The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players

[SMorgan]

..
Either way, the IFA was unable to prevent DCFC from entering the LOI in 1985, since for security reasons etc it was neither safe for DCFC to stage IL games at the Brandywell, nor was it reasonable to expect them to play their "home" IL games away from Derry.


Just to set you right on the historical basis to Derry City being in the LOI. There were no security reasons why DC could not have gone back to the IL. During the 80s, the then RUC, make it clear that Derry City could play IL football in the Brandywell. It was the powers to be in Windsor Park that used security issues to stop it. It's also not right to say that the IL couldn't have prevented DC joining the LOI. They could and indeed it was your very own Mr. Crosson, who was the then chairman of the Irish League, that allowed DC to join the LOI. This was agreed at an inter-league meeting that took place in Oriel Park, Dundalk in 1984.

[OneRedArmy]

I don't recall that the IFA disputed or wanted to prevent Derry being able to play in the LOI but stated they would have no objections at that time so I don't think Uefa had to rule on it as such.


And here is a wee nugget fromthe IFA Articles of Association by which Derry City are bound...

Article 3

12.
(a) A member may not seek directly or indirectly to transfer its Membership of the AssociationThe UEFA exemption is super-equivalent to this.

Which I thought was fairly obvious?!

[ifk101]

And here is a wee nugget fromthe IFA Articles of Association by which Derry City are bound...

Article 3

12.
(a) A member may not seek directly or indirectly to transfer its Membership of the Association

Does that not make LOI clubs members of the IFA? :D For example, Bohs were members of the IFA first before "transferring" to the League of Ireland.

[Mr A]

I think the point is that if the ownership of DCFC changes then the IFA membership can't move with that transaction- presumably DCFC would have to reapply.

[OneRedArmy]

I think the point is that if the ownership of DCFC changes then the IFA membership can't move with that transaction- presumably DCFC would have to reapply.

It's unclear at best.

[dcfcsteve]

I don't recall that the IFA disputed or wanted to prevent Derry being able to play in the LOI but stated they would have no objections at that time so I don't think Uefa had to rule on it as such.


And here is a wee nugget fromthe IFA Articles of Association by which Derry City are bound...

Article 3

12.
(a) A member may not seek directly or indirectly to transfer its Membership of the Association

Bear in mind that DCFC can still play in the LOI without having to transfer its membership.

We've done it already, a s we are currently IFA members.... :)

[EalingGreen]

Whilst a police escort, sectarian chanting, flag burning and buses being stoned aren't exactly rare elsewhere in European football, they do help build a case that it isn't exactly a conducive fit.

If such behaviour were to prevent a club playing in a certain location, then the likes of Rangers and Celtic would not be permitted to play in Scotland. or Linfield and Cliftonville in NI.
The fact is, DCFC were prevented from playing IL football at the Brandywell and were unwilling (naturally) to play "home" IL games elsewhere, so were permitted to enter the LOI instead.
There are no longer any extraordinary reasons which would prevent them participating in the IL like every other NI club; therefore the principle that clubs should ordinarily compete in a League within their own National Association's jurisdiction should prevail (imo).



Also don't ignore the 25 years experience we have built up in the EL. This is also significant.

Twenty five years experience which also (effectively) included three bankruptcies and a string of debts and unpaid creditors in their wake... Their experience in the LOI might have been happy for them, but theirs are not the only circumstances which bear considering.
In any case, DCFC were not granted their exemption on the basis that they would be happier in the LOI than the IL; rather it was because continued participation in the IL was not feasible. That latter is no longer the case.




I agree however that it is absolutely not a slam dunk, and a combination of Derry's despicable behaviour to its creditors (IL and otherwise) and the lack of goodwill between IFA and FAI after the Gibson case won't help our case.Fair point, though whatever the merits and demerits of the Gibson case, I don't think it should have any bearing on DCFC's situation; if nothing else, Gibson was a product of Institute FC, not the Candystripes...

P.S. If the FAI have their way, I suspect the admission of "Derry City Lite" to the LOI will actually be the easiest of "slam dunks". In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Delaney himself holding the steps steady under the basket...

