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pineapple stu
10/12/2009, 3:44 PM
Derry sign their first four players. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/8406521.stm)

Don't know how significant they were last term?
Doomofman
10/12/2009, 4:36 PM
Derry sign their first four players. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/8406521.stm)

Don't know how significant they were last term?

They now have a bigger squad then Pats.. :(
brendy_éire
10/12/2009, 4:47 PM
Derry sign their first four players. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/8406521.stm)

Don't know how significant they were last term?

Shane McEleney, James McClean and Davy McDaid started that season in the A side, but gradually became more of a fixture in the senior squad. They all look like decent prospects.
Patrick McEleney has come back from Sunderland, was playing in their reserves.
Sam_Heggy
10/12/2009, 4:52 PM
Sam, if you's get two home games against us I'm sure your board will be delighted although your fans might not be when the enevitable happens. ;)

We will be delighted with 2 home games, but, if it's just one then we will have another b!tch and moanfest about that. ;)

As for the Inevitable, is that when Kenny throws the toys out of the pram demanding bigger budgets and hotels for all away trips? :p
OneRedArmy
10/12/2009, 4:56 PM
Derry sign their first four players. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/8406521.stm)

Don't know how significant they were last term?James was a regular for the second half of the season, the others not so much. But young, hungry, local lads are exactly the type of player we should be signing. Geography, tax, and currency differences mean we really shouldn't expect to compete for top class players from Dublin and beyond.
Martinho II
10/12/2009, 5:31 PM
Shane McEleney, James McClean and Davy McDaid started that season in the A side, but gradually became more of a fixture in the senior squad. They all look like decent prospects.
Patrick McEleney has come back from Sunderland, was playing in their reserves.


wasnt Davy McDaid on loan with Sligo Rovers before???:confused:
dancinpants
10/12/2009, 5:39 PM
Young McDaid made a few appearances toward the end of the season. Scored a goal in three of the last four matces.
marty
10/12/2009, 6:28 PM
Just to verify I believe the Cobh budget was around the 3000 mark for the playing staff,you dont need a big budget in the first division to do well as proven by Cobh and most recently UCD
harps1954
10/12/2009, 7:15 PM
McDaid spent the first half of last season on loan at Harps. Scored twice I think.
MariborKev
10/12/2009, 9:46 PM
That will be a very decent budget in the First Divison in fairness.

As our chairman said, we may not get promoted but we will pay our creditors.
sligoman
10/12/2009, 10:01 PM
wasnt Davy McDaid on loan with Sligo Rovers before???:confused:He was Marty. In 2008, mostly came off the bench for us, scored one goal Vs. Cobh.
Mayo Red
10/12/2009, 10:10 PM
He was Marty. In 2008, mostly came off the bench for us, scored one goal Vs. Cobh.

Looked a decent enough prospect too any time I saw him play.
VinnyDCFC
11/12/2009, 12:12 AM
4 great signings to be honest

James decided to stay at home for now despite interest from across the water, Shane has been/ is still being watched by Celtic and others, his brother we know all about and Davy McDaid scored 3 in 3 games towards the end of that mad season of ours

Great news (pending a successful application of course)
Predator
11/12/2009, 1:20 PM
Do any of you know what the deal is with Patrick McEleney? Why did he leave Sunderland so early into his career??
OneRedArmy
11/12/2009, 2:18 PM
http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Threat-to-City-image-brought.5904802.jp

Informative article. The truth always comes out in the end and it doesn't look pretty...
osarusan
11/12/2009, 3:57 PM
http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Threat-to-City-image-brought.5904802.jp

Informative article. The truth always comes out in the end and it doesn't look pretty...


Very informative and very honest. Barrett (I'd never heard of him until I read it) comes across very well.
twoenz
11/12/2009, 6:28 PM
http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Threat-to-City-image-brought.5904802.jp

Informative article. The truth always comes out in the end and it doesn't look pretty...


The only worrying thing is what happens when people start to look for glory.

The sun looks like you could fly there, even though we know better.
Mr_Parker
11/12/2009, 7:10 PM
Maybe now that he has had time to do the interview he will find time to lift the phone to the other Irish League clubs owed money.
MariborKev
11/12/2009, 7:23 PM
Maybe now that he has had time to do the interview he will find time to lift the phone to the other Irish League clubs owed money.

Do they know who they owe and how much?
Mr_Parker
11/12/2009, 8:22 PM
Do they know who they owe and how much?

If they have been speaking with the FAI, then yes they should.
VinnyDCFC
11/12/2009, 9:06 PM
If they have been speaking with the FAI, then yes they should.

DCFC have spoken with Linfield this week already....

Cliftonville raised the 'Celtic money' with the FAI but the Wellvan administrator, when asked about it on Monday night, said that all he knew about this was whatever has been mentioned in the press etc.
This was going by the records he is holding.

