Covid 19 - LOI Ramifications

[Martinho II]

Rovers friendly with PSG off due to uncertainty over travel restrictions.

Always on the cards. btw if clubs indiv grounds cant host European matches i assume Tallaght stadium will be ok?

[Ezeikial]

Always on the cards. btw if clubs indiv grounds cant host European matches i assume Tallaght stadium will be ok?

It would be no big deal to play in Tallaght, except that it's another cost that doesn't even stay within football

[pineapple stu]

Suggestions today that all sports events are to be behind closed doors (https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0818/1159815-covid-19-blog/) - so that would presumably mean you don't even get the 100 or so spectators to bring you up to the 200 limit. And certainly no sign of it moving up to 500. Things going backwards unfortunately.


All sporting events will take place behind closed doors, under measures being discussed by cabinet this afternoon.

RTÉ News understands that a decision has been made not to allow spectators at sporting fixtures.

[D24Saint]

Suggestions today that all sports events are to be behind closed doors (https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0818/1159815-covid-19-blog/) - so that would presumably mean you don't even get the 100 or so spectators to bring you up to the 200 limit. And certainly no sign of it moving up to 500. Things going backwards unfortunately.

Id say that is the end of getting to see any games in person this year. Its unfortunate to see things going backward but the quicker we can beat the virus the quicker we can return to some version of normal living.

[John83]

Id say that is the end of getting to see any games in person this year. Its unfortunate to see things going backward but the quicker we can beat the virus the quicker we can return to some version of normal living.
Could well be, especially if reopening the schools causes a bunch of spikes, and I can't see how it won't.

[pineapple stu]

A bit further afield, but a second Kosovan side in as many weeks have had to scratch in Europe because of covid tests. Prishtina seem to have had as many as 8 players test positive - though the game was only postponed an hour before kick-off, by which time all those infected had travelled to Gibraltar.

[D24Saint]

A bit further afield, but a second Kosovan side in as many weeks have had to scratch in Europe because of covid tests. Prishtina seem to have had as many as 8 players test positive - though the game was only postponed an hour before kick-off, by which time all those infected had travelled to Gibraltar.

Unfortunately when teams aren't in bubble it seems very hard to stop cases. In saying that it should never have come to the point in did before that match.

[pineapple stu]

Actually, it seems outdoor training is now down to 15 people (including coaching I guess), which will make things interesting

[D24Saint]

Actually, it seems outdoor training is now down to 15 people (including coaching I guess), which will make things interesting

Um that’s not a good addition to clubs problems. It’s hard to see the league concluding as scheduled with how things are progressing.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, we're pretty much at the bare essentials now. All games behind closed doors too. So any further restrictions and you imagine the league is on hiatus again.

186 cases today, which is a lot

[colonelwest]

Actually, it seems outdoor training is now down to 15 people (including coaching I guess), which will make things interesting

Back to pods then, clubs with their own training facilities & bigger coaching staff will be able to manage but I'd imagine the smaller part time clubs will have to stagger training sessions now for the foreseeable future?


On the new restrictions being brought back in I don't disagree entirely on attendances coming back in to prevent spread of the virus but it's the usual load of absolute political fudge on implementation cross sector. Without going into the specific chat around the complete lack of test and trace/ inspections at processing plants, hot bedding & DP; how a €9 substantial meal or a good auld pray at mass magically makes everything ok to attend; then on the flipside sport at all levels from a sunday league game in the Phoenix park to the elite level and restrictions on the elderly reintroduced, they've made a haimes of it again based purely on political lobbying and self interest, I think people will start getting vocal about it this time compared to in the spring.

I was in town last week as had to pick up a few bits and Penneys & Arnotts were absolute full to the Michael Rafter's with very little sign of social distancing being enforced and mask wearing was about half of everyone in the shops I was in, went for the magic €9 meal a small few times last month and in some places there 100% wasn't proper social distancing enforced with table spacing either.

From our perspective with the league in theory it would be a hell of a lot safer with the FAI protocols followed with a staggered one way in and a seperate way out of the ground, proper social distancing, face coverings, contact tracing, temp checks etc in place than going shopping or for a magic €9 meal or hitting the shops or shopping centres.

At least we have watchloi now which has been great on the whole, I wonder though will there be a club with a bar licence who'll try and do an end run and offer a burger for a tenner and let a number of ST holders in.