[EalingGreen]

I don't recall that the IFA disputed or wanted to prevent Derry being able to play in the LOI but stated they would have no objections at that time so I don't think Uefa had to rule on it as such.

I could be mistaken, but I thought I read on this forum that it was made clear by UEFA (possibly with a nod to European Law?) that the IFA could not object to DCFC playing in the LOI.
Whether or when the IFA actually did object at any stage is a separate issue, though I'm suspect they may have wanted to, if nothing else out of fear that other clubs might have tried to follow DCFC's example.
Mind you, the example of Alton United of the Falls League in Belfast in the 1920's may be instructive:
"In late 1923, the FAI was admitted to FIFA on condition that it confine its operation to the Irish Free State. Thus, the Falls League was disaffiliated. In 1924, Belfast Celtic re-entered the Irish League, and the Falls League faded"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alton_United_F.C.

[EalingGreen]

Just to set you right on the historical basis to Derry City being in the LOI. There were no security reasons why DC could not have gone back to the IL. During the 80s, the then RUC, make it clear that Derry City could play IL football in the Brandywell. It was the powers to be in Windsor Park that used security issues to stop it.Quite correct that the RUC considered that the security reasons should not prevent DCFC playing home games at the Brandywell - and you might expect them to be authoritative on that score!
However, a slim majority (I think) of the other 11 IL clubs felt that security reasons made it unsafe for them to play at the Brandywell, hence DCFC's withdrawal from the League. You may consider that majority to have been misguided, even prejudiced, but their view held sway.
(Btw, do you really mean "Windsor Park" - home of Linfield - or Windsor Avenue - home of the IFA? Either way, DCFC's withdrawal was effectively forced by the Irish League (even if the IFA chose not to override them)


It's also not right to say that the IL couldn't have prevented DC joining the LOI. They could and indeed it was your very own Mr. Crosson, who was the then chairman of the Irish League, that allowed DC to join the LOI. This was agreed at an inter-league meeting that took place in Oriel Park, Dundalk in 1984.Which is it then? If the IL (and IFA) really were out to "get" DCFC (hence the Brandywell ban etc), then why would they also willingly facilitate them in their desire to join the LOI?
I'm not saying you're wrong, and different individuals within the IL held differing views, but I shouldn't be at all surprised if it was the IL/IFA's inability to object which led directly to the inter-league agreement in 1984 on DCFC joining the LOI.

[-lamb-]

During the 80s, the then RUC, make it clear that Derry City could play IL football in the Brandywell. It was the powers to be in Windsor Park that used security issues to stop it.
was it not a very close vote by the clubs themselves, rather than the ifa as an organisation, that kept derry city out (the application lost by one vote i think)?

[ifk101]

Mind you, the example of Alton United of the Falls League in Belfast in the 1920's may be instructive:
"In late 1923, the FAI was admitted to FIFA on condition that it confine its operation to the Irish Free State. Thus, the Falls League was disaffiliated. In 1924, Belfast Celtic re-entered the Irish League, and the Falls League faded"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alton_United_F.C.

No offence EalingGreen, and reading about Alton United is interesting, but there's no source for that quote on wikipedia. And as the IFA was not a FIFA member at that time I'd question if the FAI's admission to FIFA was subject to this condition especially in consideration of how loosely the make-up of the international teams was regulated back then. Indeed it could be argued that FIFA did not become actively involved in the "Irish/ Northern Irish question" until the 1950s.

[EalingGreen]

Bear in mind that DCFC can still play in the LOI without having to transfer its membership.

We've done it already, a s we are currently IFA members.... :)If I understand you right, are you saying that DCFC do not have to transfer their membership of an Association from the IFA to the FAI?

If so, then that much is true, for I'm pretty certain that any club which is located in NI has to be a Member of the IFA, whether or not they participate in an NI League. This explains why, for instance, Cardiff C and Swansea C are still both members of the FAW.

The issue in DCFC's case is twofold however (imo). Since the old DCFC/Wellvan is no more, then its membership of the IFA must presumably also have ceased to exist.
Therefore, any new club setting up in NI, regardless of the background circumstances of its incorporation, must presumably have to apply to the IFA for membership.

