League of Ireland in Europe 2019

[redobit]

Waterford United did not go into liquidation. Lee Power took over, paid off all the debts and rebranded the Club back to Waterford FC.

If they were only rebranded why are they considered a new club.

[Nesta99]

Exactly! If there were no debts left by the holding company of Waterford United, the rebrand to Waterford FC with a new holding company should not be an issue. Seems transparency issues may extend beyond Abbotstown. Wouldnt the company that Gerry Matthews held for Dundalk FC ceased when the Fastfix lads took over and then the holding company they set up would have been a little over a year old when entering CL?

[geysir]

As soon as Delaney goes, chaos rears its ugly head :rolleyes:
Derry died and a new club called Derry took its place, that's not what happened in Waterford is it?
I expect the smile will be wiped off the face of 'rules is rules' Pats, after being drawn against a club in Kazakhstan in a first round fast exit.

[Yossarian]

I doubt the Pats letter had much to do with this decision. Seems like it was uefa who decided Waterford weren’t eligible to play in Europe and that decision has been in the pipeline for a while. It was well flagged since last year that there were doubts about whether Waterford would be able to play in Europe, just seems that Waterfords influence has dramatically decreased in the recent past.

[Yossarian]

Exactly! If there were no debts left by the holding company of Waterford United, the rebrand to Waterford FC with a new holding company should not be an issue. Seems transparency issues may extend beyond Abbotstown. Wouldnt the company that Gerry Matthews held for Dundalk FC ceased when the Fastfix lads took over and then the holding company they set up would have been a little over a year old when entering CL?

I think Dundalk got an exception to the three year rule because all debt had been paid.

[trevy]

This is terrible as Waterford fans after many years in the wilderness were looking forward to European football. I had booked time off from work in July so would be free to go to the away game. The club had Europa League scarves and badges on sale and any time this 3 year rule was raised we were told everything was fine as it was a takeover and rebranding and all debts were cleared. Then coincidentally or not after major upheaval in the FAI and John Delaney leaves we hear of an objection from St Pats and the FAI quickly release a statement saying Waterford are not eligible. Why was false hope given to the fans since last October when we qualified on the field and why did it take till now to decide on this?
The loss of the UEFA money is a huge blow to the budget and Lee Power might decide he has enough and pull out.

[El-Pietro]

I'm genuinely surprised by this. There must have been some historic debt left unpaid, thats pretty shady by Power. Rumours yesterday he was considering pulling out as well?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Feel sorry for Waterford fans - fans, not the club - but if they aren't eligible, they aren't eligible. There is such a thing as doing too much, too fast. Pats are more than entitled to point it out.

Agree that the timing indicates JD's ongoing downfall might have been a factor. Now its a case of whether Power thinks the investment is worth it for one more year, but Waterford are already a ways off Euro places this season.

[CorribsideSteve]

Interesting to note that Fingal were allowed into the 2010 Europa League, having been in existence for 2 years 8 months. Very similar story to Waterford, but unluckily for them, that 3 year rule came in sometime after 2010. It was a swift move by Pats to get in there and make a case, THE MINUTE jd was no longer an obstacle.

[pineapple stu]

It really feels like the fall of communism in a way; chaos, unpredictability and a bit of a power vacuum, with no-one knowing how things will end up. I've even seen the Times recommend a guy from my old UCD Superleague team for the top post.

We live in interesting times.

[SPXcyan]

What a mess, gutted beyond words, who's truly to blame? certainly not St. Pats, probably the FAI as per usual. Could spell the end for another LOI club.

[total hoofball]

Interesting to note that Fingal were allowed into the 2010 Europa League, having been in existence for 2 years 8 months. Very similar story to Waterford, but unluckily for them, that 3 year rule came in sometime after 2010. It was a swift move by Pats to get in there and make a case, THE MINUTE jd was no longer an obstacle.
Sporting Fingal was a different story to Waterford scenario we are seeing, Fingal were a completely newly formed football club whereas Lee Power's Waterford were a newly formed entity that failed to pay off all creditors from the previous Waterford United entity. If Power had cleared all debts as was previously claimed by himself and the FAI then the same exemption process was there for Waterford to legitimately play in Europe

[sidewayspasser]

Would Waterford consider an appeal to the CAS, or would that just be risking significant legal expenses with little hope for success?

[Ezeikial]

Would Waterford consider an appeal to the CAS, or would that just be risking significant legal expenses with little hope for success?

