League of Ireland in Europe 2019

[Real ale Madrid]

The margins can be small for sure - though not in the games against Qarabag and Slovan - but I guess at this stage it's an accumulation of results. The margins seem to be small every year. But ultimately we're about as low as we've ever been in the UEFA standings, and that has to mean something. Yes, other countries are getting extra coefficient points because they have teams starting in earlier rounds, but I think Luxembourg are the only country to have passed us out because of it, and even then their teams have clearly outperformed ours over the last couple of years.

We were 44 / 48 in 1998.

42 / 55 isn't so bad really, we are way ahead from those days.

[pineapple stu]

Fair point. Certainly back then, we had gotten through I think three rounds in 15 years, so yeah, we're not quite that bad! Though no Gibraltar, San Marino, Kosovo, Montenegro back then, all of whom we're ahead of now.

42/55 is still pretty bad though. There's a big gap from 34th to 33rd (Lithuania to Hungary), and you'd like to think we should be capable of being up at the top of the lower list (i.e. 34th). Instead, we're more likely to fall further in the next two years as Dundalk/Cork's runs get wiped off the slate without being replaced.

[paul_oshea]

League Of Ireland players are mentally brittle. From my 22 years of watching LOI in Europe, a significant improvement on fitness and strength/conditioning has taken place, however, the same "Oh God, what do I do" panic station mentality exists in the same way now as it did in 1997. Whether it's being one on one with the keeper, or hitting the crossbar from 2 yards out, missing open goals, blasting shots from 40 yards out that land in Row Z, scoring comical own goals, conceding penalties and goals from inside the box through kamikaze calamity, I could go on for hours. There's a real inferiority complex once an LOI team take to the field against most opposition in Europe. Watching how well SRFC played against Brann was refreshing, but a rarity. Yes, Dundalk had spells to win the home leg vs Qarabg, but missed GOLDEN chances. As they did last week vs Slovan. The Riga matches were an absolute chore to watch. LOI sides MUST score almost every chance they get to be in with a shout, and the conversion rate, if I had to guess, is not 90% but more like 30.Of course this League of ours needs millions pumped into it, but it shouldn't cost millions to create and foster a mental steeliness within our best players through a dedicated coaching regimen that would improve those deficiencies. Some Dundalk fans here are saying they didn't play that badly. It's on the way towards being true, but what is closer to the truth is that their players this year really lacked mental decisiveness in the heat of battle. And it's a blight that affects all teams not just Dundalk, before any fans think it's just them I'm singling out. 22 years of saying "Ah ffs, schoolboy stuff, watching matches through my fingers at the cringe concession of yet another soft goal from 3 yards out that kills yet another tie. Oh look, the striker missed a sitter too down the other end, just to compound the situation". And yes, Qarabag and Norrkoping and the likes have multi million budgets choc full of talented players, but these sides never have to work very hard for their goals. LOI sides don't often lose because the opposition were miles better technically, they lose because they defeat themselves first with basic mistakes.

Could not have written this better. Very well put.


I don'y know why people are so negative on LOI teams progressing in Europe. If anything, Riga's progress shows Dundalk were a lucky draw from doing well, and Rovers were a stupid second yellow from having a real chance of going through. The margins are small.

I actually think had rovers gone through the other route they would have progressed. I think they looked much more assured and much better on the set-piece, capable of scoring goals. I never really got that sense watching Dundalk this year. But that away game more than anyone will stick with them for next year. its a good experience and a lesson learned. Hopefully they can keep the team together for the Euro games next year.

Eamon Sweeney has his say below. I think i did up an average monthly salary in a lot of these countries a few years ago, including georgia and armenia also with a list of the smaller european nations relative to co-efficients. So moving wages aside for a minute its an interesting piece(tbf i think there is a much more realistic view from LOI fans now than he is suggesting certainly than from a few years ago as more players move abroad and most return or they play at a much lower level):

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/eamonn-sweeney-were-behind-liechtenstein-albania-north-macedonia-and-moldova-league-of-ireland-clubs-are-eurotrash-38412406.html

[Ezeikial]

Gavin McLaughlin gives his perspective


https://dundalksport.ie/dfc-dundalk-fc-and-league-of-ireland-clubs-in-general-are-small-fish-in-the-shark-infested-3926bbfce537

[paul_oshea]

I can't read that but i think i might have seen it on one of the social media platforms, is this the article where he suggests supporters should get a grip about perth? If that's the article, interesting that on here some people were suggesting this(perths worth)and internally some Dundalk fans were saying the same.