Thereafter, assuming that membership was approved, they presumably would have to seek permission, either from UEFA or the IFA (or both), in order to participate in a League outside the jurisdiction of their own Association.

Whether that permission is a mere formality, or would have to be substantively justified, I'm not sure. In principle, however, I feel it ought to be the latter.

[OneRedArmy]

Back in the real world, it is clear, as stated above, that the biggest issue is the IL creditors.

Whilst the IFA probably has good right to object on other grounds, politically, there is no reason to. The IL has been happy with Derry not being members and the FAI has been happy to have them. Therefore, realisitically, unless there is a reason for someone to rely on the law to object, then there is no reason to open what would be a huge political can of worms.

However, the 3 IL clubs being creditors is a very good reason to object (I'm assuming C'Ville have a legal agreement that we would pay a portion of Celtics cost, otherwise its two IL creditors). Some way has to be found to make good this debt, otherwise the IFA is almost duty bound to object to NewCo joining the FAI, on behalf of its out of pocket members.

Solve that, and the other problems solve themselves IMO.

Not that that will stop Ealing Green constructing and destructing numerous arguments to the contrary. All on his own.

[-lamb-]

If I understand you right, are you saying that DCFC do not have to transfer their membership of an Association from the IFA to the FAI?

If so, then that much is true, for I'm pretty certain that any club which is located in NI has to be a Member of the IFA, whether or not they participate in an NI League. This explains why, for instance, Cardiff C and Swansea C are still both members of the FAW.
that is correct. a club MUST be a member of the appropriate fa for it's physical location.
that club CAN play in a different fa's jurisdiction, but only with permission (ultimately sanctioned by uefa?) though they will ALWAYS remain as a member of the fa governing their physical location.
and now to the big questions......are derry city a new club? as what you state above about application and re-application would seem correct if they are.
also, derry city no longer are a member of an fai league structure due to their expulsion. isn't that correct? wouldn't any attempt at re-application to the loi require a re-application for their permission to play outside their own fa jurisdiction?

[-lamb-]

Whilst the IFA probably has good right to object on other grounds, politically, there is no reason to. The IL has been happy with Derry not being members and the FAI has been happy to have them. Therefore, realisitically, unless there is a reason for someone to rely on the law to object, then there is no reason to open what would be a huge political can of worms.
have to say i have the opposite view.
there is no genuine reason why derry city (new entity or ongoing entity) need to be in the loi anymore.
the political views or wishes of any club's fans are irrelevant to the need or lack of need for a club to play in a different jurisdiction.

[OneRedArmy]

have to say i have the opposite view.
there is no genuine reason why derry city (new entity or ongoing entity) need to be in the loi anymore.
the political views or wishes of any club's fans are irrelevant to the need or lack of need for a club to play in a different jurisdiction.1) There's obviously a genuine reason to you that they should be in the IL, otherwise you wouldn't have made the point. Laws don't make themselves and people don't hide behind them for no reason.

2) By politics, I meant football politics, not the political beliefs of our fans.

[-lamb-]

people don't hide behind them for no reason.
^not quite sure what "people" you are referring to there.
as for supporters' beliefs, i meant any to be honest, football or political (if used purely as a reason for any kind of justification).

[OneRedArmy]

^not quite sure what "people" you are referring to there.
as for supporters' beliefs, i meant any to be honest, football or political (if used purely as a reason for any kind of justification).I meant anyone who wants to prohibit a Derry City team re-joining the IL.

You are hiding behind the law in my view if your only justification for your position is "because thats the law".

Derry fans have given reasons why they don't agree with the law, but nobody has actually presented a positive reason why Derry City should go into the IL, other than "because the law says so".

Ergo bad law, apply for an exemption.

[-lamb-]

because i'd like to see derry city back in the irish league. even though i support the club that replaced them, i'd still rather they never felt they had to leave. they are a club in northern ireland and should be playing alongside the rest of the clubs from northern ireland. i just don't like the halfway house situation derry city have been in since 84/5. it seems messy to me.
an il with derry city in it would be improved, to a degree. it's another "bigger" club who might at some stage help break the stranglehold the big 2 have on the competitions and make things a bit interesting and since northern ireland is quite a small place we can't afford not to have a team with the size of derry city's fanbase waltzing off elsewhere without a genuinely strong reason. that's the very simple answer. the reasons may have been strong in the past, but i can't see how they are nowdays.

ps. are you sure that's what you meant to say?! and if so, did you mean in the present or in the past?

