The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players

[thischarmingman]

From today's Irish Daily Mail


Derry warned: Your survival is at stake
By: PHILIP QUINN

CRISIS club Derry City are on the brink of demotion to the First Division as punishment for apparent anomalies in their players' contracts for the 2009 season.

The pride of the north-west, currently fourth in the Premier Division ahead of tonight's final game of the season at Dundalk, appear destined for a fall to the lower tier of Irish club football over a relative pittance compared to the £750,000 they owe creditors.

FAI chiefs met behind closed doors last night to decide on Derry's fate with John Delaney, the FAI chief executive, admitting he had 'grave concerns' for the future of the club. Fran Gavin, the League of Ireland director, warned 'the survival of the club is at stake'.

The Derry distress signals were sent out following a summit at Abbotstown on Wednesday night between senior League of Ireland figures and Derry chairman Pat McDaid, the outcome of which prompted Delaney's intervention.

Without being specific about what emerged at the meeting, Delaney outlined a bleak future for the twice league champions.

Pointedly, he did not make reference to the club's huge debts. 'If any club provide material financial information and it's subsequently proven that information is incorrect, then you have to take action. You have to be fair to the clubs who have played by the rules,' said Delaney.

'We got the May accounts earlier from Derry in the year where we noticed things weren't as good as they should have been, after which we put a transfer embargo in to make sure there was no increased spend on bringing in extra players 'I was concerned for Derry then and I'd have graver concerns after what I heard last night,' added Delaney, who said events would move fast and that a decision on Derry's future is likely today.

'We have to deal with the events of last night, which were reported to me, in a difficult manner.

'The outcome of that meeting will be determined pretty quickly. Because if we take certain sanctions, it affects the play-offs,' he added.

That remark suggests there is a distinct possibility that Bray Wanderers, who finished 10th in the Premier Division, may now play ninth-placed Drogheda United in the play-offs, while St Pat's, Sligo Rovers and Galway United could be spared Asked if Derry City would be playing in the Premier Division next season, Delaney said: 'I think their situation is grave. In what guise they survive or in what division they play in will be determined as events unfold, I don't know.

'It's up to the people who run the club to salvage it, but the ramifications of the meeting and the content which was discussed, could be quite severe.' Discrepancies in player contracts appears to be a particular area of FAI concern.

Sportsmail was told of one senior player whose contract, submitted to the FAI, had him being paid 'X' amount but that he was also being paid a separate sum on another contract.

Delaney is acutely aware of the value which Derry have brought to the League since they joined in 1985 and won't want to lose one of the biggest and best supported clubs they have.

'When Derry came into the League, they brought thousands of fans for Cup finals. I know what it means to the FAI to have Derry in the League; and I know what it means to the people of Derry too,' he said.

€8.6MWAGE BILL FOUR clubs spent €8.6million on players' wages in 2008, according to League figures released yesterday. Cork City spent most with €2.35m, ahead of Drogheda with €2.25m — both had 10 points deducted for entering examinership. St Pat's spent €2.2m and champions Bohemians €1.9m. Salaries to players made up 50 per cent of all expenditure while debts to directors and banks made up 61 per cent of all clubs' liabilities.

From next year, wages to managers and coaches will be factored into the salary cap protocol. Club's losses were down to €2.7m in 2008 while attendances in the Premier Division for 2009 are up 17 per cent.

[pineapple stu]

€8.6MWAGE BILL FOUR clubs spent €8.6million on players' wages in 2008, according to League figures released yesterday. Cork City spent most with €2.35m, ahead of Drogheda with €2.25m — both had 10 points deducted for entering examinership. St Pat's spent €2.2m and champions Bohemians €1.9m.
Takes me back - remember all the posts about which of the big four wasn't spending the most?

[MariborKev]

Sportsmail was told of one senior player whose contract, submitted to the FAI, had him being paid 'X' amount but that he was also being paid a separate sum on another contract.


That is at least one of the smoking guns which will come out.

[MariborKev]

Stu,

The trading company should be wound up, we have debts of around £600,000.