[dundalkfc10]

I can't read that but i think i might have seen it on one of the social media platforms, is this the article where he suggests supporters should get a grip about perth? If that's the article, interesting that on here some people were suggesting this(perths worth)and internally some Dundalk fans were saying the same.

No the bandwagoners are saying the same. The same Dundalk "fans" who we wont see again until we can win the league or have a FAI Cup Semi or Final

Any Dundalk fan i know, thinks Vinny is doing an excellent job

[dfx-]

Brann's centre half was scared of his life of Finn closing him down, Limassol were relieved to get through in extra time against Rovers and lost their discipline in both games when it was going against them. The other teams at this level, budget or not, get jittery too...

It's not about wage difference, crowd size or budget. The key determining on-pitch factor is fitness at that point of the season and then it's experience. A team that is in and out of Europe finishing fourth in the LOI is not going to get that experience and are going to make mistakes when tired...

[Ezeikial]

I can't read that but i think i might have seen it on one of the social media platforms, is this the article where he suggests supporters should get a grip about perth? If that's the article, interesting that on here some people were suggesting this(perths worth)and internally some Dundalk fans were saying the same.

I am not sure what you are saying here, but as far as I can see there is strong support and approval among Dundalk fans for the job Vinny Perth has done so far this season. OrielWeb is probably a good barometer of the view of the core support and, bar the odd grumble about substitutions, the vibe has been very positive.

[redobit]

So our game that was postponed because of Dundalk in Europe will now be on 2nd September. We have gone from a Bank Holiday Saturday to a Monday which is the first day back at school.

Ironically enough the game was originally changed to give Dundalk more than 3 games between the Europe game and LOI game ... but we will make the journey to play Cork on the Friday. Which is you guessed it, 3 days before the Monday game! You couldnt make it up.

Anyway thats enough out of me on this but a serious look at fixture scheduling and maybe a postponement fee for European team needs to happen. Its every season.

[Mr A]

Fixture scheduling in this league has to be top priority to sort. It is a shambles year after year.

[marinobohs]

Fixture scheduling in this league has to be top priority to sort. It is a shambles year after year.

For years clubs that qualified for Europe complained about getting no help (fixture wise) from the league.Its as if by making a complete balls up of it they are trying to deter any club complaining again ! Why the clubs involved in Europe cant play each other around the time of the early rounds, minimizing cancellations, is beyond me unless its just the league are too lazy to bother. It woudn't solve all problems but would lessen them

[Dalymountrower]

Wafer cup tie with Airdrie going
ahead Saturday 7th Sept at 1pm.Cup quarter finals scheduled that weekend too! Presumably under 19's will play if we overcome Longford in next round.

[Yossarian]

If the league wasn’t squeezed into 8 and a half months then there would be room for the European teams to play each other on a couple of Mondays early in the session and leave the other teams to play each other over the summer. If you go down the route of a fee for a team inconvenienced by a postponement then would that apply if a game is called off because two players are called up to an U19 or u21 squad.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Clubs just shouldn’t have game cancelled for Europe. They’re getting 200k+ a round as it is giving them such a huge advantage over the rest of the league.

[pineapple stu]

Linfield go 2-1 up at home to Qarabag!

Didn't see that coming

[ger121]

Linfield go 2-1 up at home to Qarabag!

Didn't see that coming

Rosenborg aside they have played well in the subsequent 4 matches. Not a bad side when you look at some of their players.

[pineapple stu]

3-1 now! Wow

[ger121]

3-1 now! Wow

Be funny if they got a 4th. Dundalk showed Qarabag too much respect.

[ger121]

Penalty at the death to make it 3-2. Could be a big goal that.

[patrickccfc]

Probably would've been favourites at 3-1. That late goal swings it back in favour of Qarabag.

