League of Ireland in Europe 2019

[sbgawa]

Sad to see some Waterford fans buying the spin making us out to be the bad guys. The FAI and JD are to blame for this mess.


too easy to blame the FAI for everything.
Whoever Lee Powers legal advisors were on the Waterford Takeover should have received cast iron written assurances from the FAI that this was not an issue as part of the Due Diligence process.
They either did'nt (or they would be simply asking the FAI for a cheque now) or more likely is it would have been raised as an issue by any half competent firm and that Power ignored the advice based on "reassurances" daft approach to business.
People are always looking for someone else to blame, the 3 year rule was well known and Waterford went ahead with the structure knowing that.

[Nesta99]

But also knwoing that Fingal got an exemption in the past. It changes the perspective on the renaming of Waterford. There probably were as close to cast iron assurances you could get when their man was in charge here and sat on the UEFA board. Would he have dirtied his bib in Europe by pulling a stroke for his own club? Absolutely yes as the man was blinded by his ego! Doesnt make it any easier on Waterford fans. Couldnt give a toss about Lee Power himself as he was chancing his arm and timing let him down.

[sbgawa]

Fingal was different it was a brand new club so no possibility of old unpaid debts or any other issues.
If i was taking over a football club (Which would entail winning the lotto and a frontal lobotomy happening simultaneously) i would assume that it was an issue and not proceed with the new structure unless i had written reassurances.
If there were no debts or any other issues knocking around re the old Waterford entity Power could have simply taken over that entity, the fact he refused to screams of issues that were known about and ignored.

[sidewayspasser]

I don't get why some people keep referring to the Fingal case as a precedent. If I'm not completely mistaken, Fingal was a new club without potential legacy problems from any earlier incarnation (because there was no earlier incarnation), so that was a completely different case in my opinion.

[El-Pietro]

I don't get why some people keep referring to the Fingal case as a precedent. If I'm not completely mistaken, Fingal was a new club without potential legacy problems from any earlier incarnation (because there was no earlier incarnation), so that was a completely different case in my opinion.

Exactly. The rules were created to stop people from doing exactly what Power did here. If he had started a new club in the middle of nowhere completely unrelated to any other club. Say Dungarvan FC, all new players colours stadium etc and they got into Europe in 2 years then UEFA would give them a pass because they didn't do anything wrong.
But taking over an existing club, wiping the slate/debt etc clean by starting a new holding company and changing the club name is exactly the kind of thing they wanted to discourage.

[patsdad]

Will the Europa League participation windfall be spent on the club, e.g players, remedial work on the shed to stop it caving in, or will the club owner dip his beak in? I think it's pretty well known that, far from "dipping his beak in", the club owner puts substantial money in every year and has done so for a long time.

[Kevin L]

I presume the FAI signed off on Waterfords budget to grant them a licence. I presume that budget would have included the increased costs plus the extra revenue from Europe which wouldn't have been there the year before.

[sbgawa]

Its up to individual clubs to deliver on their budgets not the FAI.
If Powers advisers left them open to being thrown out of Europe because of the structure they used for the takeover then i blame them.
If Powers advisers told Power there were risks and he ignored them then he is at fault.

If the Advisers didn't realize there was a 3 year rule he should sue them for Professional Negligence.
When Limerick/Bray don't deliver on their budget and don't pay their players its the clubs owners fault not the FAI.
Bray are going well with bigger crowds and a decent team (against my expectations) is that because of the "atmosphere" created by the FAI or because the new owners are running a better show?

I'm ranting a bit (whats new :) ) but the majority of the problems in the LOI are down to the people running the clubs.
Yes the FAI could help by being more proactive when it comes to the LOI but different clubs operating in the same envioronment are run either well, or ok , or badly.