[Nesta99]

Its quite a surprise that the publican lobby hasnt had the impact it would have expected across the board. Gradual drift away from pubs being the be all and end all and toward the off-licence? We simply dont have the capacity that is required to enforce restrictions, implement full track and trace etc. and it is an error not to be continually ramping up capacity on the hail mary of a pre Christmas vaccine. I agree that it is mess as we are doing neither one thing or another - drive toward a covid 19 free island bubble to the full and kick things off from there in full, or spend an indefinite amount of time with a semi open society/economy with backs to the wall fire fighting. It was a missed opportunity circa May in our haste to reopen (particularly tourism) and will have longer term consequences than additional lockdown at the time. It does not make sense to have large numbers of people in indoor shopping malls yet not allow similar numbers of people in a properly managed outdoor sporting event for example. How does having food in a pub for up to 90mins differ from a no food outlet that is better compliant? But then why test at high risk meat production facilities and not every low paid high staffing denesity business on the island - I can think of a lot more areas than meat industry that should be closely monitored (and reformed). There's no quick fix on housing stock but the choke point for these clusters is in the living rather than work conditions - are Local Authorities out en masse checking violations in the rental sector? Covid specifics may not be on the books but I bet many properties that carry risk will fail on multiple existing requirements.We can use what we have too rather than always the attention seeking new flashy directives that have gaping holes.

We do have a lot to answer for as a people also imo. The conduct of some has been appaling, and the 'meh' attitude of many worrying. It's an all in or dont bother kind of thing. If we cant be trusted to police ourselves then government will eventually end up having no choice but to totally nanny us. Boycott businesses that dont comply, speak up if someone isnt keeping their distance, complain and report, shake the head at people not wearing masks in shops. The government need to be honest and not take us for fools but we are being shown up as lax, dont give a sh!te, anti-authority people almost to a stereotype. Honestly how many of us adhere to not going to the local Tesco during times allotted to high risk groups, or even know what those times are....

There is damn all stopping a sufficiently sized club bar(with a general licence) sell food, and a few beers hence, at the same time as there happens to be a game on either on TV or with a view of the pitch which really shows the farcical elements in a lot of this - some GAA bars would hold hundreds . What is a substantial meal? I want to know where ye can get one for a mere €9

[DCSIL]

Does anyone think we’ll see fans in grounds for the rest of the year?

[Nesta99]

No highly unlikely at this stage. We are weeks away from winter flu season and on top we are lagging on controlling covid-19 now compared to up to May early June. Things could be worse than at the point that sports were suspended by mid October, even a bit earlier. A piece in the Irish Times yesterday I think indicates where things are headed - Sweden had 60% more deaths than Ireland up to Summer months and now we have a higher rate of infection so a worrying trend. Why? Govt change and people bedding in with new portfolios though I dont buy that as civil servants provide continuity. Change in CMO but the message hasnt changed. Lockdown fatigue causing indifference is probably the closest overall reason but this should have been anticipated so track and trace and test turnaround times should still be at max as if we were still in a contain phase.Some sectors like sport are in contain mode, while others are not so as mentioned we have neither one thing or another. Poor fare after now after doing all the hard work!

[redobit]

Does anyone think we’ll see fans in grounds for the rest of the year?

This season!!! Might not even see substantial number next season the way things are going.

[John83]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/crowds-of-up-to-200-allowed-to-attend-sporting-fixtures-in-stadia-with-5000-capacity-39532813.html

Crowds of 200 in stadia of 5000+ capacity.

[Seagull]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/crowds-of-up-to-200-allowed-to-attend-sporting-fixtures-in-stadia-with-5000-capacity-39532813.html

Crowds of 200 in stadia of 5000+ capacity.

Is that as of now?

[D24Saint]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/crowds-of-up-to-200-allowed-to-attend-sporting-fixtures-in-stadia-with-5000-capacity-39532813.html

Crowds of 200 in stadia of 5000+ capacity.


The clubs could try this trick.

https://youtu.be/x-Et5VIu2FI

[NeverFeltBetter]

I read the roadmap applies from midnight.

[Nesta99]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/crowds-of-up-to-200-allowed-to-attend-sporting-fixtures-in-stadia-with-5000-capacity-39532813.html

Crowds of 200 in stadia of 5000+ capacity.


Stated capacity or 'safe' holding capacity....

Im not being smart, I think restricting Tallaght to the same numbers as say Croke Park doesnt make a whole lot of sense if thats whats happening. An open uncovered terrace is safer than an enclosed seated stand assuming distancing is enforced.

[John83]

Yeah, it's a bit of a crude measure, but then there are probably higher priorities for the government than fine-tuning how many punters can watch Harps perform improvisational knee surgery.

The other headline figure is 200 max for smaller stadia.