[swinfordfc]

Linfield win last night shows that Dundalk performances in Europe this year to be poor ... It was like their were scare of the opposition and not go out and play their own game. Is the league of Ireland going backwards?

[Nesta99]

That's a fair point. The squad played like they were under pressure as red hot favourites rather than playing freely as underdogs. Qarabag showed some mental weakness themselves. We showed to much respect to Slovan, didnt take chances, and threw away an opportunity. I wouldnt be too quick on LoI going backwards based on the Linfield game last night. They have been undergoing a good building process with ambition for Europe not previously shown by IL clubs. Great result but will ultimately count for little if they dont make hay in the 2nd leg. Sustaing wins is signs of real progress rather than one outstanding result.

[sbgawa]

A few one off games is not a fair judgement on the LOI.
The margins are too fine, Rovers could have won in extra time against Appolon (who then beat Austria Vienna home and away) and be playing in final qualifying and everyone would be saying it was a good year.
Dundalk could have had a handier draw and progressed.
Cork almost had a phenomenal comeback having imploded in the home leg....i k now that is a lot of if my Auntie had ball she would be my Uncle stuff but some years the ball bounces in your favour and some it doesnt

[Dalymountrower]

Linfield win last night shows that Dundalk performances in Europe this year to be poor ... It was like their were scare of the opposition and not go out and play their own game. Is the league of Ireland going backwards?

Dundalk look to me to have mistimed their "peak" fitness, two/three weeks late. Not much point hitting it, which they are now, when you are out of Europe.

I don`t think that the mixed bag of results this year reflects too badly on the league. That Dundalk Team at their peak should be able to easily match Linfields result last night, and better. Rovers were a kick of the ball away from a great result and arguably should really have finished the Cypriots off in the first leg. Cork and Pats went as expected for two teams in the relative doldroms. Would have been interesting to have seen a Waterford with Bastien Hery in Europe. I was talking to someone who was at Windsor last night, said Hery has been running the games since he signed for them. Gives a lot of credit to Fenlon for pushing Linfield to take European competition seriously. A big crowd of then heading to Kazak for the second leg , so who knows.

[paul_oshea]

They wouldnt see much out in kazakhstan.

Perhaps qarabag arent that good after all. I felt that Dundalk should have beaten them at home at that time when they tired but looked a better outfit in the away leg and expected them to kick on with a few games under their belt. That was clearly wrong.

Dundalks biggest problem looking at those results was they didnt play for a full 90 minutes and werent switche don for a full 90. They played in patches, I'm not sure that fitness related either.

[Yossarian]

Linfield win last night shows that Dundalk performances in Europe this year to be poor ... It was like their were scare of the opposition and not go out and play their own game. Is the league of Ireland going backwards?

So what does Slovan beating PAOK say about Dundalk’s performances then? Linfield were beaten 6 nil by Rosenberg in the champions league qualifier this year so does that mean Qarabag are significantly worse than Rosenberg?
There’s no doubt Dundalk’s performances in Europe this year have been disappointing but judging them on another teams one off performance is harsh. But then we do live in the “hot take” era of instant judgment.

[swinfordfc]

So what does Slovan beating PAOK say about Dundalk’s performances then? Linfield were beaten 6 nil by Rosenberg in the champions league qualifier this year so does that mean Qarabag are significantly worse than Rosenberg?
There’s no doubt Dundalk’s performances in Europe this year have been disappointing but judging them on another teams one off performance is harsh. But then we do live in the “hot take” era of instant judgment.

Dundalk had six games in Europe and they weren't close to wining any of them for a so call experienced team ... Them selves have being saying their geared up for Europe, well they didn't showed nothing, they were very lucky to get by Riga in fairest and were brutal against Qarabag and Slovan - it was like they knew their fate before playing the game! Fairest to Rovers, they put up a fight in Cyprus and had a great win against Brann but Dundalk were poor and Perth coming out talking crap doesn't help ... blaming the players - he's the bloody manager!

[Nesta99]

Did he blame the players? I think he speaks pragmatically, though I can see how things said could be irksome if not a Dundalk fan. self belief coming across as arrogance for example. He hasnt yet completed a season as head coach and hardly a disasterous start. If things continue ti improve on how its been this season so far there wlil be few complaints at Oriel.