[Kevin L]

Nobody knows on here what the exact story is but what we do know is that the FAI/Licencing Committee signed off on Waterfords budget to grant them a licence.
Any substantial increase from the year before will have being or should have been queried by the FAI. If the explanation for the increase was increased prize money due to Europe and the FAI accepted this, then you have to feel a bit sorry for Waterford.
You are correct to say that it is up to the clubs to deliver on their budget but that's not my point here

[sbgawa]

The FAI accepted Waterfords budget for sure, just like they accept every clubs Budget /Forecast.
I'm sure Corks budget had a bigger forecast for crowds and doubt Bohs had predicted full houses.
The clubs have to take responsibility when they are up or down or miss their estimates.

Waterford put a structure in place that didn't meet with UEFA approval and have now been thrown out of Europa League.
I know who i would blame when the budget isn't hit.

[seand]

Euro prize money can only go into the following season's budget, as far as I know

[Nesta99]

I don't get why some people keep referring to the Fingal case as a precedent. If I'm not completely mistaken, Fingal was a new club without potential legacy problems from any earlier incarnation (because there was no earlier incarnation), so that was a completely different case in my opinion.

The Fingal case gets references due to Wateford/Power presenting his takeover and rebranding the club while addressing any legacy issues of Waterford United. This has truned out to be a spoof. I would hedge my bets that that spoof involved complicit people in the FAI who gave a nod and a wink that all would be ok for Waterford FC. As soon as their champion chancer's involvement in the FAI is suspended, within days Pats were making a righful and successful case and Waterford get binned. That's gonna be a kick where it hurts for one legacy family of Waterford. Its probably a tad cynical at best for me to think and conspiracy like at worst. But Waterford fans aside there is a sense of satisfaction in the wink and nod from a former Waterford boardmember be smashed back in his face as soon as it was possible. Lee Power imo was given the opportunity to cut corners, take risks, take somones word on sorting things out etc and it backfired. Without wanting to cross threads, I think it is very possible that this is all connected to some in the FAI working to oust what they saw was the trouble child bully in Abbotstown, when the child was sent off to play on his own his plaything starts being dismantled including possible flouting of the laws for one of the favourite pets....apologies for the child analogies but it does seem appropriate!

[trevy]

Waterford qualified for Europe last October so why didn't the FAI check out their eligibility with UEFA then instead of waiting till 6 months later? If the club had been advised a few months ago they would not be eligible people would have accepted it better. The timing of it is very suspicious. It feels like St Pats saw their opportunity following John Delaney's departure.
Lee Power won't take this lying down and the very least the club should get is compensated and a public explanation about what went on after being led astray by FAI assurances. The club knew of the 3 year rule as it was brought up last season and possibly didn't expect to have got to Europe so soon at time of takeover.

[pineapple stu]

Because the point appears to be that the FAI agreed to turn a blind eye to it. And as others have said above, the implication in all that is that Power was complicit.

I've no proof of that of course, but it's the easiest explanation that fits the observable facts

[EatYerGreens]

Waterford qualified for Europe last October so why didn't the FAI check out their eligibility with UEFA then instead of waiting till 6 months later? If the club had been advised a few months ago they would not be eligible people would have accepted it better. The timing of it is very suspicious. It feels like St Pats saw their opportunity following John Delaney's departure.

Which if that was the case is evidence if the FAI intervening to bend the rules in favour of Delaney's club.

The bottom line is that Waterford weren't eligible. Fact. If the FAI were looking to pull a fast one to try to get around that, then it's clear where the fault lies.

[QUOTE=trevy;1999967] Lee Power won't take this lying down and the very least the club should get is compensated and a public explanation about what went on after being led astray by FAI assurances. The club knew of the 3 year rule as it was brought up last season and possibly didn't expect to have got to Europe so soon at time of takeover.

Why would Waterford be due any compensation ? And who from ? You even state yourself that they knew what the rule was on this.

It looks like Waterford and Delaney conspired to pull a fast one here, and that once Delaney was off the scene the proper rules were applied instead. It may well be that Waterford wouldn't have got into Europe even if Delaney was still around, but the bottom line is that they knew the rule and somehow thought it wouldn't apply to them. They were wrong.

