View Full Version : The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players
Mr_Parker
01/12/2009, 5:09 PM
Therefore how on earth can something definitively be 50% of a number that nobody knows?:confused:
Exactly.
Yet did your new chairman state this would be the case?
Yet did your new chairman state this would be the case?
I'm sure he was given an estimate on what our budget was, and he did say it would be at LEAST 50% of last years budget
Buile Shuibhne
01/12/2009, 6:40 PM
DERRY CITY boss Stephen Kenny's efforts to assemble a squad for next season's First Division continue to be hampered by a lack of financial information surrounding the day-to-day running of the club during last season's campaign.
The lack of figures from last year means the new Derry City FC Limited Board of Directors have been so far unable to establish a budget for the 2010 season leaving Kenny with his hands tied in regards to negotiating with players.
However, Derry City Chairman, Philip O'Doherty confirmed yesterday the new Board are continuing to work on reaching a budget and are confident they will be able to present more concrete figure to the Dubliner within the next few days.
"Financial figures from last year are all over the place at the minute so we're just estimating a possible budget for next season," revealed O'Doherty. ........................
http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Kenny39s-hands-tied.5872873.jp?
Sam_Heggy
01/12/2009, 6:44 PM
http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Kenny39s-hands-tied.5872873.jp?
My heart bleeds for them.
"We're also hoping for an increase in numbers attending games or at least hoping there will be no real difference in attendance numbers from last year.
What? Does anybody really think the numbers will stay the same in D1?
Meanwhile Derry City's 140 page application to join the League of Ireland First Division was sent to the FAI in Abbottstown this week and O'Doherty is confident of receiving a positive response from the FAI by the beginning of next week.
"It's a very detailed, 140 page document covering everything about the new set-up at Derry City FC Limited. Jack McCauley and Martin McDaid held preliminary discussions with the FAI last Tuesday and we're hoping to get a response next week.
"We've had to start from scratch but I'm confident it will be successful. There was no show-stopping questions, it was just the volume of work involved."
This is the important bit.
Mr_Parker
01/12/2009, 7:13 PM
I'm sure he was given an estimate on what our budget was, and he did say it would be at LEAST 50% of last years budget
Yet the quote from the Derry Journal indicates no one has a clue what it was last year, so "it will be at least 50% of something we dont know." :)
Yet the quote from the Derry Journal indicates no one has a clue what it was last year, so "it will be at least 50% of something we dont know." :)
Like I said i'm sure Philip O'Doherty was given an estimate on last years budget, and has given a rough estimation that it will be at least half of that estimate:)
higgins
01/12/2009, 9:31 PM
If you go to 50% you'll be in trouble..
You lose a lot more than just gate money by being in the First Division.
Shels are currently at about a playing budget of 15% of what we were at when we exploded.
and we've crowds of about 75% of what we had then :)
If anyone at your new club thinks crowds equals playing budget you'll be gone just as soon as you start.
Acornvilla
01/12/2009, 9:36 PM
yo also loose a lot in sponsorship, tv money and prize money! the joys of playing in a graveyard :)
oh yeah and less chance of a cup run and NO europe! its a wonderfull place
MariborKev
01/12/2009, 10:12 PM
Yet did your new chairman state this would be the case?
Sometimes people make mistakes ;)
total hoofball
01/12/2009, 10:46 PM
http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Kenny39s-hands-tied.5872873.jp?
"We're also hoping for an increase in numbers attending games or at least hoping there will be no real difference in attendance numbers from last year. We want to give Stephen (Kenny) a budget to work with within the next few days.
Scary, looks like a big shock is in store for the honchos in charge of Derry mk2 of the realities of the graveyard
A new franchise evolved from a club with a disasterous ending, a lower league that is horrible to watch, recession and hopes there will be no change in average attendances (2,436 in 2009) or even an increase!
Ok two home matches against Finn Harps should bring out a decent crowd but they will be lucky if they get 1,500 punters in for the remaining 15 matches of lumping the ball into the corner flag that is the First Division
Dillonman
01/12/2009, 10:52 PM
A winning team will attract people through the gates, its always the case, if ye get off to a bad start then expect to see less coming through the gates but if ye can keep a few of the current squad aswell as adding some decent lower league standard players then ye should be alright
dcfcsteve
02/12/2009, 2:04 AM
A new franchise evolved from a club with a disasterous ending, a lower league that is horrible to watch, recession and hopes there will be no change in average attendances (2,436 in 2009) or even an increase!