[CorribsideSteve]

Linfield win last night shows that Dundalk performances in Europe this year to be poor ... It was like their were scare of the opposition and not go out and play their own game. Is the league of Ireland going backwards?
No, but Dundalk were beyond abject, and it just shows what a bit of belief will do for a team (Linfield). Dundalk had no idea at all whatsoever how to break down Riga, had enough chances to win the slovan ties three times over, made Under 11's sunday league level mistakes in all three ties, and never brought their shooting boots. I keep reading that LOI teams got hard draws and 'if only' we coiuld have got an easier tie. There are no easy ties anymore. LOI sides press the auto self destruct button every year in Europe, and then all we're left with are the 'if only's' and 'what if's'. Sure, Qarabag will likely give Linfield a good beating over there, but Dundalk could have played them 10 times and not won any of them.

[Eminence Grise]

I’m not sure that it’s all down to the Dundalk players either. It’s as much to do with management and coaching. Perth may turn out to be an inspired appointment, but right now he’s relatively inexperienced domestically and very much so in Europe. Kenny had managed so many Euro games (more importantly, so many in single seasons) as well as what he learned in Scotland before managing Dundalk that he reached a level few managers here do. Part of our problem is that we keep appointing the same managers over and over and, being inexperienced in Euro games, some end up - I don’t know - not trusting themselves? Being risk averse?

To make progress in Europe a club needs good players, true, but also an experienced manager at that level, either as a coach or player in a better European league (e.g. Michael O’Neill and Buckley). But to attract that kind of manager a club needs to have been successful in Europe to have the profile and resources to be attractive. I know previous experiences of foreign managers have been mixed, but, really, expecting managers to achieve better results from the experience of taking charge of half a dozen Euro games spread over two or three seasons isn’t realistic. Maybe we need to expand the managerial gene pool?

[Nesta99]

I’m not sure that it’s all down to the Dundalk players either. It’s as much to do with management and coaching. Perth may turn out to be an inspired appointment, but right now he’s relatively inexperienced domestically and very much so in Europe. Kenny had managed so many Euro games (more importantly, so many in single seasons) as well as what he learned in Scotland before managing Dundalk that he reached a level few managers here do. Part of our problem is that we keep appointing the same managers over and over and, being inexperienced in Euro games, some end up - I don’t know - not trusting themselves? Being risk averse?


All very valid comment! I thnk that partially happened at least. When we had no choice but to chase a result especially at home to Qarabag i dont think that its a coincidence that that was the best 45 minutes of any of the games. Im sure the coaches would say that in the away leg in Baku it was game management - keep it tight knowing that Qarabag fade in the last quarter. It was probably the sensible approach but in hindsight an the way the game ended up maybe the right tactic was to take the game to them rather than fear being carved open. Away in Slovan I still feel was a lost opportunity and that they were vulberable enough to be more adventerous. I also thought we played each game as too much seperate rather than seeing opposition as more or less the same over 180mins. Previous years, home or away, tactics were very similar with trying to play on the front foot regardless. I actually think the Larnaca experience has lingered more than it should, as much with Perth as the players. Kenny would have been more steadfast in his belief and set up as he always did, to a fault even. But that is the sort of thing a manager gains with experience if its learnt from. Fenlon is an example of a coach, especially in Europe, that stuck to the defensive methodolgy and nick something, and never evolved in that regard over his coaching career.

For those interested here are highlights of the Linfield v Qarabag game this week. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi74J-5H1Nk

Just watched the highlights myself and a couple of observations. It was workman like by Linfield. First goal the defender should probably have done better and not let the attacker outmuscle him to goalside. Absolue sitter missed by Qarabag hitting the post from 6yds totally unmarked. Set pieces are essential and resulted in two Linfield goals. Qarabag didnt enjoy the spell before half time when Linfield's tails were up. Hatfull of good half chances for Qarabag and like the Dundalk it was looking ominous early on. We have spoken about the need to be more clinical with chances and Lavery's goal was a prime example of super point man play - pressuring the defender, turning him, nicking the ball and then camly cut inside and curled the ball inside the far post. Hery looked to me the main man indeed, comfortable on the ball and kept possession in tight spots well. It emphasises the loss that Benson was in being our main player for that and how key an O'Donnell type player is in central mid, calmness personified under pressure. Hery being dragged down around the neck from behind while not a red card was very cynical and if in rugby the Qarabag player would have been sinbinned. It wasnt a big surprise that the pace at with Qarabag were driving in to the box that a penalty was on the cards especially when they were looking for one - referee looked very good in that regard. Another sitter against the post and some good chances spurned by the away side or the complexion of the game would have been very different.

