The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players

[Mr A]

Very true Ezeikial, especially since both clubs have made good money from transfer fees and had good crowds yet still managed to get themselves into a world of hurt.

Derry certainly managed to keep it under wraps a lot better though, but now seem to be caught in the perfect storm.

At this stage they seem very vulnerable to any creditor deciding to go for liquidation. I suspect Dungannon won't, but you never know, they really have been woefully badly treated.

[Ezeikial]

Derry certainly managed to keep it under wraps a lot better though, but now seem to be caught in the perfect storm.



You say that as though it is a positive thing (maybe not what you intended). Being up-front, open and honest about financial difficulties will attract some media flak and club-bashers but in the bigger picture it tends to pull people who care together and helps in the all-important area of trust, belief and integrity - if/when you no longer have trust in the people leading your club in a crises it makes it very difficult to support them.

[thischarmingman]

At this stage they seem very vulnerable to any creditor deciding to go for liquidation. I suspect Dungannon won't, but you never know, they really have been woefully badly treated.


Couldn't blame them if they did to be honest, it's an appalling way for our club to conduct business. What annoys me is the constant "It's nothing to worry about, it's all in control" coming from the board at the moment. Going by that article (and in the absence of any firm information from the club itself) we insisted on the confidentiality clause- you should have been on our forum the day that was announced to see the number of people queing up to have a go at Dungannon as they'd obviously lost the case.

[Mr A]

You say that as though it is a positive thing (maybe not what you intended). Being up-front, open and honest about financial difficulties will attract some media flak and club-bashers but in the bigger picture it tends to pull people who care together and helps in the all-important area of trust, belief and integrity - if/when you no longer have trust in the people leading your club in a crises it makes it very difficult to support them.

Agree completely. I think their ability to portray things as fine only makes it more likely that it'll be too late to react once the crap really does hit the fan and the problems can't be ignored any more.

[Martinho II]

Let me see now, that's one IL team they're severely p1ssing off, with Linfield another (at least until they get paid for the Setanta tickets). And I wonder what Institute might think about having "noisy neighbours"?

At this rate, the IL mightn't even have DCFC back, even if they asked! ;)


I am not in the know here Ealing Green but can you please explain why Linfield are owed money for Setanta Cup tickets?

[apollo]

Because of the tickets that linfield sent up to derry to be sold to our fans for the windsor park game 500 or so, that money should have been sent to linfield cause it was their home game but it seems our club just pocketed it.

[Flexy]

Get pat mc daid out now along with the rest of the board mc daid out mc daid out

[MariborKev]

What's the point, I can't see us getting out of this.

Time to wind up the company.

[Mr_Parker]

Dungannon seem set to push the button.

Swifts to kill off Derry City (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/local/swifts-to-kill-off-derry-city-14547891.html)

[Steve Bruce]

Dungannon seem set to push the button.

Swifts to kill off Derry City (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/local/swifts-to-kill-off-derry-city-14547891.html)

And Linfield will be knocking the door soon for our 5k as well.

[MariborKev]

SB,

Not from what I hear- organising committee will be sorting that.

[Steve Bruce]

SB,

Not from what I hear- organising committee will be sorting that.

Good stuff. At least that will be one wolf away from the door

[MariborKev]

SB,

A temporary reprieve. Time to stop wasting time and prepare for the A League.

[Mr A]

The craziest thing so far to me has been the following quote from the Journal (http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Agreement-close-in-Derry-wages.5786219.jp):


As it stands, all management and playing staff are owed eight weeks wages - understood to amount to a total of £200,000.

If that's even remotely near accurate then its incredible DCFC have survived this long.

[pineapple stu]

£25k a week?

Not the biggest wage budget the league has seen in recent times, I suppose.

[MariborKev]

Mr A, there will be plenty more craziness for you.

[EalingGreen]

Dungannon seem set to push the button.

Swifts to kill off Derry City (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/local/swifts-to-kill-off-derry-city-14547891.html)

My guess is that Swifts have concluded that there's no way for DCFC out of their financial mess, and so are striking now to get their £30k before DCFC go bust.

Otherwise if/when that did happen, they (Swifts) would risk getting "knocked down in the rush" by other creditors chasing what they're owed, esp preferred creditors (eg Inland Revenue).

And even if DCFC can somehow come up with Swifts' £30k and forestall the winding-up proceeedings, other creditors are bound to be very nervous and wondering whether they shouldn't be doing the same as Swifts.