[Sam_Heggy]

Would relegation be seen as a (relatively) good outcome for Derry, given the alternative is reforming in the A League?

On a selfish note, it would be great for Harps as we would be guaranteed at least one big gate in the season in this ****hole of a division.

On another note, would Derry's relegation (rumoured) to "only" Division 1 add fuel to the fire about the rumours about the A league being done away with.

[Ezeikial]

From today's Irish Daily Mail


Derry warned: Your survival is at stake
By: PHILIP QUINN

CRISIS club Derry City are on the brink of demotion to the First Division as punishment for apparent anomalies in their players' contracts for the 2009 season.


'We got the May accounts earlier from Derry in the year where we noticed things weren't as good as they should have been, after which we put a transfer embargo in to make sure there was no increased spend on bringing in extra players 'I was concerned for Derry then and I'd have graver concerns after what I heard last night,' added Delaney, who said events would move fast and that a decision on Derry's future is likely today.

I can't recall there being any reports of a transfer embargo on Derry. Can anyone clarify if this was made public?

[pól-dcfc]

I would prefer to be ****ed out of the league completely, and have to start from the bottom, whether that be the A League or the First Division next season. We can't continue under Wellvan. There is no trust or confidence. If the board isn't cleaned out next season, I can see a lot of people simply staying at home in protest. It historically doesn't take much for a good section of our support to flee.

[pól-dcfc]

I can't recall there being any reports of a transfer embargo on Derry. Can anyone clarify if this was made public?

Don't think it was. First I've heard of it anyway.

[pól-dcfc]

Have heard Derry are relegated and Bray v Drogs will be the play offs. Was apparently on TV3. Can anyone confirm?

Surely a decision can't be made until the meeting tomoz? Relegation is too good for us.

[Finlay Harp]

If you had told me at the beginning of the season that Harps would be in a better state than Derry at the end of the season I would have told you to seek professional help! Roll on the Northwest derby next year;)

[pineapple stu]

Roll on the Northwest derby next year;)
Derry City v Finn Harps A?

[pól-dcfc]

Derry City v Finn Harps A?

There will be a fudge no doubt. A League scrapped maybe, or the FAI will somehow allow Wellvan to continue as the holding company (please god, no).

[MariborKev]

Pol,

It will be nothing to do with the FAI.

The Dungannon winding up order, the HMRC are circulating, the legal ramifications of "off the books" payments. All those will kill us long before the Licensing First Instance Committee meets.

[pineapple stu]

There will be a fudge no doubt. A League scrapped maybe, or the FAI will somehow allow Wellvan to continue as the holding company (please god, no).

If they do, that's any last shred of credibility in licencing gone.

But as Kev points out, there's at least other bodies around who'll help enforce licencing for the FAI.

[pól-dcfc]

If they do, that's any last shred of credibility in licencing gone.

But as Kev points out, there's at least other bodies around who'll help enforce licencing for the FAI.

Good. I hope that they are taken to pieces. A new club is what is needed. I'd quite like to be in the First Division rather than the A League though, but I'll be more than happy if I have a club to support next season.

Will this have personal ramifications for board members past and present? Disbarring from directorships for a period?

[Finlay Harp]

Derry City v Finn Harps A?

No I meant Finn Harps v Finn Harps A:D

[Magicme]

First division isnt as evil as some would make it out to be. Some good football, nice little grounds and of course the friendliest fans!

[Finlay Harp]

An article I read a while back that could have similarities.

http://www.worldfootballcolumns.com/2009/10/10/clubs-that-portugal-forgot-part-1-sc-farense/

[dortie]

I would prefer to be ****ed out of the league completely, and have to start from the bottom,.

Sweet Jasus ! :rolleyes:

[RonnieB]

First division isnt as evil as some would make it out to be. Some good football, nice little grounds and of course the friendliest fans!

The first division is something I wouldn't wish on anyone.