It seems to me that the 'Celtic deal' may have been a verbal agreement but I'm sure that something will be sorted.
Mr_Parker
11/12/2009, 9:56 PM
DCFC have spoken with Linfield this week already....

Cliftonville raised the 'Celtic money' with the FAI but the Wellvan administrator, when asked about it on Monday night, said that all he knew about this was whatever has been mentioned in the press etc.
This was going by the records he is holding.

It seems to me that the 'Celtic deal' may have been a verbal agreement but I'm sure that something will be sorted.

No it is a written one. Sounds like the Administrator is out of the loop. I am sure the FAI have copied it to or notified the relevant parties.
brendy_éire
11/12/2009, 10:05 PM
No it is a written one. Sounds like the Administrator is out of the loop.

He really should be in the loop so.

Personally, I don't really get the idea behind agreeing to pay expenses for a friendly that Celtic contractually had to fill.
It's been said before, but the team they sent over was a joke, and the board was only right telling them to feck off.
I honestly don't think Wellvan should be expected to pay for what Celtic sent over, but how about taking that friendly Wellvan are owed? Ye're more than welcome to it.
Mr_Parker
11/12/2009, 10:15 PM
He really should be in the loop so.


Sure don't all Derry fans keep telling us that it is the same Derry City. Why would he need to know. :rolleyes: :)



Personally, I don't really get the idea behind agreeing to pay expenses for a friendly that Celtic contractually had to fill.
Are you sure that this was the the contracted game or the actions of those desperate for income taking a chance which backfired.



I honestly don't think Wellvan should be expected to pay for what Celtic sent over, but how about taking that friendly Wellvan are owed? Ye're more than welcome to it.



I honestly don't think Wellvan should be expected to pay for what Celtic sent over, but how about taking that friendly Wellvan are owed? Ye're more than welcome to it. Don't you just love the way that it is "Wellvan" when it suits one arguement and "Derry City" on others. :rolleyes:

As for 'their' friendly, I'm sure Cliftonville can deal with Celtic without such 'help.'
brendy_éire
11/12/2009, 11:09 PM
Sure don't all Derry fans keep telling us that it is the same Derry City.

Do we?


Are you sure that this was the the contracted game or the actions of those desperate for income taking a chance which backfired.

It was the contracted game.


Don't you just love the way that it is "Wellvan" when it suits one arguement and "Derry City" on others. :rolleyes:

When did I say this?


As for 'their' friendly, I'm sure Cliftonville can deal with Celtic without such 'help.'

Work away. Though I don't see the attraction in playing against a Celtic squad made up of 17 year olds.

Obviously the adminstrator doesn't know much about any deal with Cliftonville, so just forward whatever written deals you have to him (don't just trust the FAI to do it, they're not terribly reliable).
If there's any sort of debt owed, it's owed by Wellvan. If our new board want to sort something with Cliftonville seperately that's their decision, but I wouldn't be happy about it.
No-one should have to pay for what Celtic sent over.
VinnyDCFC
11/12/2009, 11:30 PM
No it is a written one. Sounds like the Administrator is out of the loop. I am sure the FAI have copied it to or notified the relevant parties.

It is? Thanks

I hope so and then this can be finally sorted as well

PS: I'd love to see the written agreement, obviously a very last minute one and hardly part of the original deal for the Celtic friendlies v Derry City FC?
Nedser
13/12/2009, 7:02 AM
No-one should have to pay for what Celtic sent over.

This has been said before by numerous people, but obviously it needs to be said again. DCFC knowingly arranged the friendly for an international weekend, when Celtic weren't going to have access to the vast majority of their squad. Everyone knew from the start that it was going to be "Celtic" in name only.

It's laughable that the DCFC board tried to make out that this only dawned on them 48 hours before the game. The only thing that dawned on them 48 hours before the game was that hardly anyone was going to turn up.

I don't know if DCFC had an agreement with Cliftonville, but if they did they should honour it.
Mr_Parker
14/12/2009, 11:56 AM
This has been said before by numerous people, but obviously it needs to be said again. DCFC knowingly arranged the friendly for an international weekend, when Celtic weren't going to have access to the vast majority of their squad. Everyone knew from the start that it was going to be "Celtic" in name only.

It's laughable that the DCFC board tried to make out that this only dawned on them 48 hours before the game. The only thing that dawned on them 48 hours before the game was that hardly anyone was going to turn up.

I don't know if DCFC had an agreement with Cliftonville, but if they did they should honour it.

For the record they did have a written agreement.
Sam_Heggy
14/12/2009, 12:10 PM
For the record they did have a written agreement.

Sorry folks but I think it's safe to say that this topic (Celtic friendly, written agreement or not) is well and truely covered and it's really only going round in circles.
If there is a written agreement then Derry will have to cover it, if there isn't then t.s.