[OneRedArmy]

My guess is that Swifts have concluded that there's no way for DCFC out of their financial mess, and so are striking now to get their £30k before DCFC go bust.

Otherwise if/when that did happen, they (Swifts) would risk getting "knocked down in the rush" by other creditors chasing what they're owed, esp preferred creditors (eg Inland Revenue).

And even if DCFC can somehow come up with Swifts' £30k and forestall the winding-up proceeedings, other creditors are bound to be very nervous and wondering whether they shouldn't be doing the same as Swifts.I'm not sure prioritisation of creditors is a big deal when there are no assets, but they are trying to force a third party to bail us out.

Its how business works, Dungannon would be failing in their own duty to their shareholders not to pursue this (unless they believe there is no prospect of securing the claim).

On the other hand, HRMC don't even need to worry about whether the assets are there, their public interest/moral hazard remit means that they can wind things up even when its not of immediate economic benefit.

[pineapple stu]

I'm not sure prioritisation of creditors is a big deal when there are no assets
Yup; liquidator gets paid first...and that's all the cash spent.

Dungannon are trying to force Derry to "find" the cash just like Cork and Shels "found" cash for the Revenue before.

[OneRedArmy]

Yup; liquidator gets paid first...and that's all the cash spent..And strictly, if there are no assets.......


Dungannon are trying to force Derry to "find" the cash just like Cork and Shels "found" cash for the Revenue before.Thats what I just said!

[pineapple stu]

Oh yeah. :o

That's what you get for using big phrases like "public interest/moral hazard remit" :p

[OneRedArmy]

Oh yeah. :o

That's what you get for using big phrases like "public interest/moral hazard remit" :pThe only reason I mentioned that is because I believe HMRC must be the elephant in the room.

Elsewhere it has been estimated that our current wage bill is approx 400% higher than that declared our YE2007 accounts.

I struggle to believe that we are stealing gate money from Linfield and allowing ourselves to be dragged into a plethora of courtrooms by Dungannon, but are up to date with our payments to HMRC.

Whatever about an unsecured, non-preferential creditor like Dungannon, HMRC is a very different animal to the Revenue Commissioners in the ROI and takes its moral hazard responsibilities much more seriously.

We absolutely will not been given the latitude that Cork have received IF we owe HMRC money.

[EalingGreen]

but they [Swifts] are trying to force a third party to bail us [DCFC] out.
That's what I was implying when I posted "...if DCFC can somehow come up with Swifts' £30k"

Anyhow, regarding your other (entirely valid) point about HMRC being "the elephant in the room", is it even possible to pay National Insurance on wages which have not been paid?

And whatever else company Tax may be owing, there is also the small matter of VAT on gate receipts, which DCFC often cite as putting them at an unfair disadvantage vis-a-vis other LOI clubs. I'd be highly surprised if those are up-to-date.

All of which prompts the question as to where exactly the money has gone from the Brandywell. I know they've got a big squad, on (presumably) big f-t wages; then again, they've also had decent crowds, Cup victories, good European runs, reasonable LOI prize money, the sale of McCourt and McGinn etc etc etc.

Or out of decency, should that question be put on hold until after the Last Rites have been delivered?

[MariborKev]

EG,

Getting answers from the board is about as easy as getting money.

At this stage, who cares where it went. It ain't there.

[Steve Bruce]

The thing with DCFC, is they are immortal, we know something will come up and save them. I can't see them not existing in a year/10 years time.

[dortie]

What's the point, I can't see us getting out of this.

Time to wind up the company.

Kev, its obvious we have serious issues, possibly in debt more than we can imagine.. but do me a favour ? Can you resist from being the doom and gloom agent, not to mention feeding the 'Derry are a disgrace', 'Poor Dungannon' and 'We despise any club that dont stick to the 65% rule' band wagon for now !

Lets see, before i get accused of supporting financial malpractice or indeed burying my head in the sand i would prefer not to speculate or debate the clubs situation 'until' we see the facts. To be honest reading this thread is really laughable considering nobody has any substantial facts or figures.

I will leave you with another rumour, there has been meetings with numerous businessmen in the City recently - Gosh, imagine all the debts were paid off or commitments made to pay, where would this thread be then ? Back to Bohs ? Will they be entitled to win the League considering their debts and lack of adherence to the wage policy ? I for one wont be stirring with a big stick then either.

Question: Any current posters on here ever been involved in real business from a football perspective, ex member of a board etc ? Curious ?