If what total hoofball suggested is right about not clearing all debts, then an appeal would be foolish

[total hoofball]

Would Waterford consider an appeal to the CAS, or would that just be risking significant legal expenses with little hope for success?
Practically zero chance of success, and I'm sure it would be costly wiping out some of that 240k even if it was overturned. UEFA's rules on this are clearcut. If a new entity of 3 years or less has cleared 100% of the previous entities debts then they can apply for exemption, if there are any creditors still out of pocket then they cannot play in any European competition

[Dalymountrower]

The usual debacle.One unpleasant club owner winning out over another marginally more unpleasant club owner, both of whom have overspent chasing European qualification.
What a f up by Waterford and the FAI

[trevy]

The brief statement by FAI about the rejection of the UEFA licence just mentions the 3 year rule and nothing about unpaid debts. Fran Gavin advised a few months ago all would be fine for Waterford for Europe so we should have started worrying then!
There needs to be more clarity on why Waterford were given these assurances only for UEFA to decide within a very short time that we couldn't play in Europe.
There's a lot of disappointed and angry Waterford fans with the club, the FAI and St Pats in the firing line.

[pineapple stu]

St Pat's shouldn't be in the firing line here.

The question to be asked of Lee Power is why start a new company if he was paying all debts? It makes no sense given this exact rule

Obviously the FAI are in all probability complicit in this mess as well

[joey B]

Given what Lee Power has said today the blame has to lie squarely with the FAI.

If its true that they were assured that the European place was guaranteed then its managed to paint the FAI in an even worse light .
And they've also used St Patrick's Athletic as a deflection which is why they're getting all the unwarranted stick....

[Real ale Madrid]

From this:

https://www.waterfordfc.ie/lee-power-statement-john-delaney/


“John’s involvement and support to Waterford has been excellent and it needs to be put on record.

To This

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/0419/1043579-we-feel-we-have-been-totally-misled-by-the-fai/


We feel we have been totally misled by the FAI and were given assurances throughout this five-month process by them that the licence would be granted.

in the space of two weeks!

I suppose 'involvement and support' wasn't that excellent after all.

Feel sorry for Waterford fans.

[total hoofball]

The brief statement by FAI about the rejection of the UEFA licence just mentions the 3 year rule and nothing about unpaid debts. Fran Gavin advised a few months ago all would be fine for Waterford for Europe so we should have started worrying then!
There needs to be more clarity on why Waterford were given these assurances only for UEFA to decide within a very short time that we couldn't play in Europe.
There's a lot of disappointed and angry Waterford fans with the club, the FAI and St Pats in the firing line.
Waterford and Lee Power can plead ignorance, blame the FAI, Pats or whoever but everything on UEFA Club licensing is on their website, a quick google search could have saved your troubles but in reality Power and the FAI knew exactly what they were doing hoping to flout UEFA regulations when there were outstanding creditors

Its in black and white on the link on the UEFA website, pages 10, 14, 50, 51, 55 cover Waterford's scenario

https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/protecting-the-game/club-licensing/index.html

[EatYerGreens]

From this:

https://www.waterfordfc.ie/lee-power-statement-john-delaney/



To This

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/0419/1043579-we-feel-we-have-been-totally-misled-by-the-fai/



in the space of two weeks!

I suppose 'involvement and support' wasn't that excellent after all.

Feel sorry for Waterford fans.

'When you sup with the devil - always remember to use a long spoon'.

[geysir]

St Pat's shouldn't be in the firing line here.

The question to be asked of Lee Power is why start a new company if he was paying all debts? It makes no sense given this exact rule

Obviously the FAI are in all probability complicit in this mess as well
Didn't Power just set up a new management company to run the club, not set up a new club? Do LOI clubs not have their own separate club identity with a separate registered constitution?

[red bellied]

Good timing by Pats in getting this over turned. How didn't they object to this at the end of last season?

[Yossarian]

Good timing by Pats in getting this over turned. How didn't they object to this at the end of last season?

Waterford said in their statement that this has been ongoing for five months so I think Pats intervention was not a factor at all. Seems it’s more like the FAI announced that Pats had a query when it would be likely they already knew the UEFA judgement, in order to try and shift any ire towards Pats and away from them.

[pineapple stu]

Didn't Power just set up a new management company to run the club, not set up a new club? Do LOI clubs not have their own separate club identity with a separate registered constitution?
So the obvious answer to this is I don't know what Power did.