I meant anyone who wants to prohibit a Derry City team re-joining the IL.

[Mr_Parker]

Bear in mind that DCFC can still play in the LOI without having to transfer its membership.

We've done it already, a s we are currently IFA members.... :)
But who is "we?"

[Mr_Parker]

However, the 3 IL clubs being creditors is a very good reason to object (I'm assuming C'Ville have a legal agreement that we would pay a portion of Celtics cost, otherwise its two IL creditors). Why do you bring an element of doubt into that debt being owed?

[-lamb-]

Derry fans have given reasons why they don't agree with the law
not very convincing ones that i can see.

[Krstic]

I notice quite a few posters mention that Derry City have gone bankrupt 3 times.
I'm not saying this isn't true but I was under the impression that the last time we avoided this fate with the Celtic/Manu/Barca/Real Madrid friendlies.

???

[OneRedArmy]

not very convincing ones that i can see.It worked before!

[OneRedArmy]

Why do you bring an element of doubt into that debt being owed?Because I haven't seen an agreement that states
1) Derry City would share Celtic's cost
2) what Celtics obligations were in respect of the squad they brought over.

Obviously I can't believe a thing that our former board said, so can you confirm that we are liable based on a written contract or was it a gentlemans agreement between Derry and Cliftonville?

[-lamb-]

It worked before!
you had a better reason before

[cheifo]

I want Derry City in the League and am glad something will be sorted.

However if they go into the first Division this Season Debt free and with the advantage of larger budget than other teams (who are paying their creditors) it would be beyond ridiculous( even for our League).

[EalingGreen]

Back in the real world, it is clear, as stated above, that the biggest issue is the IL creditors.

No, the pressing issue is that of creditors. But assuming they are satisfied, it does not mean DCFC may thereafter ignore the other issues (or at least those which are inconvenient to them)



Whilst the IFA probably has good right to object on other grounds, politically, there is no reason to.Assuming that by "political" you mean the politics of football, are you saying that the IFA should have no right to look after its own interests in such matters? Preposterous, if not arrogant!



The IL has been happy with Derry not being members and the FAI has been happy to have them.Why do you assume that the members of the IL have only one opinion on this subject? At the time DCFC withdrew, there was clearly an almost even split on what approach to take.
In his history of the Irish League, Malcolm Brodie describes the process of their entry to the LOI as follows:
"Then Finn Harps' chairman Fran Fields, now FAI President, began the quest to get Derry admitted to the League of Ireland. After initial hesitation the Southern clubs gradually came to favour the idea, and with the help of some Northern teams' representatives the technical difficulties with UEFA and FIFA were overcome"
Note from my emphasis that opinions were at times divided on both sides of the border; moreover, subsequent events are bound to have altered opinions futher.



Therefore, realisitically, unless there is a reason for someone to rely on the law to object, then there is no reason to open what would be a huge political can of worms.
So what you are saying is that the IFA and FAI should both turn a blind eye to the regulatory, even legal, status of the successor to DCFC?
Isn't it that blithe willingness to play "ducks and drakes" with the Rulebook, or ignore inconvenient realities, which has plunged DCFC into crisis after crisis pretty much throughout its existence, including three times during its LOI years alone?
Or is it a case of "Hey, we're Derry, we're different, the normal Rules don't apply to us"?



However, the 3 IL clubs being creditors is a very good reason to object (I'm assuming C'Ville have a legal agreement that we would pay a portion of Celtics cost, otherwise its two IL creditors). Some way has to be found to make good this debt, otherwise the IFA is almost duty bound to object to NewCo joining the FAI, on behalf of its out of pocket members.
So you need only make good your obligations to those entities which may have the power to prevent you going merrily along your preferred path?
I guess it must be "To Hell" with any other small creditor who isn't in a position to object...



Solve that, and the other problems solve themselves IMO.
I'm glad you added the "IMO".



