so if clubs can agree to that its progress - currently Donegal/Derry would be BCD but not Longford for example. There is an argument for treating games like cup fixtures where gate receipts get split. Different grounds will have different plans obviously, its also in the pipes that 2 or 3 games could be held at the one spot. Monitoring trends from other sports and countries will drive the nitty gritty of things so its a wait and see. The big thing is that there is no p1ssing match between clubs and especially different sports as there are a few noses out of joint currently and want to assert themselves. Crowds gathering unofficially is being measured as a guide to the likelihood of compliance going forward!!!!

[Buller]

I can't see how we wouldn't have partial attendences by end of the summer to be honest. Full attendence should be on the cards from September onwards. Worth noting that vaccine supply has doubled the last few weeks and will only increase further with J&J as Nesta points out. Vaccinations for 25-35 are due to start in July and finish in September.

[Calcio Jack]

I could regret being optimistic on this again as of course all of this is in flux. We are moving quite well now with vaccinations, by the end of this month we hope to be moving well in to the 40's age cohort. By the end of June, especially if the J&J vaccine lands, we could be good to go with reduced crowds initially. FAI plans submitted are doable, if a decision hadnt been demanded on the EURO20 games we probably could have had a restricted attendance in June/July (no loss anyway!!). There are a couple of angles in the mix - blotting copybooks with groups gathering outside grounds during BCD games, or looking to control things by allowing some attend games. It will mean a change in old habits eg people crowding in on top of each other in The Shed in Oriel or Turners Cross. If distancing doesnt happen in these areas they will be closed as a first resort and then back to BCD if there is ongoing non compliance. It will be up to individual clubs how they allocate tickets but there wont be ticket sales on the day and people will have to permit screening (temps taken, signing in with contact details etc). Different levels will happen for different regions/clubs so if clubs can agree to that its progress - currently Donegal/Derry would be BCD but not Longford for example. There is an argument for treating games like cup fixtures where gate receipts get split. Different grounds will have different plans obviously, its also in the pipes that 2 or 3 games could be held at the one spot. Monitoring trends from other sports and countries will drive the nitty gritty of things so its a wait and see. The big thing is that there is no p1ssing match between clubs and especially different sports as there are a few noses out of joint currently and want to assert themselves. Crowds gathering unofficially is being measured as a guide to the likelihood of compliance going forward!!!!

In Rovers case splitting receipts wouldn’t work as we have approx 1500 paid for season ticket holders - Tallaght will initially have a max of 500 spectators with places allocated by lottery so don’t think we’ll want to share any of receipts already collected

[Nesta99]

I agree tbh and not sure how it is workable unless the FAI state that league games are to be treated like cup games which would be a 'mare for clubs. Its being mooted as a softener in the event of regional differences for example. If it becomes an all or nothing situation clubs will have to play ball somehow unless another wedge of money appears and thats likely to to be weighted toward those that are most restricted.

*should have said here that a number of games in the national stadium is to both maximise crowds, accommodate members/season ticket holders. and to help clubs that otherwise be under BCD protocol. Doable when restrictions are lifted on travel within ones own county. I happen to like the idea of the AVIVA holding 3 league games on a Saturday with say season ticketholders allowed,

[sbgawa]

honestly think we have lost the plot as a country, there is zero leadership from Govt.
We should be allowing people who have been vaccinated to go to matches but instead our woke Government are worrying about discriminating against people that refuse a vaccine.
There is a thing called acceptable risk in life and with the country being run by Herr Houlihan and the politicians afraid to upset social media by taking any stance we will drag out reopening for months. We now have 34 people in ICU across 30 hospitals

Yes im fed up

[pineapple stu]

I think that's very easy to say from behind a keyboard though.

Being vaccinated doesn't mean you can't catch and spread the virus first off.

Secondly, how do you prove you're vaccinated? How do stewards spot fake certificates (or whatever)? Look at the flight from India to Hong Kong last month where everyone had negative tests getting onboard, but in Hong Kong tests showed 52 had covid.

Is it really that much of a deal to wait until, say, 70-80% of the population are vaccinated, and let the country re-open in stages as we get to that point?

We saw around Christmas how quickly this thing can take off - and with cases of the Indian variant now being reported here as well, I think caution is still very much advised.

[sbgawa]

The EU are bringing in vacine passports which will save us from our pathetic politicians who will listen to their masters as they are more afraid of them then the medics.

Catch and spread it to who? average age for deaths is mid 80's and we are now vaccinating 60 year olds.
Im not saying we open up everything right now but there is a reason why cases are still at 400-500 for ages but hospital admissions are going down down down, the people likely to die or get really sick are vacinated by now. Yes that doesnt mean everyone is 100% safe but life isnt 100% safe.

The problem is when arguing this POV you align yourself with some right nutjobs.
Wanting a reasonable balance of risks shouldnt be controversial
T

[Nesta99]

Im still getting over the scam in Indonesia(?) where used nasal swabs were being washed and reused - spew worthy stuff!!!​

[pineapple stu]

Catch and spread it to who? average age for deaths is mid 80's and we are now vaccinating 60 year olds.
The outcomes of covid aren't die or be grand. It can cause potentially serious long-term lung damage to anyone, particularly asthmatics or obese people (which is quite a lot of the population). I know of people who've gotten it and a month or two later could barely walk around the block before being exhausted. The Indian variant apparently affects younger people more than previous variants, and we don't know if the vaccine is effective against it. That would only be exacerbated if ICU filled up as quickly as it did the last time.

I don't think you've demonstrated that (a) documentation can't be forged (which is exactly what is happening) and (b)that what you're proposing is a reasonably balance of risks. Talk of "pathetic politicians who will listen to their masters" and the likes sounds great, but doesn't actually mean anything.

[Eminence Grise]

Herr Houlihan


The problem is when arguing this POV you align yourself with some right nutjobs.

You haven't blown your cover yet - they all think you're on their side.

[sbgawa]

It's not nuts to ask for a bit of balance and some leadership from our politicians who were actually elected and not a CMO with a tunnel vision.

[pineapple stu]

In the case of a pandemic, I'm 100% in favour of listening to a senior medical guy who attained his position on the grounds of competence rather than politicians who said they'd fill in a few potholes.