But let's speculate. It's all we can do, and it's fun.

We know that in 2014, Bray Wanderers traded as Bray Wanderers Limited, which in turn was owned by various shareholders - Pat Devlin, Eddie Cox, Eddie Slevin, etc. You can see this in the CRO records.

In 2015, the club was bought over by Denis O'Connor and Gerry Mulvey. They set up a new company, Milway Dawn Limited, to buy Bray Wanderers Limited - again, you can see this in the CRO records. But the club continued to trade as Bray Wanderers Limited and, importantly, the licence was held in the name of Bray Wanderers Limited.

So the club was bought, but no debts were written off and the continuity was kept. There was never any doubts cast over Bray's eligibility to play in Europe if they qualified (and they came close in 2016) - albeit that push never came to shove here.

So if Waterford did the same thing, why the different outcome? Well, one obvious answer is that they didn't do the same thing. I think Lee Power came along and set up a new company and applied for a club licence through that new company. This is why the club name had to change - because Waterford United was, say ABC Limited, but Power wanted DEF Limited to be the company, so he couldn't call the club Waterford United because that club already existed. Waterford United were simply left to die.

The FAI must have known that there were issues with this because it was literally 18 months since something similar had happened with Bray Wanderers.

So I still think the high probability is Power deliberately set up a new company to start Waterford off with a clean financial slate - it helps that if a First Division club goes bust, they start back at the same level, which is daft. If that's the case, then they screwed over Cobh in 2017; Cobh were runners-up to Waterford that year. This is the exact reason the rule is in place.

If the above is the case, then Waterford absolutely deserve to be refused permission to play in Europe this year, and Power and the FAI have combined to screw over their fans.

The only plus in all of this is that even if Power goes, there's at least been a huge increase in local interest, which may be somewhat sustainable if they can stay up and rebuild.

[pineapple stu]

Waterford said in their statement that this has been ongoing for five months
I wonder what was "ongoing" for five months?

Either they're eligible or not. It shouldn't take five months to decide that.

[Longfordian]

Would Waterford consider an appeal to the CAS, or would that just be risking significant legal expenses with little hope for success?

Power has stated that he’s asked his UK lawyers to appeal. Maybe he’s footing the bill for that himself?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Depending on what assurances the FAI gave Waterford that they would be in Europe there could be some very interesting legal battles on the way. Doubt we'll see another letter of support for Delaney from Power anyway

[geysir]

I wonder what was "ongoing" for five months?

Either they're eligible or not. It shouldn't take five months to decide that.
The answer to that may lie in this article (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/waterford-in-limbo-as-euro-doubts-prompt-power-exit-fears-over-potential-240k-budget-hit-38030575.html) the issue has been ongoing for a number of months since Pats first made their moves some months ago.
Gavin took the viewpoint that Waterford were uefa certified because the old debts were paid.

[pineapple stu]

So by "ongoing", it appears to mean that they asked months ago the FAI said "Yeah, sure it'll be grand; don't worry about it"?

562k is a hell of a lot for a LoI club to lose in one season. Europe wouldn't put a dent in that tbh.

[forza]

The answer to that may lie in this article (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/waterford-in-limbo-as-euro-doubts-prompt-power-exit-fears-over-potential-240k-budget-hit-38030575.html) the issue has been ongoing for a number of months since Pats first made their moves some months ago.
Gavin took the viewpoint that Waterford were uefa certified because the old debts were paid.

Looking at the Waterford fans forum, apparently they owe somebody a few quid ... an ex manager, so any argument they have is null and void should they appeal.

[Ezeikial]

No need for a CAS hearing. Jawn Delaney could just ask for an extra team to be allowed in the competition

[RathfarnhamHoop]

No need for a CAS hearing. Jawn Delaney could just ask for an extra team to be allowed in the competition

Power to ask for 5 million compensation in exchange for shutting up about it all

[marinobohs]

Waterford are no more or less eligible today than they were 6 months ago. If they were told by the FAI that they were eligible then they should take it up with the FAI directly. UEFA are unlikely to change their mind and Waterford will **** away a fortune challenging the decision.
Sounds like Delaney (or someone else at FAI) promised something they couldn’t deliver.