[theneutral]

Lets face it gents, the FAI wil ldo all they can to cover this up along with the other cover ups and bending of their own rules which still sees Cork and Dorgheda playing Premier football and Bohs being allowed to budget for winning the league at the start of the season.

There hasnt been a stance taken against clubs in line with there own clearly set out rules since the Shelbourne farce.
I for one can see why SHels fans would be bitter over it, its a complete joke and the FAI have made themselves a laughing stock!

Obviously if they were to action the above then Cork, Drogs, Derry and Bohs would be gone from the Top flight and replaced with clubs like Bray (now relegated) UCD, Waterford & Shels. It looks as though the FAI are trying to do all they can to keep these so called bigger/higher profile clubs in the top flight in order to sustain the fleeting interest in the league that exists amongst the minority on this island.

Like I said, a laughing stock!

Sincerest commiserations to all the hard working and loyal football fans of these clubs who have to deal with this crap from there board, and isint it refreshing to actually see a set of fans (Derry) almost to a man state that they deserve the punishments being suggested and not trying to deny the wrongs of there club through nothing but blind ignorance, i appluad you Derry fans.

[pól-dcfc]

Sweet Jasus ! :rolleyes:

What? You'd prefer to try and continue with a lame-duck holding company? How do you think we can possibly clear our debts? Why not try and make a point rather than just being sarcastic?

Tell me exactly how you expect a club with up to £750,000 debt to various creditors to put together a team to compete next season.

[pineapple stu]

Sweet Jasus ! :rolleyes:
Are you aware of the difference between "I would prefer" and "I would like"?

[ndrog]

Drogheda united fc made a balls of things theres no doubt there but you cant compare our situation with derry city .We spent millions of our own money ( directors ) and it was ground to a halt due to a corrupt planning system . We were wrong to sign players and then go into examinership , i wont argue that . But we as supporters stepped up to the plate to save our football club and only for us the club would be gone .

[dortie]

What? You'd prefer to try and continue with a lame-duck holding company? How do you think we can possibly clear our debts? Why not try and make a point rather than just being sarcastic?

Tell me exactly how you expect a club with up to £750,000 debt to various creditors to put together a team to compete next season.

No and No idea...

Not sure of the total debt myself yet, did you get a copy in the post to Scotland ?

As somebody who collected from house to house in 2000 i am fully aware of the **** we are in 'again' but that little glimmer of hope still prevails. Simply dont understand why you would prefer that outcome ?

[OneRedArmy]

Can a mod merge the two threads pls.

[EalingGreen]

I personally think the FAI would've fudged it if they could, as they haven't exactly gone searching for issues at any club, except in this case I believe someone brought something to their attention that they couldn't ignore.

The way this is developing, it's beginning to look as though this goes beyond incompetence or even recklessness by the DCFC Board - either of which the FAI might be able to fudge.

For if (stress the "if"), DCFC have been keeping two sets of books (i.e. in order to pay players more than in their "official" contracts), then the extra can only be being paid in cash, which itself can only come from (undeclared) gate receipts.

If so, would this explain why each successive rumour claims a higher overall debt figure, since the debt would rise as gates have fallen in recent weeks?

Anyhow, if it should turn out that there has been deception, even fraud involved, a mere demotion to the 1st Division by the FAI would be hard to justify as adequate, since DCFC could conceivably get promoted right back where they were after one season, as if nothing had happened.

Would those really be the sort of people (DCFC Board, that is) whom you would want at the top table of your League? If nothing else, how would the FAI look if eg HRMC closed down DCFC/Wellvan in mid-season, or disqualified, even brought charges against, Directors?

Of course, I may be guilty of adding to already exagerrated rumour, but when reliable witnesses like Maribor Kev are reporting that the debt is actually £600k, then the extent of the debt may not even be the worst of it, rather how it came about.

Which would then prompt the question, if money were being siphoned off to pay the players, was it also being siphoned off into other pockets? :eek:

[pineapple stu]

Can a mod merge the two threads pls.
Done; title changed to the new one to reflect the latest news.