[pineapple stu]

The other headline figure is 200 max for smaller stadia.
100 in Dublin though, irrespective of venue size (https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/cf1f3-special-measures-in-place-for-dublin/).

I presume that counts players, etc.

[D24Saint]

100 in Dublin though, irrespective of venue size (https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/cf1f3-special-measures-in-place-for-dublin/).

I presume that counts players, etc.

I don’t think any of the other figures mentioned today included players just spectators only afaik.

[samhaydenjr]

Stated capacity or 'safe' holding capacity....

Im not being smart, I think restricting Tallaght to the same numbers as say Croke Park doesnt make a whole lot of sense if thats whats happening. An open uncovered terrace is safer than an enclosed seated stand assuming distancing is enforced.

There will be specific guidance for larger venues in Levels 1 and 2 - at level 3 everything is behind closed doors - https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/18e18-level-2/#sports

[ger121]

100 in Dublin though, irrespective of venue size (https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/cf1f3-special-measures-in-place-for-dublin/).

I presume that counts players, etc.

That’s your home support sorted so!

[sbgawa]

No it's 100 actual spectators on top of the players stewards officials etc

[pineapple stu]

Macclesfield Town were wound up today, four days ahead of the new Conference season. The first professional club to go to the wall in covid times I think. Southend United had a winding-up order deferred too.

No real surprise to be honest - Macclesfield in particular were in bad shape anyway. But the LoI with fans barely makes sense, so without fans, it's surely only a matter of time before the same thing happens here? No real point singling out clubs either; like covid itself, it could hit anyone really.

[El-Pietro]

Macclesfield were in a lot of trouble for several years. This is from last December.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/dec/04/sol-campbell-macclesfield-backs-petition-wind-up-club-owed-182000

This isn't surprising news but I'm sure Covid accelerated the difficulties they were already in. Theres no way football outside the elite can survive without fans in any meaningful way. It will be European Super League and 5 a side and nothing in between unless fans can return.

[oriel]

What happens to LOI though if Dublin moves to level 3, and this has not been ruled out and as early as this w/e - if figures continue to increase?

From rte.ie

Level 3 restrictions will limit visitors to your home to one other household only (this has been introduced in Dublin). No social or family gatherings should take place in other settings.

Weddings will be limited to 25 while outdoor gatherings will be capped at 15. Sports training can continue but no matches will be allowed. All museums and galleries will be closed

[pineapple stu]

Level 3 has an exemption - "Professional/elite/inter-county/club championship/horse-racing can take place behind closed doors". Level 4 has the same exemption. It's only at Level 5 would LoI matches stop, by my reading.

[pineapple stu]

I'm sure Covid accelerated the difficulties they were already in.
It would presumably also make it much harder to make an argument that they could continue as a going concern if they got the winding up order lifted too.

[DCWA]

Macclesfield Town were wound up today, four days ahead of the new Conference season. The first professional club to go to the wall in covid times I think. Southend United had a winding-up order deferred too.

No real surprise to be honest - Macclesfield in particular were in bad shape anyway. But the LoI with fans barely makes sense, so without fans, it's surely only a matter of time before the same thing happens here? No real point singling out clubs either; like covid itself, it could hit anyone really.

You make a good point there as regards fans, a few of us were chatting about this and the consensus was there is no real interest in having a full season next year of watching Derry on a streaming service.

It would really make little difference to us were the club to sit out a year and reenter the league the following season.

It obviously isn’t as simple as that but still the prevailing opinion was that without fans it is completely pointless.

Obviously us being absolutely crap lends itself to this way of thinking and a Rovers fan for example may not agree so much.

[Mr A]

Next season is where the crunch comes. Clubs may hobble through this year but how do you plan for a year with no clarity on whether there will be fans or proper income of any description. The FAI can't keep helping forever, and can we keep people engaged with clubs as fans and volunteers fall out of the habit etc? The tendency of LOI clubs to have short term contracts may help here but it's a bleak picture indeed looking at next season to be perfectly honest.

[pineapple stu]

FAI calling for 3.5m in funding for the LoI if no fans allowed next year (https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0918/1166044-fai-fears-for-loi-future-if-fans-dont-return-in-2021/).

You would imagine that they won't get the half of that if everyone comes looking for money next year; the country's already on target to borrow close on half the bailout funds this year, and the longer this goes on, the more it's going to have to prioritise where funds go I think.