Ok two home matches against Finn Harps should bring out a decent crowd but they will be lucky if they get 1,500 punters in for the remaining 15 matches of lumping the ball into the corner flag that is the First Division
Was it not stated that a 50% drop in attendances was expected - to a figure of about 1,300 ?
MariborKev
02/12/2009, 8:33 AM
Steve
Remember we have over 300 season tickets already sold, which is a massive hit in revenue as well.
The more digging goes on under what happened under the last regime, the worse it gets.
Mr_Parker
02/12/2009, 9:36 AM
Steve
Remember we have over 300 season tickets already sold, which is a massive hit in revenue as well.
The more digging goes on under what happened under the last regime, the worse it gets.
Are you saying that those tickets will have to be honored?
MariborKev
02/12/2009, 10:08 AM
No,
I am not saying that at all;)
I am saying that if they are honoured, either partially or fully(legal issues notwithstanding)
- It will be huge revenue hole
If they are not honoured, most of those people will walk away from the club
- It will be a huge hole in revenue
Flexy
02/12/2009, 10:41 AM
No,
I am not saying that at all;)
I am saying that if they are honoured, either partially or fully(legal issues notwithstanding)
- It will be huge revenue hole
If they are not honoured, most of those people will walk away from the club
- It will be a huge hole in revenue
Kev wot would you do in the situation if you were the chairman. If I was Paul Diamond Id refund the fans for the loyality they have shown to the club, it will risk them walking away from the club for good. Small price to pay for future season ticket sales.
marinobohs
02/12/2009, 11:33 AM
Kev wot would you do in the situation if you were the chairman. If I was Paul Diamond Id refund the fans for the loyality they have shown to the club, it will risk them walking away from the club for good. Small price to pay for future season ticket sales.
At a time where every penny will be vital this may be luxury not open to the club (otherwise 300 potential paying customers disappear for the season).Hopefully they will be able to come to some sort of deal with these fans to reflect the loyalty shown - heavily discounted rate or some similar arrangement.
Surprised if wages budget will be even 50% of last season to be honest. Most Prem sides are cutting by amounts not far off 50% and Dery have the added handicap of 1st Division football.
garyderry
02/12/2009, 1:05 PM
Kev wot would you do in the situation if you were the chairman. If I was Paul Diamond Id refund the fans for the loyality they have shown to the club, it will risk them walking away from the club for good. Small price to pay for future season ticket sales.
It may not be a choice, there are legalities in the whole mess
And there was a mention of the possibility of the likes of McGinn moving to wolves,
the old company getting a percentage of that money, which would go towards the debts (including those season ticket sales)
Schumi
02/12/2009, 1:23 PM
Surely all that money would be swallowed up long before it got to paying off people who bought season tickets. Would there be an issue with the new company honouring some old debts but not others?
dcfcsteve
02/12/2009, 3:41 PM
Kev wot would you do in the situation if you were the chairman. If I was Paul Diamond Id refund the fans for the loyality they have shown to the club, it will risk them walking away from the club for good. Small price to pay for future season ticket sales.
Kev has a much better inside ear than me, but here's the type of solution I'd look at.
The Club can't afford to go without the income from 300 paying fans. Assuming we charge £10 an adult ticket for games next year, assuming 22 home season ticket games a year, and assuming for the sake of maths that all 300 pre-sales were to adults, honouring those season tickets in full would potentially see a drop in gross gate income of £66,000. Not to be sniffed at.
At the sametime, however, it would be madness to do nothing for the 'Brandywell 300', as it would wind-up a lot of them and other fans. A substantial number of those would probably drift away from the club in anger, which would have a massive impact on future club revenues. It would also mean that the gross loss in honouring the tickets is in reality much lower than £66k.
So I would propose DCFC come up with a happy half-way point.
The club needs to try to do right by the fans here, so I'd suggest they bring out a special season ticket for those 300. That ticket would cost half of the cost of an ordinary ticket for next year.That would be justified on the grounds that the club wants to be fair to the fans, but also will struggle without the revenue. However - I'd also ensure that the ticket came loaded with extras. Not draws that one or two people may win but something potentially for everyone (in the audience), and a proper 'money can't buy' idea.