[Magicme]

The first division is something I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Shhh! I am just trying to ease the pain for them, I happen to like Derry fans.

[pól-dcfc]

No and No idea...

Not sure of the total debt myself yet, did you get a copy in the post to Scotland ?

As somebody who collected from house to house in 2000 i am fully aware of the **** we are in 'again' but that little glimmer of hope still prevails. Simply dont understand why you would prefer that outcome ?

First of all - just because I am in Scotland at the moment doesn't mean I don't have access to news sources from Ireland (again with the pathetic sarcasm). Second of all, I did say "with up to £750,000 debt" - that is one figures being bandied about. It's at least £400,000 going by the general consensus, and is rising everyday through interest and the non-payment of wages.

Even if we had the most meager budget in the league, we still wouldn't make a dent in £400,000 for a number of years. If we wind up the holding company, we can start afresh, with an alternative ownership model, accountable to the fans. One of the worst things about this past few months is the lack of transparency and downright lies told by the board. Starting afresh means that we don't have to worry about the awful debt we have accrued. If we did continue in the top flight, we would probably be relegated next season anyway - our squad would not be competitive, but still have the debt. I'd rather have a few seasons in the A League and 1st Division building up sustainable income streams, to give us a chance to compete at the top level in the future.

Wellvan have basically bust us twice in the past ten years. Why should we entrust the future of the club to a company with that record? What glimmer of hope is there? You've talked about it, but not actually told us what hope we have.

[MariborKev]

Wellvan have basically bust us twice in the past ten years.

The company didn't bust us, those running it did.

I'm more than prepared to stand over my estimation of the debt as over £500k.

[pól-dcfc]

The company didn't bust us, those running it did.

Of course. The point I was trying to make was an advocation of true fan ownership, so I think the point still stands.

[EalingGreen]

Sincerest commiserations to all the hard working and loyal football fans of these clubs who have to deal with this crap from there board, and isint it refreshing to actually see a set of fans (Derry) almost to a man state that they deserve the punishments being suggested and not trying to deny the wrongs of there club through nothing but blind ignorance, i appluad you Derry fans. A good point, well worth making.

[dortie]

Shhh! I am just trying to ease the pain for them, I happen to like Derry fans.

It will be a sad day, but maybe the best outcome we can hope for. Its been a long long time since i stood freezing with my uncle at EMFA.

[MariborKev]

Pol,

Those running it were "fans", well for the most part.

Fans can bust a club as badly as anyone else.

[White Horse]

Drogheda united fc made a balls of things theres no doubt there but you cant compare our situation with derry city .We spent millions of our own money ( directors ) and it was ground to a halt due to a corrupt planning system . We were wrong to sign players and then go into examinership , i wont argue that . But we as supporters stepped up to the plate to save our football club and only for us the club would be gone .

I think you'll find that the taxpayer picked up quite a bit of the tab.

[dortie]

The company didn't bust us, those running it did.

.

Dont forget about those who failed to meet their objectives 'on the pitch' !
The fact we had an assistant Manager (for a long stint) and massive backroom staff didnt help either.

I am really interested in Salarys if everything is made public.

[Magicme]

It will be a sad day, but maybe the best outcome we can hope for. Its been a long long time since i stood freezing with my uncle at EMFA.

It did Shels and Shamrock Rovers the world of good, they learned good lessons down here and its better to travel to ****S and the Flansiro than have no games at all.

[pól-dcfc]

Pol,

Those running it were "fans", well for the most part.

Fans can bust a club as badly as anyone else.

Obviously. But do you not agree that a membership set up is the way forward for a reconstituted Derry club?

[OneRedArmy]

Which would then prompt the question, if money were being siphoned off to pay the players, was it also being siphoned off into other pockets? :eek:
On the basis those "other pockets" are in for personal guarantees themselves and will lose a fairly sizeable amount on wind up I'd guess no.

Lets also not claim under the table payments are something new in Irish football, either North or South. Doesn't make it right, but anyone who knows football knows its rife.