[Nesta99]

Surely the FAI are wide open for Waterford to seek compensation from them. If they stated that its all good to go for Waterford and that has not been the case then Waterford could have a case to seek compensation related to expenses thay committed to on the basis of 'qualifying' for Europe. They should have known the rules but the FAI ahve more or less said ignore that and we'll sort you out. Waterford's cheerleader and UEFA influence gets cut lose and the picture changes quickly. Any lack of sympathy I have is based on the spin that the Wterford name change was just that a name chage and no more, not a phoenix club that was cutting creditors loose. Im liking this new air of transparency that is suddenly happening (in baby steps) at Abbotstown!

[pineapple stu]

You can't sue the FAI I think - participation agreement.

Though that may be tested if Delaney's gone I guess

[Nesta99]

You can't sue the FAI I think - participation agreement.

Though that may be tested if Delaney's gone I guess

I would like to see that tested in the courts regardless of Delaney or not. I was of the opinion that agreeing not to sue, like with those signs on entering a premises at ones own risk dont stack up in a court of law if there is a case to be answered, im sure the same principle applies. Be ironic if it was Waterford challanging the FAI in this regard.

[pineapple stu]

I'm not sure what they'd have anyway. Anything the FAI "promised" must surely (a) be ultra vires and (b) evidential that Waterford knew a stroke was being pulled

[Nesta99]

It'd be a long shot probably but the FAI did say that they would be ok for Europe, no sense of maybe on this. It was a committal statement from Gavin that has since been overturned, there could be a case for the minimum earnings for EL qualification. It would probably depend on the reasons behind the FAIs confidence that it would be grand. If they were providing false info....

[pineapple stu]

Well, we only have Power's word for that, don't we?

[A N Mouse]

It'd be a long shot probably but the FAI did say that they would be ok for Europe, no sense of maybe on this. It was a committal statement from Gavin that has since been overturned, there could be a case for the minimum earnings for EL qualification. It would probably depend on the reasons behind the FAIs confidence that it would be grand. If they were providing false info....

Well assurances can be sought and assurances can be given. But when the assessment and appeals processes are meant to be independent of administrators they mean feck all squared.

Now have the fai managed to actually get out of this relatively unscathed? Or does this hint of outstanding football debt open a can of worms about the domestic licencing process? Did we miss the usual whiff of fudge in the stench of bs?

[geysir]

It'd be a long shot probably but the FAI did say that they would be ok for Europe, no sense of maybe on this. It was a committal statement from Gavin that has since been overturned, there could be a case for the minimum earnings for EL qualification. It would probably depend on the reasons behind the FAIs confidence that it would be grand. If they were providing false info....
The FAI informed Waterford and the wider public of their considered opinion that Waterford would get their licence.
However Gavin did not offer an absolute committal statement.
"We don't see any significant issues around Waterford that would prohibit them from getting a licence"

Gavin should have seen the issues for what they were worth.
The FAI are governing the LOI, Gavin is the person responsible and this was a cut and dried case to a person in that position, especially as Pats had made it known to the FAI of their reservations and preparations for replacing Waterford.
The FAI are being handsomely paid by the clubs to govern the league and in this case they have totally fcked it up.

[desaintsno.12]

All confirmed #TechnicalitySaints

[D24Saint]

Sad to see some Waterford fans buying the spin making us out to be the bad guys. The FAI and JD are to blame for this mess.

[Dalymountrower]

Sad to see some Waterford fans buying the spin making us out to be the bad guys. The FAI and JD are to blame for this mess.

Will the Europa League participation windfall be spent on the club, e.g players, remedial work on the shed to stop it caving in, or will the club owner dip his beak in?

[seand]

Will the Europa League participation windfall be spent on the club, e.g players, remedial work on the shed to stop it caving in, or will the club owner dip his beak in?

There's a clause in the contract for League of Ireland clubs. Any Euro prize money that isn't siphoned off by the owners must be pished away on player wages.

[Yossarian]

There's a clause in the contract for League of Ireland clubs. Any Euro prize money that isn't siphoned off by the owners must be pished away on player wages.

This happens after the FAI get a “bridging loan” to pay the club the money they are due.

[D24Saint]

Will the Europa League participation windfall be spent on the club, e.g players, remedial work on the shed to stop it caving in, or will the club owner dip his beak in?

unfortunately we can’t rely on the corpo to sort our ground out. Its all fan and owner funded.

[marinobohs]

unfortunately we can’t rely on the corpo to sort our ground out. Its all fan and owner funded.

in other words 'not done' ;)