[Nesta99]

As Mr A mentioned and it makes sense that next year is where the real crunch would hit. Be interesting to see November's Budget and will give some indication on if/where govt. spending will be adjusted. Maybe though, and while there isnt such thing as cheap credit of this magnitude, the EU mechanisms put in place post bailout might soften the impact in comparison. I dont think major budget cuts will happen, cutting spending when the economy has contracted overnight would be madness. Sundry covid like spending will probably be paired back to 2019 levels and what has been spent in 2020 its stick it on the tab so to speak. The fly in the ointment will be how much covid lingers and availability of vaccines (which are already being dealt with at an EU level). Flipping Brexit is sounding more economic alarms than covid now...
Id be surprised if the FAI are throwing out figures of what they need in 2021 as opposed to what they want and then hope to actually get. I dont think clubs will be getting major capital grants anytime soon but assisting with keeping NGOs especially in sports going, may actually loosen those purse strings. The cost of keeping the likes of FAI ticking over for a pretty meagre €3.5mil, is a whole lot cheaper than dealing with fallout eg disrupted community cohesion, mantal and physical health, social exclusion - the list is endless. But then when have govt budgets been set on established convention and common sense.

[pineapple stu]

FAI looking for €19.2m in total - €3.5m is just for the LoI.

[Nesta99]

Ha! Serves me right for not clicking in to the actual link for the full story. Ok €20mil changes the level a tad but is still too high imo to be much more than sounding out how far they can push the begging bowl. At that sort of money then it has to be in context of other sporting organisations too - Sports that have major assets, cash reserves, and the ability to generate income that dwarf the FAI. But again imagine giving 20mil to football and not tripling that for GAA?! So if LoI needs €3.5mil (roughly a fifth?) of the total, what is the FAI still spending money on? Cant be massive staffing costs in development roles or basic admin. Servicing debt restructuring might be a good chunk. International sides yeah but as old fashioned as it seems, certainly at senior level renumeration should be the privilage of representing your country and not an additional earner to the thousands a week earned at clubs. I dunno, there's obviously a way to go before anything the FAI wants is not accepted without due scrutiny. Can we knock a few mil off by witholding pensions of former crooked staff??

[samhaydenjr]

OK, so two pieces of news from the past week or so have given us an indication of what will happen in the next year or so. Firstly, the government setting of levels of openness during the pandemic and secondly, the statement by the head of the CDC that a vaccine won't be widely available until the second or third quarter of 2021 (although it will be available for high-priority groups earlier in the year). Given this, what should the plan for the LOI be in 2021?

1. Have a full season, limping by with crowds of 200/500 and revenue from the streaming service for the first few months, with the hope of getting bumper crowds in the second half (could they ask for an increase in the limits to allow for vaccinated citizens earlier in the year?)
2. Start the season late, and possibly shorten it so that early-season losses are limited
3. Switch back to Winter football, starting up in August/September/October
4. Shut the clubs down for the year and start up again in 2022

[D24Saint]

4. Shut the clubs down for the year and start up again in 2022

Id say it would be preferred by some but UEFA wouldn’t go for it , if your qualified for a UEFA competition and don’t take part you’ll be burnt at the stake.

[joey B]

OK, so two pieces of news from the past week or so have given us an indication of what will happen in the next year or so. Firstly, the government setting of levels of openness during the pandemic and secondly, the statement by the head of the CDC that a vaccine won't be widely available until the second or third quarter of 2021 (although it will be available for high-priority groups earlier in the year). Given this, what should the plan for the LOI be in 2021?

1. Have a full season, limping by with crowds of 200/500 and revenue from the streaming service for the first few months, with the hope of getting bumper crowds in the second half (could they ask for an increase in the limits to allow for vaccinated citizens earlier in the year?)
2. Start the season late, and possibly shorten it so that early-season losses are limited
3. Switch back to Winter football, starting up in August/September/October
4. Shut the clubs down for the year and start up again in 2022


Nobody knows the future and how things will pan out but I'd have little interest in what we currently have carrying over to next season,the product on the field isn't good enough to watch without crowds and atmosphere.
Imagine fast forwarding to the first game of the season next February and the season kicking off in the ****ing rain,pitch black and empty grounds its a depressing thought,at the minute option 3 would be my pick to see how things are but who knows what the future brings.....

[Nesta99]

OK, so two pieces of news from the past week or so have given us an indication of what will happen in the next year or so. Firstly, the government setting of levels of openness during the pandemic and secondly, the statement by the head of the CDC that a vaccine won't be widely available until the second or third quarter of 2021 (although it will be available for high-priority groups earlier in the year). Given this, what should the plan for the LOI be in 2021?