[pól-dcfc]

Dont forget about those who failed to meet their objectives 'on the pitch' !
The fact we had an assistant Manager (for a long stint) and massive backroom staff didnt help either.

I am really interested in Salarys if everything is made public.

You can never bank on success though. It just isn't feasible. The players have been playing without pay for nine weeks now. Before that we were probably under-performing considering our wage 'budget'. The size of that 'budget' isn't the players' or the backroom staff's concern.

[EalingGreen]

On the basis those "other pockets" are in for personal guarantees themselves and will lose a fairly sizeable amount on wind up I'd guess no.I'd guess that if cash payments were being made to players, the Directors were persuading (deluding?) themselves that it was justified from the on-field success etc which would follow

From there, it is a small step to concluding that if the players deserve it for their efforts on the field, then we deserve it for our "efforts" (guarantees etc).

In which case, the loss of those guarantees should be the minimum sanction applied (imo).



Lets also not claim under the table payments are something new in Irish football, either North or South.And let's not impugn other posters for claims they have never actually made.




Doesn't make it right, but anyone who knows football knows its rife.Or for not "knowing football", for that matter...

[Hairy Bowsie]

I read somewhere that Derrys fate would be decided today, is that correct?

[geysir]

Back on topic. The bad times for clubs should be on the field - not getting yourself in such a hole that you have to flog your assets to cover your operarting costs. There's only so many times a league ground can be sold/mortgaged.

Live within our means. It really is that simple....

Anyway, it is not prudent for a club to own its ground.

That asset should be in trust to be used and maintained by the club, free from risk (due to the boards destructive financial activities) and not be possible to be used as collateral for a loan.

[Mr A]

Lets also not claim under the table payments are something new in Irish football, either North or South.

Indeed. There are almost certainly some clubs feeling very nervous indeed about the idea of the FAI/ tax authorities looking at this issue more closely.

The sooner this happens the better, one step closer to a level playing field for all.

[dortie]

The size of that 'budget' isn't the players' or the backroom staff's concern.

I agree, i also think the board made a critical error in believing that Kenny and the current squad were capable of winning the title. Thats what the budget was based on. They lost the gamble.

[pól-dcfc]

I agree, i also think the board made a critical error in believing that Kenny and the current squad were capable of winning the title. Thats what the budget was based on. They lost the gamble.

True. And even if we had won the league this season and last season - we'd still be up the left. Some serious soul-searching needs to be done. If some of the dodgier dealings that are being touted are true, could individual board members face prosecution?

[Mr A]

True. And even if we had won the league this season and last season - we'd still be up the left. Some serious soul-searching needs to be done. If some of the dodgier dealings that are being touted are true, could individual board members face prosecution?

I was already wondering about that. Certainly it could have implications for their eligibility to be directors of companies.

[EalingGreen]

I agree, i also think the board made a critical error in believing that Kenny and the current squad were capable of winning the title. Thats what the budget was based on. They lost the gamble.But if the debt is so high as is now being reported, would winning the League have brought in enough revenue to have covered it?

What I cannot understand is, even with under-the-counter payments to players, how can the debt be so high?

After all, over the last two seasons the club has had good crowds, good Cup and European runs, decent League prize money, plus £400k(?) for McCourt and McGinn.

Just how much extra can they have been paying the players? :confused:

[Mr A]

Derry Journal (http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Dire-straits.5802593.jp):


IF DERRY City Football Club received a gift of £1 million this morning, it still would not be enough to secure the "Candy Stripes" status in the top flight of League of Ireland football, the "Journal" can reveal this morning.

In short, Derry City could face automatic relegation to the League of Ireland First Division this weekend, depending on the outcome of a high powered meeting of the FAI in Abbotstown last night.

It's understood that last night's meeting, which involved the FAI's Chief Executive Officer, John Delaney (pictured right), the FAI Compliance Officer, Padraig Smith and the Director of the League of Ireland, Fran Gavin, was arranged to discuss not only the current financial situation at the Brandywell club, but also to consider information which has been brought to the attention of F.A.I.