Not that that will stop Ealing Green constructing and destructing numerous arguments to the contrary. All on his own.
Even if I were the only poster on this Board who is interested in this aspect of the topic (and I'm not, btw), who or what gave you the right to determine what aspects of DCFC's situation may or may not be discussed in foot.ie?

The topic of debate is a prospective football club which will be based in NI, playing its home games in NI and which it seems likely will have to be a member of the IFA in NI.
Meanwhile, it hopes to play its League football in another jurisdiction, which situation is ordinarily not allowed, so that it seems it should be obliged to receive at least an acknowledgement by UEFA/the IFA that it may do so in succession to the former DCFC, if not a brand new authorisation all of its own.

So while all that may be inconvenient for you, even tiresomely so, it is still entirely relevant to the debate, therefore I will continue to debate it, as I see fit.

Moreover, I shall try to continue in the temperate and civil manner normally demanded on this forum, despite the snide and personal remarks pointed in my direction by you and certain others.

[SwanVsDalton]

Agree with ORA - without making effort to pay creditors, the IFA could potentially make things extremely difficult for both the club and FAI. All the other issues are irrelevant, since IFA have very little to gain from forcing Derry's hand if they're unwilling to rejoin (almost certainly true).

But they do have a responsibility to their clubs which could see things get more difficult.

Also those suggesting Derry could just rejoin the IL are making it sound akin to changing a lightbulb. Just because circumstances are different, are the LAW SEZ OR ELSE, doesn't make it desirable. If the IFA were to force that issue it would cause a ruckus which would make the last week seem serene.

[EalingGreen]

Agree with ORA - without making effort to pay creditors, the IFA could potentially make things extremely difficult for both the club and FAI. All the other issues are irrelevant, since IFA have very little to gain from forcing Derry's hand if they're unwilling to rejoin (almost certainly true).

But they do have a responsibility to their clubs which could see things get more difficult.
Speaking personally, I would not suggest that the IFA force DCFC to rejoin the IL "or else", at least without good reason.
But neither do I accept that they should just ignore what is going on at one of their (former?) Member clubs, either.
Outstanding debts are obviously one legitimate area of concern, but there may be others, even down to seemingly petty matters such as eg whether the new club actually joins the IFA and pays its subscription etc.
Otherwise, what would happen if, say, an accident occurred at a Derry City home game, leading to a breech of UEFA Rules, or even a Court case?
National Associations have a responsibility for games staged within their jurisdiction and even if they devolve that responsibility to another Association, the means and extent by which they do so ought to be clearly defined.



Also those suggesting Derry could just rejoin the IL are making it sound akin to changing a lightbulb. Just because circumstances are different, are the LAW SEZ OR ELSE, doesn't make it desirable. If the IFA were to force that issue it would cause a ruckus which would make the last week seem serene.Are you suggesting that a Member of one Association switching to play in another's jurisdiction is like buying a new light bulb?

What you forget is that these are not the IFA's own wee requirements which they dreamed up one day as a means of sticking it into Derry City.

Rather, these requirements stem from UEFA/FIFA, who have very good reason for adopting and enforcing them.

Now I accept that if it were tested in this case, the new Derry City may simply be 'waved through on the nod'. However, that presumption is not a valid reason for ignoring any such requirements willy-nilly (imo).

[EalingGreen]

I want Derry City in the League and am glad something will be sorted.

However if they go into the first Division this Season Debt free and with the advantage of larger budget than other teams (who are paying their creditors) it would be beyond ridiculous( even for our League).Assuming that the old (Wellvan) DCFC is no more, then their debts will go with them.

Or at least any new club cannot be held liable for them. Therefore, should that new club be allowed entry into the LOI 1st Division, then it must surely have to be on a debt-free basis.

You know, formerly I was admiring, even envious, of what the LOI was achieving in recent years (at least by comparison with the poor old IL).

But the more I think about it, the less impressed I am by what has been going on with the LOI and the more appreciative I am of the IL.

It's just a shame (imo) that DCFC fans clearly don't feel the same.