Linfield have a lot to do still, do they stick and sit in and look to a set piece away goal? If they try to push on they could be heavily punished and and Qarabag levelling the tie and it curtains!

Dundalk need to get back to getting goals from set pieces - Duffy has been shocking considering and those high looped balls to the back post at corners is pure waste. Murray and Flores are far better at delivering a set piece and I think it was a Murray corner that resulted in the goal in Oriel.

Super result for Linfield but generally looking at the highlights the things ye hope go your way on Euro nights did for Linfield. 2016 we werent so reliant on getting a slice of luck, time to get back to creating our own luck for the remainder of this season in all comps and improve performances in Europe next season.

A small observation - at half time v Slovan in Tallaght the Dundalk subs were just pinging shots on goal. I had thought those days had gone as under Kenny at HT subs were doing small drills with one of the coaches rather than teeing up shots. Small detail but its attention to detail that's necessary!!

[Martinho II]

Linfield win last night shows that Dundalk performances in Europe this year to be poor ... It was like their were scare of the opposition and not go out and play their own game. Is the league of Ireland going backwards?

dont forget the influence of Pat Fenlon as general manager with Linfield has made a huge difference to them!

[Nesta99]

No, it should be acknowledged that he has made an impact with improving things at both Waterford and now Linfield in roles as GM/footballing consultant!

[Martinho II]

No, it should be acknowledged that he has made an impact with improving things at both Waterford and now Linfield in roles as GM/footballing consultant!

There was an interview with him on one of the loi podcasts last night and the experience of running businesses when he was playing ie he had a laundry business seems to suit his skillset!

[EatYerGreens]

dont forget the influence of Pat Fenlon as general manager with Linfield has made a huge difference to them!

In what way ?

[Nesta99]

I'd say it was getting them to prepare as best as possible for Europe, something not done previously with any real intent. Earlier start to preseason and a warm weather camp. They werent quite Crusaders with their indifference to Europe obviously. They also now recruit players to fit a team rather than just flex the relative financial muscle to try and hoover up the best of the previous season's IL team of the year.

[Martinho II]

In what way ?

He spent three fruitful years with Linfield in early 90s. He was a very much a fans favourite. He would have worked with a lot of that committee before and obviously he has strong business experience from the time he ran his business whilst playing in the league of ireland/NI league. He went into detail on this on RTE Game on podcast on wednesday night!

[Martinho II]

I'd say it was getting them to prepare as best as possible for Europe, something not done previously with any real intent. Earlier start to preseason and a warm weather camp. They werent quite Crusaders with their indifference to Europe obviously. They also now recruit players to fit a team rather than just flex the relative financial muscle to try and hoover up the best of the previous season's IL team of the year.

fair play to you Nesta you explained it better than I would so I rest my case!

[oriel]

DFC owners have a simple choice really, maintain current quality of squad, and that will return 2 rounds, 3 max in Europe, or invest big, and that would mean at least 3-4 players prob from outside Ireland to have a chance v EL play off.

Its widely accepted its costing P6 led ownership 1m a year for the current shortfall, this year Europe returned 1.2M, it would have gone to 1.5M for play off, then the potential to earn another 2m for EL group stage. Worth noting the 6.2m DFC earned in 2016 was due to extras from that seasons route plus one win and one draw bonus.

Linfield result was excellent last week, the late penalty will prob kill them mind and the 5k travel and 30c heat will be challenging. Amazing recovery from them given they lost 6-0 on agg to Rosenborg in the CL r1. Their route to the game was fortunate and as ever a reminder that this has a huge impact (DFC started 2016 v FH from Iceland), still hard to know how Linfield drew a Faroes team, but there you go, luck of the draw is key.