It could be a special '300 club' limited event for them and their families at some point in the season at which players would be present. It could be a Free City shirt, travel on the team bus to an away game at some pointin the season. or access to the VIP Glentoran stand for any that would be interested.
Whatever the 'extra' the principle should be to bring in some money from these fans in a way that they still got cheaper access than everyone else and were then rewarded with a 'money can't buy' initiative that would hopefully keep them happy. And ideally such inititaives would have no real or significant incremental cost to the club.
If the right offer was put together and it was explained to fans that the new club would really suffer if it didn't get a penny from the 300, then I would hope that most of them would be happy to sign-up.
It would also get round any suggestion of the new club honouring the old club's debts, as all fans will still have to pay for a ticket.
Straightstory
02/12/2009, 4:11 PM
Scary, looks like a big shock is in store for the honchos in charge of Derry mk2 of the realities of the graveyard
A new franchise evolved from a club with a disasterous ending, a lower league that is horrible to watch, recession and hopes there will be no change in average attendances (2,436 in 2009) or even an increase!
Ok two home matches against Finn Harps should bring out a decent crowd but they will be lucky if they get 1,500 punters in for the remaining 15 matches of lumping the ball into the corner flag that is the First Division
That's a ballsy post with attitude! I like your name too!
culloty82
03/12/2009, 7:39 AM
When are the licences being decided?
Celdrog
03/12/2009, 8:45 AM
Would there be an issue with the new company honouring some old debts but not others?Tom Coughlan managed it quite well this season, so from an FAI position, probably not
MariborKev
03/12/2009, 9:35 AM
Schumi: There would be an issue.
Schumi
03/12/2009, 4:04 PM
Tom Coughlan managed it quite well this season, so from an FAI position, probably not
If "Tom Coughlan did it" is your excuse, you're in trouble already I think!
Derry ST had a meeting tonight. Quote from a synopsis on their forum (new chairman spoke)
We will also pending a successful license application be allowed to continue in setanta cup next season.
Seems strange to me.
Incredible if true. Almost as if the FAI want to encourage the insane and unethical behaviour that has gone on at Derry City in the last few years.
dcfcsteve
06/12/2009, 10:25 PM
Incredible if true. Almost as if the FAI want to encourage the insane and unethical behaviour that has gone on at Derry City in the last few years.
Calm down - it's merely a reference to the fact that the Setanta cup from the season just finished is spilling over into next season.
We qualified to play in the 2009 Setanta Cup as a result of our 2008 performances. It's not our fault the bloody thing is still being played in 2010, and it would cause problems for the Setanta Cup itself to lose a team half way through the series.
tiktok
06/12/2009, 10:31 PM
We qualified to play in the 2009 Setanta Cup as a result of our 2008 performances. It's not our fault the bloody thing is still being played in 2010, and it would cause problems for the Setanta Cup itself to lose a team half way through the series.
You're completely wrong there I'm afraid and I think you're not picking up why Mr.A is rightly amazed.
The 'New Derry City' didn't qualify for anything. The club that qualified in 2008 doesn't exist today. There's no way an entirely new entity should be allowed to parachute into a competition already in progress, it's more FAI fudging and frankly, a load of ****ing toss!
Still, there are positives, when Coughlan eventually goes bang at Cork City, the FAI are setting themselves a ridiculous precedent that Cork City supporters can beat them over the heads with.
OneRedArmy
06/12/2009, 11:19 PM
FWIW I wish we didn't have to play in the Setanta. It's hardly a wonderful reward...
Acornvilla
06/12/2009, 11:23 PM
FWIW I wish we didn't have to play in the Setanta. It's hardly a wonderful reward...
moneys good! someone remind this man there is a recession happening:rolleyes:
OneRedArmy
07/12/2009, 7:36 AM
moneys good! someone remind this man there is a recession happening:rolleyes:
Old Chinese proverb say "Ignore man who support 5 teams, he talk through back passage".
Sam_Heggy
07/12/2009, 8:11 AM
Bloody disgrace if they are allowed to continue in the Setanta Cup, the FAI really haven't covered themselves in glory once again.