[harps1954]

So, if the 'old' Derry City is no more, does this mean that the 'new' Derry City is exactly that - a new club with no history. Does it mean that the 'old' Derry City is dead and that it's history died with it. Will it mean that the 'new' Derry City are founded/formed in 2009 and that all honours etc. are part of the 'old' Derry City - or is the 'new' Derry City just a continuation of the 'old' Derry City. Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?

[A N Mouse]

Assuming that the old (Wellvan) DCFC is no more, then their debts will go with them.

Or at least any new club cannot be held liable for them. Therefore, should that new club be allowed entry into the LOI 1st Division, then it must surely have to be on a debt-free basis.

You know, formerly I was admiring, even envious, of what the LOI was achieving in recent years (at least by comparison with the poor old IL).

But the more I think about it, the less impressed I am by what has been going on with the LOI and the more appreciative I am of the IL.

It's just a shame (imo) that DCFC fans clearly don't feel the same.

Have you not got bigger things to worry about?

Like what what day of the week to play your big christmas fixture next year? :p

[shep]

Is it just me or is anyone else a bit freaked out by the OBSESSION that the IL clubs about Derry...like get over it,they want to stay in LOI and to my knowledge nobody wants them to leave...so get over it!!!

[OneRedArmy]

It's just a shame (imo) that DCFC fans clearly don't feel the same.In fairness, flag burning, nasty atmosphere and getting the windows of fans buses put in don't tend to engender a feeling of belonging.

Personally, I'm just about done with the whole Setanta thing as the novelty has worn off after the first few seasons and we're left with meat and potatoes Northern Ireland bitterness and the usual divisions (on both sides).

It is what it is. In fairness, you can't understand what we feel as you haven't gone through 25 years of supporting a team in the LoI.

We want to stay there, and we'll do everything in our power to stay there. Feel free to speculate, cajole and construct strawmen about our return, but its clear that the will of our fans is to keep the status quo and will be directed towards achieving that.

[SwanVsDalton]

Are you suggesting that a Member of one Association switching to play in another's jurisdiction is like buying a new light bulb?

No. That's what you and some others sound like. Remember Derry went without senior football for 13 years, and, as you well know, there's a certain amount of understandable resentment about it. The decision to join the LOI was hardly taken flippantly. Likewise any decision to go back won't like be flicking a switch.


What you forget is that these are not the IFA's own wee requirements which they dreamed up one day as a means of sticking it into Derry City.

Rather, these requirements stem from UEFA/FIFA, who have very good reason for adopting and enforcing them.

Now I accept that if it were tested in this case, the new Derry City may simply be 'waved through on the nod'. However, that presumption is not a valid reason for ignoring any such requirements willy-nilly (imo).

I'm not suggesting any ignoring of requirements. The IFA could make life quite difficult in this scenario, and I believe they will if certain assurances are not made in relation to money owed to IL clubs. Obviously Derry must still gain approval from the IFA (although my understanding is this will be made easier if we hold on to our name).

Realistically, however, the IFA arn't going to prevent Derry from rejoining the LOI just because the law says they can. UEFA's position on Derry is clear, as is the FAI's and, most importantly, the Derry fans. Forcing the issue in such a blunt fashion would be naive and, more likely, become a political nightmare. Who wants that?

The precedent's been set and until Derry fans want to go back, it'll be LOI from now on. If the new entity plays ball with Dungannon et al then there's no reason for the IFA to go after Derry, other than a dogmatic adherence to jurisdiction law.

[-lamb-]

UEFA's position on Derry is clear, as is the FAI's and, most importantly, the Derry fans.
the fans are in no position of power to make ANY decisions tbh. they could huff and puff but when it boils down to it, they haven't much say.
you are basing uefa's position on their opinion a quarter of a century ago. who knows what their position would be if any club going under the name derry city had to justify that their current situation required jurisdiction exemption? certainly none of us do. we would only be guessing.

[EalingGreen]

Realistically, however, the IFA arn't going to prevent Derry from rejoining the LOI just because the law says they can. UEFA's position on Derry is clear, as is the FAI's and, most importantly, the Derry fans. Forcing the issue in such a blunt fashion would be naive and, more likely, become a political nightmare. Who wants that?