Now I don't know if it's been mentioned before but, It's an absolute and total disgrace that Derry are allowed to enter the first division with no points deduction and no obligation to host a Monkey Knife Fight Organisation of Ireland (MKFOI for short) event in the Brandywell.
brendy_éire
14/12/2009, 12:24 PM
Now I don't know if it's been mentioned before but, It's an absolute and total disgrace that Derry are allowed to enter the first division with no points deduction and no obligation to host a Monkey Knife Fight Organisation of Ireland (MKFOI for short) event in the Brandywell.

Don't think you have mentioned that before, no.
Sam_Heggy
14/12/2009, 12:41 PM
Don't think you have mentioned that before, no.

I'm delighted then that I got that off my chest, I thought it might have gone un-noticed.
tiktok
14/12/2009, 1:28 PM
Now I don't know if it's been mentioned before but, It's an absolute and total disgrace that Derry are allowed to enter the first division with no points deduction and no obligation to host a Monkey Knife Fight Organisation of Ireland (MKFOI for short) event in the Brandywell.

On the latter part they can't.

Monkey Knife Fights in the North are governed by the Royal Society for Primate Fencing and I think we're all aware of the issues they've with us since the MKFOI affiliated with the "Société Européenne du combat de couteau de singe" back in 2005.

Hard to believe that a link up with PG tips and one poorly thought out advertising campaign nearly brought the entire sport to it's knees.
CSFShels
15/12/2009, 6:14 PM
It really is a disgrace though. A League at best, personally I'd have shipped up them back up north whether they liked it or not, after blatant cheating.
OneRedArmy
15/12/2009, 6:58 PM
It really is a disgrace though. A League at best, personally I'd have shipped up them back up north whether they liked it or not, after blatant cheating.Let he who is without sin and all that.

We're effectively getting the same sanction as Shels for what was a very similar offence.
John83
15/12/2009, 7:06 PM
Let he who is without sin and all that.
It really is a disgrace though. A League at best, personally I'd have shipped up them back up north whether they liked it or not, after blatant cheating.

[;) You kind of walked into that one :p]


We're effectively getting the same sanction as Shels for what was a very similar offence.Shels hit a cash-flow brick wall and couldn't pay their wages. Morality regarding wage inflation and unsustainability aside, they didn't do any more than that.

Derry lied about their wage bill (equivalent, at least in terms of intent to avoid licensing issues, to Shams forging their accounts - for which their punishment amounted to relegation), racked up a substantial debt (against effectively no assets), have legally ducked out of that debt (whether they chose to repay them or not), and couldn't pay their wages.

Not the same, ORA. Defend the punishment as fair if you like, but don't say it's the same.
OneRedArmy
15/12/2009, 7:13 PM
Shels hit a cash-flow brick wall and couldn't pay their wages. Morality regarding wage inflation and unsustainability aside, they didn't do any more than that.If you really believe that you're a bigger fool that I thought.
Flexy
15/12/2009, 7:40 PM
[QUOTE=John83;1293696]It really is a disgrace though. A League at best, personally I'd have shipped up them back up north whether they liked it or not, after blatant cheating.

What you have to remember student boy probably before you were born Derry were keeping alot of clubs in business and keeping the towns and cities they were playing in on a sunday in business. Derry were caught and punished rightly but dont come on here and say we shouldnt be in the league. Wot you have to remember is that the LoI woz dying of death before Derry came into the league and only them kept clubs afloat.
higgins
15/12/2009, 8:11 PM
We're effectively getting the same sanction as Shels for what was a very similar offence.

Are you joking ?

When you have the time Id like to hear why the two cases are similar.
corkharps
15/12/2009, 10:02 PM
[QUOTE=John83;1293696]It really is a disgrace though. A League at best, personally I'd have shipped up them back up north whether they liked it or not, after blatant cheating.

What you have to remember student boy probably before you were born Derry were keeping alot of clubs in business and keeping the towns and cities they were playing in on a sunday in business. Derry were caught and punished rightly but dont come on here and say we shouldnt be in the league. Wot you have to remember is that the LoI woz dying of death before Derry came into the league and only them kept clubs afloat.

And the veil slips!!!!!!!:rolleyes:
John83
15/12/2009, 10:07 PM
If you really believe that you're a bigger fool that I thought.
Feel free to enlighten me so that everyone else can think me a fool. I have no illusions about Shels being whiter than white, but what I wrote is all I can recall them having been punished for.



It really is a disgrace though. A League at best, personally I'd have shipped up them back up north whether they liked it or not, after blatant cheating.

What you have to remember student boy probably before you were born Derry were keeping alot of clubs in business and keeping the towns and cities they were playing in on a sunday in business. Derry were caught and punished rightly but dont come on here and say we shouldnt be in the league. Wot you have to remember is that the LoI woz dying of death before Derry came into the league and only them kept clubs afloat.
Before you go calling names, you might pause long enough to notice that I was simply repeating CSFShels' post to tease ORA. Teasing he rose to rather magnificently.