[pineapple stu]

To be honest reading this thread is really laughable considering nobody has any substantial facts or figures.
Would have thought a winding up order was a substantial enough fact. Or free transfers for all your players.

[MariborKev]

Kev, its obvious we have serious issues, possibly in debt more than we can imagine.. but do me a favour ? Can you resist from being the doom and gloom agent, not to mention feeding the 'Derry are a disgrace', 'Poor Dungannon' and 'We despise any club that dont stick to the 65% rule' band wagon for now !

Sorry, imagine wanting to treat other clubs with the respect I would like us to be treated with. Shame on me


I will leave you with another rumour, there has been meetings with numerous businessmen in the City recently - Gosh, imagine all the debts were paid off or commitments made to pay, where would this thread be then ?

I am aware of those meetings when I am passing comment.

[dortie]

Or free transfers for all your players.

Its a round of applause from my perspective, we should have got rid of 80% of them years ago. We could still win a league cup with a bunch of locals, thats as far as they got us anyway.

[pineapple stu]

Ah yes, the good old "The players deserve nothing because they lost a few games" argument. Very good.

Do you not think a winding up order is fact enough for you, if you refuse to acknowledge that players are entitled to be paid what they're told they'll be paid?

[dortie]

Sorry, imagine wanting to treat other clubs with the respect I would like us to be treated with. Shame on me
.

Thats fair enough if we knew the fine detail of each case, there is 2 sides to many of the stories out there at the minute. Wait until we get a formal answer from the Board.

The anti board syndrome is amazing considering these board 'volunteers' inherited a financial mess to begin with not to mention an overpaid medicore team. Lets not forget about the manager !

[dortie]

Ah yes, the good old "The players deserve nothing because they lost a few games" argument. Very good.

Do you not think a winding up order is fact enough for you, if you refuse to acknowledge that players are entitled to be paid what they're told they'll be paid?

Lost a few games ? Won nothing over 2 seasons, not to mention getting beat week after week at home by part-timers. I doubt our playing budget was provided on the basis of winning a league cup.

Refuse to acknowledge what ? Your going on rumour and a press release from the players themselves, again i have not been privy to our exact financial detail and will wait until i know the facts before feeling sorry for anyone. I am hoping alot of underpayment is in respect of bonuses, i cant for the life of me think we would have much to pay out ?

[MariborKev]

Wait until we get a formal answer

Glad I am not holding my breath on that one.

[Ezeikial]

Kev, its obvious we have serious issues, possibly in debt more than we can imagine.. but do me a favour ? Can you resist from being the doom and gloom agent, not to mention feeding the 'Derry are a disgrace', 'Poor Dungannon' and 'We despise any club that dont stick to the 65% rule' band wagon for now !


If MK feels "doomy and gloomy" about the situation, are you suggesting that he should not express that here? Apart from the inevitable "feeding" of club-bashers intent on point scoring, is there any other reason?

Dissenting voices who speak from their heart have far more power-to-change then those who slavish follow a party line irrespective of their true feelings. No can impose Delusion, it is always self-inflicted.



Lets see, before i get accused of supporting financial malpractice or indeed burying my head in the sand i would prefer not to speculate or debate the clubs situation 'until' we see the facts. To be honest reading this thread is really laughable considering nobody has any substantial facts or figures.


Maybe I have it wrong, but I understood a kernal point being made was that the Derry City board were being consitently economical with the facts. Speculation is inevitable if this is so.

[pineapple stu]

Your going on rumour and a press release from the players themselves
No I'm not.

Won nothing over two season? Diddums. Players definitely don't deserve to be paid so.

[OneRedArmy]

All of which prompts the question as to where exactly the money has gone from the Brandywell.Fairly simple.
Wages for Kenny, players and staff and ludicrous expenditure on away games which involved overnight stays for games 3 hours from Derry, flying to Cork etc. etc.

There's no conspiracy there.

Having King Kenny as your manager is like going out with Mariah Carey. Lots of excitement, looks pretty and you get lots of jealous looks, but its seriously high maintenance and unless you watch yourself it will cost you a fortune.

[dortie]

Dissenting voices who speak from their heart have far more power-to-change then those who slavish follow a party line irrespective of their true feelings. No can impose Delusion, it is always self-inflicted.



Totally agree, anyone who knows me well enough will inform you i have no loyalty to any Board member/Player or Manager, present or past. I will also not jump on bandwagons in regards to financial rightousness until i know the exact facts.