1. Have a full season, limping by with crowds of 200/500 and revenue from the streaming service for the first few months, with the hope of getting bumper crowds in the second half (could they ask for an increase in the limits to allow for vaccinated citizens earlier in the year?)
2. Start the season late, and possibly shorten it so that early-season losses are limited
3. Switch back to Winter football, starting up in August/September/October
4. Shut the clubs down for the year and start up again in 2022

Cant see how this could be done, nobody is going to be asked to carry a vac sheet without a change in law. Efforts to have parents show kids vaccination status prior to starting school has caused ructions. Option 4 wont be allowed by UEFA unless things are catastrophic Europe wide. The way fixtures were weighted to the front end of the season could changed so part of option 2. A later finish to the season would be ok but id hate a full change back to a winter season. Whichever way its done a decision need to happen early as possible so clubs can mitigate for changes eg with player contracts. While there is no indications of this, it is a fear for Dundalk that significant change and futher disruption gives P6 a easy(er) out!

[nigel-harps1954]

We'll have to carry on, really.

Option 1 isn't too attractive for anyone, but it's the best of a bad lot.

Option 2 leaves us with far too much of a gap of pre-season. Bills still need paid then too. No football for another 6 or 8 months of an off-season could kill more clubs.

Option 3 would never be taken by the clubs. Several wouldn't mind a return to winter football, and regardless, you'd still need some sort of a League Cup competition run between Feb-April or something to keep the clubs ticking over.

Option 4 just isn't an option worth considering at all.

[Martinho II]

Meant to say with the lockdown in Dublin are the loi games there exempt from this ruling?

[John83]

Meant to say with the lockdown in Dublin are the loi games there exempt from this ruling?
The level 3 restrictions just limit the crowds a bit more.

[joey B]

.....

[total hoofball]

OK, so two pieces of news from the past week or so have given us an indication of what will happen in the next year or so. Firstly, the government setting of levels of openness during the pandemic and secondly, the statement by the head of the CDC that a vaccine won't be widely available until the second or third quarter of 2021 (although it will be available for high-priority groups earlier in the year). Given this, what should the plan for the LOI be in 2021?

1. Have a full season, limping by with crowds of 200/500 and revenue from the streaming service for the first few months, with the hope of getting bumper crowds in the second half (could they ask for an increase in the limits to allow for vaccinated citizens earlier in the year?)
2. Start the season late, and possibly shorten it so that early-season losses are limited
3. Switch back to Winter football, starting up in August/September/October
4. Shut the clubs down for the year and start up again in 2022

A full 36 game season isn't going to happen in 2021 as the 13/14 game resumption is costing the FAI (or in reality the tax payer) a minimum of €2.5 million so you have to treble that cost for a normal 36 game season as there is no chance of economically viable attendances at games until the population is achieving herd immunity which may not be until 2022 and sponsorship income/merchandise income is going to dry up too with the economy on life support

The FAI and the clubs haven't shown anything to indicate that they want to shift from Summer football back to Winter and UEFA requirements will ensure that there will be a season in either 2021 or 2021/22

I predict it will be another 18 game season for both divisions/LOI only FAI Cup with the 2021 season kicking off second half of June to give Euro clubs some competitive games before the qualifications and it will be again funded by the taxpayer for a similar amount to 2020 with some degree of salary caps/FAI budgeting in store for the clubs. If the clubs cannot pay their professional players during the offseason then they will have to go on PUP or the dole

[joey B]

Crowds at football in the UK might not return for 6 months going by the British government statements today, if its the same here then we are facing a disaster, minimal crowds if any and revenue from streaming will not cut it, sponsorship is gonna be a harder to come by as-well due to the general state of things in the country, professional football is on thin ice here I'd fear..........

[Yossarian]

Crowds at football in the UK might not return for 6 months going by the British government statements today, if its the same here then we are facing a disaster, minimal crowds if any and revenue from streaming will not cut it, sponsorship is gonna be a harder to come by as-well due to the general state of things in the country, professional football is on thin ice here I'd fear..........

If it was only 6 months then we’d probably be ok as most of that is our off season. I think the real issue is the uncertainty. How can clubs offer deals to players for next season when we have no idea what the situation will be regards income.

[Martinho II]

Seen last weekend that Macclesfield have gone out of business which is sad to see as they got relegated from league 2 last season. Sad to see this!

[pineapple stu]

If it was only 6 months then we’d probably be ok as most of that is our off season. I think the real issue is the uncertainty. How can clubs offer deals to players for next season when we have no idea what the situation will be regards income.
Will players accept them either? A lot of uncertainty ahead.