[trevy]

The FAI gave assurances that Waterford should be eligible for Europe and there was no indication there would be a problem till about 10 days ago so they should compensate Waterford for the loss of the UEFA money. The club were aware of the 3 year rule but were told they should be exempt from it. That was clearly wrong and Waterford are paying the price for it.
If there is a court case about this I'm sure we will find out more about what happened.

[pineapple stu]

Why won't you acknowledge the possibility that this was Delaney agreeing with Power that he'd sort ye out and it'd bee grand? If that's the case, it'd surely come out in any court case, which would decide matters on the spot.

Evidently Waterford have left debts unpaid which gave them an unfair advantage in the 2017 First Division. Probably no-one expected ye to qualify this early when Power said he'd come in and flash the cash if some debt could be "cleared", but here we are.

This is entirely Waterford's and the FAI's making. I've every sympathy for Waterford fans.

[EatYerGreens]

Why won't you acknowledge the possibility that this was Delaney agreeing with Power that he'd sort ye out and it'd bee grand? If that's the case, it'd surely come out in any court case, which would decide matters on the spot.

Evidently Waterford have left debts unpaid which gave them an unfair advantage in the 2017 First Division. Probably no-one expected ye to qualify this early when Power said he'd come in and flash the cash if some debt could be "cleared", but here we are.

This is entirely Waterford's and the FAI's making. I've every sympathy for Waterford fans.

Exactly. It looks and smells as if shenanigans were afoot on this one.

Otherwise, why would a UEFA Executive Committee member suggest that a UEFA rule didn't need to apply to the club he 'supported' (though how often was Delaney seen at the RSC ?). Power and Delaney appeared to have a close relationship of some sort. 'If you sup with the devil', and all that.

[forza]

The FAI gave assurances that Waterford should be eligible for Europe and there was no indication there would be a problem till about 10 days ago so they should compensate Waterford for the loss of the UEFA money. The club were aware of the 3 year rule but were told they should be exempt from it. That was clearly wrong and Waterford are paying the price for it.
If there is a court case about this I'm sure we will find out more about what happened.

Keywords "should be eligible", not are eligible...

[trevy]

I agree that is a possibility Pineapple Stu given John Delaney's power in the FAI and UEFA.
Here is a quote from February from Fran Gavin printed in this week's Waterford Today.'We don't see any issues that would prohibit them from getting a licence'.
If something changed in the meantime such as finding the club did not clear all debts from the previous regime that should be made public.
My point is it should never have got to this stage less than 2 months before the draw.

[total hoofball]

The FAI gave assurances that Waterford should be eligible for Europe and there was no indication there would be a problem till about 10 days ago so they should compensate Waterford for the loss of the UEFA money. The club were aware of the 3 year rule but were told they should be exempt from it. That was clearly wrong and Waterford are paying the price for it.
If there is a court case about this I'm sure we will find out more about what happened.
Last time I checked it was UEFA who approve eligibility for European Competitions and not the FAI, but hey lets deflect the blame for all this away from this unfortunate multi millionaire businessman that already owns a professional EFL club who both he and his expensive UK legal team were all too ignorant to conduct due diligence (a quick google search) on UEFA European Club Licensing two and half years ago when he formed a new professional football club entity that would have saved all of this unfortunate hassle

[pineapple stu]

Here is a quote from February from Fran Gavin printed in this week's Waterford Today.'We don't see any issues that would prohibit them from getting a licence'.
If something changed in the meantime such as finding the club did not clear all debts from the previous regime that should be made public.
Fran Gavin is hardly going to come out and say "Waterford should be grand - I know they're not eligible but we're going to find a fudge around that, don't worry"

What "changed in the meantime" appears to have been that the person who was fudging things got caught spending money on stuff he really shouldn't have been and got kicked out of office, so was unable to fudge things any more.