[dortie]

Fairly simple.
Wages for Kenny, players and staff and ludicrous expenditure on away games which involved overnight stays for games 3 hours from Derry, flying to Cork etc. etc.

There's no conspiracy there.

Having King Kenny as your manager is like going out with Mariah Carey. Lots of excitement, looks pretty and you get lots of jealous looks, but its seriously high maintenance and unless you watch yourself it will cost you a fortune.

Im 100% with you on this one ORA. Kenny seems to be exempt from the knives at present, which is beyond me.

[Longfordian]

Do you mean in terms of not delivering success or in terms of paying players too much or demanding over indulgent expenses or even all of those?. Genuine question by the way

[MariborKev]

All of them in my view.

[EalingGreen]

i would prefer not to speculate or debate the clubs situation 'until' we see the facts. To be honest reading this thread is really laughable considering nobody has any substantial facts or figures.


We now know the facts and figures of the McGinn saga, at least. If you revisit Mr. P's post of the Sunday World report (Pg. 28, #547), we heard the following directly from Jarlath Faloon of the Swifts:

"We had to wait 8 or 9 months for the original [Swifts to DCFC transfer] payment... ...and then we received no word from Derry from the minute Niall signed for Celtic. Their Chairman Pat McDaid never answered any calls and we simply couldn't get speaking to anyone from the club."

"We only found out what Derry paid for Niall when the judge ordered their legal team to disclose the figure.

"The case was settled last month in court with the agreement to pay £10,000 at once then stagger the £30,000 over 3 months, on the last day of the month" [DCFC didn't even make the first payment, despite being under a Court order]

Faloon goes on: "If Pat had phoned me and said, 'Jarlath, we're struggling here', we would have helped out, but he didn't do that, so we had to go down the legal route.

"We got nothing and heard nothing until we took the club to court"


Faloon is a solicitor, who cannot afford to get a reputation for deceiving people, especially over a matter which has come before the Courts. Therefore, since he was happy to be quoted directly in a newspaper interview, I think we can take his account as fact.

In which case, considering DCFC were refusing at one point to admit they they even owed Swifts any money, never mind pay that they were slow in paying it, the DCFC Board can have little credibility.

Moreover, we can safely assume that that this is not just a case of DCFC being eg "a bit short of money" at the moment. For whilst you can "play ducks and drakes" with players over back wages, or even with other clubs like Linfield or Swifts etc, to ignore a Court order/winding up threat for a relatively small sum like £40k, would indicate they must be very heavily in debt.

[dcfcsteve]

Totally agree, anyone who knows me well enough will inform you i have no loyalty to any Board member/Player or Manager, present or past. I will also not jump on bandwagons in regards to financial rightousness until i know the exact facts.

The facts may never actually be forthcoming.

And the fact that they haven't been for so long tells its own story.

The fact that there's deliberately zero facts being released says it all. Open your eyes - you're starting to sound like a global warming denier.

[Mr A]

Some interesting comments in this:

http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/39City-will-surive39--McDaid.5791512.jp

Trying to sort all the problems at once? Seems pretty ambitious!

[dcfcsteve]

I suspect that the LOI will now retreat from previously unsustainable spending levels, if nothing else through complete lack of choice.

The question is whether DCFC will still be around to participate in this new dispensation.


What was that you were saying about "conjecture" at the start of your post?

Where is your evidence that the IL will fall prey to this, especially with their having seen what unsustainable spending by their Southern neighbours has done?

Quite honestly, after years of certain LOI fans looking down on the IL for being unambitious and "small town" etc, it's a bit rich for someone now to suggest that they're suddenly going to start "chasing the dream" - and in the middle of a recession at that! :rolleyes:

Leaving aside the possibility of DCFC nor being allowed to compete in the LOI next season (or even being around?), it stands to reason that if the finances were sorted out so that both Leagues were properly run, on a p-t basis, then DCFC could expect to be more genuinely competitive in the IL than the LOI.
After all, haven't you been telling us for years that the standard of football in the LOI is so much higher than the IL?


Dear oh dear. You don't know much about the Glens, do you? The fact is that due to previous incompetence by the Board etc (inc trying to compete with the IFA-subsidised Linfield), the club is £600k in debt. However, this is secured against the Oval, which they own and which despite being decrepit as a football ground, is still potentially very valuable for development purposes.