P.S. Derry are bombarding our young promising players with phone calls and offers of much bigger money than they are on at Harps. We purely can not compete with their wage offers and it makes me sick to my stomach.
Kenny wouldn't have even looked twice at these players at the start of last season.
Again the clubs that try to pay off their debts suffer :mad:
Mr_Parker
07/12/2009, 8:15 AM
Bloody disgrace if they are allowed to continue in the Setanta Cup, the FAI really haven't covered themselves in glory once again.
P.S. Derry are bombarding our young promising players with phone calls and offers of much bigger money than they are on at Harps. We purely can not compete with their wage offers and it makes me sick to my stomach.
Kenny wouldn't have even looked twice at these players at the start of last season.
Again the clubs that try to pay off their debts suffer :mad:
Tapping up? Not an auspicious start to this, "we won't make the same mistakes as the last lot" club, is it? :rolleyes:
FWIW I wish we didn't have to play in the Setanta. It's hardly a wonderful reward...
A home game to come against Linfield certainly represents a reward since you'll probably pack out the place.
Getting out of the vast majority of your debts (all except the ones owed to football clubs and maybe the season tickets it would seem) in return for relegation represents a deal that the vast majority of clubs would kill for, so it does seem that DCFC's actions are being rewarded rather than sanctioned. One wonders how the FAI can take a strong line with CCFC after that.
Mr P- don't think it would count as tapping up in terms of the rules in this case as the players would only have been on amateur contracts.
Ronnie
07/12/2009, 8:55 AM
I'll say it again, rewarded for not investing in infrastructure!
Acornvilla
07/12/2009, 10:43 AM
Old Chinese proverb say "Ignore man who support 5 teams, he talk through back passage".
why so sir? the town comes first is it a crime to take an intrest in other leagues for me following a few teams makes football more intresting..,
Dont tell me the new derry wouldnt mind a few extra pound for their troubles?
osarusan
07/12/2009, 10:53 AM
Its got nothing to do with the FAI. Its a private competetion that they qualified for thats halfway through.The point is that most people (including Derry fans?) are too sure if "they" are the same Derry as now. tiktok certainly doesn't think so.
OneRedArmy
07/12/2009, 11:14 AM
Getting out of the vast majority of your debts (all except the ones owed to football clubs and maybe the season tickets it would seem) in return for relegation represents a deal that the vast majority of clubs would kill for, so it does seem that DCFC's actions are being rewarded rather than sanctioned. One wonders how the FAI can take a strong line with CCFC after that.Really?!
So the vast majority of clubs (i.e. their directors, as thats what we are talking about here) would prefer to
1) go through a liquidation process
2) be disbarred from being a registered director of all their business interests, possibly for life
3) have personal guarantees be taken up and pursued individually by banks, revenue and other creditors
all so a new club they can have no legal involvement in can start again in what could well be the lowest division next season.
Get a grip ffs. Internet-forum-paranoid-delusional-conspiracy-theory-nonsense.
There's a lot more to a club than just its directors. And from a club point of view what I said was entirely accurate. Also I think a lot more people than just the directors knew exactly what was going on. Certainly this wasn't intended, but DCFC seem to be more than landing on their feet with the former board (albeit deservedly) being the patsys.
And have points 2 and 3 that you mentioned actually happened? And it's already been clarified that the A championship would continue. Now why do you get to leapfrog over it?
In any case, isn't one of the key aspects of licensing that it's meant to prevent clubs from walking away from their debt, reforming and continuing on their merry way? If you're the same club in Setanta cup terms why aren't you the same club that went into administration and hence get a points deduction?
I'm not blaming the people involved with the new DCFC for the way things seem to be panning out, obviously they'll take whatever they can get, but the FAI seem to be making a horrendous balls of this and sending a terrible message.
Mr_Parker
07/12/2009, 11:36 AM
Its got nothing to do with the FAI. Its a private competetion that they qualified for thats halfway through.
I think you should check the competition regulations. You will find that there are FAI attached compliances required for entry.
OneRedArmy
07/12/2009, 11:42 AM
There's a lot more to a club than just its directors. And from a club point of view what I said was entirely accurate.From a legal perspective there really isn't.