All the visible facts tie in with this idea that Waterford weren't eligible but Delaney told Power he would bend the rules, and now that he's gone, the rules can't be bent. It's really unfortunate for Waterford fans - but surely there has to be some acknowledgement of this fact, and of what it implies?


My point is it should never have got to this stage less than 2 months before the draw.
I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

[Nesta99]

It should never have been anything other than knowing that Waterford would be denied a licence for 3 years so never been an issue never mind new news 2 months befor the draw. I can understand the ire with the FAI but they were going to cheat on Waterford's and Lee Powers behalf but were stopped. Power is bound to have enquired with the FAI on criteria for Europe, his case would be to admit that he was told the FAI would break the rules somehow and get them in. The FAI could easily have suggested that the right thing be done and clear any legacy debt of Waterford United or Euopean licence would be an issue. This would also all seem to me that Waterford United no longer exist in any form. Waterford FC is a phoenix club starting from scratch. Power nearly fooled people in the 'simple name change' stunt. Im sure the old clubs roll of honour can be purchased from someone down the line...

[seand]

Lovers of Bert Kassies (and if you're not a lover of Bert what's wrong with you?) will be pleased to see he's got a 2019-20 Europa League seeding page up and running as we move towards knowing all the qualifiers. You already have Bert's page bookmarked of course, but here's the link

https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/

[ToberonaTornado]

This was coming,right?
NIFL set to lose one of three Europa League places in 2020/21https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/48542126

[pineapple stu]

Yep; they're in the bottom 4 leagues I think.

That'll be cyclical to an extent - the lowest leagues will gain extra points by virtue of having an extra qualifying round, but now it's the North who should gain extra points as a result and lift back up again

[seand]

Wow, didn't realise they'd dropped below Faroes and Gibraltar! (as well as Wales) That'll be for 2020-21. It's all change after that anyway, with Europa League 2 coming in.

I've said it before, but whenever you think the League of Ireland is a hopeless, bankrupt, shambolic basket case, remember things could be a lot worse. It could by the Irish League.

[sbgawa]

kind of makes you question the value of a 32 county league all right.
What would they be bringing to the party

[pineapple stu]

Much better community spirit in the IL from what I've seen. Given their population, their crowds are better than here, especially away crowds. They don't give a damn about Europe for whatever reason, which costs them. And of course, the preliminary rounds now guarantee some churn at the bottom, so they're fourth bottom, not fourth worst.

I don't think we can look down on them entirely.

[oriel]

Most IL clubs do not take europe seriously and this is what you get as a result losing one spot, they still have 3 spots, which is very good to be fair.

It would appear very few clubs seem to have an appetite to change things and progress from what I have seen, and I've been to a fair few games as its not far from me. I don't think the standard is very good, a lot of players look unfit, and almost all are happy with the current part time set up, 3pm on a Saturday suits them perfectly as most have jobs, not too much ambition really.

Derry City still have the biggest average crowd in all of NI with just under 3k,(on this years figs), just have a look at BBC NI when Institute are playing in the same ground on Saturday's and you'll see the difference, almost non league stuff.

The LOI is far from perfect, but its a big step up from most IL teams, one thing they have going for though is the grounds, a lot up there are decent to be fair, even with the horrible high fencing. The stands that Crusaders have behind both goals is perfect for this level, as is Clifftonville, two good examples.

[Nesta99]

Most IL clubs do not take europe seriously and this is what you get as a result losing one spot, they still have 3 spots, which is very good to be fair.

It would appear very few clubs seem to have an appetite to change things and progress from what I have seen, and I've been to a fair few games as its not far from me. I don't think the standard is very good, a lot of players look unfit, and almost all are happy with the current part time set up, 3pm on a Saturday suits them perfectly as most have jobs, not too much ambition really.

Derry City still have the biggest average crowd in all of NI with just under 3k,(on this years figs), just have a look at BBC NI when Institute are playing in the same ground on Saturday's and you'll see the difference, almost non league stuff.