In summary the best performances from LOI this season were the two wins by Rovers, Dundalk with zero wins from 6 and 2 goals was really not good enough, not even close.

[Martinho II]

DFC owners have a simple choice really, maintain current quality of squad, and that will return 2 rounds, 3 max in Europe, or invest big, and that would mean at least 3-4 players prob from outside Ireland to have a chance v EL play off.

Its widely accepted its costing P6 led ownership 1m a year for the current shortfall, this year Europe returned 1.2M, it would have gone to 1.5M for play off, then the potential to earn another 2m for EL group stage. Worth noting the 6.2m DFC earned in 2016 was due to extras from that seasons route plus one win and one draw bonus.

Linfield result was excellent last week, the late penalty will prob kill them mind and the 5k travel and 30c heat will be challenging. Amazing recovery from them given they lost 6-0 on agg to Rosenborg in the CL r1. Their route to the game was fortunate and as ever a reminder that this has a huge impact (DFC started 2016 v FH from Iceland), still hard to know how Linfield drew a Faroes team, but there you go, luck of the draw is key.

In summary the best performances from LOI this season were the two wins by Rovers, Dundalk with zero wins from 6 and 2 goals was really not good enough, not even close.

had actually forgot that Dundalk hadnt won a game!

[El-Pietro]

had actually forgot that Dundalk hadnt won a game!
Most people probably also forget that Cork City actually did win a game in Europe this year. Not much to brag about given the opposition and the fact that we lost the tie though.

[paul_oshea]

F91 Dudelange
19:00
Ararat-Armenia


Does anyone know or how much football players get paid in Armenia? It's about the same as the national wage. Cork must be regretting that game looking at this(if they even knew). Armenia hold a 2-1 advantage

[paul_oshea]

Ararat*

[Charlie Darwin]

F91 Dudelange
19:00
Ararat-Armenia


Does anyone know or how much football players get paid in Armenia? It's about the same as the national wage. Cork must be regretting that game looking at this(if they even knew). Armenia hold a 2-1 advantage
Cork didn't play Dudelange...

[Nesta99]

I presume it's general Luxemburg league connection that Paul meant.

[Charlie Darwin]

They're all the same really.

[Nesta99]

They probably say the same about us.

[seand]

Dudelange (and Ararat) enjoyed the benefit of the Champions League route.... an extraordinary series of draws brought them together
CL1:
Saburtalo (GEO) unseeded beat Sheriff (MOL), a big surprise and a great win, granted
Nomme Kalju (EST) unseeded beat Shkendija (MAC)
Dudelange (LUX) seeded lost to Valletta (MAL)!!
Ararat (ARM) unseeded lost to AIK (SWE)
CL2:
Nomme Kalju hammered by Celtic, Saburtalo hammered by Dinamo Zagreb
EL2:
Ararat beat LincolnRI (GIB), Dudelange beat Shkendija (MAC)
EL3:
Dudelange by Nomme Kalju, Ararat bt Saburtalo
EL4: Dudelange v Ararat. 6 out of 8 EL4 ties are EL3 winners v CL3 losers, but there are a couple of EL3 winner v EL3 winner ties, this is one of them

[paul_oshea]

I presume it's general Luxemburg league connection that Paul meant.

Yes sorry I should have been clearer. Luxenbourg and armenia are actually close to eachother right? Anyway both a good few spots below Ireland.

Fair point on the draw both had good draws alright. The EL3 winners v winners is interesting.

I suppose it just re-enforces the point about getting lucky with the draw. ALthough when both Irish teams made it to the group stages the penultimate games were not lucky draws.

[CorribsideSteve]

One of the intriguing ties tonight in the Europa League is Ferencvaros vs Suduva. Suduva are 5/2 to qualify via Paddy Power. Tie poised delicately at 0-0. Decent price. Tough one for Linfield though. That second away goal, combined with Qarabag's realization that they need to wake up in the home leg, make it a difficult ask. Be nice to see both do it, as will be a historic first for both Lithuania and N.I.