Moreover, unlike eg Bohs or Pats, the Glens have been just about managing that debt for some years, chiefly by refusing to get drawn into an "arms race". (Keith Gillespie was only signed, for example, on condition that a sponsor would cover his wages. Plus they desist from prioritising Europe, despite the sneers which follow heavy defeats etc). At the same time, they are the current IL Champions (and Setanta Runners-Up), so arguably they haven't suffered too much from their economising

Anyhow, whilst there is no money even to give the place a lick of paint, never mind "go nuclear", the Board at last looks to be living within its means and should not be forced to sell the Oval until it is ready to move to an alternative (Blanchflower Park has already been identified, though I'd say it's a long way off).

And it seems you know even less about the Ports...

In fact, they already are owned by a "Sugar Daddy" of sorts, Bobby Jameson (though that's not how many people might describe him!)

Anyhow, after years of spending on players and wages to try and keep up with the "Big Two", Jameson has cut back on that, deciding instead to rebuild Shamrock Park completely, with three brand new stands, plus other improvements (new floodlights, training facilities etc).

When they screwed up with their application for the new Irish Premier League, some people feared that this would banjax the whole scheme; however, the floodlights are installed, two new Stands have been completed and the third has been deferred. Assuming this last goes ahead, Shamrock Park will arguably be better than any LOI ground bar Tallaght and possibly Turners Cross (though at least it will have a team to play in it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamrock_Park
http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/united_kingdom/northern_ireland/portadown_shamrock.shtml

The only people who appear to imagine that pigs might fly are those people at the Brandywell who have spent years imagining that the laws of (economic) gravity somehow don't apply to them...

EG - I haven't bene on here since last week, but I couldn't let your above response slip.

You're usually a fairly sensible poster, but the wooshing sensation you felt above your head when reading that last post wasn't because you'd just opened a window.

I used the likes of Glens and Ports purely as examples. It could just as easily have said 'club x' and 'club y'.

My point was that your whole City/Irish League debate was based on conjecture. So I responded to it with further conjecture. Only for you to miss the point and take it literally :o

Thankfully you've dropped the whole 'City back in Irish League' fixation anyway :)

[dcfcsteve]

Some interesting comments in this:

http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/sport/39City-will-surive39--McDaid.5791512.jp

Trying to sort all the problems at once? Seems pretty ambitious!

The most important thing in that statement is that our Chairman is alluding to the fact that we're unlikely to be in the Premier Division next year.

Is there any debt situation that would get you a First Division or A League license, but not a Premier one ?

[MariborKev]

TBF, he doesn't actually say that Steve.

[thischarmingman]

Im 100% with you on this one ORA. Kenny seems to be exempt from the knives at present, which is beyond me.

I think ORA's pithy summation of Kenny has a lot of truth. However, I'd like to point out that as manager, it's Kenny's job to push for what he thinks is best for the team; conversely, it's the boards job to tell him where the limits are and to ensure he is not overspending. At most football clubs, there's usually a compromise between the two, however uneasy it may be.

The simple truth is that if the board lack the ability to say the word "No," then they're worse than useless. Kenny can ask by all means, but as with every manager, "no" might just as easily be forthcoming as "yes" depending on the circumstances at the time of asking. It's absolutely ludicrous, for example, reading posts on DCFC chat over the last few days that have claims to the effect that Kenny put a gun to the board's head and threatened to resign if he didn't get what he wanted. If that wasthe case I'd expect the board to be able to grow a pair and answer in the negative. If they can't, I place the blame squarely in their shoulders.

From the way people have been going on the past while, you'd think Kenny was a little dictator, while the puppet government just cower behind him, unable to disagree. It's like parents who never say no to their spoilt little brat of a child, "Oh, if we do he starts crying, he says everyone else has one, how could we possibly say no?" Don't be so pathetic- grow up, take responsibility and do your job.

[oriel]

Does anyone believe they will demote Derry now ? I cant see it, but I do think both they and Cork deserve a considerable points deduction for non payment of wages.

Maybe the FAI will start them both with a minus points rule like they have in the UK for clubs in crisis?

You would imagine if Derry and Cork were two ordinary small clubs it would be a case of bye bye a long time ago, Cobh Ramblers ?

[Mr A]

Is there any debt situation that would get you a First Division or A League license, but not a Premier one ?

Technically I don't think so. But I can't see them excluding clubs from the A league seeing as they let Cobh into it.

[MariborKev]

Why would you take on the debt and go to the A League? Why not just start afresh with a new company?