The LOI is far from perfect, but its a big step up from most IL teams, one thing they have going for though is the grounds, a lot up there are decent to be fair, even with the horrible high fencing. The stands that Crusaders have behind both goals is perfect for this level, as is Clifftonville, two good examples.

and they are movable, if they get their new ground development and complex going they can take these new stand with them.

[swinfordfc]

Wales v N Ireland in qualifying round of Europa League

[lofty9]

Given their population, their crowds are better than here, especially away crowds. They don't give a damn about Europe for whatever reason, which costs them.

Not too far to travel for away games helps.
As for Europe, God forbid if you mess with July for the majority here. Everywhere apart from Derry, there is a July fortnight, expect all work productivity, except policing and fire services to ground to a halt. Most of the players who work are likely to have this time off and their other halves and kids need a holiday!

[Dalymountrower]

Bohs Under 19's have qualified again for Champions league qualification round.

[Ezeikial]

Bohs Under 19's have qualified again for Champions league qualification round.

Brilliant achievement. I hope they do really well

[nigel-harps1954]

Prelim draw made featuring our northern friends.



Progrès (LUX) v Cardiff MU (WAL)
La Fiorita (SMR) v Engordany (AND)
Sant Julià (AND) v Europa (GIB)
Ballymena United (NIR) v NSÍ (FRO)
Prishtina (KOS) v St Joseph's (GIB)
Tre Fiori (SMR) v KÍ Klaksvík (FRO)
Barry Town (WAL) v Cliftonville (NIR)



Crusaders are in the First qualifying round.

[pineapple stu]

A team of students off to Luxembourg again.

Progres will be annoyed to be in the preliminary round given they beat Rangers two years ago

[seand]

Assuming the draw is semi-regionalised the Irish non-seeds Rovers and Pats could be looking at some of these:
Poland (Legia, Cracovia), Sweden (Malmo, Norrkoping), Norway (Molde, Brann, Haugesund), Belarus? (Dinamo, Shakhtyor, Vitebsk), Brondby, Lithuania (Zalgiris, Riteriai), Scotland (Aberdeen, Rangers, Killie), Crusaders, Latvia (Ventspils) Iceland (Stjarnan), Luxembourg? (Fola), Estonia (Levadia).
Plenty of tough ones there, but you’d fancy Crusaders, anyone from the Baltics or Fola Esch,

Cork will be seeded, so some possible Northern opponents:
Preliminary round winners (inc Cliftonville, Ballymena, Barry, Cardiff Met), Faroes (B36), Connah's Quay, Estonia (Flora, Trans Narva), Latvia (Liepaja, RFS Riga), Lithuania (Stumbras), Iceland(KR / Breidablik ), Finland (KuPS, RoPS, Inter Turku)
I know Cork aren’t in great form but not much to fear there. Avoid Finland preferably.

[dundalkfc10]

Assuming the draw is semi-regionalised the Irish non-seeds Rovers and Pats could be looking at some of these:
Poland (Legia, Cracovia), Sweden (Malmo, Norrkoping), Norway (Molde, Brann, Haugesund), Belarus? (Dinamo, Shakhtyor, Vitebsk), Brondby, Lithuania (Zalgiris, Riteriai), Scotland (Aberdeen, Rangers, Killie), Crusaders, Latvia (Ventspils) Iceland (Stjarnan), Luxembourg? (Fola), Estonia (Levadia).
Plenty of tough ones there, but you’d fancy Crusaders, anyone from the Baltics or Fola Esch,

Cork will be seeded, so some possible Northern opponents:
Preliminary round winners (inc Cliftonville, Ballymena, Barry, Cardiff Met), Faroes (B36), Connah's Quay, Estonia (Flora, Trans Narva), Latvia (Liepaja, RFS Riga), Lithuania (Stumbras), Iceland(KR / Breidablik ), Finland (KuPS, RoPS, Inter Turku)
I know Cork aren’t in great form but not much to fear there. Avoid Finland preferably.

Imagine Rovers get Rangers, cant see that ending well at all.