The precedent's been set and until Derry fans want to go back, it'll be LOI from now on. If the new entity plays ball with Dungannon et al then there's no reason for the IFA to go after Derry, other than a dogmatic adherence to jurisdiction law.
All of which demonstrates why (imo) by concentrating solely on the debt to the IL clubs, you and other DCFC fans are missing the point.

For if we really are talking about a new club, then the onus should not be on the IFA to show why it (club) may not play in another jurisdiction, rather it should be on the new club to show how/why it may.

Otherwise, if it is just the old club with a new makeover, then it should only be allowed to resume its former place in the LOI on the same basis as Wellvan left it i.e responsible for its debts, and with any applicable points deductions applied etc

By contrast, the significance of it being a "new" club is that it is that which would permit them to present themselves to the FAI as "debt-free". And if they are a new club, not only should they be required to justify their playing in another jurisdiction, but one might also expect their application to join the FAI's pyramid system to be on exactly the same basis as all new clubs.

You can't have it both ways (imo).

[belfastred]

Is it just me or is anyone else a bit freaked out by the OBSESSION that the IL clubs about Derry...like get over it,they want to stay in LOI and to my knowledge nobody wants them to leave...so get over it!!!

Surely Derry have gone are are to be replaced by a new Derry club based in Northern Ireland.

Surely this new Northern Ireland club will need special dispensation to join the LOI

[SwanVsDalton]

the fans are in no position of power to make ANY decisions tbh. they could huff and puff but when it boils down to it, they haven't much say.
you are basing uefa's position on their opinion a quarter of a century ago. who knows what their position would be if any club going under the name derry city had to justify that their current situation required jurisdiction exemption? certainly none of us do. we would only be guessing.

Continued granting of a UEFA license would suggest otherwise imo. All things considered, it's unlikely UEFA's position on it has, or would, change.

And if your suggesting the fans have no power, I think your well off. If the IFA were to prevent Derry from joining the LOI just because the law says they can, it would cause a political storm. It would be perceived as the second time the north's footballing powers had prevented senior football in Derry. In short, it would be a nightmare.

Derry will only return to the IL, if fans back the move. Just because the fans don't actually make the decisions, doesn't mean they don't have a huge say.

Hey! We didn't ask for 13 years in the footballing wilderness, before 25 in a different jurisdiction. But them the breaks. It don't just go away.:rolleyes:

[SwanVsDalton]

Surely Derry have gone are are to be replaced by a new Derry club based in Northern Ireland.

Surely this new Northern Ireland club will need special dispensation to join the LOI

My understanding is holding on to the current name, by purchasing from the liquidator, will be a massive help.

[belfastred]

My understanding is holding on to the current name, by purchasing from the liquidator, will be a massive help.

Even if they buy the name they will be a brand new club.

However I'll be surprised if anything does happen given the governing bodies in both jurisdictions.

[dcfcsteve]

But who is "we?"

Do I really need to spell this out ? :eek:

"We" is Derry City FC.

And before you try to get smart arse - "we" still exist, and the FAI can't remove our IFA membership.

[dcfcsteve]

The topic of debate is a prospective football club which will be based in NI, playing its home games in NI and which it seems likely will have to be a member of the IFA in NI.
Meanwhile, it hopes to play its League football in another jurisdiction, which situation is ordinarily not allowed, so that it seems it should be obliged to receive at least an acknowledgement by UEFA/the IFA that it may do so in succession to the former DCFC, if not a brand new authorisation all of its own.



EG - you're obsession continues unabatted, and is more than a little boring right now. Bang on about it all you like - DCFC won't be rejoining the Irish Legaue unless we have no other option. Whether or not that situation arises is moot, so without wanting to be rude I have no desire to have to wade through another 10 pages of drivel on what could, would, might, should happen if a very moot situation were to possibly, at some point, perhaps arise. In short - give it all a fcukin rest, will you ?

One issue that I will respond to is that quoted above. I know you're smart enough to get this point, but for some reason you seem unwilling to unable to do so.