Then you might pause again, this time long enough to write something vaguely coherent.

Given how clearly I flagged it, I feel like I might take a page from ORA's book and call you "a bigger fool that I thought". However, that would be a little unfair: I'd no opinion on the matter previously.
OneRedArmy
15/12/2009, 10:38 PM
Shels hit a cash-flow brick wall and couldn't pay their wages. Morality regarding wage inflation and unsustainability aside, they didn't do any more than that.


Feel free to enlighten me so that everyone else can think me a fool. I have no illusions about Shels being whiter than white, but what I wrote is all I can recall them having been punished for. I referred specifically to the first quote above. You have said that in your view Shels didn't do any more than not pay players. And I based my response on that.

As for what they were punished for, I honestly can't remember what was contained in the public release of the First Instance Committee findings and what wasn't. But I do remember three winding up orders during that season which followed a Revenue special investigation into a number of clubs, which amongst other things included issues such as off-book wage payments and the like.
John83
15/12/2009, 11:22 PM
I referred specifically to the first quote above. You have said that in your view Shels didn't do any more than not pay players. And I based my response on that.

As for what they were punished for, I honestly can't remember what was contained in the public release of the First Instance Committee findings and what wasn't. But I do remember three winding up orders during that season which followed a Revenue special investigation into a number of clubs, which amongst other things included issues such as off-book wage payments and the like.
The winding up orders were over cash flow, as I said. There's many a thread more to be said about it, but that's what it boils down to. Derry, as I said, ran up reckless debts against no asset. I consider that to be more serious.

Derry have been unambiguously shown to have deliberately cheated. I have a vague recollection of that investigation too, but in the absence of something further having come from it, a vaguely libellous implication of tax fraud doesn't carry much weight with me. Regardless, Derry were punished for this cheating. Shels were relegated over the wages issue.

Before another Derry fan hops on me, all of this is simply justifying an earlier post of mine which dismissed ORA's suggestion that Shels' crime and punishment were equivalent.
OneRedArmy
15/12/2009, 11:43 PM
The winding up orders were over cash flow, as I said.No they weren't. They were over a series of unpaid tax bills.

I have a vague recollection of that investigation too, but in the absence of something further having come from it, a vaguely libellous implication of tax fraud doesn't carry much weight with me.See my earlier comment that you took some offence to.
pineapple stu
16/12/2009, 8:31 AM
I think ORA's right, John. Shels' dodgy dealings were what sparked the whole LoI revenue audit thing. The amounts they forfeited on were on the final settlement on that.
tiktok
16/12/2009, 8:49 AM
What you have to remember student boy probably before you were born Derry were keeping alot of clubs in business and keeping the towns and cities they were playing in on a sunday in business.

I think you might be slightly overstating the effect that a single noon kick-off on a March Sunday had on the economy of Cork.
John83
16/12/2009, 11:56 AM
I think ORA's right, John. Shels' dodgy dealings were what sparked the whole LoI revenue audit thing. The amounts they forfeited on were on the final settlement on that.
Sorry, just clarify: they defaulted on the last payment of debt they'd accumulated to the Revenue, or tax they were found out to owe after an investigation?
pineapple stu
16/12/2009, 12:04 PM
I don't know for sure obviously. There was an amount they were paying to Revenue on instalments; my best guess is that it would have been a mixture of the settlement and the outstanding month-to-month balance. However, Shels were explicitly selected for a Revenue Audit and did incur a settlement arising from that, which resulted in every league club being audited. I think - though stand to be corrected - that the settlement related to cash payments to players.
Macy
16/12/2009, 1:11 PM
My recollection was that it was the Rovers examinership that sparked the revenue audits, and the main issue uncovered by those audits wasn't cash payments but wages being paid as expenses*.

*Obviously, Revenue never extended that out to sacred cow sports like the GAA, where this practice remains rife.
pineapple stu
16/12/2009, 1:25 PM
If so, I stand corrected. I think Shels' audit was particularly problematic though.
marinobohs
16/12/2009, 2:02 PM
My recollection was that it was the Rovers examinership that sparked the revenue audits, and the main issue uncovered by those audits wasn't cash payments but wages being paid as expenses*.

*Obviously, Revenue never extended that out to sacred cow sports like the GAA, where this practice remains rife.

Both Shels and Rovers cases led to heightened interest from Revenue in the LOI (for years they were aware of the cash-in-hand regimes but turned a blind eye). Where Shels was especially problematic was the large sums involved (alledgedly more paid in cash than in normal).
Interestingly I have it on very good authority that a former club CEO went to Revenue and reported "illegal payments" at two competitor clubs and requested they investigate the matter.