[sbgawa]

If we did get Rangers i hope we stay in Tallaght for it.
Would be tempting to go to the Aviva so we could fill it with celtic supporters and get a few bob (you'd have to think it would get a good crowd) but i'd fancy us to beat them in Tallaght given they will be in pre season.

[D24Saint]

Will Northern Europe be separate from Central Europe in the draw or will UEFA just combine both.

[El-Pietro]

Will Northern Europe be separate from Central Europe in the draw or will UEFA just combine both.

Its loose. They don't have a strict rule on geaographic groupings anymore but they still tend to keep Northern teams (everyone North of Poland, Lux, Belarus etc) together but it depends on numbers. Usually you'll see one or two teams from Azerbaijan, Armena, Georgia or that region in the pre draw groups with Northern European teams to make up the numbers. There tends to be more Northern non seeds than seeds which complicates things.

[D24Saint]

That’s my biggest fear is a wildcard of sorts tossed in to bulk out a pot. The logistics of getting to some of these countries for LOI sides can be a nightmare.

[El-Pietro]

That’s my biggest fear is a wildcard of sorts tossed in to bulk out a pot. The logistics of getting to some of these countries for LOI sides can be a nightmare.

In the past I've figured out routes to every possible destination, one year I had two routes to a Kazahkstan team near the Uzbeki border. The flight via Tashkent was about 800 euro. The flight via Almaty was much longer and over 2 grand. The problem with the Taskkent flight was it would require a visa for Uzbekistan which I could only get in London. I'm hoping we get Wales or similar this year, though I would love a trip to the Faroes.

[D24Saint]

The biggest bonus is the time to arrange any trip which wasn’t always the case with UEFA.

[seand]

If we did get Rangers i hope we stay in Tallaght for it.
Would be tempting to go to the Aviva so we could fill it with celtic supporters and get a few bob (you'd have to think it would get a good crowd) but i'd fancy us to beat them in Tallaght given they will be in pre season.

I dunno if the Aviva would be a runner at all. Not sure how many Celtic fans would pay to watch Rangers against some random Irish club they've barely heard of, and how would you stop 10,000 Nordie nutjobs from getting tickets in the 'home' end? Tallaght would be easier to manage, more financially viable and a lot easier to manage for the club and the Gardai. Definitely a draw to avoid, it's not a money spinner, it's not a pleasant away trip and under Stevie G they're hugely improved and would rightly be red hot favourites against any Irish side

[sbgawa]

Yeah all of the above for sure but the lure of 10000 nut job nordies at €30 a head is tempting :)

[Dalymountrower]

Hopefully Kazakstan and Azerbajan for you all!😄

[D24Saint]

I dunno if the Aviva would be a runner at all. Not sure how many Celtic fans would pay to watch Rangers against some random Irish club they've barely heard of, and how would you stop 10,000 Nordie nutjobs from getting tickets in the 'home' end? Tallaght would be easier to manage, more financially viable and a lot easier to manage for the club and the Gardai. Definitely a draw to avoid, it's not a money spinner, it's not a pleasant away trip and under Stevie G they're hugely improved and would rightly be red hot favourites against any Irish side

Mirrors my thoughts. It’s the least favourable draw imo.

[marinobohs]

I dunno if the Aviva would be a runner at all. Not sure how many Celtic fans would pay to watch Rangers against some random Irish club they've barely heard of, and how would you stop 10,000 Nordie nutjobs from getting tickets in the 'home' end? Tallaght would be easier to manage, more financially viable and a lot easier to manage for the club and the Gardai. Definitely a draw to avoid, it's not a money spinner, it's not a pleasant away trip and under Stevie G they're hugely improved and would rightly be red hot favourites against any Irish side

I think the 10,000 northie nut jobs are exactly what they would be looking for (along with a few disso hangers on from here.)
Unfortunately football would have little to do with it so best left alone even though it would be financially great - huge crowd, probably TV money and little travel.