Firstly - if the situation of clubs from one footballing jurisdiction playing in another is not normally allowed, then it is an event that is allowed to happen happen with alarming frequency ! There are up to 10 Welsh-based and Welsh-affiliated clubs playing in the Engliish system, one English-based/affiliated club playing in the Scottish system, one Scottish-based/registered team playing in the English structure until recently (Gretna), lots of English based and registerd clubs have played in Welsh competitions in recent years, and the likelihood of the 2 biggest Scottish clubs playing in England whilst based in Glasgow and affiliated to the SFA creeps gently closer year by year. And that's before we throw the likes of Leichtenstein clubs in Switzerland etc into the mix to prove that it's not just a UK pheonomenon.

Now no doubt you'll cry that all of the above have special reasons for why they should have been alowed to do so. And here's the rub - so does Derry City. Our special reasson is that we've played in that other jurisdiction for 25yrs very happily thank you. We like it there, everyone there likes us there, and no-one bar few covetous IL fans like yourselves seem to have a problem with the situation. If we weren't alowed to go back to the LOI, would Merthyr Tydfil have to go to the Welsh system next time they went bust ? Answer : No. Because you're talkign nonesense.

All of which brings us to the key point that I'm sooooooo bored of having to make on here. An EU test-case was established on the rights of football club's in one jurisdiction to play in anoather in 1994 when the Welsh FA lost a case against the Welsh exile clubs (those playing in Engalnd) in the English High Court. Since then, no association has dared to try to force a club that wants to play in a structure outside of their jurisdiction to not do so. Why - because they'd lose. Isn't it surprising how in amidst the frequent noise of the Old Firm joining the English system, you never once hear big talk from the SFA about how they'd stop it ? Well no - it's because they know they can't. So please stop bringing it up.

Boring.

[dcfcsteve]

the fans are in no position of power to make ANY decisions tbh. they could huff and puff but when it boils down to it, they haven't much say.
you are basing uefa's position on their opinion a quarter of a century ago. who knows what their position would be if any club going under the name derry city had to justify that their current situation required jurisdiction exemption? certainly none of us do. we would only be guessing.

Read my last post.

Do you share libidos with Ealing Green ?

[dcfcsteve]

But the more I think about it, the less impressed I am by what has been going on with the LOI and the more appreciative I am of the IL.



Damn straight !

It's a shame we can't have riot police called into our stadiums for matches, and medieval hand-to-hand battles between large numbers of armed fans in the middle of a football pitch at the end of our title deciding games.

Any. Remaining. Credibility. Gone..... :o

[-lamb-]

Read my last post.

Do you share libidos with Ealing Green ?
i did. interesting reading, but not sure just how relevant it is to derry city's position.
one difference i will mention is that all of those teams you mention (afaik) were all playing in another jurisdiction prior to uefa's foundation or else had no national league or fa of their own.
afaik many of those welsh teams were (not forgetting the fact wales didn't actually have a national league until the 90s, post-"derry city to loi" and at a time when uefa were starting to crack down on teams in other jurisdictions), as were the liechtenstein teams (plus no affiliated fa until the 90s), as were berwick rangers, as were gretna.

but that is not the case with derry city. they had a national league and are not a pre-uefa legacy quirk.

and this is a forum to discuss happenings, possibilities and opinions. people have every right to go on about it if they want. it's not anyone else's fault YOU don't want to hear about it tbh.

[Sam_Heggy]

Love the tag "Irish league stalkers", sums it up perfectly.

Admit it, ye (IL fans) love Derry, can't bear to be without them and want them back. Maybe ye can buy them some flowers and a box of chocolates but, it's been 30 years, ye have grown apart and let's be fair, it didn't work between ye then and it is doubtful it will now.

In all seriousness :confused:, would the IFA be so bitter as to prevent Derry continuing in the LOI? If they are, then it kind of shows that not much has changed in the north and that "catholic" clubs will still be treated as the "lesser" clubs.

[Krstic]

Why do Derry have to retain their membership of the IFA?

Do we?

C'mon Parker, I asked you this question yesterday and It's not like you NOT to have an answer.

[-lamb-]

If they are, then it kind of shows that not much has changed in the north and that "catholic" clubs will still be treated as the "lesser" clubs.
garbage.


Do we?
yes, but feel free to prove otherwise.