Also I think a lot more people than just the directors knew exactly what was going on.Again, from a company law perspective and a licensing perspective thats irrelevant. Morally, I tend to agree, although I'd disagree that "a lot more people" knew. At the Trust meeting last night the new Board articulated the difficulty they are having starting from scratch as they still don't know with any great detail what was going on last year with budgets, legal filings etc. Probably more relevant, the FAI in their infinite wisdom effectively absolved the players and manager of blame. I don't necessarily agree, but there appeared no appetite to pursue them from the FAI and thats not our fault as fans.
And have points 2 and 3 that you mentioned actually happened? .Not as yet, but the reality is that we are domiciled in a jurisdiction where company law and fitness and probity of directors and the body corporate is taken a lot more seriously than the in the Republic. Take something like the Rovers situation with the [allegedly] tippexed accounts. What were the consequences of this?
osarusan
07/12/2009, 11:46 AM
Its the same Rovers, Drogs and Cork that came through the examinership process.
I don't think that necessarily means it's the same Derry though. Even One Red Army (http://http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p=1278718&postcount=1769) is not, or was not sure.
(hyperlink not working - http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p=1278718&postcount=1769 )
If it is, then they can be allowed to play in the Setanta Cup, but they should be getting hit with a pretty hefty points deduction, shouldn't they?
If it's not, they shouldn't be allowed to play in the Setanta Cup, and they should be entering the A-league, shouldn't they?
Acornvilla
07/12/2009, 11:48 AM
I don't think that necessarily means it's the same Derry though. Even Derry fans are not sure.
If it is, then they can be allowed to play in the Setanta Cup, but they should be getting hit with a pretty hefty points deduction, shouldn't they?
If it's not, they shouldn't be allowed to play in the Setanta Cup, and they should be entering the A-league, shouldn't they?
ireland and especially the FAI donse'nt work like that:rolleyes:
osarusan
07/12/2009, 12:40 PM
I'm not disputing for a second they will not be let into the next setanta cup. I'm saying they will finish off this one. Whats the alternative? Someone replace them?Maybe you know more than I do about the mechanics of the Setanta cup, but if (and it is 'if')the current Derry city are essentially a new club (legally at least), by what right do they take the place of a now-defunct club?
dcfc_1928
07/12/2009, 12:43 PM
Does the new company mean that we are a new club? Especially if the trading name Derry City FC is transferred/sold to the new company?
Thats the bit I can't get my head around.
Maybe you know more than I do about the mechanics of the Setanta cup, but if (and it is 'if')the current Derry city are essentially a new club (legally at least), by what right do they take the place of a now-defunct club?
osarusan
07/12/2009, 12:46 PM
Does the new company mean that we are a new club? Especially if the trading name Derry City FC is transferred/sold to the new company?
Thats the bit I can't get my head around.
I have no idea. I don't think anybody on this site knows.
From a legal perspective there really isn't.
Again, from a company law perspective and a licensing perspective thats irrelevant. Morally, I tend to agree, although I'd disagree that "a lot more people" knew. At the Trust meeting last night the new Board articulated the difficulty they are having starting from scratch as they still don't know with any great detail what was going on last year with budgets, legal filings etc. Probably more relevant, the FAI in their infinite wisdom effectively absolved the players and manager of blame. I don't necessarily agree, but there appeared no appetite to pursue them from the FAI and thats not our fault as fans.
Not as yet, but the reality is that we are domiciled in a jurisdiction where company law and fitness and probity of directors and the body corporate is taken a lot more seriously than the in the Republic. Take something like the Rovers situation with the [allegedly] tippexed accounts. What were the consequences of this?
All fair points, but none of it particularly relevant to the FAI and their handling of the situation. They've repeatedly made the point that DCFC were playing according to a different set of rules to everyone else and this situation was unacceptable, yet they then proceed to leapfrog the new entity into the first division and seem to have no intention of applying the rules relating to clubs entering administration or examinership.
To me the new Derry City should either be in the A-league (because they're new) or else in D1 with a points deduction (because they're not really new and have been in administration).
harps1954
07/12/2009, 1:12 PM
Does the new company mean that we are a new club? Especially if the trading name Derry City FC is transferred/sold to the new company?
Two questions:
1. Has the trading name 'Derry City FC' been transferred or sold to the new company yet?
2. If not, under what name have the 'new-Derry City' applied for a First Division licence?
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